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[Vangie]

I second Indianabob's comments.  Very encouraging thread all the way around.  Thank you.

Love in Christ,
Vangie

[Falconn003]

 



Rodger

[aqrinc]

Let me add a little voice to say this is, in fact, how we can get to the heart of a matter.
Everyone has something to contribute; if we Believe All Is Of GOD, then our discussions
are in HIS Direct Control. These are our meetings and sessions for teaching, learning and
Edifying the Brethren.

There are Spiritual Giants here who will help to guide and teach us what is right. There
are also late comers, like me who want and need correction but have a great zeal for
The Scriptures. Also there are those that are still confused about what happened to all
their previous beliefs and they are shaken and scared.

We have all been brought together By GOD'S GRACE; to Learn from our current Teacher
Ray. All Is Of GOD; so no reason for any to boast or feel slighted when corrected.

Before this turns into an essay just let me quote from my favourite Book:

Isaiah 1:18:
Come now, and let us reason together, said the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they
shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool.

Matthew 18:20:
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the middle of them.

Revelation: 3: 15-16
15-I have known thy works, that neither cold art thou nor hot; I would thou wert cold or hot.
16-So--because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I am about to vomit thee out of my mouth;

george .

[EKnight]

Just had two friendly JW visit me at work.  They left me with "The secret of family happiness" book.  Almost brought up Ray Franz book that Samson shared with me, which brought me to tears...

Brenda

Jehovah witnesses at work?  I thought religion was outlawed in places of employment.   

Eileen

[OBrenda]

Just had two friendly JW visit me at work.  They left me with "The secret of family happiness" book.  Almost brought up Ray Franz book that Samson shared with me, which brought me to tears...

Brenda

Jehovah witnesses at work?  I thought religion was outlawed in places of employment.   

Eileen

It might be!
They said they couldn't get people at home anymore, because people were at work.
Which isn't so true right now! 
They may be of the mind it's more important to witness than to obey the laws.  I have to admire their courage!  Which I may be in need of should they keep returning and press for me "to give answer"!
 
Brenda
 

[smeacham]

Unless God wills them to listen and hear, see and understand, don't worry about your courage.  All the courage in the world, all the preparation under the sun, all the Scriptures in the Bible will not sway them.  It's a recipe for frustration.

I'm not saying not to do it.  It's entirely possible that God WILL give them understanding.  Then, it doesn't matter if you're shaking like a leaf, caught off your guard, and haven't memorized a single scripture reference.  God's Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak, and they WILL hear you.

Isn't this liberating?!

Steven

[OBrenda]

Unless God wills them to listen and hear, see and understand, don't worry about your courage.  All the courage in the world, all the preparation under the sun, all the Scriptures in the Bible will not sway them.  It's a recipe for frustration.

I'm not saying not to do it.  It's entirely possible that God WILL give them understanding.  Then, it doesn't matter if you're shaking like a leaf, caught off your guard, and haven't memorized a single scripture reference.  God's Holy Spirit will give you the words to speak, and they WILL hear you.

Isn't this liberating?!

Steven

It truly is Steve!

 
Brenda

[saladking]

I've read your testimony with the JWs Steve.
This thread has given me more insight.

I haven't had a visit from the JWs for many years now.  The last time they came around, it was one young man.  I didn't take any booklet from him, but I did return back a booklet that I had received from them on their last visit.

Saladking

[smeacham]

From 1999 - 2002 I frequently entertained Mormon missionaries in my home, witnessing to them.  I'm kind of ashamed now, looking back - arguing for the trinity, heaven and hell, etc.  But God withheld the JW's until I was ready this time.

My honest opinion - the Mormons and JWs are not any more deceived than most of Christendom, just differently.  They're just under more control by their leadership.  The Boston Church of Christ movement too, for that matter.

Steven

[saladking]

From 1999 - 2002 I frequently entertained Mormon missionaries in my home, witnessing to them.  I'm kind of ashamed now, looking back - arguing for the trinity, heaven and hell, etc.  But God withheld the JW's until I was ready this time.

My honest opinion - the Mormons and JWs are not any more deceived than most of Christendom, just differently.  They're just under more control by their leadership.  The Boston Church of Christ movement too, for that matter.

Steven

I read that you mentioned that you were a church clergy.  It would be embarrassing for you to now go back and say, "Oh, I had it wrong, but now I see the truth."  Would they be likely to believe you?

A lot more people can see that the JW's and Mormons are deceived.  But very few see that Orthodox Christians are deceived.  It is an incredible deception.  We'd be unlikely to be able to see it without careful study of the scriptures.  My oppinion

Saladking

[smeacham]

From 1999 - 2002 I frequently entertained Mormon missionaries in my home, witnessing to them.  I'm kind of ashamed now, looking back - arguing for the trinity, heaven and hell, etc.  But God withheld the JW's until I was ready this time.

My honest opinion - the Mormons and JWs are not any more deceived than most of Christendom, just differently.  They're just under more control by their leadership.  The Boston Church of Christ movement too, for that matter.

Steven

I read that you mentioned that you were a church clergy.  It would be embarrassing for you to now go back and say, "Oh, I had it wrong, but now I see the truth."  Would they be likely to believe you?

A lot more people can see that the JW's and Mormons are deceived.  But very few see that Orthodox Christians are deceived.  It is an incredible deception.  We'd be unlikely to be able to see it without careful study of the scriptures.  My oppinion

Saladking

I thought that i HAD studied scriptures carefully.  Let's assume that I did, and that others in Christendom do to.  How do we miss it?  I'll bet that george or others can give scriptures on this (I'm at work and in a hurry).  I think we are blinded by God to the real meaning of scriptures until He humbles us sufficiently.  Once we have that childlike faith, God may open our eyes and ears to His truth.  Only then will careful study of the scriptures be of any use.  Only then can we be convinced by the foolishness of preaching, especially from a tax collector, fisherman, or even a retired roofer.

My in-depth experiences with Mormons and my less extensive experience with JWs leads me to believe they are deceived.  In both cases, I've concluded their deception is rather different than what Orthodox Christians believe it is.  You may be surprised to learn that, in some key areas, both are closer to the truth than Orthodoxy!  And, in my experience with both, the individual members tend to be much more gracious, loving, and open towards outsiders than many I've known in Orthodoxy, too.

For JW's, I think it is really the issue of "free will" and complete reliance on the Watchtower society for interpreting scripture.  However, the Watchtower doesn't do any worse a job than most Orthodox Christians - just different.

For Mormons, there is the issue of "free will" also, but it is tempered by their false belief in pre-existence.  I've found that their MAIN deception is around the issue of "priesthood authority," as well as their additional "scriptures," especially the D&C and PoGP.  I'll just leave it at that, because it's a broad subject.

By the way, concerning your comment about me having been clergy...I've been an elder in Calvary Chapel, which was a teaching/preaching position.  I've been very active in several other denominations.  I've been a street evangelist.  I'm also an ordained minister, but have never "had a church of my own" (THANK GOD!).  These days I mainly use the fact for shock value or self-deprecating humor.  I'll also perform the odd wedding from time to time.

And about being embarrassed...not at all.  The better word is "ashamed."  I would be, and am, ashamed of the falsehoods I've taught people, even though I believed they were true myself.  I wouldn't hesitate to tell them "I had it wrong," or about the truth God's shown me, because I am neither embarrassed or ashamed by the Gospel of Christ.

I would not feel wronged at all if I was the last in line to meet my Savior, and that includes being behind my Mormon and JW friends and acquaintances.

Steve

[aqrinc]

Hi Steve,

Yes there are many Scriptures that show why and by Whom The Leaders in The Church (Babylon) are blinded.

Mat 13: 10-17 (KJV)

10  And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11  He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12  For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13  Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14  And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16  But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17  For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.


Below is the best summation in one place for Teaching and Admonition by L Ray Smith:

"You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!"

Excerpt from: http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm


VESSELS IN A GREAT HOUSE

Listen carefully, for these prophecies are not directed toward the world of unbelievers, but to the Church of God:

"But in A GREAT HOUSE there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth and some to honor, and some to dishonor" (II Tim. 2:20).

Just what is this "great house" of which Paul speaks? Let Paul answer:

"But if I tarry long, that you may know how you ought to behave yourself in the House of God which is The Church of the Living God, the pillar and ground of the truth" (I Tim. 3:15).

The Apostle Peter tells us that this House of God definitely needs judging:

"For the time is come that JUDGMENT must begin at The House of God…" (I Pet. 4:17).

If the "House of God" needed judgment in the days of the Apostles, how much more judgment does it need today? And what did Paul prophesy would happen in this "GREAT House" in our day, "in the LATTER TIMES?" Let’s read it from the source:

"Now the Spirit speaks expressly, that in the LATTER TIMES some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils; speaking LIES IN HYPOCRISY; having their conscience seared with a hot iron" (I Tim. 4:1).

And this:

"This, know also, that IN THE LAST DAYS, perilous times shall come. For men shall be lovers of their own selves, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy, without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent [without self-control], fierce [brutal], despisers of those that are good, traitors, heady [reckless], high-minded [haughty], lovers of pleasures more than [rather than] lovers of God; having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away… EVER learning, and NEVER able to come to the knowledge of the truth" (II Tim. 3:1-7).

Some Christians naively believe Paul and all these prophecies are speaking of the whole world, of mankind in general. Oh no they aren't: It is not the atheistic heathen world which has "departed from the faith," who "blaspheme God," who have a "form of godliness," or who have "turned away from such." Oh no. It is the HOUSE OF GOD that has done these things and continues to do them.

For sure Paul didn’t say that the vessels in this great house would wax "better and better." Let Paul answer again by continuing his prophecy in II Tim. 3. We ended with verse 7, so let’s pick it up again in verse 8:

"Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do THESE [these vessels of dishonor in God’s House] also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the truth. But they shall proceed [Gk: ‘increase, advance, grow’] no further [Just as Jannes and Jambres could resist God only so far and no further, so too, will these corrupt-minded reprobates in God’s House cease to deceive God’s church, when God makes all secrets known to all]: for their folly shall be manifest unto all, as theirs [Jannes & Jambres] was." (II Tim. 3:8-9).

Notice Paul’s stern warning:

"For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them" (Acts 20:29-30).

I decided to write this paper after receiving thousands of angry emails condemning my tone of writing and teaching, all from Christians mind you. I was reminded just yesterday by email that I should not be repeating Peter’s words when He said, "…there shall be false teachers among you, who privily [smuggle] shall bring in damnable heresies…" (II Pet. 2:1). I was told this phrase carries a different meaning today from when Peter spoke it. Many warn me of dire consequences if I continue. I am regularly cursed with far worse hard-core, lewd four letter words of filth than I have ever heard in my four years in the U S Army, and these from self-proclaimed followers of Jesus Christ—CHRISTIANS!

The purpose of this paper is not to defend my style of writing, (God only knows that I do not profess to be a scholar, nor a polished orator, nor a man of eloquent words), but to rather see how Jesus really taught in public, to the masses, and particularly to the lying, hypocritical Scribes and Pharisees. We will examine whether Jesus Christ Himself did indeed use sarcasm, exaggeration, caricature, satire, irony, and anger to get across His Gospel Message.

WHO IS IT THAT WILL GET "WORSE & WORSE?"

"Yes, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution. But EVIL MEN AND SEDUCERS [Gk: ‘imposters’] SHALL WAX [grow] WORSE AND WORSE, deceiving, and being deceived" (II Tim. 3:13).

And just who is it that grows "worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived?" The men and women of the world? The pagans and heathens? Is this what Paul means? Of course not. These are the leaders of the Church.

"Preach the word; [the WHOLE Word of God]; be instant in season, out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine [Who? The world? The pagans? The atheist? Why they have never had sound doctrine in the first place] but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables" (II Tim. 4:2-4).

The heathen nations of the 21st century are not "turning away from the truth unto fables." They have never as nations had the truth.

Notice also Peter’s stern warning regarding what was happening in the past in his time, and what was prophesied to continue until our time and beyond:

"But there were false prophets [a ‘prophet’ can mean one who speaks in behalf of God] also among the people, even as there shall be [future] false teachers among you [and among US], who privily shall bring in [Gk: smuggle in] DAMNABLE HERESIES, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And MANY shall follow their pernicious [destructive] ways; by reason of whom the way of the truth shall be evil spoken of [Gk: ‘blasphemed’]" (II Pet. 2:1-2).

george.

[judith collier]

Anyone, especially you George, have you seen my reply ro geneologies and ? I am like a kid, who got something and I want to share it. Judy

[aqrinc]

Hi Judy,

check your PM.

george.