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Author Topic: free will and God?  (Read 2744 times)

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lovepeace

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free will and God?
« on: January 26, 2009, 05:12:52 PM »

i had this posted in testomonies and prayers category update on surgery...
i was wondering if any of you could help me with this situation...

ok....now i have read all of your responses of my question etc.
what i do not understand is this concept of free will and God not having a part of it.

ill explain further...
i had a philosophy class last semesrer in college and i learned SO much! a fantastic teacher taught me the differences and he let me make up my own mind whether or not i believe in free will or not. he even taught the concept of cause and effect (which, in fact, is one of my favorite topics to learn about   )
any way...now some of you and also people i have spoken to say that man/women have no free will, but then some say that God has no part in it and He lets people make up their mind whether to sin or not.
THEN DOESNT THAT MEAN THEY HAVE FREE WILL?
i do not completely understand. i have read so much about this and been taught so many different things.
i do not believe that people have free will. i believe that everything has a cause. you do something because something or even someone caused you to do so.
for example: i came to this website because my boyfriend introduced it to me and i realized that the people on it could possibly understand me and hopefully not get frustrated with me when i tell them i do not understand things.
that is a cause and the effect is, well what i am doing at this moment. 
so im just confused because God has no say in free will, He made people to the point where they can make up their own minds and if they decide to sin well then they do. BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt? why did He want me on this site? etc etc...
free will, i have learned, is a complicated subject and i am doing my best at trying to figure out exactly what i believe now. because now people are saying God has nothing to do with it, but HE KNOWS it is going to happen, so does that not mean He planned it? He wanted it to happen?
i hope i didnt confuse anyone, i tend to that when i type and type.

thank you for listening and God bless,
Chanelle
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Marky Mark

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2009, 05:32:10 PM »

Chanelle, Hello.

Quote
i hope i didnt confuse anyone, i tend to that when i type and type.




  Ray has put a lot of effort and research into this very question that you ask .Lord knows I could not answer better than Brother Ray :). May I make a polite suggestion and ask of you to please start with http://bible-truths.com/ for a full realization of  Spiritual truth to your inquiry.

  Peace...   Mark
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smeacham

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2009, 06:09:45 PM »

My experience with philosophy is that it doesn't give you answers.  It simply gives you more questions.

My conclusion is that it isn't worth learning.  Plate, Aristotle, Wittgenstein, Kantward, and Berkeley for example - what does reading their works really teach us?  There is no core body of knowledge to be learned.  All you learn is what certain individuals said about various things.  Most of the debate revolves around the definitions of words.  Do we have "free will?"  It depends on what you mean by "free."

Here, maybe I'll save somebody thousands of dollars and hours of effort:  The real lesson to learn from philosophy is that that the concepts we use in everyday life are fuzzy, and break down if pushed too hard.

So, avoid philosophy.  For something useful, focus on something much more precise.  Math, for example.  Or, even better, the Bible - but read all the words.

Steve
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aqrinc

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2009, 06:32:42 PM »



Hi Chanelle,

Did you read only the excerpt or click on the link to Ray's paper. Coupled with your studies this
should be a no brainer for you; difference is here, you have an answer that is an Absolute.

Read: LOF Myth Of Free Will Exposed- Part D. http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

george. ???



Hi Chanelle,

You can be sure that if He Was (not there) you are (not here). Yes our Prayers
for you were said; but God Only Decides when we die. Do not take my word for it;

Have your Bible with you to verify The Scripture Quoted if unsure still.

Read: LOF Myth Of Free Will Exposed- Part D. http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

Excerpt: The Myth of Free-Will Exposed


EVERYTHING HAS A PRECISE APPOINTED TIME

God Almighty is responsible for everything and He brings about everything only at its precise "APPOINTED SEASON AND TIME." Let's read it:

"To every thing there is a season and a time to every purpose under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

The implications of this verse are staggering. The very foundation of human psychology and theology crumbles under the weight of this declaration of God’s Word. This is undoubtedly one of the ten most profound Scriptures in the entire Bible.

If we are to be honest and believe this verse, then we must concede that absolutely NOTHING is left out God’s profound declaration except man’s anti-scriptural theory of "free will."

The word "season" in the KJV is translated from the Hebrew word, z[e]man, and is defined in Strong’s Hebrew Dictionary as: "APPOINTED season, occasion, time." And "purpose" is defined as: "pleasure, desire, matter." Sometimes rendered as "purpose" or "event."

Here’s a second witness to this grand declaration:

"Because to every purpose [matter or event] there is time and judgment..." (Ecc. 8:6).

And a third witness:

"…for there is a time there for every purpose and for every work" (Ecc. 3:17).

Here are a couple translations that make this verse a little clearer:

"...for He has appointed a time for every matter, and for every work..." (The New Revised Standard Version).

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

There is no wasted motion in God's creation, purpose and plan. Everything has an appointed time, and everything includes: "every purpose, every work, every matter, every event, and every deed." Where pray tell does "free will" fit into all this? It doesn’t. It clearly DOESN’T. Man has no free will. There is no such thing as free will. It is but the phantom of an "obscured heart" as we learned in Part C from Ecc. 3:11.

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"

Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?

Man’s will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God’s preordained plan and purpose.

Christendom and her fabled doctrine of "free moral agency" is trapped and completely book-ended between:

[1] "To every thing there is a season [appointed time],and a time to every purpose [matter or event] under the heaven" (Ecc. 3:1).

AND:

[2] "I know that, whatsoever God does...NOTHING can be put to it, nor ANYTHING taken from it: and GOD does it" (Ecc. 3:14).

Someone might see a contradiction in God’s teaching. If the two above Scriptures are true, then why does God warn against "adding to or taking away from His word?" Well, like everything else that is beyond the realm of carnal comprehension, all of these things too, have been foreordained and pre-determined to happen only at their "APPOINTED TIME." God has appointed a time for false prophets to add and God has appointed a time for false prophets to take away from His word.

Thanks Be To GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ for All we have and are. ;D

george. ;D
 

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR ALL THOSE WHO PRAYED FOR ME!

my surgery went well.
i am still very soar and a little drowsy, but it will go away in time.

thank you again for your prayers and gracious words.
im pretty sure God heard them and was there with me during my surgery.

at least, i hope He was.

thank you and God bless,
Chanelle

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daywalker

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 07:37:25 PM »

Hello Chanelle,

free will:  The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will

choice: the act of choosing or selecting



We all make choices every day. This, however, is not 'free will'. Every choice [effect] that we make has a 'reason' [cause], and when an effect has a cause,  it could not be otherwise. [as I'm sure you know]
But don't expect to fully comprehend this right away, as simple as it sounds reading it, it's very hard to fully understand.

God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own. All God has to do is 'cause' a pretty woman wearing a mini skirt to walk by a man and he will look, and lust over her completely on his own. God created us as carnal beings, as Ray likes to say, "we are sinning machines". That's what we do best! But when a man is able to hold back, and not lust over that pretty girl, it is because God has given them that ability, because all good things come from God. [James 1:17] Living righteous is spiritual, and therefore requires Spiritual Strength. [God is Spirit -- John 4:24]

Since God is the Creator of all, He is also the ultimate 'cause' of everything. God doesn't just sit and watch mankind, He is actively working all the time. When a person decides they want to give their heart and life to God, serve Him, and learn to become righteous, they make that choice. But only because God has brought about the circumstances to bring them to that decision.


May God guide you,

Christopher.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 07:42:57 PM by daywalker »
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mharrell08

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 07:44:57 PM »

Hello Chanelle,

free will:  The power of making free choices that are unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will

choice: the act of choosing or selecting



We all make choices every day. This, however, is not 'free will'. Every choice [effect] that we make has a 'reason' [cause], and when an effect has a cause,  it could not be otherwise. [as I'm sure you know]
But don't expect to fully comprehend this right away, as simple as it sounds reading it, it's very hard to fully understand.

God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own. All God has to do is 'cause' a pretty woman wearing a mini skirt to walk by a man and he will look, and lust over her completely on his own. God created us as carnal beings, as Ray likes to say, "we are sinning machines". That's what we do best! But when a man is able to hold back, and not lust over that pretty girl, it is because God has given them that ability, because all good things come from God. [James 1:17] Living righteous is spiritual, and therefore requires Spiritual Strength. [God is Spirit -- John 4:24]

Since God is the Creator of all, He is also the ultimate 'cause' of everything. God doesn't just sit and watch mankind, He is actively working all the time. When a person decides they want to give their heart and life to God, serve Him, and learn to become righteous, they make that choice. But only because God has brought about the circumstances to bring them to that decision.


May God guide you,

Christopher.


Glory to God...excellent post; well said  :)



Marques
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aktikt

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 08:54:55 PM »

I think the point of confusion is this statement:

Quote
"God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own."

True, God doesn't force us to sin, but he does cause it.    As Ray has said, Who made testosterone anyway?
God has subjected man to testosterone, but it is still man who sins not God.   There is no free will about it.  We are caused to sin ultimately by God who subjected us to the testosterone.

See the below link
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm;

The below paragraph is an excerpt from Ray's letter to Dr. Kennedy linked to above.

Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.

Hope this helps,
Josh




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Shakespeare-There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.

daywalker

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 09:06:02 PM »

I think the point of confusion is this statement:

Quote
"God doesn't make anyone sin, because He doesn't have to. We sin on our own."

True, God doesn't force us to sin, but he does cause it.    As Ray has said, Who made testosterone anyway?
God has subjected man to testosterone, but it is still man who sins not God.   There is no free will about it.  We are caused to sin ultimately by God who subjected us to the testosterone.

See the below link
http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm;

The below paragraph is an excerpt from Ray's letter to Dr. Kennedy linked to above.

Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.

Hope this helps,
Josh


Hello Josh,

I also said this:

"God created us as carnal beings,..."

And in the next paragraph:

"Since God is the Creator of all, He is also the ultimate 'cause' of everything. God doesn't just sit and watch mankind, He is actively working all the time."


Respectfully,  ;)

Daywalker.
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Patrick

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2009, 02:28:45 AM »

Quote from: lovepeace

BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt?



Chanelle, your question could also be asked in the form of, if God knew the terrorists were going to fly those planes into the Twin Towers, why did He not stop it?

Ray's answer from an email on the home page; Evil Serves Many Noble Purposes:
...
dude..calm down!!! jeez...your God loving isn't exactly helping me...:\ and if god exists why didn't he save all those people that were praying to him in the twin towers?

[Ray Replies]

Dear Nameless:

Thank you for your email and questions.

There are billions and billions of people that God has not yet saved. Your questions is more basic than just why didn't God save those in the twin towers.

All of such things are examples of evil. God created evil for a purpose. So naturally He will not make evil inoperative at every turn in the road or there would have been no purpose in creating it in the first place.

Evil serves many noble purposes. One of which is a back drop for good. Good cannot be understood or certainly not appreciated without a backdrop of evil. Evil makes good appear even better and is certainly much more appreciated.

Evil is necessary for the production or development of good.  You cannot name one virtue that is not in some way produced by the resistance to some form of evil.

All knowledge is matter of contrast and relativity. One cannot know what light is unless he has been acquainted with darkness.  One has no conception of large unless he also knows of things that are small. Up is only up in relation to down. Life is the opposite of death, etc. To understand and fully appreciate all of these things, there are many necessary experiences to go through. God creates and puts us through these many things in the development of godly character.

All of these evils can be likened to the creation of a beautiful building. Ugly scaffolding is necessary in the construction of this building. It is ugly and serves no purpose other than in the actual construction of the building. When the building is completed, the scaffolding is torn down and discarded. It serves no further purpose. All evil will be discarded one day. And the last enemy, DEATH, will likewise be ABOLISHED FOR EVER (I Cor. 15:26) and God will "ALL in All"!!!

May God be with you and grant you wisdom and understanding.

Sincerely,

Ray

...

Several others you may want to read are;
Is God To Blame For All This Suffering?,
Does God Force Us To Sin?,
Does God Tempt?


Isa 55:8  For my thoughts are not your thoughts: nor your ways my ways, saith the Lord.
Isa 55:9  For as the heavens are exalted above the earth, so are my ways exalted above your ways, and my thoughts above your thoughts.

Isa 55:10  And as the rain and the snow come down from heaven, and return no more thither, but soak the earth, and water it, and make it to spring, and give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isa 55:11  So shall my word be, which shall go forth from my mouth: it shall not return to me void, but it shall do whatsoever I please, and shall prosper in the things for which I sent it.



« Last Edit: January 27, 2009, 02:30:29 AM by Patrick »
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lilitalienboi16

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2009, 03:18:50 PM »

Hello Chanelle,

You have a very curiouse mind indeed which is a good thing as most do not question the things they have been taught nor the everday things they believe to be true.

You ask a question that many restle with when first coming to the topic of free will.

Free will, indeed is the ability to make a choice without any cause and as you have stated; you do not believe this to be true. Your confusion stems from the fact that; when we commit sin and than are told that it was not God that made us sin. How can than we not have free will? If God didn't cause it than we sinned of our own free will? Right?

Well the answer lies in the very definition of the word "free" will. We indeed have a will, we want to accomplish things, we want to do things, we do - do things. Yet the mere want of doing something does not make that will a "free" one. For we are caused as you said, into doing things.

In this life God is the ultimate cause of all things because He started it all. How could He not be? Yet when it comes to sin God created us so spiritually weak that we are absolutely incapable of doing any good without His spirit. Every good thing is from God. So take God away chanelle and you are left with darkness in man. Let me give you an example you can understand;

The earth has day and light because of the sun. Yet what happens when you take away the sun? The earth becomes dark. It's not that the earth ever had light on it's own but that the sun was creating the light for the earth. Well now apply that to yourself. You are the earth and God is the sun. You never had any light on your own it was because of God that you felt the light and the warmth of this light. Take God away and you are just as dark as the earth itself without the sun.

So when it comes to sinning we are the same. Take God away and we crumble so fast it's disheartening. Yet! We have hope because God will never leave us like this. He will never abandon us.

Ray uses the example of a bible and pornography. Put a bible infront of a man and a porno. If no one is around which do you think the man will open first? The bible or the porno? Well... it doesn't take a genious to figure this one out, just an honost one. Why does the man choose the porno though? Because it takes spiritual strength to do what is good and man is spiritualy weak. So unless God causes the man to do good He will fall flat on his face. Does this mean God causes us to do evil? No! Ultimately He is the cause becasue He created us but He takes full responsibility for that because He died for our sins. Not even you or I died for our sins but God did. So He is showing responsibilty but we wills till be held accountable for our actions in the end.

So to summerize for you; God brings us to a point in our lives where we actualy want to do what we do. [His responsibilty by dieng for our sins] So when we sin, We have been brought to this very point in our lives by God [His responsibilty] yet remember that we WANT to do it because God does not FORCE us to sin. So when we finaly SIN it is WE who are indeed sinning because we actualy WANT to and therefor OUR accountibility and not Gods!

I hope and pray i have spoken right by God for you on this mater as it is a very difficult one to understand and without Gods spirit almost impossible. I do still look for re-assurance in my understanding of it.

God bless,

Alex

P.S. I know this is one of those long posts you don't like to read but this subject is a HUGE one and nothing shorter than this could have been done. I wrote as i felt inspired =]

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Tess

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #10 on: January 28, 2009, 12:09:16 AM »

I read a lot but have never posted, but I just had to say your earth and sun analogy was beautiful. It helped my understanding and touched me deeply. Thankyou 
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Kat

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Re: free will and God?
« Reply #11 on: January 28, 2009, 01:57:01 PM »



Quote from: lovepeace
Quote
BUT...i have always believed that God has a say in what we do. as in, He KNEW that the little boy was going to be pushed, He KNEW that i was going to go on this website, etc etc...i can go on forever. BUT if God knew that these things were going to happen, why did He let it? WHY would He want that boy to be hurt?


I want to continue with the question from lovepeace that Patrick gave an email to answer.  Here is an excerpt from 'The Myth of ‘Free Will’ Exposed' part 15-c.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html --------------------------------------

Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.

Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?

Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.

I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?

You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!

And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions?   Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?

The American Heritage College Dictionary:

“ allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”

“permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.

Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?

Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation!   They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!

Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?

You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.

So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!

I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.


                             GOD THE CREATOR OF EVIL

“That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside Me. I am the Lord, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I made peace [good], and create evil: I the Lord do all these things” (Isa. 45:6-7).

Notice that God did not create light to shine IN the darkness. No, God “created” darkness, itself. Darkness is not just the absence of light. Darkness was created by God. It does not “naturally” exist independent of His creating it. This, like everything else in the Bible, is a parable. Mankind is spiritually in “darkness.”   And it is a very painful thing to come out.

“For God, Who commanded the light to shine out of darkness [not ‘in’ darkness], has shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.” (II Cor. 4:6).

Before we go further, it is necessary for those who have never seen it proven, that it is God Who is the Creator, User, and unltimately, the Destroyer of evil.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is such a hard concept but something I think all believers need to really understand.  God has made this world exactly as it is and to say anything is happening contrary to His will, means that He is not sovereign.  Quote from above, "God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will."

The human race is right now in the very beginning, at the very start of being formed into the image of God.  We have been brought into being in this fleshly carnal form, "in spiritual darkness" first.  We are experiencing and going through the very painful ordeal of knowing evil.  This is the backdrop we all need before we can move on to further development.  This is what this present age and most of the next age is for, only a very few are chosen out to move on to further development now and only after experiencing their share of evil first.  But God has not just cast us into this "evil experience" to let us suffer without parameters, no.  He made us as we are and has set the parameters of what we can feel and even what we understand as pain you see and there is just so much He will let anyone suffer, because we will die.  And this life is not only about suffering, God has mercy on us, so we get to experience good too.

Here is an analogy.  If say I have a child with some kind of physical defect, and so I find out about a medical procedure that will correct it.  Knowing that the procedure will be painful and difficult, I still make all the arrangments, take my child there and set by and wait while it is going on.  My child might not even wanted to do this, they didn't bring it on themselves and I didn't just allow it to happen, I brought it about, I made it happen, knowing that the out come was going to be worth it.

All this suffering and evil is so we will 'know' what it is by personal experience.  That is the best way we can understand it, as the backdrop, so then we can be taught righteousness.

Rom 8:18  For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
v. 19  For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.
v. 20  For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;
v. 21  because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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