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[WhoAmI]

Since people get married for many reasons, money, they think they are in "love", etc If someone then gets married, are they now free to lust and fulfill that lust with that person they married? I ask because I don't get the idea that if people are married then it is ok to have sex. But if they are not married then it is supposedly fornication. How does being in a legal binding override a spiritual concept? We are told not to lust or even to think it, but we know many couples have sex over carnal feelings. One couple may be in a higher love than another but not married, where as another couple is married to just help each other out financially but they get the benefits of avoiding sin even when commandment is broken? What are your thoughts.

[aqrinc]

WhoAmi,

Have you read this paper by Ray yet or listened to the Audio, it answers most if
not all the questions you have posed.

george.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.msg45929.html#msg45929

Excerpt from: Feb. 2007 Bible Study


                                    WHAT IS MARRIAGE?

                         [Is a License and a Ceremony Required?]

I’m going to talk about what constitutes marriage, not the marriage state of how to have a happy marriage, that’s a subject for another Bible study.  But we are going to talk about specifically, in detail, what is marriage. 

Can you just marry yourself?   Just say, ‘well we live together and I kind of think of you as my wife.  And she says, yea I kind of think of you as my husband.  So I guess we’re married.  We don’t need a piece of paper.  What’s a piece of paper?  People who get pieces of paper get divorces and that’s nothing.  We love each other and we are more married than they are married.’

Sounds good?  There’s not much truth to it though and I will talk about it.

What is marriage?  Is a license and a ceremony required?  I want somebody to give me some idea of what marriage is.  What is the meaning of the word?
[Two people living together, sharing their lives]  No.
[ A union, created by God]  Closer. 
[A mutual commitment]  No, partly, but no. 

It is not what most people think and people will be dumb founded when they find out what the Bible has to say about marriage.  I’m going to give you a little secret, the marriage state, that is the institution of two people being married together, sharing their lives together, living in a home producing children, so on and so forth, of that the Bible has virtually nothing to say.  Yet the word marriage or marry is in there over and over and over and over……but not the things I just said.

[Is it two flesh becoming one flesh]  No, not even close.  You would think so though, wouldn’t you.  Isn’t that part of it?  I mean Christ Himself said that, right.  It’s part of it, but it does not fit the definition of marriage though, at all.  Not even at all.
[A contract]  Now we are getting closer.  A contract.  Marriage is a contract. 

Now maybe a more important question would be, is love required to make a marriage?  [No]  Right on, no.  Love does not even enter into the definition of a marriage.  It does not.  Proof……how many arranged marriages have been in the world?  Millions.  Do most of them when they get an arranged marriage, love each other?  They don’t even know each other. 

Does sexual union have to be involved, in the definition of a marriage?  [Unless it is consummated, you can annul it, right?]  How long do you have to do that?  Two years, eight years?  Now we are putting time limits on it.

Sex and love has nothing to do with the definition of marriage.  Nothing to do with it and I’m going to prove it to you.  So What is marriage?  We are going to find out.  Get ready for a revelation, because this may not all be what you think it is.

I received an email it contains that this person is living with this person and it says, ‘we’re married.’  Here’s what he says:

“I can’t believe you would call that sinful living.
Maybe Babylon is right; we do need to have a physical circumcision and a physical water baptism and a physical wedding ritual etc… etc… etc… everything’s physical, it’s all physical.  Perhaps even God’s law is physical and it matters not whether you truly love your wife or not, as long as you got that physical marriage license, you’re good to go.  And there is no ‘law of the land’ that says it’s illegal for two people to live together without having a marriage license.” (Ray’s comment - Is there a law that says you can’t do that?  That sounds good, I mean the guy is spouting off all this worldly wisdom.  Of course I have a little statement in my notes here too: Likewise there’s no ‘law of the land’ that says when two people live together that they are LEGALLY husband and wife, either, is there. [What about common law?] It doesn’t, you can claim it sometimes, but the powers that be do not make you husband and wife.  They do not.).  “Maybe in the dark ages, and OT but not now, not in the U.S. nor Europe or any other civilized society.  Perhaps in the middle east, but they’re still physically stoning people.  So I wouldn’t want to follow that ‘law of the land’.”
“God declared who is man and wife, not some magistrate or a piece of paper.”  (Ray’s comment - sounds good, I mean he’s just really nailing it, isn’t he?  Wrong pale face.  Are magistrates and pieces of paper worthless and ungodly?  It sounds like it from his perspective that they are.)  “I know Adam and Eve were husband and wife, that’s why I used them as an example of how you can be married in God’s eyes under God’s Spiritual law without having a physical wedding ritual.”

Oh really.  And he knows for a fact that Adam and Eve had no wedding?  He knows that for a fact?

george.

[Heidi]

Falling in love is a natural process but with this there is also a falling out of love.  Once a person decides to love someone, i.e. saying "I love you".....you are committing yourself to having to work at the relationship.  It is a commitment.  

Lusting after someone is completely different from loving someone or being "in love".  The bible is very clear on this.....
James 1:15  "Then when lust has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death."  

and again

1 John 2:16 "For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world."

When two people get married, they become one....
Matt 19:6  "So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate."
and again....Mark 10:8  "AND THE TWO SHALL BECOME ONE FLESH; so they are no longer two, but one flesh."

Just my opinion
Heidi

[WhoAmI]

If falling in love is a natural process then lust is involved. Desires of flesh do bring people together. They may end up loving each other but still it is involved. And the word "love" is so over used. Can a mortal actually love to the degree that we like to dream of. Humans are selfish and desire driven creatures. Love can't be measured by a time span or a marriage cermony. Just as it can't be discounted because of lack of time or no marriage cermony. In human terms that is. Man doesn't operate on his own and is subject to outside forces. The two become one is spiritual and that is what I have come to the conclusion that all this marriage, fornication, adultery, divorce is about. The highest it being about our oneness with God. All the scriptures of fornication, adultery which are dealing with things that can't have physical sex show me that they are spiritual. If I can truely love then I think I would operate properly in the physical sense as well. Where as you can do everything like Saul with great zeal and live by rules and yet be no where spiritually.

I am glad Ray has written some about it. He thinks and it challenges us and religion to take another look.

[aqrinc]

Heidi, WhoAmi,

This is a good time to read this paper before coming to a conclusion.

Another excerpt from:  WHAT IS MARRIAGE?

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.msg45929.html#msg45929

But all civilized cultures have that and it is an ordained institution of God supported in both the Old and New Testaments.  And although ordained of God, marriage is more physical than spiritual, from a scriptural point of view.  Boy I can see the stones coming for saying that, but it’s true.  We’re talking about the definition of the word, what the word actually means.  If marriage was a spiritual institution, instead of a carnal institution.  Why do 50% of those getting married divorce?  What is spiritual about that?  If all the people got married into a spiritual relationship, there would hardly ever be a divorce.  But it’s not.  People go into marriage with a carnal mind, with physical expectations. 
Now most couples who get married do love each other, I’m not saying they don’t, I’m just saying it’s not a spiritual union.  They love each other and they have sex together, but the truth of the matter is neither one is required to define what a marriage is, neither one.  Just because your married to someone doesn’t mean that you love them, right.  Does anybody agree with that?  It doesn’t mean you love them just because you are married and just because you love somebody doesn’t mean your married to them, am I also right.

george.

[Beloved]

Who am I,
 How does being in a legal binding override a spiritual concept.
I am not quite sure of your question, it seems to me confusing. You are trying to mix carnal things with the spiritual.  Marriage is only a shadow of a spiritual concept...the physical is temporay and spiritual is noncorruptible.

A spiritual covenant is holy and marriage is only the shadow, Most things in the physical like the tabernacle tent of Moses will be seen as shabby imitations

If I can truly love then I think I would operate properly in the physical sense as well. Where as you can do everything like Saul with great zeal and live by rules and yet be no where spiritually.

Where do you ever get the concept that you are in anyway going to attain spiritual state while you are in the flesh?  it is a fundamental teaching of Ray. He shows us in the scriptures that we are in the process of being saved.  You are Saul ....like we are....we are in a continuing state of overcoming ....one step at a time through grace.

beloved

[Falconn003]

If falling in love is a natural process then lust is involved. Desires of flesh do bring people together.

N U T S !!  unsalted at that.

Can you even give the readers an insight, to where and how these ideas came to be birth from your heart and mind, Who taught you this, or how did you reached this conclusion on your own ?? 

Be forthright and say from where are you coming up with these carnal ideals ??

And no Scripture, wonder why that is ??

Rodger

[Ninny]

 
whoami,

I am with Rodger on this one. WHERE did you get these ideas? Someone has really given you a warped view of life!
Hope you get peace on this. It is hard to build a lasting, trusting relationship with these kinds of thoughts going on in your head!
Find Peace!
Kathy

[rk12201960]

Hi WAI
Most time when questions are asked it involves the person or very close to that person.

When we are directly involved our sight becomes unsteady, thats why the bible directs us to see advice from the elders,,,
If I'm off target with this,,,ooops, but its the case more than not,,,
it helps to know because answers can be seasoned to give a correct response, if thats what your looking for and not justification..

Randy

[deftarchangel]

If falling in love is a natural process then lust is involved. Desires of flesh do bring people together. They may end up loving each other but still it is involved.

Can you even give the readers an insight, to where and how these ideas came to be birth from your heart and mind, Who taught you this, or how did you reached this conclusion on your own ?? 

Be forthright and say from where are you coming up with these carnal ideals ??

I suppose the question is, is there a difference between sexual attraction and lust?  Sexual attraction does factor into the equation of wanting to marry someone, though it is NOT (nor should it be) the sole factor in the whole equation.

Paul admits as much:

"The wife has not the jurisdiction of her own body, but the husband, yet likewise the husband also has not the jurisdiction of his own body, but the wife.  Do not deprive one another, except sometime it should be by agreement for a period, that you should have leisure for prayer, and you may be the same again, lest Satan may be trying you because of your incontinence.  Now this I am saying as a concession, not as an injunction." - 1 Cor. 7:4 - 6

"Now I am saying to the unmarried and the widows, that it is ideal for them if ever they should be remaining even as I.  Yet if they are not controlling themselves, let them marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire." - 1 Cor. 7:8 - 9

Now it's hard to know where to draw the line between the definitions of lusting and being sexually attracted to someone, because it's hard to believe you would want to marry someone you weren't physically (and by default, sexually) attracted to.  At the same time, I do think there is a difference between lust and sexual attraction:

lust:
1) to turn upon a thing

2) to have a desire for, long for, to desire

3) to lust after, covet -- a) of those who seek things forbidden

So I believe lusting to be something that you desire that is forbidden.  I get the impression that lust isn't just a sexual thing either, but can cross over to other material desires (like a lust for money or power or what not). 

I don't know.  I guess I'm not very helpful, so perhaps someone else can shed some light on this with Scripture? 

 

[aqrinc]

3rd Excerpt from: What is Marriage.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5675.msg45929.html#msg45929

(9)  Marriage comes under the category of;

Rom 13:7  Render to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.

This is talking about the laws of the land, the governments, the enforcement people and everything else, and all of the regulations that come out of cities and counties and so on.  “…tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom…”   You may be familiar with someone who has as much as spit on this.   You don’t just have to obey the laws, it says you have to obey the customs too. 

The person in the email says, there is no law that says I can’t live with another person.  There is no ‘law of the land’ that says that.  Yes that is true, but there is also no law that says if you do live with a person you are legally husband and wife and you can claim all of the benefits that go along to a husband and wife.  So maybe it’s not a iron clad law that they will put you in jail for, but it is a custom. 
Is marriage not a custom in the western world and everywhere else in the world?  Lets face it, every civilized nation on earth has weddings, right.  To make two people living together, legally husband and wife, every nation on earth has that.  Now maybe it’s not a law where they put you in jail, but it’s certainly a custom. 
Paul says you need to honor custom to whom custom and if you don’t you’re sinning.  It’s as simple as that, “custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honor to whom honor.”  Even tribute, you need a license that you have to pay for, that’s tribute.  You say, ‘I don’t want to pay for it.’  It’s the law. 

You say, ‘I know how to drive a car and I don’t need a license to drive a car.’  Yes you do, actually you do.  You don’t need a license to physically be able to drive a car, but you see there is laws and if you break the laws you’re sinning.  So I don’t see where God says…… show me where the Bible says, you need a license to drive a car.  I have people so stupid that say things like that. 
They will say, ‘show me in the Bible where it says you can’t smoke marijuana or take drugs, where is it, show me that.’  Actually I can show you that come to think of it.  I do know some places that I can show you that, back in Revelation, ‘porneia.’  But they will say, ‘you show me that in the Bible.’  That is stupid, “custom to whom custom,”  that’s where it is, it comes under a principle.  You have to learn principles, right. 

So proper marriage and licensing fulfill every one of these ‘tribute to whom tribute, custom to whom custom,” you see.  Therefore we should do it.

(10)  1 Tim 4:1  “Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of demons,”

This is kind of important, right.

v. 2  “speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron,”

And what is the first thing they do?

v. 3  “forbidding to marry…”

You can lay this verse directly at the door steps of the Catholic church, where they forbid priests to marry.  Now they have a right to do that, but what does it produce?  What does that doctrine of devils forbidding men, who are filled with testosterone, what does it produce?  It produces a whole plethora of priest who have sex with little boys, that’s what it produces.  It’s a sin and it stinks to high heaven. 

The word ‘marry’ there is forbidding to wed, forbidding to take the marriage ceremony, ritual, covenant, nuptials, oaths……all for the doctrines of devils.  So can we see how important this is?

george. 

[deftarchangel]

Lust
Intense or >>>unrestrained<<< sexual craving.  ((UNRESTRAINED says it all))

That's the distinction I was looking for.  Thanks Rodger.

 

[judith collier]

I know, I know, about the catholic church but this is how I was taught. Marriage was raised to a sacrament by the church because of Jesus turning the water into wine at Canaan. The fact that this was his first miracle and that He did this for the wedding party shows us Jesus had mercy on the ceremony and condoned marriage.    Also, the bible says, "the marriage bed is undefiled"   We were made to propogate, the desire was put there by God. Anything of excess is never good even sex. A married man and woman love to please each other if they love one another. It is absolutely good in this respect. Judy

[Dave in Tenn]

Lust is a part of our sinfulness related to envy...a desire for something which isn't ours.  Envy (under the law) relates to possessions (including wives).  Lust expresses itself sexually.  "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is the law.  Christ explained that even to have lust in one's heart is commiting adultery.  That's Spirit.  Lust is adultery.

God designed male and female and gave us sexual feelings.  God designed and blessed marriage.  Scripture assumes marriage, and also defines it in many ways--not the least of which by telling us what violates marriage, namely adultery.  Adultery is the evil which defines the good, and mankind has plenty of experience with both.

Lust (having and harboring sexual desires) for a person outside of marriage is sin.  That person is not yours.  Having and harboring sexual desires for a person within marriage is not a sin, and is not lust.  That person IS yours.  So much yours that you are described as one flesh. 

Can there still be lust within marriage?  Yes.  The letter of the law would have the man able to force himself on his wife under any circumstance.  But the reality of a physically loving relationship goes beyond the letter of the law (as Christ did with murder and adultery) and calls us to something greater.  That's the 'higher calling'.  That's the 'righteousness greater than the Pharisees'.  That's Love.  As with murder, He does NOT eliminate the law, however.  That's Love too.

To me, one of the reasons that God in scripture keeps mentioning sex both in terms of sin, and marriage in general, is because those of a certain maturity know what He is talking about.             

 

[mharrell08]

Lust is a part of our sinfulness related to envy...a desire for something which isn't ours.  Envy (under the law) relates to possessions (including wives).  Lust expresses itself sexually.  "Thou shalt not commit adultery" is the law.  Christ explained that even to have lust in one's heart is commiting adultery.  That's Spirit.  Lust is adultery.

God designed male and female and gave us sexual feelings.  God designed and blessed marriage.  Scripture assumes marriage, and also defines it in many ways--not the least of which by telling us what violates marriage, namely adultery.  Adultery is the evil which defines the good, and mankind has plenty of experience with both.

Lust (having and harboring sexual feelings) for a person outside of marriage is sin.  That person is not yours.  Having and harboring sexual feelings for a person within marriage is not a sin, and is not lust.  That person IS yours.  So much yours that you are described as one flesh. 

Can there still be lust within marriage?  Yes.  The letter of the law would have the man able to force himself on his wife under any circumstance.  But the reality of a physically loving relationship goes beyond the letter of the law (as Christ did with murder and adultery) and calls us to something greater.  That's the 'higher calling'.  That's the 'righteousness greater than the Pharisees'.  That's Love.  As with murder, He does NOT eliminate the letter of the law, however.  That's Love too.

To me, one of the reasons that God in scripture keeps mentioning sex both in terms of sin, and marriage in general, is because those of a certain maturity know what He is talking about.

Glory to God Dave...well said. 


Marques

[EKnight]

I think I understand both sides here.  I agree wholeheartedly with Dave's post.

IMO, the "sex" part of a marriage is purely physical.  I know that is how it is in my marriage anyway.  However, the marriage itself is spiritual.  Marriage is a covenant between a husband and wife and God.  It's a lifelong promise.  It's a promise made out of love for one another and for God.  I have often said that sex and love have nothing to do with one another.  It is love that solidifies fidelity. 

Eileen

[WhoAmI]

I know many of you think you understand what I posted. I mean you respond so strongly and apply ideas to the post that I don't even endorse. It is shocking. And it is scary. I'm sure you will be able to read something about this post and show by scriptures how sick and disturbed I am. I will spend no more time here. I'm thankful God knows my heart and thoughts, surely he understands. Go in peace.

[indianabob]

Friend, Who Am I ,

It is always the responsibility of the speaker or writer to communicate full understanding to the hearers.

If we are responding to ideas that you didn't endorse, then it may be your task to edit your comments so that all can understand them more correctly.  I know that this is often difficult since I have a similar limitation and edit most of my contributions before sending, but if one desires to someday become a teacher it is really necessary that one accept that burden.

It is a real blessing for a young teacher to overcome misunderstanding, especially with other folks who seem to think that they know all the answers.  God works in mysterious ways to teach each of us patience and longsuffering so that we may attain in some measure to the status of His only begotten son Jesus.

I hope you will return and share with us when you are ready.

Regards, Indiana Bob

[rk12201960]

very nice Bob.
Wai, your  question is like this,,,,
,,,, looking for someone in a fog you hear their voice very strongly, but have no idea where its coming from...

Don't speak in a fog,,, it gets everyone lost,
Peace
Randy

[WhoAmI]

If falling in love is a natural process then lust is involved. Desires of flesh do bring people together.

N U T S !!  unsalted at that.

Can you even give the readers an insight, to where and how these ideas came to be birth from your heart and mind, Who taught you this, or how did you reached this conclusion on your own ?? 

Be forthright and say from where are you coming up with these carnal ideals ??

And no Scripture, wonder why that is ??

Rodger

 It is just a simple statement showing how "ATTRACTION" can bring people together. Yes it is carnal. I think that is very obvious. I am not telling you that this is LOVE. I am saying people are pulled to one another by attraction. You can find someone physically attractive and desire to talk to them. And then maybe by this talking you might get to know one another and then date. Maybe you will even get married later in life.