Ecc 3:1, Prov 16:9, Free Will, the myth

[Amrhrasach]

Ecc 3:1  To everything--a season, and a time to every delight under the heavens:

Pro 16:9  A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

VVVVVV

"For He has set a season for every event and for every deed..." (The Concordant Literal Old Testament).

Again we ask, since "EVERY work, purpose, matter, deed and event" under heaven must happen at an "APPOINTED TIME," how can there be such a thing as human, uncaused, "free-will?"
•   Is any man free to do anything other than what God HAS "appointed time" for? No.
•   Is any man free to do anything that God HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.
•   Is any man free to do or not to do anything that God HAS or HAS NOT assigned an "appointed time" for? No.

Then how can man have a free will?
   
Man's will is predicated on previous circumstances and causes, all of which originate in God's preordained plan and purpose."

The Myth of Free-will exposed, part D.
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

VVVV

I have listened to it repeatedly.  I have read it no less than five times....S.L.O.W.L.Y, which means I must be the dumbest around.  Actually God hasn't opened my spiritual eyes and I continue to pray he does.   But, until then, the beast will not die and such a spiritual fight it is.

Help me correct my thinking and understanding please.  Am I to understand that scripture is saying:

(A)-every deed we've ever done has been PRE-APPROVED by God as merely part of his plan?  In other words, he just simply knows the choices we will make and he sort of stamps it as "and it is so", "I'll allow it" sort of thing?

............or............

(B)-the choices one has made in life, and resulting actions/consequences, were PRE-REQUIRED by God in his ultimate plan?  IE:  where one lives, who one marries, number of children, one's employment at any particular time, and yes, even sins committed in one's life?


If (B) is true, then, not only must I repent of the idol of Free-will, but, I also must repent of judging very harshly, not only myself, but also many significant others who have had influence in my life.

For those with greater understanding I'm sure this is a simple matter.  But to me and others like myself perhaps a jumping point.

Appreciate your understanding and help.

Gary

[Kat]

Hi Gary,

I believe that to be able to comprehend this you must understgand that God is sovereign.  He has not "pre-approved" things to happen, He has 'perdestinated' everything just as it is.  How else would He know the end from the beginning.

Isa 46:10  declaring the end from the beginning, and from the past things which were not done, saying, My purpose shall stand, and I will do all My pleasure;

I think this email will help you sort this out a bit.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html ---------------

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?"  It is BOTH.  Listen:  God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE.  That's it. That's all there is to it.  That IS the principle. That IS the Truth.  That IS what the Bible teaches.  It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices."  You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation.  It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you.  God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams.  They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.  So then we don't make choices, right?  NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES.  It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see.  Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED.  And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that?  He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS?  Well, does He?  Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls?  That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will.  They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right?  Wrong, wrong, wrong!  Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them.  He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things.  And who created the Devil?  That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.  Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money.  God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT.  They volunteer with little outside influence.  God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak.  Eve couldn't help but sin.  God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it.  Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

God be with you,

Ray

[deftarchangel]

You're not alone Gary.  Every so often, when I think I have this concept or truth nailed down, I read something, or someone tries to explain it, and it gets all messed up again!   

I just wanted clarification on what you meant by option B.  What do you mean by "pre-requiring?" 

Also, for Kat, what is the difference between pre-approving something and pre-destinating something?  How does that differ from pre-ordaining?  Why are they not all synonymous?  Isn't it basically saying that such and such an action or event will take place at such and such appointed time?

Anyways, as perhaps Gary said, this is merely a jumping point (or re-jumping point) for me as well.  The hamster keeps stumbling on the wheel for me when it comes to this sort of thing.   

Thanks.


Rob

[aqrinc]

Gary,

Put another way, we are sinning machines. Left to our own devices we would make
Sodom and Gomorrah like like Eden. We are living an experience of evil to learn what
is good and right in GOD'S SIGHT.

(CLV)
Rom 8:20 For to vanity was the creation subjected, not voluntarily, but because of Him Who subjects it, in expectation"
Rom 8:21 that the creation itself, also, shall be freed from the slavery of corruption into the glorious freedom of the children of God."
Rom 8:22 For we are aware that the entire creation is groaning and travailing together until now.
Rom 8:23 Yet not only so, but we ourselves also, who have the firstfruit of the spirit, we ourselves also, are groaning in ourselves, awaiting the sonship, the deliverance of our body."
Rom 8:24 For to expectation were we saved. Now expectation, being observed, is not expectation, for what anyone is observing, why is he expecting it also?
Rom 8:25 Now, if we are expecting what we are not observing, we are awaiting it with endurance."

george.

[Amrhrasach]

Hi George, yes, sinning machines.  That I am, as we all are.  But by grace even the dumbest actions I've committed have been framed accordingly.  True?

VVVV

What do you mean by "pre-requiring?" 

Hi Rob, by "pre-requiring" (perhaps not the best of language/term), but what I mean is this.    God says it (whatever) will happen, therefore, it will happen.  See below response to Kat as more of an explanation of the "pre-required" explanation.

VVVV

Hi Kat, and thank you.

"He has not "pre-approved" things to happen, He has 'perdestinated' everything just as it is."

"pre-destinate":  to foreordain; predetermine:  (Webster dictionary)

To "pre-determine".  Then, I am correct.  These many, many dumb decisions I've made are not dumb at all.  They are as according to plan.  God's plan.   Therefore I must relax my judgment not only to myself but to others as well.  Not only do I sit "as a god" on the free-will issue, but also as unto judgment.  In other words, don't judge anyone, including oneself, we do what God requires of us.   It's hard to box all things neatly.  His thoughts are higher than ours.

If I'm correct on this, and I hope I am, then the "truth" does set one free.   We do what we do as part of his plan.  The place where we physically stand at any given time is all of God, not our own "chosen path"?   Regrets of what we think are are own choices then become a thing of the past......?

Gary

[Vangie]

I agree Gary!  And that goes not just for ourselves but for others as well like you say.  This also sets us free to forgive.

Great topic and I love where you're taking it!  Very enlightening.

Love in Christ,
Vangie

[lferretj]

Hello,
  I like the story of Jonah to debunk the Free Will myth--
Jonah 1:1-3 1The word of the LORD came to Jonah son of Amittai: 2 "Go to the great city of Nineveh and preach against it, because its wickedness has come up before me."
3 But Jonah ran away from the LORD and headed for Tarshish. He went down to Joppa, where he found a ship bound for that port. After paying the fare, he went aboard and sailed for Tarshish to flee from the LORD.

Jonah chose to run away from the Lord but God used that for a great purpose--

Johah 1:14-16 14 Then they (the people on the boat) cried to the LORD, "O LORD, please do not let us die for taking this man's life. Do not hold us accountable for killing an innocent man, for you, O LORD, have done as you pleased." 15 Then they took Jonah and threw him overboard, and the raging sea grew calm. 16 At this the men greatly feared the LORD, and they offered a sacrifice to the LORD and made vows to him. (italics mine).

The Lord used Jonah running away to show the men on the boat His power.  But Jonah doesn't have free will, look at what happens next--

Jonah 1:17, 2:10 17 But the LORD provided a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was inside the fish three days and three nights.
10And the LORD commanded the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.

Jonah couldn't thwart God's ultimate plan of having him speak out at Ninevah.

I believe I quote Ray correctly when I say we can go against God's will, but not against His ultimate plan.
E-Mail answer "What did God will fro Adam and Eve" http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm

"One last thought for you. God DID create men spiritually weak so that they cannot resist sin. "ALL have sinned..."It obviously IS God's will that for a time we go AGAINST His will. But. . .BUT, NO ONE EVER goes against God's "INTENTION." There is a giant difference. Paul's detractors ask in Roman's nine, "For who has gone against God's INTENTION?" And the answer is, absolutely NO ONE. It could not even BE God's will that all be saved, unless first ALL ARE LOST! 

If only theologians could come to understand that God is not running a damage control center from His throne of the universe. God is NOT picking up the pieces. He is not trying to get things back to being as good as they once were. He is not trying to figure out how to outsmart Satan. He is not falling behind, numerically, as far as how many will be saved and how many will be lost. God is far smarter and wiser and the stupid men who come up with these insane and blasphemous theories and doctrines.

God has a PLAN. (Wow, now there's a revelation for theologians). And God is working out that plan to perfection on a perfect schedule, and He will loose NOTHING! Paul tells us in Rom. 11:36 that ALL is out of God and THROUGH God and FOR God. God is creating man in His OWN IMAGE. It is a PROCESS. That process is on perfect schedule. It WILL be successful. Christ IS the saviour of the world and therefore, He WILL SAVE THE WORLD. How can you be a minister of the gospel and doubt God's ability to save all of His children? That's insane."


Hope this helps
     lferretj

[judith collier]

I really like where you said, "Jonah couldn't thwart God's ultimate plan"  If one is working with the will of God, nothing  and I mean nothing will defeat God's plan for you which is good and you won't even have to take a ride in the belly of a whale. You might suffer some but you know it will come to pass.  Judy

[aqrinc]

Hi Gary,

I think you get it on this subject:

(YLT)

Psa 37:23  From Jehovah are the steps of a man, They have been prepared, And his way he desireth.
Psa 37:24  When he falleth, he is not cast down, For Jehovah is sustaining his hand.
Psa 37:25  Young I have been, I have also become old, And I have not seen the righteous forsaken, And his seed seeking bread.
Psa 37:26  All the day he is gracious and lending, And his seed is for a blessing.
Psa 37:27  Turn aside from evil, and do good, and dwell to the age.
Psa 37:28  For Jehovah is loving judgment, And He doth not forsake His saintly ones, To the age they have been kept, And the seed of the wicked is cut off.

george.

[Kat]

Hi Rob,

what is the difference between pre-approving something and pre-destinating something?

What 'pre-approved' sounds like to me is God approves of what we decide to do.  As 'pre-destinates' would mean God's plan is already worked out, so we are already predestinated in all that will happen.


Gary you do seems to be going to the right direction with this now 

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[Ninny]

Let me give you a little of my feelings on this subject as everyone has given scripture already.
We know that God KNOWS everything from beginning to end what we will do how we will react to certain things. BUT WE DON'T know how anything will turn out. We are subject to God's will and when we let Him take the reigns of control in our life instead of thinking we have some sort of free will to carve out our own destiny, then we are at a place of enlightenment. When we pull against God to have free will in the matters of life we are only making our course longer and more difficult. You've heard the saying "you get enough rope to hang yourself". I feel like God gives us enough rope to hang ourselves! When we are sufficiently strangled on trying to make our own way then we are at the place where God can finish His work in us. I kind of think that's how He is seen to DRAG us to Him! He gets us by that rope we have hung ourselves with and pulls us in--like a tow line.

This may be way off base here, but God you remember is full of grace and mercy, He is longsuffering toward us. He will drag us all the way if He has to in order to save us! God is so loving as a Father that He just isn't willing for us to be lost. Even the lost among us will one day be saved, don't belabor the things you don't understand because God has put the desire in you to learn His will HE will give you answers, but first you have to stop! Remember the scripture says: "Be still and know that I am God"
Think about what that verse means.
That's how I see it!
Kathy

[aqrinc]

Well written Kathy.

george.

Let me give you a little of my feelings on this subject as everyone has given scripture already.
We know that God KNOWS everything from beginning to end what we will do how we will react to certain things. BUT WE DON'T know how anything will turn out. We are subject to God's will and when we let Him take the reigns of control in our life instead of thinking we have some sort of free will to carve out our own destiny, then we are at a place of enlightenment. When we pull against God to have free will in the matters of life we are only making our course longer and more difficult. You've heard the saying "you get enough rope to hang yourself". I feel like God gives us enough rope to hang ourselves! When we are sufficiently strangled on trying to make our own way then we are at the place where God can finish His work in us. I kind of think that's how He is seen to DRAG us to Him! He gets us by that rope we have hung ourselves with and pulls us in--like a tow line.

This may be way off base here, but God you remember is full of grace and mercy, He is longsuffering toward us. He will drag us all the way if He has to in order to save us! God is so loving as a Father that He just isn't willing for us to be lost. Even the lost among us will one day be saved, don't belabor the things you don't understand because God has put the desire in you to learn His will HE will give you answers, but first you have to stop! Remember the scripture says: "Be still and know that I am God"
Think about what that verse means.
That's how I see it!
Kathy

[Heidi]

Rob....God says that His Word will not return void...keep studying His Word and He will reveal Himself to you if you seek Him diligently and not give up.

Isaiah 55:11  So shall My word be that goeth forth out of My mouth: it shall not return unto Me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

Hebrews11:6  But without faith it is impossible to please Him: for He that cometh to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

Heidi

PS  Kathy, thanks for the beautiful reminder...."Be still and know that I am God"....I need to apply this in my life a lot more than what I am currently doing.

[Ninny]

Heidi,
It is so funny to me that when I am reading some threads and I Reply to them something happens. I look over it after it posts and see that God is really having me write things down that he is telling ME!!
We just forge ahead so much in life with our busy schedules and our day to day concerns that occasionally
God has to tell us: STOP!!! Not just "okay now, stop and smell the roses here" No it is STOP! 
"Relax and know that I am Elohim; I shall be exalted among the nations; I shall be exalted in the earth."
(Psa 46:10)CLV   POWERFUL!
Kathy

[Heidi]

"Relax and know that I am Elohim; I shall be exalted among the nations; I shall be exalted in the earth."
(Psa 46:10)CLV   POWERFUL!

POWERFUL INDEED......I could not help but be covered in gooseflesh when reading Ps 46:10

Heidi
PS Its a pity that they don't have a little symbol to show when you are having one of those goosy moments