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Author Topic: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.  (Read 11446 times)

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Harry

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A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« on: February 05, 2009, 08:53:58 PM »



  A thought has occurred to me regardding the suffering that humanity is being subjected to by God. The thought is based on a principle that is alluded to in the bible ( Ps 90:15, Isa 61:3). I believe this a spiritual law that can be likened to the known physical law that says for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction.  With this law in mind if the eternal phase of our existence will be governed by the temporal phase of our existence how much suffering would we want God to allow? In other words if the height and depth and breadth of our joy and fulfilment in the life to come was only limited by the sorrow and suffering that occurred in this phase how much do we want?

  Harry
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Akira329

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 09:37:30 PM »

It never ceases to amaze me how many different ways
a topic is approached on this forum.

Hey Harry,
Try reading this older thread, it might help you
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8705.0.html

Also Lake of Fire 15
http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

Hope it helps in you understanding
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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Beloved

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2009, 09:45:36 PM »

Okay Harry help me out with your question here are the two quotes your referred to, can you explain more about what you mean ?

(Psa 90:15)  Make us glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us, and the years wherein we have seen evil.

(Isa 61:3)  To appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them beauty for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they might be called trees of righteousness, the planting of the LORD, that he might be glorified.

How do these scriptures play into what you are asking  exactly Are you saying only those who suffer greatly will be rewarded greatly?  I do not think we get to choose that exactly.

beloved

« Last Edit: February 05, 2009, 09:47:48 PM by Beloved »
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Beloved

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2009, 10:15:55 PM »

Since God will send the trials in our life, it is also very comforting to know that

1Co 10:13 Trial, hath not taken you, save such as man can bear; faithful, moreover is God, who will not suffer you to be tried above what ye are able, but will make, with the trial, also the way of escape, that ye may be able to hold out.

(Heb 2:18)  For, in that, he, suffered when tested, he is able, unto them who are being tested, to give succour.

We are all vessels that were made to temper things differently and the Potter knows exactly what tempering is needed. .

beloved
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Harry

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2009, 11:57:25 PM »


  OK,  I think I need to elaborate a little. Ps 90:15  says "Make us (God and all of humanity)glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us ( Himself and us), and the years wherein we have seen evil". First I will tell you the reason I believe that this verse refers to all of humanity. In John 17:21 Jesus prayed " That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us".  Now let me add to that this fact that I'm confident we will all agree on and that is God is the source of all consciousness or in other words all consciousness stems from God because God is the only self-existent eternal being. Simply put..at one time in the past God was the only conscious being in existence. Now God made Adam and breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul and likewise Eve became a living soul...both conscious beings. [ Please bear with me and you will see where all of this is leading]. Now we know that Adam and Eve could not think a thought or have a conscious experience that God did not also experience (because God is omniscient...or all knowing). Now carry that out through the conscious existence of every person that has ever lived and you essentially have the "seed".. so to speak.. for the conscious existence in the spiritual life. Just like our physical bodies are only a seed for our glorified spiritual body (1 cor 15:37-39). Likewise the sum total of humanities conscious existence will be the seed for our spiritual eternal existence.  Now take into consideration the fact that we will be made one with the father ( Who contains the sum total of humanities experience) and you will see the unfathomable height and breadth and depth of the life to come. Remembering that the sorrow and pain of this life will be "converted" into Joy and happiness there. Now the question ...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace.

  Harry
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Falconn003

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 12:12:34 AM »



Harry"...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace."

well put

Rodger
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 03:37:22 PM by Falconn003 »
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aqrinc

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2009, 01:25:02 AM »

Harry,

Why in the Heavens you did not write it just so in the first place. ??? Even i can understand
and roll out my thinking machine again. :) I must commend you for coming out with meaty
things so early in your fellowship here; it is good to see.

george. ;D

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Akira329

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2009, 01:47:39 AM »

I'm not getting it ??? :-\
Did I miss something?
Should we desire pain and suffering then??
He will only give us what we can bear, how do I know what I can bear??
In the end when I have borne all that I could, that now equates to my Joy and Happiness??
What is my goal then? To have more than the next person?
If I am a part of the father in the end am I a lesser or greater part of the whole??
Someone help me, I think I'm losing it............ :P

I need some scripture :(

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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mharrell08

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2009, 08:26:43 AM »

Harry,

I agree with Antaiwan...what scriptures and/or Ray's teachings can you specifically point out that support what you are saying? The purpose of this board is to discuss scriptures and/or Ray's teachings.


  OK,  I think I need to elaborate a little. Ps 90:15  says "Make us (God and all of humanity)glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us ( Himself and us), and the years wherein we have seen evil". First I will tell you the reason I believe that this verse refers to all of humanity. In John 17:21 Jesus prayed " That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us".  Now let me add to that this fact that I'm confident we will all agree on and that is God is the source of all consciousness or in other words all consciousness stems from God because God is the only self-existent eternal being. Simply put..at one time in the past God was the only conscious being in existence. Now God made Adam and breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul and likewise Eve became a living soul...both conscious beings. [ Please bear with me and you will see where all of this is leading]. Now we know that Adam and Eve could not think a thought or have a conscious experience that God did not also experience (because God is omniscient...or all knowing). Now carry that out through the conscious existence of every person that has ever lived and you essentially have the "seed".. so to speak.. for the conscious existence in the spiritual life. Just like our physical bodies are only a seed for our glorified spiritual body (1 cor 15:37-39). Likewise the sum total of humanities conscious existence will be the seed for our spiritual eternal existence.  Now take into consideration the fact that we will be made one with the father ( Who contains the sum total of humanities experience) and you will see the unfathomable height and breadth and depth of the life to come. Remembering that the sorrow and pain of this life will be "converted" into Joy and happiness there. Now the question ...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace.

  Harry

This passage in bold in particular...Adam and Eve and all humanity's thoughts are carnal, fleshly. How does that prove that God once had or has carnal thoughts? To have a knowledge of evil and actually commit evil are two separate things.



Marques
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Harry

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #9 on: February 06, 2009, 11:14:09 AM »

  Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).

   Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face.

  I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns.  Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing.  Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy.  Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is).  Because God is all in all. But it helps me to look at the core of the process. We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy. Now if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage. Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy. I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job when he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms. 

  Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience.  Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible.  Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal ) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness. Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire ) and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife).  Here is the example in a nutshell.  Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad.  God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.

  Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO!   Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of the sum total of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why?   Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstance and...for lack of a better example, created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.

  Harry

 
« Last Edit: February 12, 2009, 05:08:10 PM by Harry »
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mharrell08

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #10 on: February 06, 2009, 11:40:52 AM »

Harry,

If you state that Job 38:15-25 is a reference to what you are stating, please show us. As a matter of fact, please show any scriptures to validate what you are stating.

For instance, this quote...what scriptures are you basing these claims on?


  Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO!   Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why?   Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.

  Harry


Also, you stated you came to the website 2 weeks ago. How do you know that all these 'matters of your personal journey of many years' are in agreement or contrary to Ray's teaching in only 2 weeks? Where are the 2-3 scriptural witnesses as well as their spiritual match (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm [#6 & 7])? These are just some of the basic things that are taught by the scriptures that Ray has taught and pointed out.



Marques

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smeacham

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #11 on: February 06, 2009, 04:07:36 PM »

Hi Harry,

Please interpret what I say as being said in love, with gentleness and respect (hard to infer in written conversation)...

Your question and line of reasoning is interesting, but makes me uncomfortable.  It's not passing my "smell test."  We've learned not to trust our own reasoning, but rather to rely on 2 or 3 scriptures that spiritually match to establish a truth.  THIS is what sets Ray's style of teaching apart.  I'm learning to do it myself, but it's awfully hard.

Since Ray hasn't published anything on this subject, we're on THIN ICE discussing it to such detail.  Without using scriptures to find spiritual matches, I very much feel like we're just floating on THIN AIR.  I suggest that we get our feet on the ground, and quickly, before anyone does or says something we'll regret.

Let me just add, Harry, from experience - do not be in a hurry to teach.  I've been in that position for years, and regret so much of what I've taught others now that I know better.  I praise God for keeping my mouth closed on several occasions, too!

Steve
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Kat

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #12 on: February 06, 2009, 04:50:38 PM »


Hi Steve, 

I think you have made some really good points.  Without Scripture backing up what we say, we have no ground to stand on and it becomes a slippery slope.  That's why we have a rule to not bring in your own ideas/teaching.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Ninny

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #13 on: February 06, 2009, 05:23:39 PM »

Kat, that is what makes life so much easier on this forum! We are really protected here from getting sidetracked by a lot of other teachings. Goodness knows there is enough here to study for all of us! Sticking to what Ray teaches on this forum is what it's all about! Thanks! :D We all like to give our own opinions and ideas, but we have to be careful not to cross the line into teaching! I'm not trying to be mean to anyone, it's just true!
Kathy ;)
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Akira329

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #14 on: February 06, 2009, 06:14:11 PM »

Hey Harry!
I want to try this again. Thanks for elaborating more ;)
If there are good points to be had I want them.


  Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).

   Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face.

 I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns.  Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing. 
Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy. 
Why would I do that?

Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is). 
Because God is all in all.
1Co 15:28  And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

But it helps me to look at the core of the process.
We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy.
We have this?? So our positive and negative energy is free to move about? Or our good and evil is unbounded having no limits or is it limited?

Now if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage.
Well you just told me to think of them as good and evil

Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy.
Now righteousness has boundaries. In what way? In who can receive it and in who cannot?
How can anything be bound in that which is boundless?


I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job when he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms. 
I don't see how Job makes reference to any of these statements you have made.
I will meditate more on this one.


Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience.  Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible.
On earth or in Heaven??

Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal but walking after the spirit..hopefully everyone :-) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness.
Are you comparing physical with spiritual?


Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire )
Is there an example of this in scripture?

and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife). 
What is wrong with wanting pleasure? I take great pleasure in the Law of God(the spiritual Law)

I'm sorry guys I know this is going to set off a lot of wives..... just tell her to cool down..God has it all worked out...and He will do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think ( Eph 3:20) Here is the example in a nutshell.  Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad.  God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.
Again are you comparing physical with spiritual?


Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO!   Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why?   Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Not really, I feel something is missing? Thanks for trying to explain your points Harry but I need scripture and there is a lot of carnal thinking going on here and I was doing some myself. I think I know what your saying but its not quite there yet. I don't see the good points people are eluding to.

Harry

 

Thanks for sharing
I hope you continue to do so! :)

Antaiwan


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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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Beloved

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2009, 08:28:08 PM »

Harry I hope that you are not feeling that we are picking on you, that is not the intent. We are challenging your thinking a bit.

Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).

   Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face

  I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns.  Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing.  Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy.  Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is).  Because God is all in all. But it helps me to look at the core of the process. We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy. I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job whenNow if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage. Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion.   he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms. 

  Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience.  Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible.  Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal but walking after the spirit..hopefully everyone :-) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness. Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire ) and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife).  I'm sorry guys I know this is going to set off a lot of wives..... just tell her to cool down..God has it all worked out...and He will do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think ( Eph 3:20) Here is the example in a nutshell.  Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad.  God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.

  Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed
. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO!   Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of all of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why?   

Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstances and...for lack of a better example created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.

  Harry
 


You mention the duality of good and evil....and then state that God is all in all    scripture does not exactly support that.

All the laws of mixing:, wool with linen ,milk with meat ,the scape goat etc and the warning to separate and come out show us that God who is pure good will not associate with sin and the sinful...so God is not "in" these sinners....yet.

He is workin on it
Eph 1:23  which is his body, the fulness of Him who is filling the all in all,

(1Co 12:6)  and there are diversities of workings, and it is the same God--who is working the all in all.

It will come to pass
1Co 15:28  Now when all the [things] are subjected to Him, then the Son also Himself will be subjected to One having subjected all the [things] to Him, so that God shall be the all in all

I am a bit confused because you define good and evil as positive and negative and then say there is no good or bad....which is this sounds like a shell game of " under which cup is the pea. Duality is what is physical.....only spiritual purity can attain oneness.

You also tend to look at all of this as for our joy.....but look at the scriptures

It is His joy that we will have Jesus being one with Father knew the plan
Heb 12:2  looking to the author and perfecter of faith--Jesus, who, over-against the joy set before him--did endure a cross, shame having despised, on the right hand also of the throne of God did sit down;


Joh 16:24  till now ye did ask nothing in my name; ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.   
The only way that you can recieve the same answer that jesus got is to have Christ in you..and pray the Will of the Father

Joh 15:11  these things I have spoken to you, that my joy in you may remain, and your joy may be full.    Like Rays shows you got to look at the words...it says  may remain and may be

Here is something you point too....
Job 38:7  In the singing together of stars of morning, And all sons of God shout for joy,  It will be glorious in the end as it was in the beginning

 But none of this is for us...it is for ALL for the Glory of God

He has hidden it for awhile
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of ...

He has promised it
Joh 11:40  Jesus saith to her, `Said I not to thee, that if thou mayest believe, thou shalt see the glory of God

He has shown how it will be done
Php 2:11  and every tongue may confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

and He tells us why ot was done
(2Co 4:15)  For everything is for your sakes, in order that grace, being more richly bestowed because of the thanksgivings of the increased number, may more and more promote the glory of God.

Harry all of us here  have these ticks in gnats in our fur and we all need to work hard to get them out (his working in us will do this) , we need to see what God is saying and not try to describe the undescribable...you speak of consciousness do you REALLY know exactly what that is?  Yikes thinking about tht gives me a headache.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

All our words need to be examined, so Harry I hope you take this in the spirit given. I see what you are trying to say but I like other also see the carnal aspects that can cloud the thinking.

Rev 21:23  and the city hath no need of the sun, nor of the moon, that they may shine in it; for the glory of God did lighten it, and the lamp of it is the Lamb;   This is a nice peice of spiritual meat

Never the less your post sure make the heart sing thinking on these things
 
(Psa 150:1)  Praise ye the LORD. Praise God in his sanctuary: praise him in the firmament of his power.

(Psa 150:2)  Praise him for his mighty acts: praise him according to his excellent greatness.

(Psa 150:3)  Praise him with the sound of the trumpet: praise him with the psaltery and harp.

(Psa 150:4)  Praise him with the timbrel and dance: praise him with stringed instruments and organs.

(Psa 150:5)  Praise him upon the loud cymbals: praise him upon the high sounding cymbals.

(Psa 150:6)  Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD.
                 Praise ye the LORD


beloved

« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 11:12:02 PM by Beloved »
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Rene

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2009, 08:50:25 PM »

Hi Harry,

Please interpret what I say as being said in love, with gentleness and respect (hard to infer in written conversation)...

Your question and line of reasoning is interesting, but makes me uncomfortable.  It's not passing my "smell test."  We've learned not to trust our own reasoning, but rather to rely on 2 or 3 scriptures that spiritually match to establish a truth.  THIS is what sets Ray's style of teaching apart.  I'm learning to do it myself, but it's awfully hard.

Since Ray hasn't published anything on this subject, we're on THIN ICE discussing it to such detail.  Without using scriptures to find spiritual matches, I very much feel like we're just floating on THIN AIR.  I suggest that we get our feet on the ground, and quickly, before anyone does or says something we'll regret.

Let me just add, Harry, from experience - do not be in a hurry to teach.  I've been in that position for years, and regret so much of what I've taught others now that I know better.  I praise God for keeping my mouth closed on several occasions, too!

Steve


Thanks, Steve.  This is a response worth repeating. :)

René
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Harry

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2009, 10:38:00 PM »


  Alright...look guys   I should have been more careful in the way that I presented the things that I wanted to share with you. I'm sure that I came across as a " Know it all" that was going to teach you guy's something. I know that is not a good way to win friends and it has a tendency to put people on the defensive......I'm sorry.    I could try to answer all of the concerns that were voiced regardding the things that I wrote about. And I will be glad to if some of you really want to understand what I was trying to relate to you.  Yes I will use as much scripture as I can to back it up. I can tell by the responses that what I was saying was not being understood correctly.  But ...it would probably be better not to pile anymore on top of what you guys already have to digest. I know that most of you have recently had to let go of a lot of teachings that you had probably held all of your lives and it is kind of scary to be venturing into unknown territory. Our beliefs can tend to be a type of security blanket for us and it is threatening when you have too much change at one time.  I'm confident that if the things that I believe are true.....we will all eventually come into it..whether it's me that shares it with you or someone else. I have read a lot of what Ray teaches and had already come to the same conclusions in my own search...although I had just very recently began to consider that all people might be saved.....Ray provided a short cut for me on that one.  I'm not saying this to brag...I'm saying it so you will understand why I'm trying to run ahead...I believe there are other pieces to the puzzle that will clarify things even more for us. But.... As I said it's probably not a good idea to go there right now.

    Thanx for your time
    Harry
 P.S.  Don't worry my feelings are not hurt.. although I know I should have been more sensitive
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walt123

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2009, 07:11:22 AM »

Hello Harry

I was trying to keep in open mind to your post,and all the responces.
but speaking for myself,it sound as if your speaking in tongues and there no to to interput
venturing to far from home "Gods word"with out supportive Scripture is dangerous to you and others.
we all must stay close to Scripture

I say this all in kindness , Walt
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Harry

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Re: A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
« Reply #19 on: February 07, 2009, 10:10:53 AM »



   Wow!!!!  The Lord's will be done.....God is bringing good out of my wrong line of thinking.. As I have prayed about this whole matter I realize that all of your concerns are justified and I need to back away from this line of thinking. I'm not going to say that there isn't some truth to what I was promoting....But I'm convinced that I need to forget the whole matter...at least for now.  I need to stick with the plain word of God and not think too much...but trust him to lead me into the truth. The one good thing that came of all this is the fact that my pride took a good hit....Please pray that the Lord will give me the grace to be more humble in the future. I thank all of you for your concern. I think he caused this whole thing just for this purpose. God knows I need a good dose of humbling from time to time.

   Harry

   
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