> General Discussions
A point regardding the suffering that God causes.
Falconn003:
Harry"...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace."
well put
Rodger
aqrinc:
Harry,
Why in the Heavens you did not write it just so in the first place. ??? Even i can understand
and roll out my thinking machine again. :) I must commend you for coming out with meaty
things so early in your fellowship here; it is good to see.
george. ;D
Akira329:
I'm not getting it ??? :-\
Did I miss something?
Should we desire pain and suffering then??
He will only give us what we can bear, how do I know what I can bear??
In the end when I have borne all that I could, that now equates to my Joy and Happiness??
What is my goal then? To have more than the next person?
If I am a part of the father in the end am I a lesser or greater part of the whole??
Someone help me, I think I'm losing it............ :P
I need some scripture :(
Antaiwan
mharrell08:
Harry,
I agree with Antaiwan...what scriptures and/or Ray's teachings can you specifically point out that support what you are saying? The purpose of this board is to discuss scriptures and/or Ray's teachings.
--- Quote from: Harry on February 05, 2009, 08:57:25 PM --- OK, I think I need to elaborate a little. Ps 90:15 says "Make us (God and all of humanity)glad according to the days wherein thou hast afflicted us ( Himself and us), and the years wherein we have seen evil". First I will tell you the reason I believe that this verse refers to all of humanity. In John 17:21 Jesus prayed " That they all may be one: as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us". Now let me add to that this fact that I'm confident we will all agree on and that is God is the source of all consciousness or in other words all consciousness stems from God because God is the only self-existent eternal being. Simply put..at one time in the past God was the only conscious being in existence. Now God made Adam and breathed into him the breath of life and Adam became a living soul and likewise Eve became a living soul...both conscious beings. [ Please bear with me and you will see where all of this is leading]. Now we know that Adam and Eve could not think a thought or have a conscious experience that God did not also experience (because God is omniscient...or all knowing). Now carry that out through the conscious existence of every person that has ever lived and you essentially have the "seed".. so to speak.. for the conscious existence in the spiritual life. Just like our physical bodies are only a seed for our glorified spiritual body (1 cor 15:37-39). Likewise the sum total of humanities conscious existence will be the seed for our spiritual eternal existence. Now take into consideration the fact that we will be made one with the father ( Who contains the sum total of humanities experience) and you will see the unfathomable height and breadth and depth of the life to come. Remembering that the sorrow and pain of this life will be "converted" into Joy and happiness there. Now the question ...how much pain and suffering do we want God to allow here...Answer...As much as we can bear...By his grace.
Harry
--- End quote ---
This passage in bold in particular...Adam and Eve and all humanity's thoughts are carnal, fleshly. How does that prove that God once had or has carnal thoughts? To have a knowledge of evil and actually commit evil are two separate things.
Marques
Harry:
Thank you Rodger and George for your supportive replies. I was beginning to be afraid that I might not be understood and end up getting myself kicked off of here. I am in no way here to bring division or discord. I have been dealing with these matters in my own personal journey to the truth for many years. I already held many of the beliefs that Ray teaches before I ever came across his website ( about 2wks ago).
Now for Antawian and Marques, First of all...Thank you.. for expressing your questions and concerns. As far as this being a subject that Ray deals with directly in his writings...it's not...but...it is also in no way contradictory to what he teaches. And I'm sure that Ray wants us...and all of us should want... to follow on to as complete an understanding of God's plan for us as our finite minds can comprehend until we behold our Father face to face.
I think if I elaborate a little bit more it might clear up your concerns. Let me share something that helped me tremendously in the understanding of what I'm convinced... God is doing. Think of good and evil ..as negative and positive energy. Now we know that everything that exists was contained within God...at the very beginning ( and still is). Because God is all in all. But it helps me to look at the core of the process. We have God with infinite knowledge and wisdom at his side...and we have boundless negative and positive energy. Now if we think of negative and positive energy as neither good nor bad.... ( hang with me please ) but both of them having there proper usage. Much as a magnet has a north and south pole which can be used to create attraction or repulsion. Now what I believe God did was ...He established the bounds of righteousness within this energy. I'm convinced that that is what he is referring to in the book of Job when he talks of all the boundaries and borders that He established at the beginning ( Job 38:15-25) Think of what is being talked about in these verses in spiritual terms.
Now let me give an example of how that might translate in humanities conscious experience. Lets take the relationship of man and woman. God wants man and woman to have the highest and most fulfilling experience possible. Now the experience that happens to be one of the highest human experiences is the sexual union between husband and wife. God wants the attraction of the two to be as intense as possible...the problem is because of our current state of mind ( Carnal ) whenever we encounter something that creates that level of desire the danger exists that we will covet the pleasure at the expense of righteousness. Now here is what I believe God is working out within us. He wants to keep the good ( intensity of desire ) and eliminate the bad ( wanting the pleasure more than to love God or my wife). Here is the example in a nutshell. Intense sexual attraction= Good....coveting and selfishness=Bad. God is eliminating the bad while intensifying and preserving the good.
Now regardding the concern that Antwian expressed. Will our joy and happiness in the eternal life be limited by our own personal pain and suffering in this life....NO! Our joy and happiness in the eternal life will be limited by the pain and suffering of the sum total of humanity...through all the ages from Adam and Eve until the return of Christ...why? Because we will become one with the Father even as Jesus is one with Him... Think of it this way...God took his singular consciousness and extrapolated it out into the billions of human consciousnesses under every conceivable circumstance and...for lack of a better example, created or is creating the data base of experience that will be the seed for our eternal existence...keeping in mind that the pain and suffering will be converted to joy and happiness. We are each playing our own small part in establishing that seed that we will all enjoy the fruit from. I hope this clears things up a little more.
Harry
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