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Author Topic: God or god (satan)?  (Read 4356 times)

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EKnight

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God or god (satan)?
« on: February 07, 2009, 01:51:02 PM »

I am re-reading the lake of fire series and came across what on the surface appears to be contradictory.  Perhaps someone could clear this up for me.

http://bible-truths.com/lake9.html


    "In whom the god [SATAN] of this world has blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, Who is the Image of God, should shine unto them" (II Cor. 4:4).

Oh, that the Church would believe the Scriptures. Why are there billions who "believe not" in the world? Is it because they CHOOSE to believe not? Thatís what well-intentioned Christians tell me all the time. "Ray! these people CHOOSE to go to hell." How, pray tell, can they "choose" to go to hell, when they "believe NOT" in the first place. They donít "make a choice," the choice is made for them, because they "believe not." And JUST WHY do they "believe not?"

Will you insist on the Churchís answer or will you humbly accept Godís answer? "In whom the God of this world has BLINDED the minds of them that believe NOTÖ" Thatís why they canít "see" to make the right choiceóTHEY ARE BLIND!

It seems like Ray says in this above passage in the first paragraph that SATAN is the god of this world who is blinding the minds of those who believe not.  But then in the second paragraph using the same scripture, he capitalizes God which would appear to mean that God is doing the blinding.

So which one is it?

Eileen
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EKnight

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2009, 02:22:21 PM »

I guess that this second quote of the scripture* just should not have had the word "god" capitalized?  A typo by the transcriptionist?

*Will you insist on the Churchís answer or will you humbly accept Godís answer? "In whom the God of this world has BLINDED the minds of them that believe NOTÖ" Thatís why they canít "see" to make the right choiceóTHEY ARE BLIND!

Eileen
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Akira329

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2009, 03:24:20 PM »

Hey Eileen!

I think its just a typo.

But nevertheless, Jesus says this:

Mat 13:15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16  But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
Mat 13:17  For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.

The Father is definitely responsible
2Th 2:11  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12  That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God made him(Satan) gave him work to do and gave him purpose.
Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made.

Gen 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Also remember Jesus's parable:
Mat 13:3  And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4  And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:

Mat 13:18  Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19  When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.

With all that said, I still think its just a typo.
The best thing to do is ask Ray or Kat!
I hope this helps you Eileen

Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
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EKnight

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2009, 04:17:54 PM »

Hi Antaiwan,

I am glad you posted this:

Gen 3:14  And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:


because I have another question.  In the above passage, especially the "because thou has done this" (deceived Eve), sounds like God is about to dole out punishment for the serpent's deed, however, God actually gives to satan what satan loves most, eating dust. 

No?

Eileen
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Beloved

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2009, 04:25:46 PM »

I just want to add a small point for those who may remember another post where we discussed something that seems similar.

(2Co 4:4)  In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

The word used is
G2316  θεός theos  Thayer Definition:  1) a god or goddess, a general name of deities or divinities 2) the Godhead, 2a) God the Father,

versus the verse in the other post

(Joh 14:30)  [color=red]Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.[/color]

G758  ἄρχων  archōn  Thayer Definition:  1) a ruler, commander, chief, leader

This goes along with what has pointed out satan is a created thing and therefore like all worldly physical leaders, he has been assigned this role. This word is used for the rulers of the synegogs etc.

Yes Eileen just like his other creatures on earth who seemed satisfied with the riches and fame and sexual perversion...it is only for a small period of time...even for satan and his appetite for dust....in comparison to God who is outside of time and the family He is about to bring into this this is all but a vapor. 

We always have to remember and look back at the words in Esword etc. There are no capital letters or punctuation in the original Greek or Hebrw so you have to watch what words are used and how they being used. The translators bias can show through sometimes. They often use diferent words for the same original word when writing.

beloved
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Decky

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2009, 06:02:25 PM »

I was under the impression that it's God who blinds and it's satan who deceives, therefore I was trying to determine whether 2 Corinthians 4:4 is really talking about GOD being the one who has blinded unbelievers and kept the light of Christ from shining on them, because it's not given them to believe. Interestingly, in 2 Cor 4:4, Paul says it's the god of this EON, whereas Jesus referred to satan as the prince of this kosmos(system)in John 14:30. We know that satan is not the eonian God. Like it was said earlier, it's God who sends the strong delusion so that people would believe a lie(2 Thes 2:11), and it's God who imparted blindness to Israel until the fulness of the nations come in(Rom 11:25). This seems consistent with Jesus' explanation of why He spoke in parables, so that the multitude wouldn't understand and be converted and healed.

So, is it off base to believe that it's God who's blinding the minds of those who believe not?
« Last Edit: February 07, 2009, 06:48:44 PM by Decky »
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Ninny

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 06:18:59 PM »

It seems to me in John 12:40 He is talking about Israel. God blinded their eyes or their understanding, but I do believe it is satan who deceives and blinds the others. God has a purpose for keeping Israel blinded until He is ready. Wasn't this a quote from Isaiah? A prophecy concerning Israel not believing in Christ as the Messiah? I didn't read it really thoroughly. Sorry if I'm off course on this one!
Kathy ???   
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Beloved

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 06:44:24 PM »


Does this help Kathy

(Joh 12:39)  Therefore they could not believe, because that Isaiah said again

(Joh 12:40)  [u]He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart[/u]; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

beloved
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aqrinc

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 07:35:45 PM »


Here are the words of Jesus Christ to the disciples. When reading we can know if we are
still (them or you). Plainly to those that understand, The Scriptures tell about The Kingdom
Of The Heavens. Who is the author of The Scriptures and what do They (Scriptures) keep
saying about the Kingdom Of The Heavens. Ray has written so much about these subjects,
we need to keep reading and Praying for understanding.

Most of the apparent conflicts can be answered with further study since (no prophecy of
the Scriptures is it's own interpretation). Additional support from 2nd Peter below.

Mat 13: 10-23 (YLT)

10  And the disciples having come near, said to him, `Wherefore in similes dost thou speak to them?'

11  And he answering said to them that--`To you it hath been given to know the secrets of the reign of the heavens, and to these it hath not been given,

12  for whoever hath, it shall be given to him, and he shall have overabundance, and whoever hath not, even that which he hath shall be taken from him.

13  `Because of this, in similes do I speak to them, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor understand,

14  and fulfilled on them is the prophecy of Isaiah, that saith, With hearing ye shall hear, and ye shall not understand, and seeing ye shall see, and ye shall not perceive,

15  for made gross was the heart of this people, and with the ears they heard heavily, and their eyes they did close, lest they might see with the eyes, and with the ears might hear, and with the heart understand, and turn back, and I might heal them.

16  `And happy are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear,

17  for verily I say to you, that many prophets and righteous men did desire to see that which ye look on, and they did not see, and to hear that which ye hear, and they did not hear.

18  `Ye, therefore, hear ye the simile of the sower:

19  Every one hearing the word of the reign, and not understanding--the evil one doth come, and doth catch that which hath been sown in his heart; this is that sown by the way.

20  `And that sown on the rocky places, this is he who is hearing the word, and immediately with joy is receiving it,

21  and he hath not root in himself, but is temporary, and persecution or tribulation having happened because of the word, immediately he is stumbled.

22  `And that sown toward the thorns, this is he who is hearing the word, and the anxiety of this age, and the deceitfulness of the riches, do choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

23  `And that sown on the good ground: this is he who is hearing the word, and is understanding, who indeed doth bear fruit, and doth make, some indeed a hundredfold, and some sixty, and some thirty.'


2 Peter: 1: 19-21 (RKJNT)
19 And so we have the word of prophecy made more certain; to which you would do well to take heed, as to a light that shines in a dark place, until the day dawns, and the morning star arises in your hearts: 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is a matter of one's private interpretation. 21 For prophecy did not come in times of old by the will of man: but holy men spoke from God as they were moved by the Holy Spirit.

2 Peter: 3: 15-18  (RKJNT)
15 And consider the patience of our Lord to be salvation; just as our beloved brother Paul has written to you, according to the wisdom given to him,

16 Speaking of these things, as he does in all his letters. In them are some things that are hard to understand, which those who are unlearned and unstable distort, as they do the other scriptures, to their own destruction.

17 But you, beloved, seeing that you know these things beforehand, beware lest you also, being led away by the error of the wicked, fall from your own steadfastness.

18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and forever (The Aions). Amen.

george. :)


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mharrell08

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 07:56:48 PM »

Link to Lake of Fire series #15-C (http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html)

Scroll to section 'The Kingdom of Satan and his role as adversary' (I thought too long to post)

Satan is only an instrument in God's plan for creation...he can do nothing of himself. Whether is was God or god that blinded unbelievers, all is of GOD [Eph 1:11, 2 Cor 5:18, Rom 11:36, etc]. God is still the ultimate cause.



Marques



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EKnight

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 08:05:25 PM »

Satan is only an instrument in God's plan for creation...he can do nothing of himself. Whether is was God or god that blinded unbelievers, all is of GOD [Eph 1:11, 2 Cor 5:18, Rom 11:36, etc]. God is still the ultimate cause.

Good point Marques.  However, this leads me to yet another question.  I am having a hard time deciding whether some of the sins we commit are the workings of our own naturally carnal mind/ways, or is Satan dining on us? My understanding is that God created us spiritually weak and Satan preys upon the spiritually weak, therefore, how are we to differentiate between our own spiritual weakness vs. Satan's powers taking hold of us?

I hope this makes sense.

Eileen
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mharrell08

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2009, 08:18:26 PM »

Link to Lake of Fire series #15-A (http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html)

I was going to note particular sections, but the list was getting too long...probably just best to review the whole paper.

All the sins we commit originate from the heart, all of them.

Matt. 15:16-20  And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Jer 17:9  The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked...

Satan only tempts us with the carnal lusts that are already in us...that why he 'deceives the whole world' [...the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be (Rom 8:7)] but could not deceive Christ [...Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve (Matt 4:10)] & [Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth...(1 Pet 2:22)].

Satan tempts...we sin willfully.



Marques
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Beloved

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2009, 10:26:41 PM »

Here is a YLt version that might help Eileen

(Jas 1:13)  Let no one say, being tempted--`From God I am tempted,'

(Jas 1:14)   for God is not tempted  of evil, and Himself doth tempt no one, and each one is tempted, by his own desires being led away and enticed,

(Jas 1:15)  afterward the desire having conceived, doth give birth to sin, and the sin having been perfected, doth bring forth death.

there are two words used The one underlined is

G551  ἀπείραστος  apeirastos  Thayer Definition:  1) that can not be tempted by evil, not liable to temptation to sin

all the other are

G3985  πειράζω  peirazō   Thayer Definition:  1) to try whether a thing can be done  1a) to attempt, endeavour  2) to try, make trial of, test: for the purpose of ascertaining his quantity, or what he thinks, or how he will behave himself  2a) in a good sense 2b) in a bad sense, to test one maliciously, craftily to put to the proof his feelings or judgments  2c) to try or test oneís faith

The Creator and Father is not capable of failing, so this word applies to man who is a natural sinning machine, and satan who is crafty a liar and a murderer from the beginning.

It reminds me of the Native American  Indian proverb about how bad things occur in ones life..... "it all depends on whch wolf you feed"


beloved
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gene

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2009, 11:59:22 PM »

To All.........Has anyone concidered there is (NO) real being called SATAN, the word is an adjective (Adversary) and any can be an adversary. Jesus Called Peter SATAN,. Have you ever thought that Cain , who was a liar and murder from the beginning might have been  marked as SATAN. Because of His act of Killing His bother and then lying to cover it up. Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murder in the beginning. Maybe any one who is adversary of GOD is a SATAN. It all so say He is the prince of the power of the air, That could very easily be Man who controls all the world powers and even broadcasting all this evil we see and hear over the air ways. Maybe the Satan's and Devils are the people of the earth themselves, because God seams to hold man responsible for what he does, not some other source. Interesting subject.

peace and love....................................gene
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aqrinc

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 12:43:58 AM »


Gene,

Can you produce Scripture to back up that statement, below are just a few that refute it outright.
Someone needs to tell GOD and Make sure he informs Jesus Christ to stop using that name.


Job 1:6
There was a day when the sons of Elohim would come to station themselves
before Yahweh, and Satan came also in their midst.

Job 1:12
Hence Yahweh said to Satan, Behold, all that he has is in your hand, but you must
not put forth your hand upon himself. Then Satan went forth from Yahweh's presence.

Luk 4:8
And answering, Jesus said to Him, "Go away behind Me, Satan! It is written, The Lord
your God shall you be worshiping, and to Him only shall you be offering divine service."


Luk 10:18
Yet He said to them, "I beheld Satan, as lightning, falling out of heaven."

Rev 2:13
'"I am aware where you are dwelling-where the throne of Satan is-and you are holding
My name, and do not disown My faith in the days in which Antipas, My faithful witness,
was killed among you, where Satan is dwelling."


Rev 20:2
And he lays hold of the dragon, the ancient serpent, who is the Adversary and Satan,
and binds him a thousand years."

Rev 20:7
And whenever the thousand years should be finished, Satan will be loosed out of his jail."


george. ???

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Akira329

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Re: God or god (satan)?
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2009, 06:04:40 AM »

Hey Gene!
Here are a few scriptures to contend with

To All.........Has anyone concidered there is (NO) real being called SATAN, the word is an adjective (Adversary) and any can be an adversary.
1Pe 5:8  Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary(Satan or opponent) the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:
Who is the devil??
Rev 20:2  And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
What old serpent??
Gen 3:1  Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

Jesus Called Peter SATAN,.
Mat 16:21  From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.
Mat 16:22  Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.
Mat 16:23  But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.
I don't see where Jesus called Peter Satan?

Have you ever thought that Cain , who was a liar and murder from the beginning might have been  marked as SATAN. Because of His act of Killing His bother and then lying to cover it up.
Where is scripture to support this??
1Jn 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
Joh 8:44  Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Jesus said Satan was a liar and a murder in the beginning. Maybe any one who is adversary of GOD is a SATAN. It all so say He is the prince of the power of the air, That could very easily be Man who controls all the world powers and even broadcasting all this evil we see and hear over the air ways. Maybe the Satan's and Devils are the people of the earth themselves, because God seams to hold man responsible for what he does, not some other source. Interesting subject.

peace and love....................................gene

Hey Gene, we just need some scripture here, there is a lot of carnal thinking going on here in the statements you make.
I agree with Rodger.
This kind of thinking is all over the church.(Satan has already won according to their doctrines)
Antaiwan
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"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile"
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"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends."
- Jesus
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