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Author Topic: Scriptures for absolution and traditions. Mat 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23  (Read 5977 times)

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trupower

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Hello all:
I have questioned some churches (Lutheran, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox etc) on there scriptual basis for absolution (John 20:23) is there answer. For there church traditions they cite Mat 16:19 and Mat 18:18 which they state gives there church authority to bind and loosen here on earth. The Catholics take it a step further and believe they were given the keys of the Kingdom through there supposed Popes lineage to Peter etc.
I havent seen in Rays writings where he addresses these scriptures and doctrines. If he has would someone please direct me to where they are and of course any member of the forum that has some good scriptual insight on this subject is welcomed to reply. Thanks in advance for your help.

Trupower
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mharrell08

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Re: Scriptures for absolution and traditions. Mat 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2009, 07:38:28 PM »

Hello all:
I have questioned some churches (Lutheran, Catholic, Eastern Orthodox etc) on there scriptual basis for absolution (John 20:23) is there answer. For there church traditions they cite Mat 16:19 and Mat 18:18 which they state gives there church authority to bind and loosen here on earth. The Catholics take it a step further and believe they were given the keys of the Kingdom through there supposed Popes lineage to Peter etc.
I havent seen in Rays writings where he addresses these scriptures and doctrines. If he has would someone please direct me to where they are and of course any member of the forum that has some good scriptual insight on this subject is welcomed to reply. Thanks in advance for your help.

Trupower

absolution, noun : a remission of sins pronounced by a priest (as in the sacrament of reconciliation) [http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/absolution]

Matt 16:19  And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

Matt 18:18  Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven


Neither Matt 16:19 or Matt 18:18 say anything about the forgiveness of sins.

John 20:23  Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

remitted: Gk (#863) leave; forgive (this word is translated leave 52 times; translated forgive 47 times)

Other scriptural matches:

Matt 6:10-15  Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive
[Gk #863] us our debts, as we forgive [Gk #863] our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive [Gk #863] men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive [Gk #863] you: But if ye forgive [Gk #863] not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive [Gk #863] your trespasses.

John 20:23 is speaking of forgiveness...not remission of sins. Christ is the remission of sins.

Matt 26:28  For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins

Rom 3:25  Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Acts 2:38  Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.



Hope this helps,

Marques

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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Scriptures for absolution and traditions. Mat 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2009, 07:40:46 PM »

This has cropped up a few times now in the last month or so.  No slam...just an observation.  Ray has expressed the opinion that if the churches believe it and/or practice it, it is almost certainly wrong.  That's a tough lesson, but it is bearing out as true to me.

Mat 16:19 I will be giving you the keys of the kingdom of the heavens, and whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth, shall be those having been loosed in the heavens."

Mat 18:18 "Verily, I am saying to you, Whatsoever you should be binding on the earth shall be those things having been bound in the heavens, and whatsoever you should be loosing on the earth shall be those loose in heaven.

Those are from the Concordant Literal Version.  The other Literal versions I have access to are in agreement in the verb tenses.  The bold text is a direct translation of the Greek, the light text is added for 'clarification'.  The tense says to me that the action of loosing, binding, and forgiving originates in the Heavens, and not on earth.  The action on earth which Christ is preaching is agreement with God, not convincing Him to do something.  This is consistent with the model prayer.

I can't go much past the grammar of the verses, except to remember what evil the middle church did to the Grace of God in applying them.  
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.

trupower

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Re: Scriptures for absolution and traditions. Mat 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2009, 08:51:33 PM »

Thank you all input is helpful as these scriptures really have been used to justify alot of distorted scriptual teachings.....

trupower
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trupower

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Re: Scriptures for absolution and traditions. Mat 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2009, 01:57:02 PM »

I should have clarified my statements  better... Mat 16:19 used by the catholic church as basis for there church authority and traditions whereas Mat 18:18 is used by others (Lutherans, Eastern orthodox etc.) in conjunction with Mat 16:19 to authorize their church traditions. John 20:23 applies to absolution and they also quote  Mat 16:19 and 18:18 as complimentary scripture showing churchs authority here on earth...
Thanks again for any and all input..

Trupower
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Dave in Tenn

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Re: Scriptures for absolution and traditions. Mat 16:19, 18:18 and John 20:23
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2009, 02:37:24 PM »

When their misunderstanding, and misapplication of these scriptures serves their purpose so exquisitely, it would take God to wrest them away from it.  This is a case when knowing the truth dispels the lies.

In truth, they DO have authority in practical terms.  They may claim it on shaky terms, but their excercise of authority is real.  All one has to do is consider the people who follow it and what they do to support it.  True authority rests in Christ, though many are called and few chosen.  God's people are called to come OUT from under that authority.  It's that light which dispels the darkness.

Ray has an audio and transcript on Church Government in two parts.  He puts it plain in those.  What's important is what WE do with truth.  Give 'em a listen and let's hear your thoughts.
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Heb 10:32  But you must continue to remember those earlier days, how after you were enlightened you endured a hard and painful struggle.
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