bible-truths.com/forums

Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  

News:

Need Account Help?  Email bibletruths.forum@gmail.com   

Forgotten password reminders does not work. Contact the email above and state what you want your password changed to. (it must be at least 8 characters)

Pages: [1]   Go Down

Author Topic: God's will verses man's apperent will.  (Read 2021 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

odinpop

  • Guest
God's will verses man's apperent will.
« on: February 15, 2009, 02:27:28 AM »

I am new here and have read nearly all of Ray's material including responses to emails and I haven't seen this particular question raised or addressed.

Was it God's Will to have the Israelites wander in the desert for 40 years after refusing to go in to the promise Land?

If it was God's Will for that to happen then why is it recorded, For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said they are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways. So I declared on oath in my anger, They shall never enter my rest.í Psalm 95:10-11 

It sounds like God was angered by the Israelites refusing. How could it be God's will if he is angered by it?

Another series of events that seems to be contradictory to God's will is recorded in the episode of the Tower of Babel that all men spoke the same language before their creation of the Tower. Their Intent or Will was that they would build a tower that reaches to the heavens, Make a Name for ourselves (self-will) and Not be scattered (self-rule) over the face of  the whole earth. (Genesis 11) If this was God's will, why did he come down to discover what they were doing and decide to confuse their language and scatter them all over the earth?í

There are a few other occasions in the bible that have similar incidents, where God seems taken aback, surprised, or angered by man's actions. How can that be if his will is done all the time?

I am but a babe and would appreciate any help you all could provide.

Thanks,
Logged

mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: God's will verses man's apperent will.
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 02:43:19 AM »

I am new here and have read nearly all of Ray's material including responses to emails and I haven't seen this particular question raised or addressed.

Was it God's Will to have the Israelites wander in the desert for 40 years after refusing to go in to the promise Land?

If it was God's Will for that to happen then why is it recorded, For forty years I was angry with that generation; I said they are a people whose hearts go astray, and they have not known my ways. So I declared on oath in my anger, They shall never enter my rest.í Psalm 95:10-11 

It sounds like God was angered by the Israelites refusing. How could it be God's will if he is angered by it?

Another series of events that seems to be contradictory to God's will is recorded in the episode of the Tower of Babel that all men spoke the same language before their creation of the Tower. Their Intent or Will was that they would build a tower that reaches to the heavens, Make a Name for ourselves (self-will) and Not be scattered (self-rule) over the face of  the whole earth. (Genesis 11) If this was God's will, why did he come down to discover what they were doing and decide to confuse their language and scatter them all over the earth?í

There are a few other occasions in the bible that have similar incidents, where God seems taken aback, surprised, or angered by man's actions. How can that be if his will is done all the time?

I am but a babe and would appreciate any help you all could provide.

Thanks,

Hello Odinpop and welcome to the forum.  :)

Now regarding your question(s): ALL is of GOD

Excerpt from 12 God Given Truths to Understanding His Word (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm) [from truth#10]:

What then of all the supposed contradictions in Scripture? Below are a few examples of what many would call contradictions in the Scriptures:

THE RELATIVE:
THE ABSOLUTE:
" ...seek, and ye shall find... " (Mat. 7:7)    
"Not one is seeking out God" (Rom. 3:11)
"God changed His mind" (Ex. 32:14)    
"God is not a man Who changes His mind" (I Sam. 15:29)
" ...CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve." (Josh. 24:15)    
"Ye have NOT CHOSEN me, but I have chosen you... "(Jn. 15:16)
" ...whosoever doeth not righteousness is NOT of God... " (I Jn. 3:10)    
"ALL is of God" (II Cor. 5:18)
"Zechariah was righteous before God" (Luke 1:5-6).
"There is none righteous"(Rom. 3:10)
"Come unto MeÖ" (Matt. 11:28)
"None CAN come to MeÖ" (John 6:44 & 65)

To the carnal mind, the above Scriptures are contradictions, and therefore proof that the Word of God is not consistently true.

Even the greatest theologians in the world deny this truth that "All is of God," because they cannot distinguish the relative from manís doings from the absolute which is Godís doing.

In the first example man is told to seek but is also told that no man seeks. Which is it? They are both true. No man does seek God except and until God brings about circumstances wherein he does seek God. But He only does seek God because "All is of God" who brings about the circumstances whereby someone who would not seek God, now does seek God.

In the second example we are told that God changes His mind [repents], but are also told that God is not a man who repents or changes His mind. The answers are all the same. Where it appears to many that God felt sorry for ever having created mankind, He is in reality doing only that which He had determined to do from the beginning. It is only from manís perspective that God repented or changed His mind. God always knows the "end from the beginning," and therefore is never surprised or never thwarted or frustrated requiring a change in course or a change of plans.

A few years ago someone tried to trip me up with this verse:

    "They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spoke it neither came it into My mind" (Jer. 19:5).

Here, I was told, is absolute proof that God learns new things that He didnít know before. Nonsense.

This is a simple problem of translating. The word translated "mind" in this verse is the Hebrew word leb, and it means the "heart with its feelings," not the mind. The King James very often confuses heart with mind and mind with soul, as if they were one and the same thing even though there are different words for each.

Godís plan and purpose for humanity consists of many, many things which are not after Godís own heart, but that are, nonetheless, absolutely essential for the completion of His plan:

    "Say unto them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" (Ezek. 33:11).

This is Godís HEART speaking in this verse. But in the MIND of God, the death of the wicked was absolutely necessary, and a prophesied fact that could not be avoided:

    "For I will lay the land most desolate, and the pomp of her strength shall cease, and the mountains of Israel shall be desolate, that none shall pass through" (Ver. 28).

This is but another of countless examples in Scripture that show Godís mind and His heart. God takes no pleasure or delight in His heart over the horrible things that continually happen to humanity, but nonetheless, these things are absolutely essential to the fulfillment of the plan that God has devised in His mind.

It is absolute blasphemy to think or teach that God is the Creator of all that is, but then takes zero responsibility for all the evils of that creationóALL is of God.



As you have stated to have read nearly all of Ray's teachings, I would suggest re-reading through the Myth of Free Will (Parts 15:A-D) in the Lake of Fire series (http://bible-truths.com/) as well as the paper (12 truths) highlighted above.


Hope this helps,

Marques
Logged

aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: God's will verses man's apperent will.
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 03:05:10 AM »


Hi odinpop,

Here is some information about Israel in the desert, there really is a lot of what you ask about throughout
Ray's writings. It is scattered all over; so you will need to do a little searching and reading to get it.


Previous forum topic: Troubling Bible Contradiction:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7322.msg58264.html#msg58264


Excerpt from: EXPOSING THOSE WHO CONTRADICT

http://bible-truths.com/fulltext/fulltext.htm

GOD'S LOVE FOR THE WICKED DEAD

Let me show you some very easy to understand Scriptures in relation to the "wicked dead" and God's love for them:

Israel committed the most wicked sins against their God. "But I had pity for mine holy name, which the house of Israel had profaned among the nations, whether they went." (Ezek. 36:21). "And I will sanctify my great name, which was profaned among the heathen, which ye have profaned in the midst of them, and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, saith the Lord God, when I shall be sanctified in you before their eyes." (Ezek. 36:23). Where do you suppose this takes place, Dr. Kennedy, Heaven or Hell?

" ... I will take you from among the heathen ... bring you into your own land ... ye shall be clean from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you ... a new heart will I give you ... a new spirit will I put within you ... and cause you to walk in my statues, and ye shall keep my judgments...and ye shall be my people, and I will be your God." (Ezek. 36:24-28) " ... all Israel shall be saved ... " (Rom. 11:26).

Notice that GOD CAUSES all of these things to happen.

" ... the valley which was full of bones ... Son of man, can these bones live?... Behold, I will cause breath to enter into you, and ye shall live ... and ye shall know that I am the Lord ... Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel ... Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves ... and ye shall know that I am the Lord ... And shall put my spirit in you and ye shall live ... then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, saith the Lord" (Ezek.37:1-14).

george. :)

Logged

Beloved

  • Guest
Re: God's will verses man's apperent will.
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 03:23:08 AM »

Since George and Marques laid the groundwork I will add my 2 cents

Lets see, God  performed 10 plagues and manage to wear down a powerful pharoh, then He had them cross the Red Sea safely when the army persued them . This group of people murmured almost every step of the way, then when they were finally shown the land and 10 out of 12 spies advised them to quit and the people refused to trust HIm to conquer it.

Before that there is a bunch of people who thought they were in control of things and were going to build their way to heaven. They should have tried for the moon at least that was more attainable even in heir puny imagainations.

What a stench both of these groups of people must have represent to God. One group would resort to cananbalism later on in history and the other would later burn their own children to appease their gods.

Since God knows the beginning to the end, He could easily see the futility of their actions . What longsuffering God must endure to take mankind through the needed lessons and we all know that it aint over yet.

I think that the translators who used the word anger would have been more correct using indignation, which is anger about something unjust.unworthy or mean. Righteous anger is justified.

Being sinning machines both groups were doing exactly what they were doing given the circumstance that they were given by God. God know the final outcome but like any Father must grieves Him no end to watch His children go through the learning process.  


You also have to distinquish between the will (thelema) and the plan  (boulema) of God.

Look at your example Pharaoh, who did his best to resist the will of God by his authority as the Pharoh, but he could not resist the sovereign plan of God. Israel expereinced the act of freedom, but still would not trust God later.

Israel was held accountable for refusing to enter the Promised Land, even though it was God who had withheld from them a heart to know, eyes to see, and ears to hear  Their judgment was limited to 40 yearsóthis being a symbolic number and it is the extent of their authority, a generation.
 
Like Ray wrote in an email    Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart.  And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action.  Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.

beloved
Logged

odinpop

  • Guest
Re: God's will verses man's apperent will.
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 01:54:21 PM »

Thank you all for your help.  Eventhough I have studied scripture for years and begged God for understanding and wisdom, for me, reading is not always understanding. God has not given my a sharp mind nor a keen intelect and many of his truths come slowly and laboriously. On my own personal walk I have taken many a primrose path and have had to back track once I found the destination. So it makes for a long journey when you have to explore every path at evey crossroad, to find the correct one. So, even though I believe in my heart that God is absolutely Sovereign, he has not led me to the point where I fully understand and am not necessarily capable of "giving an answer to everyone who asks me to give the reason for the hope that I have. " For me I don't believe I truly understand something until I can explain it to others. At this point I can not fully give a reason for my beleif in God's Sovereignty.


God showed me the folly of the Corporate Church early in my walk and I have travelled most of these paths with only Jesus by my side. Sometimes he would grab me by the ear and drag me to the correct "narrow path" but a majority of other times he has allowed me to explore the "wide path" that I thought was the way, always to my dismay. I am hopeful that God has finally crossed my path with some fellow travellers that can walk with me and help to guide me at each of these crossroads and I am greatful for the fellowship.


Thanks again for your responses, it will take me awhile to absorb what you have each written, and I will follow up in a few days.

Brad
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
 

Page created in 0.094 seconds with 24 queries.