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Author Topic: Question on calvinism  (Read 3023 times)

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child in the making

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Question on calvinism
« on: February 18, 2009, 10:32:44 PM »

Been reading Rays paper on LofF #15 "the myth of free-will exposed"
It is very good and been enjoying and believing everything said but I'm not so familiar with Calvins teaching other than reading that he believed "once saved always saved" or that he did not believe in free-will.  Does anyone know what Ray was refering to about Calvin and the boys reading this verse in Jeremiah?
Still trying to understand cause and effect(Our Fathers way or no way)with no effort on our part.

The following is taken from Rays paper:

If man possesses a free will, then it IS POSSIBLE for him to choose good over evil. Do we have any arguments here? If a man possesses a free will, and he is presented with a choice between doing evil or doing good, then "free will" advocates (will all agree) that he has the ability to choose good. No he doesn’t. He absolutely has no such power or ability. And how can I say such a thing? Oh, not me. I did not come up with this. This verse is one of those "Thus saith the LORD…" verses. In Jer. 13:23 we find God speaking in the first person:

"Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? Then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil."

Too bad that Calvin and the boys never took a longer look at this little verse of Scripture. It would have saved many thousands of hours of unprofitable debate. Can the Ethiopian change his skin? No. Can the leopard shed his spots? No. Then can we or anyone else in the world who grew up with a carnal mind, on his own, by his own fancied free will, choose and do good? God Himself says, "No." If the Ethiopian can change his skin and the leopard his spots, then you CAN do good. But if the Ethiopian cannot change his skin and the leopard his spots, then you CANNOT do good. But, "Lord, who has believed our report?"

We saw from the Scriptures that Adam and Eve did not have free will, nor did Peter, or any of the disciples before their conversion. But what about after their conversion and receiving the Holy Spirit? This is what a number of large denominations believe and teach. They teach that it certainly is true that the unregenerate, carnal-minded man cannot have a free will to choose and do good, but that at conversion and receiving of God’s Spirit, they can have free will to choose to do good. Is this true?

"If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed" (John 8:36).

Free from what? Free to make "free choices" as opposed to CAUSED choices? This verse has absolutely nothing to do with a so-called "freedom of the will."

[To Be Continued]

I know of someone else who says the word does not teach "free-will" and also says they are not a calvinist(meaning they don't believe what he taught)

Any help would be appreciated.

God be with you

Child in the making


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Re: Question on calvinism
« Reply #1 on: February 18, 2009, 11:15:25 PM »

Calvin's teaching was evil.  He actually taught that God had to choose His elect but those who aren't chosen go to hell.  So he was basically saying that if you happen to believe in his god, it's because you were lucky enough to be chosen.  Otherwise, tough beans, you're going to hell.  Somehow though, you had free will once you were chosen.  So I guess this was said because those who believed Calvin were supposed to be the chosen.  So, might as well tell them that they are now responsible to god for their actions.  Whereas before they weren't. .... .but were still headed for hell.

By the way, Ray does'nt believe in freewill, I don't believe in free will and probably thousands of other people don't believe in free will.  But guess what else does not believe in free will.


Every effect has a cause.


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Re: Question on calvinism
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 12:12:27 PM »

Child in the Making,

The way I see it is this. If God is truly in control then how can I be as well?
If God's plans cannot be changed, as the Word states, then wouldn't my free will and everyone else's throw a huge monkey wrench in it all if we were free to do as we please?
Just consider it, billions of people doing whatever they please, and God still having any say in it all. Logically, it makes no sense.

And my favorite bit of logic was in one of Ray's papers when he said that if we had free will to choose good (like in the paper you quoted from), then why isn't there one example of one perfect person (besides Jesus)? Wouldn't someone, someplace, in all of time, out of billions of people, have chosen NOT to sin?



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Re: Question on calvinism
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 07:45:09 PM »

Basically, Calvinism is known by an acronym: T.U.L.I.P.

    Total Depravity
    Unconditional Election
    Limited Atonement
    Irresistible Grace
    Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)

These five categories do not comprise Calvinism in totality. They simply represent some of its main points.  To sum them up - nobody is good (T), God saves people due to no merit of their own (U), but only saves those He chooses (L), and the chosen cannot refuse (I), and they cannot lose their salvation (P).  This is the "no free will, but God sends people to Hell anyway" version.

Four-point Calvinism (which I was, many years ago) drops the Limited Atonement.  This is the "free will, but nobody will actually use it, so God still sends people to Hell anyway" version.  There are other flavors as well, but who really cares?  They all involve God sending people to Hell.

I'll tell you what, about TULIP.  Those five points can turn a person into an irrational five-twist pretzel trying to support them to their logical conclusion, but what doctrine of Babylon doesn't?

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