Carnality and carnality?

[Dave in Tenn]

I have a sense of the 'carnality' which is the mind at enmity with God.  The root of envies, murders, lusts, etc.  I also have a sense of carnality in that we are 'meat'.  We are weak, we get tired, we are mortal, we have the need to eat, etc--a more benign sense of the word.

Is there a difference in scripture and spiritually (or in our conversation here) between these two?  Or are they both 'enmity' with God?  Or am I missing something larger?   

[Daddysgirl]

Been wondering the same Dave.
Amazing how a lot of the questions I have are always asked on here!

[Beloved]

(1Jn 2:16)  For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

The word flesh is sarx, meaning meat, the lust of the eyes and pride of life are envy and self centeredness,

The fruit was not only good as food and nourishment for the body but something that could make you wise as God.

I do not seen any separation in these two....they are all part of this world...we are told not to worhip or bow down to any any thing...plant animal or other being or their craven image.

Eve sinned in the mind but also acted in the physical when she took it and ate it.

The Law was made to point to sin in a concrete way and it was all about "doing things", Jesus took it up a notch and said even "thinking about doing a thing" was sin

(Jas 1:14)  But each one is tempted by his own lusts, being pulled away and enticed.
(Jas 1:15)  Then that lust having conceived gives birth to sin, then that sin having become full-grown brings forth death.


beloved

[deftarchangel]

I always assumed that "flesh and blood" or carnality didn't exclusively mean literal flesh and blood, for the simple fact that Christ Himself appeared to the disciples in the flesh even after His resurrection:

"And He said to them, `Why are ye troubled? and wherefore do reasonings come up in your hearts?  See my hands and my feet, that I am He; handle me and see, because a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me having.'" And having said this, he shewed to them the hands and the feet.  And while they are not believing from the joy, and wondering, He said to them, `Have ye anything here to eat?'  And they gave to Him part of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb, and having taken, He did eat before them" – Luke 24:38-43

"then He saith to Thomas, `Bring thy finger hither, and see my hands, and bring thy hand, and put [it] to my side, and become not unbelieving, but believing.'" – John 20:27

Now mind you, I understand that just prior to these verses, the doors were locked, and Jesus suddenly appeared, almost literally, out of thin air, so I don't think His body was the same as it was before.  But because He emphasized His "physicalness" (merely perhaps to prove that He was the same person who had been crucified mere days before), I always took that to reinforce the idea that it wasn't our physical bodies, per se, with it's various nerve endings and stimuli reception and tactile responsiveness, that was the real problem.  Afterall, Christ plainly stated what the problem was:

"'Do ye not understand that all that is going into the mouth doth pass into the belly, and into the drain is cast forth?  But the things coming forth from the mouth from the heart do come forth, and these defile the man; for out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, whoredoms, thefts, false witnessings, evil speakings: these are the things defiling the man; but to eat with unwashen hands doth not defile the man.'" – Matthew 15:17-20

"'The good man out of the good treasure of his heart doth bring forth that which [is] good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart doth bring forth that which [is] evil; for out of the abounding of the heart doth his mouth speak.'" – Luke 6:45

I don't want anyone to misunderstand me here.  I'm not saying that the physical nature of our bodies is anything good or is exempt from condemnation, for "'the spirit it is that is giving life; the flesh doth not profit anything; the sayings that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life'" (John 6:63), as well: "And this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood the reign of God is not able to inherit, nor doth the corruption inherit the incorruption" (1 Cor. 15:50), but I think the heart of the matter (pun intended) doesn't remain so much with our physical nature, since even if we were to cut off our hands, or pluck out our eyes, that still wouldn't keep us from sinning. 

I may be way off, but for the moment, that's how I see things. 

Rob

[Dave in Tenn]

Rob, some of those same scriptures have been whizzing about in my brain, and I pretty much see things the way you do.  One, a sinful nature that has to be judged and die if He is to live in us, and the other our mere physicality that also has to die/be changed if we are to become 'like Him'. 

I don't know if there is any scriptural differentiation (different words or whatever) and that's at least part of my question.  John 1:14 has the Word made flesh (sarx).  Col. 2:9 has ...in Him dwelled all the fulness of the Godhead bodily (somatikos).  Perhaps there's something in a word search that will shed more light, although sin, flesh, carnal, and other terms seem to be 'used' interchangeably--at least in conversation. 

One verse that I keep coming back to is Romans 3:23  For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.  (CLV ...for all sinned and are wanting of the Glory of God).

Stick that with my current 'understanding' and it fuels the idea that 'sin' and 'coming short of the Glory' are not identical, and that one (sin) relates to the sinful nature and the acts and attitudes it produces, and the other to our 'inferiorness' to His glory by our being 'meat'.

There are other connections congealing, but I'll leave them off for now.

To be honest, I am not sure why this matters...except that I think it does.

[aqrinc]

Hi Dave,

I see no difference in Scripture when addressing carnality; here are a few outtakes from Scripture.
We have all read these verses; and Ray, has taught on them over and again; no not any difference.
The below are Scriptural, Spiritual matches, where are the matches for differences in carnality.

Gen 3:15 
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed (carnal Satan) and her seed (Spiritual); it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

Rom 8:7 
Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom 8:7  "because the carnal mind (that's the natural mind, but do not think that it says the evil mind or the despotic mind or the perverted mind, but carnal and carnal means natural fleshly mind of man) is enmity ( which mean deep seated hatred- hates God)  against God, for it is not subject to the (spiritual) Law of God, neither indeed can it be(made subject):" 
The only way (if you have a carnal mind) that you could become obedient to the spiritual law of God is, it's got to go.  It's got to go, because naturally of itself it hates God, it hates His law and it's not subject to it, and can't be, it's not even possible. 
Does anybody in Christiandom really believe that scripture?  Of course not.  They will tell you they do, but if you break it down, they don't believe in it at all.  Not at all, do they believe that.  And we will get into this, as we go through it.

Eph 2:3 
"Among whom also we all (how many?  ALL - including the great apostle Paul) had our conversation (behavior-conduct) in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were BY NATURE the children of wrath, even as others."

Jas 4:4 
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.

george.