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Why Did Jesus Miss one Passover? John 6:4
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 02, 2009, 05:51:06 PM ---Hi Marques,
Wow! :o
Once again we have veered a thread way off its original topic! ;)
--- End quote ---
Hey Joe,
Well, I thought we got here from the Passover accounts from John's epistle which you stated had a different account than Matt, Mark, & Luke...a different number of days. And then when you stated in Reply #16 the scriptures of 2 Pet 3:8 & Rev 20:5 (though with the spurious passage) as a possible spiritual reality of that missing day from John's epistle, then we got here, I think. 8)
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 02, 2009, 05:51:06 PM ---Just to clarify what you are saying I have to ask you if you believe everyone is raised at Christ's return, the saved/elect/chosen into immortal bodies and the rest are raised into their physical bodies and they, along with those who are alive at His coming (but not saved) live through the "thousand years" under the rule of Jesus and His elect? That these dead (out of the earth, sea and "hell") are only spiritually dead but physically alive through the Millennium?
Perhaps I can give a better response if I knew your postion on this.
--- End quote ---
Yes, the dead from the sea, death, & hades are only spiritually dead (and NOT physically dead) to 'stand before God'. Resurrection means to 'stand' or 'raise up'.
What I believe is what Ray has taught us from the scriptures. The time of the Millennium (or 1000 year period) is for a noble purpose for God's elect:
Gen 22:18 And in thy seed [Christ] shall all the nations of the earth be blessed...
Gal 3:8 ...foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee [thy seed, Christ] shall all nations be blessed.
1 Cor 6:12 Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world?
1 John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
Ps 104:4 & Heb 1:7 Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire
Excerpt from LOF #12 (http://bible-truths.com/lake12.html):
GOD’S MINISTERS ARE FLAMES OF FIRE
I showed you earlier that Jesus Christ is not only IN the lake of fire, He IS THE LAKE OF FIRE. He is the Divinity in this spiritual fire.
Ponder this:
Like Christ, we too are raised with a "SPIRITUAL body" (I Cor. 15:44).
We are in fact called, "the BODY of Christ" (Eph. 1:23).
We will literally "be LIKE Him [Christ]" (I John 3:2).
God will make us into "ministers [of] FLAMING FIRE" (Psalm 104:4).
We too then will be like our God, "a CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
God promises us that, "…the saints shall JUDGE THE WORLD…" and "we shall JUDGE ANGELS" (I Cor. 6:2-3)!
God tells us WHERE this judgment will take place:
"…they were judged every man according to their works," and "whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into THE LAKE OF FIRE" (Rev. 20:13 & 15).
Therefore, we, the Saints, the Body of Christ, the consuming fire ministers of God, the saviours of Mt. Zion, the manifested Sons and Daughters of God, along with our Head, Jesus Christ, also ARE THE LAKE OF FIRE!
THERE IS NO LITERAL LAKE, AND THERE IS NO LITERAL FIRE. Jesus Christ and His Body of Saints ARE THE LAKE OF JUDGING, PURIFYING, CONSUMING SPIRITUAL FIRE!!!
That noble purpose is to bless ALL the nations. As we will not all be sleep at his coming [1 Cor 15:51 & Matt 16:18], the wicked will also be alive at his coming. Remember, Christ asked, 'when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?[Lk 18:8]. This was asked with a negative connotation attached [see: http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm]...so the wicked will be alive at his coming. And if these wicked are alive at his coming, and to be alive during His reign with His elect, why not resurrect the rest of the wicked to also be alive during the Millennium reign (1000 yr period)?
But again, the elect are to be kings and priests [Ex 19:6 & 1 Pet 2:9], who are to bless and santify all nations...and the nations have to be alive to be blessed and santified, no?
The purpose of the elect, reigning with Christ, having eonian life is why the 2 resurrections seperated by the millenium period does not fit with the rest of scriptures...it is why, when comparing spiritual to spiritual, the phrase 'But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished' does not fit. The 2 resurrections are not seperated by any time period...the reason why they are considered 2 different resurrections is because of what kind of resurrection they are. One is spiritual, the elect being raised in glory...the other physical, the corrupt, carnal minded being raised into that same corruption...'corruption CANNOT inherit incorruption' [1 Cor Ch 15].
The elect are chosen for their high calling for a divine purpose: to bless all the nations...how could they fulfill that purpose with no nations to bless?
I have to agree with Ray on the Millenium being the beginning of Judgment...as I believe the scripture state so, initially.
Thanks,
Marques
kenny:
Marques,
thanks for the word and the link my friend,
hillsbororiver:
Excellent meat to chew on Dennis and Marquis!
I certainly would like to see Ray do a paper on this subject at some future point as there are so many questions that need to be answered in regard to this subject.
Where I have my biggest problem with all this happening simultaniously is that the salvation works are likened to a Spring and a Fall Harvest, the barley and wheat (spring) harvests certainly do not happen at the same time as the grape, olive, pomegranate, (fall) harvest.
There appears to be scriptural witnesses to more than one resurrection;
Job 33:29 God does all these things to a man twice, even three times,
Job 33:30 to turn back his soul from the pit, that the light of life may shine on him.
1Cor 15:20 But in fact, Christ has been raised from the dead. He is the first of a great harvest of all who have died.
1Cor 15:21 So you see, just as death came into the world through a man, now the resurrection from the dead has begun through another man.
1Cor 15:22 Just as everyone dies because we all belong to Adam, everyone who belongs to Christ will be given new life.
1Cor 15:23 But there is an order to this resurrection: Christ was raised as the first of the harvest; then all who belong to Christ will be raised when he comes back.
Please allow me to clarify an earlier point I made here that the differences between the the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John perhaps representing two distinct works of salvation (a two part work) even though only One Sacrifice was required.
Christianity teaches one "chance" at salvation, one judgment, one group being saved, a deeper look into the scriptures tells a whole different story though. (This was my original point)
Ray explains this better than I could actually;
SINNERS SAVED AFTER DEATH
Receiving salvation after one dies is a total impossibility according to Christian teaching. The Scriptural reality is that most of humanity will be saved in judgment after death. It is only the Firstfruits that are saved in this first life before the resurrection to judgment
Now there were many who did believe that Jesus was a man sent from God, and they followed Him. But why? Mostly because of His miracles and healings. They were taken in by His miraculous works. On one occasion Jesus said the multitudes were more interested in the miraculous bread that filled their belly rather than any spiritual food they could have received. But, just as quick as many were to follow Jesus, likewise, many quickly turned from Him. When Jesus told them that, "the flesh profits NOTHING" and "the words that I speak unto you, they are SPIRIT" (John 6:63), they decided they had enough of this Man: "From that time MANY of His disciples went back, and walked NO MORE with Him" (John 6:66).
And what do we see happening today? I heard again last night Creflo Dollar giving yet another version of the only sermon I believe he has, on how to get rich on this world’s materialism! Over the past year or two I have come upon Mr. Dollar probably thirty or forty times while flipping through the channels. I have never once heard anything pertaining to the gospel of Jesus Christ come out of his mouth—only messages of how to cash in on worldly materialism! Albeit, I must confess that I cannot take more than about five minutes of his preaching at a time. Apparently he believes that materialism is spiritualism! I have nothing against Mr. Dollar. He is a fine looking young man with lots of energy and personality, but I do not believe that he has a clue as to what the gospel of Jesus Christ is all about. The "treasures" that Jesus spoke of were not houses, cars, jewelry, and money. The treasures of heaven are SPIRITUAL.
And so we have those who were called of God and understood some of the good things of the kingdom of God, but then turned away from Christ. We have whole multitudes that heard Christ preach for years and never understood a word He said, and died that way in their sins. And we have whole nations of people who have never heard of the name of Jesus Christ. What will happen to all of these multitudes and nations that died in their sins not being worthy of the kingdom of God? God will JUDGE them, and they will all be saved! That’s what Jesus Christ is—HE’S A SAVIOUR—HE SAVES! He’s the best Saviour there ever was or ever will be. Contrary to popular Christian teaching, Jesus Christ is very good at what He does. He is a PERFECT SAVIOUR. No one will be lost when Jesus sets His hand to SAVE THE WORLD! You can take that to the bank.
http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html
TWO JUDGMENTS BY FIRE
Only two sections of Scripture speak of judging every man’s work in fire. They are Revelation 20 and I Corinthians 3. Earlier in this series we covered many Scriptures showing that Judgment is on the House of God NOW (from the time of the Apostles until the return of Christ), and that there is coming a later judgment at the Great White Throne. All humanity and all angelic messengers will be judged in one of these two judgments by fire.
In Part V we saw how God likens believers to a garden that is to produce fruit. God also likens our spiritual development to that of a building. We are to produce much "spiritual fruit" which will also make us "living stones" in a great temple prepared for God’s dwelling place. We will now continue our study beginning with the Foundation upon which all this spiritual structure is to be built.
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
Peace,
Joe
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 03, 2009, 06:29:26 AM ---Excellent meat to chew on Dennis and Marquis!
I certainly would like to see Ray do a paper on this subject at some future point as there are so many questions that need to be answered in regard to this subject.
Where I have my biggest problem with all this happening simultaniously is that the salvation works are likened to a Spring and a Fall Harvest, the barley and wheat (spring) harvests certainly do not happen at the same time as the grape, olive, pomegranate, (fall) harvest.
There appears to be scriptural witnesses to more than one resurrection;
--- End quote ---
There are certainly 2 resurrections Joe...but what makes them distinct from one another is the 'type' of resurrection they are, not a separation of time in between. That's why the Wave Sheaf, Spring, and Fall harvest are shadows of that...because they are different 'types' of harvest not because they occur at different times. And also, the people that participate in these 3 harvests (only Israel participated in Wave Sheaf & Spring while everyone [including Gentiles] participated in the Fall Harvest) gives further distinction [http://bible-truths.com/lake4.html (under 'Three Festivals and Salvation of All')].
--- Quote from: hillsbororiver on March 03, 2009, 06:29:26 AM ---Please allow me to clarify an earlier point I made here that the differences between the the Synoptic Gospels and the Gospel of John perhaps representing two distinct works of salvation (a two part work) even though only One Sacrifice was required.
Christianity teaches one "chance" at salvation, one judgment, one group being saved, a deeper look into the scriptures tells a whole different story though. (This was my original point)
--- End quote ---
The ages or eons is what makes the works of salvation 2 parts...the elect in this age and the rest of humanity in the next age, the Day of the Lord. There is no need for a millenium period to separate after this age and the scriptures don't seem to make that distinction either (considering Rev 20:5's passage being spurious)
Remember, when Christ returns, those that are His will be 'like him' [1 John 3:2] and will not have any carnality as they will be changed [1 Cor 15]. When Paul references those who belong to Christ being raised in 1 Cor 15:23, he then goes on to make the distinction between the resurrections throughout the same chapter...never implying a day or length of time between the two but stating their difference from one another through the type of bodies and characters we will have.
And Job 33:29-30...I get what you're saying but I don't see how that can corroborate 2 resurrections with a day or millennium period in between. I thought the Lord is prophesying about Christ throughout this chapter and His judgment as 'pit' is used literally or figuratively....as the 'does all these things to a man' could be in reference to judgment...especially considering to have 'light of life' on him...I would think one would need to be judged and purged for this light.
I do get what you're saying as a whole and agree it would be great if Ray could teach on this subject more...but this has been a good discussion nonetheless. I think we've beaten this horse pretty good though :D
Thanks,
Marques
hillsbororiver:
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on March 02, 2009, 10:02:06 PM ---
The elect are chosen for their high calling for a divine purpose: to bless all the nations...how could they fulfill that purpose with no nations to bless?
--- End quote ---
Hi once again Marques, ;)
I was going to let this rest after my last post but after thinking about the above quote for a while I felt compelled to make a short response.
There will be people alive at Christ's return who are not "changed" to spiritual, immortal beings. Perhaps those are the people/nations that will be blessed by Christ and His elect. I have also speculated that there will be some (OT saints) that will be raised in physical bodies (the dead raised at Christ's resurrection may be a type of this) to witness and experience the Millennial Kingdom that had been promised.
Also when Jesus told one of the thieves on the cross next to Him that he would see Jesus in Paradise (He did not promise this to the other thief or anyone else for that matter as far as we know) that this was not for everyone to experience.
Thanks again for your thoughtful responses.
Peace,
Joe
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