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[arion]

I have read Ray's materials and I'm sure it's been mentioned before but if it has I either didn't see it or it didn't 'stick'.  I won't use a lot of scripture but we've all seen them before.  On one hand we know that their are two seperate resurrections.  One for the elect when Jesus returns and the other at the great white throne.

Joh 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Mat 24:31  And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other...

Rev 20:5  But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

However the last scripture seems to be a conundrum.  He says here 'the rest of the dead' and yet the resurrection of the rest of the dead is still part of the first resurrection?  It does seem like two different but seperate resurrections.  One for the elect and the other general resurrection for the others.

However to add to the mix Jesus said;

Mat 25:31-33  When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

This scripture however seems to indicate of a general resurrection of everyone at the same time and then in judgment he seperates them into two camps.  From this it would seem that everyone is raised at the same time.  The elect into the kingdom and the rest into the LOF.  But Jesus (and the elect) are the lake of fire....

I know the scripture never contradicts so all these scriptures are true.  I also realize that Jesus taught in parables so these passages could be parables and not literal.....to try to boil it all down...

Is everyone raised at the second coming (which seems to contradict other scriptures), the elect into the kingdom and the rest into judgment.  Or are the elect raised at the second coming and the rest not until the end of the millenial reign of Christ?  And if that is the case who do those in the Kingdom reign over considering that it seems like few make it through the tribulation and into the kingdom age?

I'm just trying to get a better handle on how this takes place and wondering if anyone can shed any light on this or if Ray had clarified it somewhere and I missed it.

Thanks in advance!!



 

[Kat]

Hi Arion,

That part of the Scripture in Rev. 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished," does seem to be spurious according to Tischendorf’ list.

Act 2:20  The sun shall be turned into darkness and the moon into blood, before that great and glorious Day of the Lord.

1Th 5:2  For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

There is a number of Scripture that referr to the "day of the Lord."  So what I'm thinking is He could do quite a few things in that time period.  As the Elect could be raised 'first' and take their place with Christ and return to earth with Christ on the same day.  Ray does go into this a bit in 'Exposing the "Secret Rapture" Theory.'  Here is a excerpt.

http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm -------------------
The fourth time this Greek word apatesis is translated "to meet" is in I Thes. 4:17: "... we, the living who are surviving, shall at the same time be snatched away together with them in the clouds, to meet [apatesis] the Lord in the air."

Now I am almost sure that I can hear faint protests in the distance from objecting rapturists. Notwithstanding, based on all the usage's of this word apatesis [to meet], and we read them all, when someone went out to meet someone else, where did they always go next? That’s right, back where they came from. So if God is consistent with the use of this word, then when the saints of I Thes. 4 meet the Lord in the air, they will then return with Christ back to the EARTH!
v
v
We are the children of the promise, we are reckoned as the seed, we are SPIRITUAL ISRAEL.

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation. And WHOSOEVER shall observe the elements by this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, also upon the ISRAEL OF GOD" (Gal. 6:16).

WE are the true Israel of God! And it is WE who will rule the nations along with "ALL the saints" (I Thes. 3:13). Paul says,

"... the saints shall judge the WORLD"

And also,

"... we [saints] shall be judging MESSENGERS" (I Cor. 6:2-3).
-------------------------------------------------------

Christ and the Saints do return to "judge the world."

Act 17:31  because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead."

Also we have in Scripture many time "the resurrection of the dead," it says "the resurrection" or one resurrection.  There is no place that I could find 'resurrections,' as in more than one.

Php 3:11  If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

John 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Even this verse in John 5 does not seem to indicate two resurrection, but two part that could take place on the same day.

mercy, peace and love
Kat

 

[arion]

Thanks Kat;

So if I get what your saying is that the scriptures could harmonize if there is a general resurrection of both the elect and the rest at almost the same time if not concurrently, however even if the timing is close it could still be considered two resurrections or perhaps better yet a two part resurrection as we have two different groups of people resurrected? 

And if that is the case then would the lake of fire be during the millenial reign of Christ of Christ on the earth and not at the end of the next age? 

I was thinking about the LOF and what it would be like for those that have to go through it and just what it would consist of.  I saw something (that I thought was interesting) in this scripture.  In a few versions...

2Th 1:9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"

clv

2Th 1:9  who a just penalty shall pay, destruction age-lasting, from face to the Lord and from the glory of the strength of him,

edg

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

kjvr

The age abiding extermination seems to be from the face of the Lord.  Not that they are physicallly exterminated (not yet resurrected) during the millenial reign but that they do not have access to his presence as they are still in their sins.  I know that God doesn't physically torture anyone but I wonder what the spiritual chastisement would be like....

Then I was thinking what would it be like to still be carnal and in my physical body and have other men/women who were once as I am and yet these (the elect) have been glorified.  They are now without sin and beholding the Lords face and I am still in my sins.  The contrast between me and them would seem a a gaping chasm.  Would that not burn my spirit as fire?  To be confronted with every wicked thought I ever had, all the opportunities to do good that I turned away from, all the good teaching that I did have but  I was too busy to pay attention.  All my lust for physical and carnal things which benefit not,ect....

Forgive me for musing and that is what it is, a muse.  I don't have any pet personal theories to try to pass on to anyone.  I'm learning and hungry for more.  It's just my mind has been going on what do these things mean and how are they administered ref the LOF.  I certainly don't want the LOF and I aspire to be part of the elect but I know that most people will be in the 'many' and not the 'few'. 

[mharrell08]

Thanks Kat;

So if I get what your saying is that the scriptures could harmonize if there is a general resurrection of both the elect and the rest at almost the same time if not concurrently, however even if the timing is close it could still be considered two resurrections or perhaps better yet a two part resurrection as we have two different groups of people resurrected? 

And if that is the case then would the lake of fire be during the millenial reign of Christ of Christ on the earth and not at the end of the next age? 

I was thinking about the LOF and what it would be like for those that have to go through it and just what it would consist of.  I saw something (that I thought was interesting) in this scripture.  In a few versions...

2Th 1:9 who shall incur the justice of eonian extermination from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of His strength"

clv

2Th 1:9  who a just penalty shall pay, destruction age-lasting, from face to the Lord and from the glory of the strength of him,

edg

2Th 1:9  Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

kjvr

The age abiding extermination seems to be from the face of the Lord.  Not that they are physicallly exterminated (not yet resurrected) during the millenial reign but that they do not have access to his presence as they are still in their sins.  I know that God doesn't physically torture anyone but I wonder what the spiritual chastisement would be like....

Then I was thinking what would it be like to still be carnal and in my physical body and have other men/women who were once as I am and yet these (the elect) have been glorified.  They are now without sin and beholding the Lords face and I am still in my sins.  The contrast between me and them would seem a a gaping chasm.  Would that not burn my spirit as fire?  To be confronted with every wicked thought I ever had, all the opportunities to do good that I turned away from, all the good teaching that I did have but  I was too busy to pay attention.  All my lust for physical and carnal things which benefit not,ect....

Forgive me for musing and that is what it is, a muse.  I don't have any pet personal theories to try to pass on to anyone.  I'm learning and hungry for more.  It's just my mind has been going on what do these things mean and how are they administered ref the LOF.  I certainly don't want the LOF and I aspire to be part of the elect but I know that most people will be in the 'many' and not the 'few'. 

Hello Arion,

I would suggest reading the LOF series again particularly parts 16 A-E. I'll make a few points from your two threads to help:

1. There are 2 resurrections. The reason why there are two has nothing to do with when they happen (ie one before another). The just/few/chosen & faithful are raised in spiritual glory while the unjust/many/called/wicked are raised in the same corruption they died in. This is what it means to have 2 resurrections...2 kinds of resurrections.

2. Kat already pointed out the spurious passage from Rev 20:5.

3. The Lord does not 'separate into 2 camps' in judgment...He has already started that separation and it has been going on for the last 2000 years. This has been an ongoing process the Lord has been doing on the earth...choosing his elect few from out of Babylon.

4. To take a phrase from LOF #16-E, "ALL FIRES ARE THE SAME ONE "CONSUMING FIRE" OF GOD". Gehenna fire, eonian (everlasting) fire, lake of fire, furnace of fire, unquenchable fire. are all the same fire, all the same thing....and that Fire is God [Heb 12:29]. As the elect go through this same fire now, the wicked will go through this same fire in the next age.

5. 2 Thess 1:9 does not interpret itself...as no scripture is it's own interpretation. We are to have 2-3 witnesses to establish every word of truth as well as a spiritual match. Again, Ray goes over this 'eonian extermination' in the LOF series AND goes over HOW to understand the scriptures in his 12 God-Given truths to understanding His Word (http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm). No offense to you Arion, but we have more members ask about 1 scripture and how it does not harmonize with others because they ignore the principles taught in this paper.

6. No one can 'not have access to His presence'. It's impossible to be seperate from the Lord as 'ALL IS OF GOD'...'For in him we live, and move, and have our being [Acts 17:28]...pretty much impossible to separate one from that. 

But again, continue to read the LOF series again and again...if you are truly hungry, that series can feed you for the rest of your life.


Hope this helps,

Marques