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Author Topic: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?  (Read 2582 times)

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Triton

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Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« on: March 01, 2009, 10:20:37 AM »

Hello All,

I've been discussing a few things with someone on a forum which led me to Isaiah 34 and 35.

Chapter 34 is talking of the Lord's wrath upon the nations.

Chapter 34, verse 10 speaks of "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever."

Now, I am of a certain understanding of what is being spoken here. But I would like to test if I am understanding it in the right way. So if any of you have a clear understanding of chapter 34, could you please let me have your view. Or maybe Ray has already made mention of it somewhere?

Then, chapter 35 continues with, "The Wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them;"
Again, I would like to hear your view specifically on the "them". Who are the "them" of 35:1?
Are the "them" the same as those that are being written of in chapter 34?

I'll appreciate your help on this.

Thanks
Paul
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ecrement

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Re: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2009, 11:02:24 AM »

I look it up another translation and it said "Gentiles". All those who after fellow after pagan beliefs, not after the true God
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2009, 11:22:43 AM »

Hello All,

I've been discussing a few things with someone on a forum which led me to Isaiah 34 and 35.

Chapter 34 is talking of the Lord's wrath upon the nations.

Chapter 34, verse 10 speaks of "It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever."

Now, I am of a certain understanding of what is being spoken here. But I would like to test if I am understanding it in the right way. So if any of you have a clear understanding of chapter 34, could you please let me have your view. Or maybe Ray has already made mention of it somewhere?

Then, chapter 35 continues with, "The Wilderness and the solitary place shall be glad for them;"
Again, I would like to hear your view specifically on the "them". Who are the "them" of 35:1?
Are the "them" the same as those that are being written of in chapter 34?

I'll appreciate your help on this.

Thanks
Paul


Hello Paul,

1. If you don't mind, what were you discussing that led you to Isaiah 34 & 35?

2. Ray has written about the Lord's indignation, wrath, what 'unquenchable' means, and judgment for the just and unjust (which is what is spoken of about 'them' all throughout Isaiah & the rest of scriptures). All of your questions can be answered in the Lake of Fire series.

All of mankind has sinned [Rom 3:23 & 5:12], all must be judged and purified [Isa 26:9, 1 Cor 3:10-15], and thus all will be saved [1 Tim 2:4 & 4:10]...but each in his own order [1 Cor 15:20-24 & 1 Pet 4:17]. Isa 34 applies to everyone, Isa 35 applies to everyone...all scripture applies to everyone [2 Tim 3:16 & Matt 4:4 & Deut 8:3].


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2009, 11:48:03 AM »


Hi Paul,

We know this is talking about "the day of the Lord" from verse 8.

Isa 34:8  For it is the day of the LORD's vengeance, and the year of recompenses for the controversy of Zion.

Isa 34:10  It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up forever:

So we are seeing in verse 10 that this judgment on the people will not let up or be "quenched night nor day," not until they are cleansed. 

These graphic words that are used are metaphors to show what it will be like.  Strong's has the word "smoke" meaning literally or figuratively (vapor, dust, anger): - smoke (-ing).  It seems like the nations are not going to be happy about having all their lusts removed, not at first anyway.  So can you see how their anger would continually go up until they were totally cleansed.

Here is a section from the LoF no. 16 part D4 'Gehenna Fire Judgment.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D4.htm -----------------------

UNQUENCHED FIRE:

In Mark 9:43-47 two additional concepts are added to the teaching on Gehenna:

"And if your hand offend you, cut it off: it is better for you to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell [Gk: 'Gehenna'], into the fire that never shall be quenched: [1] Where their worm dies not, and [2] the fire is not quenched."

Christians have foolishly been taught and foolishly believed that a fire which is never quenched is in fact, an eternal, never-ending fire. This is decidedly not true. A fire which is not quenched is one that is not "put out," for that is what quench means. "Quenched"-Greek: kabah, "expire, extinguish, put out, quench." Who shall we trust on this most important doctrine: Christian theologians or God's Word? Here is proof that the phrase "shall never be quenched" never means endless or eternal in the Scriptures:

[1] "Because they have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods, that they might provoke me to anger with all the works of their hands; therefore my wrath shall be kindled against this place, and shall not be quenched" (II Kings 22:17 & II Chron. 34:25).

Did that fire that "shall not be quenched," burn eternally? Is it still burning in Jerusalem today? NO.

[2] "And the streams thereof shall be turned into pitch, and the dust thereof into brimstone, and the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever: from generation to generation it shall lie waste; none shall pass through it for ever and ever" (Isa. 34:9-10).

Let's get real for a moment shall we. If this fire was to never be quenched because it was eternal and endless, just how do we explain the fact that God said there would be owls, porcupines and hedgehogs living there (Verse 11)? And that there would be thorns in her palaces, nettles and brambles in the fortresses growing quite nicely (Verse 13)? Do these plants not burn in fire? Do wild animals and birds like living in fire and smoke?

[3] "See you not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem? The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger. Therefore thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched" (Jer. 7:17-20).

Well what have we here. If this not to be quenched fire is eternal, then we finally have a verse of Scripture that affirms that "the children" will be burned along with the men, beasts, trees, and fruit. Not only do Christians believe in "immortal souls, and "immortal worms," but now we have immoral beasts, trees, and fruit that supposedly will burn in this not to be quenched fire for all eternity.

Listen, it matters not if one contends that a few of these prophecies are for the yet future, or that they have been all totally fulfilled as Preterists contend. If they have already been fulfilled, and fires not quenched, are endless and eternal, then those fires kindled way back BC must STILL BE BURNING, but they are not still burning. And if this is a Futurists prophecy yet to be fulfilled, then we are faced with torturing not only immortal beasts, trees, and fruit, but CHILDREN as well. Am I going to fast for anyone? Maybe it's time to come out of Babylon.

[4] "But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched" (Jer. 17:27).

Again we ask: are the gates of Jerusalem still burning today? Or will the physical wooden gates of Jerusalem burn forever? Eternally? Do we now have Scriptural proof for "immortal wooden gates?"

[5] "And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the LORD; Thus says the Lord GOD; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein. And all flesh shall see that I the LORD have kindled it: it shall not be quenched" (Ezek. 20:47:48).

More immortal trees? And how can they burn forever when they are devoured?-'burn up, consume, devour' (Strong's #398).

In every instance of fire not quenched in Scriptures, it never stands for endless or eternal fire, burning immortal wood, immortal trees, immortal fruit, immortal beasts, immortal children and immortal men. Why then should we think that Jesus was speaking of "immortal" worms that die not and endless eternal fire not quenched? (Mark 9:44). It's unscriptural and it is absurd.
-------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Triton

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Re: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2009, 12:01:34 PM »

Hi Marques,

I mentioned that I am of the understanding that all will eventually be saved. The person I am in discussion with seems to be searching because he says that the "hell" doctrine is not acceptable for him anymore. He seems to start to lean towards annihilation, but certainly open for discussion - which I interpret as perhaps open for some truths.

So, I said to him to have a look at the way that some translations translate words regarding eternity, for ever and so on. (aion, aionios)

He then came back and asked me about Isaiah 34 and how this can not mean for an eternity without end. On which I looked at chapter 34 and 35 and suggested that if chapter 34 mentions that the smoke will go up "for ever" (verse10).....how can it be "for ever" without ending if chapter 35 speaks of "redeemed" and "ransomed" (ch 35 verse 9 and 10). Surely, if these are redeemed and ransomed, then the "for ever" must have ended for them. I hope my explanation of this is clear.

So, I'm not trying to argue anything with him. We're really having a pretty constructive discussion.

But now in hindsight, I'm wondering if chapter 35 is actually speaking of how GOD will save those from chapter 34.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks
Paul
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mharrell08

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Re: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2009, 12:22:44 PM »

Hi Marques,

I mentioned that I am of the understanding that all will eventually be saved. The person I am in discussion with seems to be searching because he says that the "hell" doctrine is not acceptable for him anymore. He seems to start to lean towards annihilation, but certainly open for discussion - which I interpret as perhaps open for some truths.

So, I said to him to have a look at the way that some translations translate words regarding eternity, for ever and so on. (aion, aionios)

He then came back and asked me about Isaiah 34 and how this can not mean for an eternity without end. On which I looked at chapter 34 and 35 and suggested that if chapter 34 mentions that the smoke will go up "for ever" (verse10).....how can it be "for ever" without ending if chapter 35 speaks of "redeemed" and "ransomed" (ch 35 verse 9 and 10). Surely, if these are redeemed and ransomed, then the "for ever" must have ended for them. I hope my explanation of this is clear.

So, I'm not trying to argue anything with him. We're really having a pretty constructive discussion.

But now in hindsight, I'm wondering if chapter 35 is actually speaking of how GOD will save those from chapter 34.

What are your thoughts?

Thanks
Paul


Paul,

I get what you're saying but the Lord does not save us from judgment...He puts us through it. Isa 34 is talking about everyone...everyone going through this judgment. It's just a few will go through judgment in this age, the rest go through it the next...but they're both the same: judgment by Fire. Though the one in this age is through tribulation & affliction while the one in the next age, the Great White Throne Judgment, is with wrath & indignation [http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm]

In like manner, Isa 35 is talking about everyone...but again the same principle applies: a few in this age, the rest in the next.


Hope this helps,

Marques
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Triton

  • Guest
Re: Connection between Isaiah 34 and 35?
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2009, 10:17:47 PM »

HI,

Thank you Ecrement, Marques and Kat.

I believe my understanding is then in line with the teachings here.

I appreciate you taking the time and responding to my questions.


Paul
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