> General Discussions
What part of this Book is not for you?
Daniel:
--- Quote from: chrissiela ---
--- Quote from: eutychus -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
FIRE + SAND= GLASS
anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is
GOD BLESS
euty
--- End quote ---
Well, we know that God is a consuming fire, right? :wink:
What about the LAW though....??? Think that might 'fit' in there somewhere too??
Chrissie
--- End quote ---
The Lord descended on Mount Sinai with Fire. The law is not of faith and it "worketh wrath", where God swears concerning His entering His rest.
Moses (the ministry of death) smote the Rock (Christ) Twice in type. Looks like "second strike from the ministry of death". Second death, being it hath "power over" and "its sting" is because it is the very power of sin itself. Its sting is sin (sting of death and its condemnation) verses in Christ who "loosed the pains of death" (who is without sin). In Christ there is no condemnation. I would ask in accordance to these two "Where, is thy sting"? The victory and overcoming is through faith the law is not of faith.
Twicedead is shown here and now. The first age, and age to come. These be living "after the flesh" even as Paul says ye shall die. But if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live (we live by faith and the effectual working of His power in those who believe). We live and reign by one, Christ Jesus, sin not having dominion over us because we are under grace. Sin has its reign and power under the law while we were yet in the flesh as death itself is shown reigning from Adam to Moses (old man and law). Not "new man" and "grace".
We are all "by nature" (the flesh) children of wrath like the rest while we were in the flesh, so we come from "there" as no flesh can please God. He seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Its the passing over from death (ministry of condemnation, living after the flesh) to life (ministry of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus) here and now. Believing not in Him and Gods wrath abiding on them would be where?
I agree, we are not appointed to wrath as much as we are not appointed to shrink back to that which makes nothing perfect. To simply "die in ones sins" and not SEE the LIFE here and now, for by wrath the land is simply "darkened".
I'm agreeing with Chrissie, and good word Bobby. I also see the sword cutting the picture in two parts or portions as even Craig pointed out. I too have been doing an extensive study on this. Seems we are all interested.
Daniel
Lightseeker:
--- Quote --- Mike:
After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?
--- End quote ---
Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right? Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.
Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt? Yes! Was she touched by them? No! Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar? Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them? No! Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world. So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church. The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does. But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'? But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.
MAT 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).
Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
REV 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.
The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying. This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something. Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'. It means a passive reception of something. Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling. But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.
Is this a possibility. Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?
Becky:
hey great find!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was listeneing to Rays talk on deedles website... the last 20 minutes of How Hard is Getting Saved part 2,....Ray says: We're going to live the seals"...and much more that seemed to jive with what mike was saying... im not sure why they disagreed... it seemed like they were argueing the same thing... only thought the other was against them... i dunno... Ray seems pretty sure about his talk here...... check it out!
Daniel:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker ---
--- Quote --- Mike:
After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?
--- End quote ---
Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right? Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.
Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt? Yes! Was she touched by them? No! Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar? Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them? No! Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world. So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church. The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does. But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'? But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.
MAT 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).
Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
REV 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.
The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying. This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something. Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'. It means a passive reception of something. Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling. But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.
Is this a possibility. Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?
--- End quote ---
Exactly its as two parts within one. One feels the evil and anguish the other is simply not hurt but both are there. Same with being chastened or Judged of the Lord in order to learn the difference in these things.
Those who threw in the three in the fire were consumed suffered loss the three in the fire felt nothing, no hurt or power over them. Protected in His presence as our Life is Hid in Christ in whom we are sealed (protected). One is doing the wrong and the other has done no wrong. One is protected the other consumed.
Daniel
Harryfeat:
--- Quote from: Lightseeker ---
Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
--- End quote ---
Excellent post lightseeker.
I zeroed in on part of it because this has also been a source of confusion to me. Is it not true that we are not overcomers by our own wills but by the grace and will of the Father.
Since God does the choosing, is it possible that all the elect are still part of organized religion? Is God still perfecting mankind? Is it possible that no more elect , except for possibly the apostles, will be chosen until God molds mankind into a better clay pot a 1000 years from now with a more spiritual frame of reference? Just some hypotheticals that hit me.
There are so many interpretations of Revelations I've read that it is understandable that many are confused and in disagreement.
Thanks for your most helpful post.
feat
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page
Go to full version