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[SteveB]

Here is how I currently see the "rift" between Mike and Ray...
 
Ray believes that we (the elect) are NOT appointed unto wrath, (which is MORE THAN CLEAR in scripture, is it not?) Mike teaches that we ALL must go through the 7 last plagues (that which FILL UP the wrath of God). But then Mike states that he will NOT have to go through the wrath of God (7 last plagues?) because he already went though it (when he was in Babylon I suppose?)

Ray quotes 1Thes. 5:9...

1Th 5:9  For3754 God2316 hath not3756 appointed5087 us2248 to1519 wrath,3709 but235 to obtain1519, 4047 salvation4991 by1223 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547
 
Now here is the word used in Rev. 15:1...

Rev 15:1  And2532 I saw1492 another243 sign4592 in1722 heaven,3772 great3173 and2532 marvelous,2298 seven2033 angels32 having2192 the3588 seven2033 last2078 plagues;4127 for3754 in1722 them846 is filled up5055 the3588 wrath2372 of God.2316

So we are talking about two seperate words. With two meaning!
 
Here are verses that have BOTH words in same sentence....

Col 3:8  But1161 now3570 ye5210 also2532 put off659 all these;3956 anger,3709 wrath,2372 malice,2549 blasphemy,988 filthy communication148 out of1537 your5216 mouth.4750

 Eph 4:31  Let all3956 bitterness,4088 and2532 wrath,2372 and2532 anger,3709 and2532 clamor,2906 and2532 evil speaking,988 be put away142 from575 you,5216 with4862
all3956 malice:2549

Rom 2:8  But1161 unto them that are contentious,1537, 2052 and2532 do not obey544, (3303) the3588 truth,225 but1161 obey3982 unrighteousness,93 indignation2372 and2532 wrath,3709

Not the same words. With different meanings. Witness by them being used in the same sentence.

So in Rev. 15:1 the word translated 'wrath' is not the same used in 1Thes. 5:9. If you read the Rev. 15:1 verse its the SEVEN ANGELS(the elect) who 'fill up the wrath of God up'. Where is it filled?

[bobf]

So is the "rift" strictly over the issue of whether the elect go through the wrath of God?  Or is it more fundametnal than that -- has Ray really changed his view on "is, was, will be" in some greater sense?  I can see the former, but I trouble believing Ray has changed his mind on something so foundational.  Has Ray said he changed his mind or is that  your interpretation of the situation?

[SteveB]

So is the "rift" strictly over the issue of whether the elect go through the wrath of God? Or is it more fundametnal than that -- has Ray really changed his view on "is, was, will be" in some greater sense? I can see the former, but I trouble believing Ray has changed his mind on something so foundational. Has Ray said he changed his mind or is that your interpretation of the situation?

From what I know Ray says that the elect dont 'is was and will be' go through the seal, trumpits, last plagues and that the elect are not 'is was and will being' the beast and false prophet. This is my understanding. If this is wrong then someone please correct me.

Mike told me that Ray understood and believed 'Mikes interpretation' of 'is was and will be' until sometime before the michigan conference about two months ago. Mike has been teaching it for years, which Ray knew and IS teaching in his '12 principles' paper(at least thats the way i read it). So I'd call it 'changing his mind'. I dont know what else to call it.

Peace...Steve

[bobf]

Strangley enough, I have been struggling with this issue of judgment & wrath for some time.  Why?  Because in the OT judgment & wrath are something that precedes redemption of God's people.  Yet the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.

Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.

Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.....

....
2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;  

2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
....
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.  

3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.  

3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.

Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect?  Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.

So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost.  So then it does apply to God's elect.

So I am somewhat at a loss on this.

[SteveB]

Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.

So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.

So I am somewhat at a loss on this.

Here is what i know. We are to keep the saying of the book of Revelation. That is as clear as anything I know in bible. It didnt say keep some of the saying it says ALL of them. And that is was and will be.

So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?

Timing.

We are not appointed to 'wrath' that those in the second death will receive. Why? Because we were judged by grace through his chastening(trails and scourgings) to foresake ungodliness in THIS LIFE, THE FIRST DEATH. Sounds like the first and second resurection to me.

The elect go through the plagues, trumpits, seals NOW. The wicked later. God works His justice in the same way. Out of our own mouths we are judged. The elect and the wicked. ITS THE SAME JUDGEMENT. IT THE FIRE OF THE WORD OF GOD. ONLY ONE IS EARLY, ONE IS LATER. One is called a firey trial (the first death) one is called 'the lake of fire'(the second death.) Same Fire, its OUR GOD. Same result Oneness in the Father.

Peace...Steve

[rocky]

Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.

So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.

So I am somewhat at a loss on this.

Here is what i know. We are to keep the saying of the book of Revelation. That is as clear as anything I know in bible. It didnt say keep some of the saying it says ALL of them. And that is was and will be.

So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?

Timing.

We are not appointed to 'wrath' that those in the second death will receive. Why? Because we were judged by grace through his chastening(trails and scourgings) to foresake ungodliness in THIS LIFE, THE FIRST DEATH. Sounds like the first and second resurection to me.

The elect go through the plagues, trumpits, seals NOW. The wicked later. God works His justice in the same way. Out of our own mouths we are judged. The elect and the wicked. ITS THE SAME JUDGEMENT. IT THE FIRE OF THE WORD OF GOD. ONLY ONE IS EARLY, ONE IS LATER. One is called a firey trial (the first death) one is called 'the lake of fire'(the second death.) Same Fire, its OUR GOD. Same result Oneness in the Father.

Peace...Steve

Interesting scripture.

Isaiah 30:33
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it

[chrissiela]

Steve,

All of those things that you mention (and those Mike and Ray have mentioned) are IN the Book of Revelation. Like the Lake of Fire, which is the second death, and the wrath of God.

Don't you think that this may be just a matter of two people looking at different sides of the same coin, thinking that they are seeing something different when they are not?

If we are NOT appointed to wrath and we do NOT go through the Lake of Fire (second death) then how do we 'keep' that part of the prophecy of the book?

Mike is saying that we DO keep it and go through it (but earlier and as a 'fiery trial' etc) and Ray says that we DO NOT because we are not appointed to wrath (which sounds pretty much like the SAME thing to me, as I am sure that Ray acknowledges that we go through that "fiery trial" NOW).

Seems to me that they are BOTH RIGHT, in a sense, and the argument is over how the words or saying are applied and what it means to "keep" the sayings of the prophesy of this book.

The Lake of Fire is IN the book, it is PART of the prophesy. YET, the elect are NOT HURT by it. Doesn't mean they don't experience a 'fiery trial' of their own now and it doesn't even mean that they are not a part of the Lake of Fire (as He makes His ministers a FLAME OF FIRE). Even those who are tormented in the LoF are tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB, right?

I don't think that it is as easy as making a list of all the things that are written about in Revelation and saying that every single person will go through every single thing written, as it is written. Because not ALL are cast into the Lake of Fire, though ALL will go through 'the fire' (or judgment) of God. (That is just one example that I can think of.)

I still think of these things as things that we are to WATCH for, as SIGNS OF THE TIMES, so that we may discern them... but not, necessarily, that we each go through those experiences and those 'sayings' in the same way or at the same time. Which seems to me to be what you are also saying? Even, perhaps, what both Mike and Ray are saying - but saying differently??

So I am having a hard time understanding exactly what the 'differences' are between Mike and Ray on this. And am wondering if they aren't a bit closer than they think, but just seeing the same thing at a different angle - so describing it differently??

Chrissie

[Beloved]

Everybody is throwing down the word keep and making it bold and underlining it. Try defining it before you say you agree with it.

Get your E=swods out and do a study on the word keep and keepeth, There are many scriptures (440) some with both the word keep and do.

They are totally differwent words. It doesn't mean live it. It means to guard put a hedge around. Hold it so precious that you will lie down your life for it.

f Christ lives in you, the old man is dead and you are not doing anything any more. Nothing you do will ever Glorify God it is Christ in you that worketh and this will Glorify God when everything is manifested. I do not think that God could be more blunt than referring to us as filtly menstrual rags.... duh.  

If we could not obey the 10 commandments ,what makes you think you can even begin to obey the Golden Rule as expoused by Christ.? One of the guys wrote a paper about this.  Only Christ with his perfect obediance to the will of the Father accomplished that.

John was the last living Apostle, he was given this Revelation and told to write it down. If you read it and have ears to hear you must guard it.

This is an awsome responsibility. The elect are being allowed to witness and participate in His plan. You are not the Elect just because you come out of Babylon . You need to run the good race not physically but spiritually. You need to mature in the Word and die daily in the flesh.

(1Co 9:26 KJVR)  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

(1Co 9:27 KJVR)  But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

No He did not just write to the seven churches in Asia. He wrote to all the called through the ages , That is all of Babylon. even when you were in it. When you are called out you then begin to see what the symbols reallly mean. The study of revelations is so layered with spiritual meanings and the papers that came out did not begin to scratch the surface.

Let the guys write their stuff. We may witness a great spiritual sword  (word) fight. But we will still need to be Bereans and search and hunger for the truth.

I love that word Truth in Hebrew is emeth, it is a feminine form of Amen. In hebrew it is an Alpha and Omega word (read right to left).
Christ is the Word,  the Truth and the Alpha and Omega.  

Beloved

[chrissiela]

Everybody is throwing down the word keep and making it bold and underlining it. Try defining it before you say you agree with it.

Get your E=swods out and do a study on the word keep and keepeth, There are many scriptures (440) some with both the word keep and do.

They are totally differwent words. It doesn't mean live it. It means to guard put a hedge around. Hold it so precious that you will lie down your life for it.

Maybe you have a different definition of "everybody" but if you look back about 8 posts you will see where the word was defined.  :wink:

f Christ lives in you, the old man is dead and you are not doing anything any more. Nothing you do will ever Glorify God it is Christ in you that worketh and this will Glorify God when everything is manifested. I do not think that God could be more blunt than referring to us as filtly menstrual rags.... duh.  

If we could not obey the 10 commandments ,what makes you think you can even begin to obey the Golden Rule as expoused by Christ.? One of the guys wrote a paper about this.  Only Christ with his perfect obediance to the will of the Father accomplished that.

Is someone arguing against that? Besides, you CAN obey the 10 commandments (to the letter) and still NOT "obey the golden rule".

John was the last living Apostle, he was given this Revelation and told to write it down. If you read it and have ears to hear you must guard it.

This is an awsome responsibility. The elect are being allowed to witness and participate in His plan. You are not the Elect just because you come out of Babylon . You need to run the good race not physically but spiritually. You need to mature in the Word and die daily in the flesh.

(1Co 9:26 KJVR)  I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:

(1Co 9:27 KJVR)  But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Amen!

No He did not just write to the seven churches in Asia. He wrote to all the called through the ages , That is all of Babylon. even when you were in it. When you are called out you then begin to see what the symbols reallly mean. The study of revelations is so layered with spiritual meanings and the papers that came out did not begin to scratch the surface.

I think that everyone here understands that the 'seven churches' represent ALL. And I think all or most understand that you will not even be able to read or hear (understand) what is written in the book UNTIL God gives you the eyes and ears to see and hear.

As far as the article goes, I did not read what came out before it was taken down, so I cannot speak to what it did or did not cover, but I would agree with you that there are many spiritual layers to it and it may not even be POSSIBLE to uncover them all and COMPLETELY understand what is written therein or what was 'witnessed' by John. But as we GROW in Christ (or He grows IN US) will see and hear and understand more.

Let the guys write their stuff. We may witness a great spiritual sword  (word) fight. But we will still need to be Bereans and search and hunger for the truth.

As many here are also trying to do. And news of a 'rift' between the two men has opened some discussion about what exactly their 'differences' are. which is only natural. I would think that to be part of being a "Berean", as well as part of ones "search and hunger for the truth"?

I love that word Truth in Hebrew is emeth, it is a feminine form of Amen. In hebrew it is an Alpha and Omega word (read right to left).
Christ is the Word,  the Truth and the Alpha and Omega.  

AMEN!

Chrissie

[chrissiela]

These seem to fit well with the revelation of Jesus Christ and with the KEEPING of those things that have been given to us by Him, as well as what He is KEEPING for us:

2Ti 1:7  For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

2Ti 1:8  Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but

be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;

2Ti 1:9  Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

2Ti 1:10  But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

2Ti 1:11  Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.

2Ti 1:12  For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

2Ti 1:13  Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 1:14  That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.[/list:u]

We don't 'do' or 'keep' any of this ALONE. It is only by and through HIM and the faith and the love, the mercy and the grace that He bestows on us that we are MADE ABLE to do or keep ANYTHING.

Blessings,
Chrissie

PS... yes, I KNOW it's not the 'same' word for keep as in Revelation, but it carries the same meaning.... to watch or to be on guard.  :wink:

[Daniel]

Chrissie I agree, right on. The Faith and love in Christ, as a freind of mine says,  K.I.S.S... Keep it simple stupid :lol:

The simplicity of devotion to Him. I'm into what HE reveals to me not what man do. Secondhand is alright but firsthand is much better.

I learned that "getting hand me downs" :lol:  

Daniel

[Steve Crook]

I have a question, so let the bombs fall....

What if the Elect ARE the Lake of Fire? Wouldn't they being keeping all of the Revelation of Christ since we are, as Elect, being steered by Christ who is at the helm with His mind?

If God is a consuming fire, and Christ came to do the will of His Father "who is in heaven", and Christ has clearly stated that we are as he was in this world, then being Christ through His mind, must make us a consuming fire?

Christ's mind = the Father's will and not his own = a consuming fire?

Thoughts?

[SteveB]

I have a question, so let the bombs fall....

What if the Elect ARE the Lake of Fire? Wouldn't they being keeping all of the Revelation of Christ since we are, as Elect, being steered by Christ who is at the helm with His mind?

If God is a consuming fire, and Christ came to do the will of His Father "who is in heaven", and Christ has clearly stated that we are as he was in this world, then being Christ through His mind, must make us a consuming fire?

Christ's mind = the Father's will and not his own = a consuming fire?

Thoughts?

This is my understanding. We are the Fire of God since were in Him. We are being burned, were burned, and are going to be burned. We also are burning, were burning, are will burn the people of the kosmos.

IS, WAS, AND WILL BE.  

Peace...Steve

[Beloved]

I could not have not said it any better Steve B, Got it in a nutshell.
 
Beloved

[Andrew]

Isa 33:14  The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with burnings eonian?

 
Isa 33:15  He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

[Daniel]

Isa 33:14  The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with burnings eonian?

 
Isa 33:15  He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;

Heres one Andrew :lol:

Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. THESE are a SMOKE in my nose,  A FIRE "that burneth all the day".

Daniel

[SOTW]

Strangley enough, I have been struggling with this issue of judgment & wrath for some time.  Why?  Because in the OT judgment & wrath are something that precedes redemption of God's people.  Yet the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.

Interesting how this has become an issue?

It is my suggestion Bob, do a study on the Judgment of Gehenna.... This has been such an eye opener for me and explains how God's wrath in the OT precedes redemption of God's people, and why the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.

Second, the problem is a false dilemma falacy, in which people attach this wrath to either the "Elect" or "Non-Elect". In other words, just like Grace and Law, many people mistake it as opposites, or that they even did the same thing.

I hope that more clarity comes.

So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?

I said I found it interesting that I actually have been studying this topic directly and because of many things I read from Ray, and a few of the members here which struck me to study it... But when I told you about the study, you got upset at me for teaching instead of fellowship, thinking I come to subvert some. So instead of giving me some comments on it, you totally disregarded it. Perhaps you remember this study? I was doing a large study Gehenna and Matthew 10?

I hope if you are still reading this, read Isaiah 33. I agree it has something to do with timing, but now I also notice you 'teaching' here... Something you critisized me of doing, and I am sad over this. I have found without much well-supported opposition to it, that not all Fire is God, but I am not teaching here. I am just finding it odd.

Rocky...Isaiah 30 is a good Scripture

"The breath of Yahweh, as a watercourse of sulphur, is consuming in it."

But now read Isaiah 33:11-14...

You will be pregnant with chaff. You will generate straw. Your breath is fire. It will devour you.

Become will the peoples as the burnings of lime, as thorns grubbed up, in fire shall they be ravaged."

Hear, you that are afar, what I do. And know, you that are near, My mastery."

Afraid are the sinners in Zion, quivering holds the polluted. Who is telling you of the devouring fire? Who is telling you of the glowings eonian?

Intersting how Isaiah says to the "Destroyer and Traiter who is pregnant with chaff and generates straw"'s spirit is fire and it consumes and devours them as well. So we find the breathe of the destroyer, traitor, etc. is a fire that consumes them. It will continue to consume them as long as they continue to be pregnant with chaff and continue to produce straw.

So we find two fires at work, one that is God and the other that is the 'Destroyer'. Though I am in no way insinuating that God has not planned this, or is not in control. I am just pointing out there is two fires which are breath.

Just some interesting things I found too. You may what to do a study on TOPHET, and find out how it is related to Gehenna as well.

This only a suggestion, this topic seems to be a problem for many, so I am giving my two cents as much as anyone else.

[eutychus]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;


FIRE + SAND= GLASS

anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is

GOD BLESS
euty

[chrissiela]

AMEN, Bobby!!

Very nicely put!

Blessings,
Chrissie

[chrissiela]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;


FIRE + SAND= GLASS

anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is

GOD BLESS
euty

Well, we know that God is a consuming fire, right?  :wink:

What about the LAW though.... Think that might 'fit' in there somewhere too??

Chrissie