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[jg]

I am wondering if the Babylon of today, which we are told to come out of, would be the Catholic organizational church? If you could point me to the answer to this question I'd appreciate it. 

Just wanting a more defined meaning of Babylon. 

thanks
Joe

[mharrell08]

I am wondering if the Babylon of today, which we are told to come out of, would be the Catholic organizational church? If you could point me to the answer to this question I'd appreciate it. 

Just wanting a more defined meaning of Babylon. 

thanks
Joe

Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2049.0.html):

Dear Chuck:
No, Babylon does not claim to be the Church, THEY ARE THE CHURCH.
There are the called and the few chosen.  The few chosen come out of the called masses of the congregation.  Babylon the church rides the beast.  The beast is the world.
God be with you,
Ray


Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6697.0.html):

Dear Lynsey:  Your question is really too big for an email. These matters do not have yes or no answers, or one sentence answers.  You will NOT be able to hold your own with a JW ministers or any minister skilled in the deception of Satan unless you yourself are very skilled in the Scriptures. I know how to handle these charlatans, but only after many many years of study and experience.
 
A women is a "church" in Scripture and Symbolism, and Prophecy.
 
The MOTHER is the Jewish religion from whence came the NEW Testament Church. The HARLOT DAUGHTERS are all the different churches and denominations which came OUT OF the Mother Church. It is the combination of all these church that is called: "MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT, MOTHER OF HARLOTS, AND THE ABOMINATION OF THE EARTH." And it it this Babylonish system of religion that we are to "COME OUT OF."  Sorry, but I can't take the time to answer any more questions on Revelation. I have 455 unanswered emails ahead of yours. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray
PS  "If there come ANY [be they neighbor, friend, foe, or Jehovah's Witness] and bring not THIS DOCTRINE [the gospel and teachings of Jesus and the Apostles], receive him NOT into your house, neither bid him God speed.  For he that bides him God speed is parter of his evil deeds" (II John 10-11).  It is essential that we obey these commandments.


Catholicism is only one of the many harlot daughters under 'Mystery Babylon the Great, MOTHER of Harlots'.


Hope this helps,

Marques

[Marky Mark]

I am wondering if the Babylon of today, which we are told to come out of, would be the Catholic organizational church? If you could point me to the answer to this question I'd appreciate it. 

Just wanting a more defined meaning of Babylon. 

thanks
Joe

Joe,from Rays paper;

The Lake of Fire - Part X
THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN
http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html



WHERE IS THE SYNAGOGUE OF SATAN?
The synagogue of Satan is located in the churches—in The Church!

"…you have tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and have found them liars" (Rev. 2:2).

Where did the Ephesians try those false, lying, apostles? In some pagan temple or church down the street, or across town, or in some foreign land? Or maybe in the pagan religion of the Roman occupation? No, in the Church. Jesus Christ says:

"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write… thou have tried them which say they are apostles [in the church of Ephesus], and are not" (Rev. 2:1a & 2b).

Where did Jesus know these lying apostles? Why, in the Church, of course. Of what consequence would "lying apostles" of some pagan religion be to the churches of God in Asia?

And where did Jesus say the synagogue of Satan is located? Same place—in the Church:

"And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write… I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews [in the Smyrna church], and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan… And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write… I will make them of the synagogue of Satan [in the Philadelphia church], and are not but do lie…" (Rev. 2:8 & 9; 3:7 & 9).

All seven of the churches were well aware of many pagan gods and pagan religions. These seven cities in Asia were filled with MANY PAGAN GODS.

The non-believing Ephesians worshipped Diana, who was associated with Artimis. Smyrna had temples to Apollo, Asclepia, Aphrodite, Cybele, Emperor Tiberius, and Zeus, and maybe most important of all, the Temple of Athena. Pergamum worshiped, Zeus, Olympus, Athena, Dionysus, Asclepius ("The Saviour"), and also the God-Serpent and the God-Bull. Thyatira worshiped the Emperor, Thyatiran, Tyrimnos, and Pallas Athena. Sardis worshiped the goddess Artemis, and both goddesses Artemis and Cybele were commemorated on their local coinage. Philadelphia worshiped the sun god and serpent gods, although Dionysis was their major god. Laodicea worshiped Zeus Azeus and Men Karou.

Were these the false apostles and lying Jews of the synagogue of Satan. Was it the priests of these pagan gods and religions of the seven cities in Asia that God was warning the churches about?

Since when are the priests of paganism called APOSTLES? Since when are the followers of pagan religions and pagan gods called, LYING JEWS? Since when are the temples of Zeus and Athena and Diana called, SYNAGOGUES? No, these false apostles and lying Jews of the synagogue of Satan are in the churches of God.

And isn’t it ironic that in the two congregations that religious chart-makers tell us had NO spiritual flaws whatsoever, we find those residing who are specifically called, lying Jews? No, Smyrna and Philadelphia, down through the centuries, have exactly the same spiritual flaws and heresies as did all of the other five churches of Asia.

THE THRONE OF SATAN THE DEVIL ALSO LOCATED

Now then, as the false apostles, and lying Jews, and synagogue of Satan are all located in the Church, where do you suppose we would find Satan’s throne, and Satan’s dwelling place to be located? Yes, that’s right: In the Church. Here is the Scriptural proof found in the messages to the church at Smyrna and Pergamos:

"Fear none of those things which you shall suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison…" (Rev. 2:10).

"I know your works and where you dwell, even where [the same place where] Satan’s seat [Greek: throne] is… were Satan [also] dwells" (Rev. 2:13).

Satan cannot imprison members of the Church unless Satan is in the Church. His throne is in the Church. His dwelling place is in the Church.. His synagogue is in the Church.

And think not that Satan merely makes an occasional visit to the Church. No, Satan is permanently in the Church until God removes him. The Greek word from which the translators give us "dwelleth" in the KJV is kataoideo, and it’s meaning is: "To house permanently" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary, page 136). Satan not only has his false apostles in the Church, and his congregation of unconverted lying Jews in the Church, and his synagogue in the Church, and his very throne in the Church, but Satan himself dwells permanently in the Church.





Peace...Mark

[Patrick]

http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

"Mystery Babylon the Great" is a CHURCH! But it is also A SPIRITUAL WHORE:

"For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answers to JERUSALEM which now is, and is in bondage with HER CHILDREN. But Jerusalem which is ABOVE is free, which is the MOTHER OF US ALL" (Gal. 4:25-26).

Jerusalem above is our MOTHER. Jerusalem below is also a MOTHER with children in bondage. Revelation speaks clearly of this Mother and her Children:

"And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will show unto you the judgment of the GREAT WHORE that sits upon many waters [peoples and nations and tongues]:

With whom the kings of the earth have committed [spiritual] FORNICATION, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication.

So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a WOMAN [a church] sit upon a scarlet colored WILD BEAST, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls [possessing many of the blessings of God including the pearls of God’s Word], having a gold cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication:

And upon her forehead was a name written,

MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT,
THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH"
(Rev. 17:1-5).

And now for one of the most amazing Truths in all Revelation:

"And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her [Mystery Babylon the Great], MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4).

GOD CALLS HIS PEOPLE OUT OF THE VERY CHURCH THAT HE CALLED THEM INTO!

"Many are called but few are chosen" (Matt. 22:14).

Few realize that there is a "church WITHIN the church." When God chooses us FROM AMONG the called, we become separate from their doctrines and sins. We are still "The Church of the Living God," but we are a peculiar people that no longer follows the traditions of men, which the many called who are building the house upon the sand continue to follow.

Therefore, WE WILL SEE THE BEAST that comes up out of the sea. We will be forced to WAR with the beast from the sea. And we will be OVERCOME by the wild beast. This really is serious business.

[judith collier]

Oh dear God, I mean not to cause any division just to ask a question. How could the churches last this long if the holy Spirit was not in them somehow or somewhere? And didn't the Lord tell peter, that upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it? Please be kind as I am just asking. Thanks Judy

[aqrinc]

Hi Judy,

That one is not too difficult to answer, the rock was peter; That Rock (Boulder) Is Jesus Christ.

Ray did the complete series on that in:  The Lake of Fire - Part VIII

Mat 16:18 (WNT) Weymouth NT
And I declare to you that you are Peter, and that upon this Rock I will build my Church, and the might of Hades shall not triumph over it.

Excerpt from: WHERE IS THE CHURCH THAT JESUS BUILT?  by L Ray Smith.

http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html

A QUICK HISTORY OF THE CHURCH BEFORE REVELATION

Jesus Christ said,

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter [a movable stone], and upon this rock [Christ, the immovable boulder] I will build MY CHURCH; and the gates of hell [Greek: hades, the unseen realm of the dead] shall NOT prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18).

What did Jesus mean that the "gates of hades would not prevail against it?" This word "prevail" was translated from the Greek word katischuo and it means, "to overpower." It is used but one other time in Scripture and here we shall see exactly what this word means:

"And they [the chief priests] were instant with loud voices, requiring that He [Jesus] might be crucified. And the voices of them of the chief priests prevailed… And when they were come to the place which is called Calvary, there they CRUCIFIED Him…" (Luke 23:23 & 33).

The chief priests "prevailed" [katischuo] by putting Jesus Christ TO DEATH. But Jesus said that the "gates of hades [realm of the DEAD] will not prevail [katischuo] against it." In other words, His Church would NEVER be overpowered to death.

And so, the Church that Jesus Christ built is still around today.

On Pentecost, Jesus Christ came back to His disciples just as He said He would. He came back as the Comforter. Jesus said that they absolutely could NOT receive the Comforter until He went away. Why? Because Jesus Christ IS THE COMFORTER, but not in the flesh, but in THE SPIRIT!

It was on Pentecost that the first members of the Church of Christ received the Holy Spirit Comforter, just as He symbolized to them when He blew on them, showing that He Himself would come to them in spirit by the will of God. Now for the first time, His disciples were truly converted, baptized in Holy Spirit, possessing the mind of Christ, lead into all Truth (Jesus) by the Comforter—Jesus was NOW BUILDING HIS CHURCH!

"But the Comforter [Greek, parakletos, also called the Consoler, and in I John 2:1, Advocate in KJV, and Entreater in the CLNT] which IS the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" (John 14:26).

The Advocate or Entreater in I John 2:1 IS the parakletos, The Comforter or Consoler of John 14:26 IS the parakletos,. and we are told that it is Jesus Christ Himself. Furthermore, the "Holy Spirit" that is said to come AS the Comforter is also Jesus Christ,

"Now the Lord IS that Spirit: and where the Spirit OF THE Lord [Jesus Christ] is, there is liberty" (II Cor. 3:17

THE CHURCH OF GOD IN CHRIST GROWS

The next mention of the Church that Christ said He would build is found in Acts 2:46-47:

"And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord ADDED to the church DAILY [3000 in one day, Ver. 41] such as should be saved" (Acts 2:46-47).

PERSECUTION COMES QUICKLY

"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution" (II Tim. 3:11).

Those are the words of Paul, and he should know, HE WAS THE CHURCH’S BIGGEST PERSECUTOR!

"And Saul [Paul] was consenting unto his death. And at that time there was A GREAT PERSECUTION AGAINST THE CHURCH which was at Jerusalem, and they were ALL scattered abroad through the regions of Judaea and Samaria, except the apostles" (Acts 8:1).

And just who was behind this persecuting of the Church of God? Answer: The other Church of God that was also headquartered in Jerusalem!!!

"And Saul, yet breathing out threatenings and slaughter [murder] against the disciples of the Lord [that would be Christ’s Church], went unto the HIGH PRIEST [of the OTHER Church of God, in the TEMPLE—remember back in Acts 2:46 where the Church of Christ was ‘continuing daily with one accord?’ Yes, that temple!]

And [Saul] desired of him LETTERS [letters of authorization from the highest level of God’s Church—the HIGH PRIEST] to Damascus…"

Letters for the purpose of continuing his persecution and slaughter of Christ’s New Church. I told you it is not pretty picture.

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law. And a man’s foes shall be they of his OWN HOUSEHOLD" (Matt. 10:34-36).

Do you think that maybe a man’s foes could even be of his OWN CHURCH?

george.

[jg]

Thank you all for your time.

I have read these teachings of Ray's before, but I guess over time I have forgotten some of the important things. 

Here is one of those important things pointed out by Marques.

"Catholicism is only one of the many harlot daughters under 'Mystery Babylon the Great, MOTHER of Harlots'."
Hope this helps,Marques....................

When I read that, it hit me.  The harlot daughters part is what I missed in my studies before. Referring of course to all the different denominations, including the RCC.
Btw, I wasn't trying to single out the catholic organization, its just that the RCC is the largest organized church, at least as far as I'm aware of.  I might be wrong there.

Another very interesting scripture pointed out by Patrick;

"and that ye receive not of her plagues" (Rev. 18:4). "

I certainly don't want to be a partaker of "her plagues."  And obviously those are plagues meant for the harlot daughters and those who are partakers of her sins.

Am I correct in saying that those "sins" mentioned in Rev 18:4 would be perhaps the belief in pagan "church" doctrines, such as an eternal hell as an example?

I'm reminded of what Ray said about how blasphemous it is for the "church" to teach about a burning eternal hell designed for those who don't hear and accept Jesus as their Saviour.  (Not Ray's words exactly, not trying to quote) 

It seems to me that believing in an eternal hell erases the very salvation Jesus brought to all mankind. (understatement?)  Again, is this an example of the "sins" mentioned in Rev 18:4???

I ask because I need to understand what those sins are, and I am only able to write concerning what I have been allowed to see. 

Thanks,

In Christ,,, Joe

[musicman]

The real church of Christ is female.  The whore of babylon is also female as it steadily broke off from truth a long time ago.  It's not just the Catholic church.

[judith collier]

Thanks guys, I will have to read everything you suggested and then come back but what about the Holy Spirit? I have encountered the Holy Spirit in many churches even being called out once, "what is the Spirit saying to you" Well, I was in shock.(never having talked in church)I was under the spirit strongly and was given a certain verse(not even quite knowing what was happening or how the minister could tell) except for the fact that my head was down to my chest. judy

[aqrinc]

Hi Judy,

Having run the gamut of several (at least 7 different (COG) movements); i always wondered why are these people acting so strangely. I have seen waving, yammering, frothing, fits, head banging, stomping and all forms of (spirit filling claims). Even thought i was odd for not getting any of the spirit, in retrospect it was a good thing for me to not get.

If our feelings are what determine our understanding of GOD, i am in big trouble. Good thing though; The Scriptures Say:

Rom 1: 20-22 (GNB)
20  Ever since God created the world, his invisible qualities, both his eternal power and his divine nature, have been clearly seen; they are perceived in the things that God has made. So those people have no excuse at all!
21  They know God, but they do not give him the honor that belongs to him, nor do they thank him. Instead, their thoughts have become complete nonsense, and their empty minds are filled with darkness.
22  They say they are wise, but they are fools;
23  instead of worshiping the immortal God, they worship images made to look like mortals or birds or animals or reptiles.

Gal 4: 8-9 (GNB)
8  In the past you did not know God, and so you were slaves of beings who are not gods.
9  But now that you know God---or, I should say, now that God knows you---how is it that you want to turn back to those weak and pitiful ruling spirits? Why do you want to become their slaves all over again?

Col 2:2 (GNB)
I do this in order that they may be filled with courage and may be drawn together in love, and so have the full wealth of assurance which true understanding brings. In this way they will know God's secret, which is Christ himself.

george.

[aqrinc]

My Aunt & Uncle used to attend a Tongue speaking Church.  I thought it was interesting that one of the Sunday school teachers took my cousin (who was 10 or so years old at the time) aside and said "Come on, we are going to TEACH you how to speak in tongues today"  

It's a farce.  People are basically given permission from their pastors to act like a idiot and claim God's holy Spirit is causing it.  What is holy about foaming at the mouth and falling on the floor with your eyes rolled in the back of your head screaming words you and everyone else in the Church have no clue to their meaning.  Pastors will scream from the pulpit that your praising God.  How did he hear every word from the 20 or more people who are acting in such a unGodly manner, falling on the floor or stretching their arms out and swaying back and forth?  Peoples vanity comes into play.  Plain and simple.  Each one wants to be more holy than the other so they try to out do each other by claiming they were moved by the Holy Spirit.  It's contagious.

Snake Charmers, Tongue Talkers, Catholics, Mormons, JW's, Baptists, etc all have their own form of claiming to be moved by God's Holy spirit when all that's being moved is peoples imaginations.  

Amen to that brother,

That statement will ruffle a lot of feathers, but The Scriptures do support it.

Tit 1:7 
For it is necessary for a Bishop to be a man of virtue, as God's servant; not pushing himself forward, not quickly moved to wrath or blows, not desiring profit for himself;

Tit 1: 9-16
9  Keeping to the true word of the teaching, so that he may be able to give comfort by right teaching and overcome the arguments of the doubters.
10  For there are men who are not ruled by law; foolish talkers, false teachers, specially those of the circumcision,
Tit 1:11  By whom some families have been completely overturned; who take money for teaching things which are not right; these will have to be stopped.
12  One of their prophets has said, The men of Crete are ever false, evil beasts, lovers of food, hating work.
13  This witness is true. So say sharp words to them so that they may come to the right faith,
14  Giving no attention to the fictions of the Jews and the rules of men who have no true knowledge.
15  To the clean in heart all things are clean: but to those who are unclean and without faith nothing is clean; they become unclean in mind and in thought.
16  They say that they have knowledge of God, while by their acts they are turning their backs on him; they are hated by all, hard-hearted, and judged to be without value for any good work.

george.

[Ninny]

I was watching tbn years ago and the pink haired lady, (Jan Crouch) was telling everyone to speak in their "Heavenly language" She said it so ethereally, you know, so softly like she was an actual angel speaking herself I'm telling you that I have been in deeply spiritual conversations with God and I have never been moved to speak in tongues! I guess it is because I was raised in the Nazarene Church and heaven forbid if anyone should get TOO spiritual back then!

When I was a teenager I went to the Pentecostal Holiness Church with some friends and WOW! I thought, "these people have taken a vacation from reality!" Running up and down the isles just babbling gibberish that even I as a young person knew couldn't have been from God! The thing that struck me most back then, and today I really don't even pay attention when I hear people doing it, was that the Bible says to avoid vain repetitions and when you hear it it is just like 3 or 4 syllables over and over again.

I have always been afraid to say too much for fear that what if it really IS from God and I am denying a gift of the Spirit? That's the kind of thing I guess you're programmed to fear when you are in the church! 
Kathy

[jg]

On the tongues topic, the church I use to attend had a speaker there "teaching" on tongues.  He took the word "utterred" , (can't remember the verse right now but it's something like "in words that can't be uttered)  and actually said the definition of the word meant, articulated.  I always thought that if something couldnt be uttered, then it couldnt be spoken outload.  Yet he tried to say that it meant you yourself wouldnt be able to make it up on your own.

After a lengthy explanation of what is suposed to happen when you're filled with the Spirit he invited everyone up front.  That's when he went into another "teaching" session on just how to speak in tongues. After that he coaxed those who went up to just "say whatever comes out."

  My thought was, if you have to teach someone how to do it, then it isn't of the Spirit of God.  That's when I decided it was time to leave, for good.  I havent been back. 

The preacher at that same church would break out into "tongues" at times while preaching, giving no interpretation, which the scriptures call for.  He usually did it when he was all worked up and really getting into it.  I've read what it says in God's Word about tongues and I knew he wasn't following the direction of how it was suposed to go.  So why do it if there's no reason for it, like an interpretation?  I believe he, and others like him, do it to make themselves feel spiritual, or to make themselves look spiritual to others.  If they can make you think they are more spiritual than you are, then you are more likely to believe them when they preach on things like tithing and eternal hell.  Its all about authority and "feelings." 

You know, I wish tongues were for today. I mean, we could all feel so spiritual when we did it.  But like someone else said, I can't rely on my feelings to know that God still loves me. Even when I let Him down and feel awful about falling short of the mark of the high calling, I have learned that He DOES still love me. Priceless....

[Marky Mark]

jg, if you dont mind . An email to Ray

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4162.0.html


> Dear Mr. L. Ray
    > what you wrote about speaking in tongues interests me , could
    > you please answer when you can my question i'm having trouble with. In cor. 14:2
    > , i'd like you to tell me what that means if you would, thank you for your time,
    > i know it's alot to ask you to stop and answer, but i would definately
    > appreciate it. God bless you
     
    Dear Readers:
    The overly-weak in the spirit Corinthians were given a marvelous gift of speaking in
    a language that they did not know. Now then, there was two ways this gift could be
    used: [1]  One could be selfish and "edify himself" (Verses 2 and 4) or he could use it
    to "prophesy [inspired speaking] to the "edification, and exhortation, and comfort" of
    the entire congregation, which REQUIRED AN INTERPRETER (Verse 5).
     
    Most Pentecostal "tongue talkers" don't even speak in a language, and they certainly
    do not edify the congregation.  This gift is like a father who has five sacks of grocery,
    but eats it all by himself not sharing any of it with his hungry family. Yes, HIS belly is
    filled, and HIS body is nourished, and HIS cravings are satisfied, but who care anything
    about HIS FAMILY?
     
    Listen: My article on speaking in tongues will not persuade one single person to give
    up this lust of the carnal mind. It takes a miracle from God.
     
    God be with you,
    Ray





Peace...Mark