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[TheRysta]

Hi guys. I'm sixteen and I started to get a keen interest in God and Christ in about December. I've always been a very deep and philosophical thinker unlike most teens my age. Before then I was an atheist agnostic but I was nudged to consider God. It couldn't have happened at a worse time... I had just been on a school trip to see Auschwitz and I was very depressed about suffering. Because I am pessimistic I started having massive incapacitating fears about hell, but Ray's site was one of the first I came across when I started to look up on the topic.

Over the past two months I've done a lot of research into the bible, it's origins and church history. I can honestly say I've learned more about Christianity in the past couple of weeks than I ever have in my whole life. I was not brought up religiously myself and the only information I really had was from my mother's side of the family who are mormons.

Ray really surprised me in the extent of his study. I was already a determinist so I could grasp the whole free will thing easily. However, although the scriptural evidence is against hell is very large, I still find it very hard to shake off my mind. This is mainly due to people such as Bill Wiese who claim to have been to hell in a vision. I believe him, because I know that out-of-body experiences are real, and it really shakes me up. It's taken a while just to tell myself that it was a bad dream, but I'm glad to say that ever since March began I've been getting a lot better and more optimistic. As Richard Dawkins once said, "The sheer horribleness of hell as depicted by many Christians is maximised to account for it's implausibility". He might be an atheist, but that's one of the truest things I've ever heard come from his mouth.

I hope to discuss Ray's ideas, but mainly I will just be asking for info and opinions. I am no bible scholar, I've never read it myself, so there's still a heck of a lot I don't know and understand.

- Ryan

[Ninny]

Hey Ryan!
Welcome! I'm glad you joined in with the rest of us here who have learned a lot in a short time!
Jump in with both feet and be ready to learn a LOT more stuff! You just need to learn about what God says and not a lot about what men teach! So you may be at an advantage here you may not have to UNLEARN as much as the rest of us!
Kathy

[mharrell08]

Welcome to the forum Ryan. 


Marques

[Falconn003]

Welcome to the Forum


Rodger

[aqrinc]

Hi Ryan,

Welcome, you are learning because GOD Wills It for you. Do take a bit of time to read and learn
the Scriptures when you can. It will give you a much better perspective on things. I have read
some of Dawkins work and keep it to remind me of 2 things. 1. How deluded i was when i thought
i was wise; and 2. Balaam's Donkey could see when he (a great fortune teller) was blind as a bat
in the daylight.

george.

[cjwood]

yo yo ryan  . welcome to our forum. you will learn much here. just stay teachable. as aqr/george said, you are learning because God wills it for you. you were led to bible-truths and ray's writings because God led you here. take it in baby steps and you will learn in giant leaps as time goes by. as ninny/kathy said you don't have as much to unlearn as most of us, but i guarantee you have much to learn, just like the rest of us here. and with the help of the Spirit within us we all will be shown the unparalleled Truths of the scriptures hidden therein. if you really stop to think about what God has shown those whom He knew would believe, it will shake you to your very core in reverence for our Father and our Brother Jesus Christ.

cheers,
claudia

[daywalker]

Welcome Ryan,

It's funny that you mentioned Bill Wiese. Ray does an excellent rebuttal on his so-called out-of-body experience. You should check it out:


July 2008 Bible Study 23 Minutes in Hell
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 07-06-08 Pt_1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 07-06-08 Pt_2.mp3


For more of Ray's Audio teachings:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,13.0.html


Here are the Transcripts for most of his Audio:

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html


Enjoy, bro.

- Daywalker.


PS: There are no 'bible scholars' here, so you're not alone. 

[musicman]

I believe most out of body experiences are inspired by Satan.  They are obviously not based on scripture so they cannot be real.  There are some that are out right lies.  This is easy enough to determine.  What is the motivation for them ($$$)?  How much of these so called visions come directly out of misunderstandings of scripture and generally accepted paganism of Christians?  How consistent are they?  They are never consistent and the very worst so called experiences are described with so many features not mentioned by more than one of them.  They talk about worms covering people (seven youths), bodies ripped apart (Wiese), and descriptions of fire from so called surgery patients (Rawlings).  The one thing these three have in common is the ching $$.  There are those that I don't believe are made up though.

I also like that quote by Dawkins.  It is very true.  And it came from a very smart man.  This further shows that very smart people can be very blind.  The man is convinced that we evolved from a single celled organism, probably coming together originally in sea slime.

[kenny]

ryan

welcome to BT

[Dave in Tenn]

Hey Ryan.  Welcome to the Forum. 

[Marlene]

Hi Ryan, Welcome, and hope you learn alot about the Savior of The World.

In His Love,
Marlene

[iris]

Hi Ryan,

Welcome to the forum!


Iris

[Mando]

welcome! remember one thing.....study God's heart and you wont be deceived.
                                                                                                   PRAISE HIM!
                                                                                                         mando

[TheRysta]

Welcome Ryan,

It's funny that you mentioned Bill Wiese. Ray does an excellent rebuttal on his so-called out-of-body experience. You should check it out:


July 2008 Bible Study 23 Minutes in Hell
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 07-06-08 Pt_1.mp3
http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible Study 07-06-08 Pt_2.mp

THANKS!!! I didn't even know Ray had heard about that. I couldn't find any rebuttal to such experiences other than the odd e-mail reply.

EDIT: Just noticed that the links don't work unfortionately. Is there another way I can find them? Ta.

I believe most out of body experiences are inspired by Satan.  They are obviously not based on scripture so they cannot be real.

Out of body experiences are real, I know because I have had them. The only problem is, can we seperate the 'genuine' ones from the 'real' ones? For example, how do I know that my OBE was a REAL OBE or just a DREAM OF an OBE? I for one believe that genuine OBEs are possible. Some people can OBE out of shock or when they faint, it is very common. I believe this shows that we must have a higher self (or dare I say, 'guardian angel' as it has been popularised). In my OBEs however, I never actually saw my body. I felt vibrations, I was taken out of my body, but when I looked around it wasn't there. How strange...

I guess that for now OBEs are on the most part a mystery to us. We have no idea what's pulling our strings in the higher dimensions, so we have no idea which experiences are valid or not.

The author Anthony Peake has a book entitled, "Is there life after death?" in which he attempts to explain such phenomena. It's an extremely interesting read, if a little mind-boggling.

[mharrell08]

Out of body experiences are real, I know because I have had them. The only problem is, can we seperate the 'genuine' ones from the 'real' ones? For example, how do I know that my OBE was a REAL OBE or just a DREAM OF an OBE? I for one believe that genuine OBEs are possible. Some people can OBE out of shock or when they faint, it is very common. I believe this shows that we must have a higher self (or dare I say, 'guardian angel' as it has been popularised). In my OBEs however, I never actually saw my body. I felt vibrations, I was taken out of my body, but when I looked around it wasn't there. How strange...

I guess that for now OBEs are on the most part a mystery to us. We have no idea what's pulling our strings in the higher dimensions, so we have no idea which experiences are valid or not.

The author Anthony Peake has a book entitled, "Is there life after death?" in which he attempts to explain such phenomena. It's an extremely interesting read, if a little mind-boggling.

Ryan,

A human being is a living soul, which consists of the spirit of God & a body [Gen 3:7]...therefore, an out of body experience is impossible. We do not tolerate heresy and unscriptural doctrines from any members, no matter their age or level of understanding. Hope you understand.


Marques

[TheRysta]

Ryan,

A human being is a living soul, which consists of the spirit of God & a body [Gen 3:7]...therefore, an out of body experience is impossible. We do not tolerate heresy and unscriptural doctrines from any members, no matter their age or level of understanding. Hope you understand.


Marques

Soz, I had no idea that OBEs were unscriptural. Like I've said I personally have experienced nothing I could call genuinely being out of my body. All I want to get across is that the experience itself is real. I did feel like I had come out of my body, but I am not suggesting that I actually had. The mind does have such a capacity to play tricks on you. The people who mistake OBEs for astral projection must simply be unable to differentiate between reality and imagination.

[cherokee]

Hey Rayn,

Welcome to the forum.


Suzie

[Marky Mark]

Ryan,

  Hello and welcome to the forums.

  As Marques has stated, the forum here is scripturally based ,not man made doctrines or evil provocations of the world.I am confident that all the members here will go to bat for you in the spiritual truths.
 
  Again welcome.



Peace...Mark
   

[daywalker]

Soz, I had no idea that OBEs were unscriptural. Like I've said I personally have experienced nothing I could call genuinely being out of my body. All I want to get across is that the experience itself is real. I did feel like I had come out of my body, but I am not suggesting that I actually had. The mind does have such a capacity to play tricks on you. The people who mistake OBEs for astral projection must simply be unable to differentiate between reality and imagination.

Hey Ryan,

There's a difference between literally coming out of your body [which is impossible, both Scripturally and Scientifically], and having a 'dream' or a 'vision', in which you appear to be out of your body [very possible, both Scripturally and Scientifically].

As for those links, I'm sorry that they didn't work [I checked them too, weird  ]

Well, if you are on BibleTruths Forum home page, go to "Introductions, Announcements, and More of Ray's Teachings", then you will see a link for "Ray's Audio" and "Transcripts of Ray's Audio..." If you go into "Ray's Audio" and click on the "2008" you will see a study titled: "July 2008 Bible Study 23 Minutes in Hell". That's the one where Ray talks about this Bill [not so] Wiese guy. 


Let me know if you have trouble finding it, buddy.

- Daywalker.

[Dave in Tenn]

Yep...the mind does play tricks.

I had an experience as a late-teenager at the Dentist--if there was ever a time one might want to be 'out of their body' its in the Dentist's chair.   

Maybe it was the nitrous oxide, but I saw myself 'out of body' shrunk down and sitting on one of my back teeth watching as the drill made short work of a molar.  I could have invested in that 'vision' a lot of things, and for certain there would have been an author to 'explain' what had happened in deep religious or philosophical terms for a price.  I might could have even taken the experience and turned it into a bit of a money-making 'ministry' for myself had there been a Jerry Springer or TBN to help launch it.  But I just chalked it up to a vivid imagination and to having been raised in front of a television.  I think I was right.

A surprisingly high percentage of people claim to have been abducted by aliens as well.  The mind does play tricks, and far too many of them are nasty.  I hope you can manage to hear that audio.