An Experience of Evil, Why?

[aqrinc]

This entire experience of evil is not to perfect our soul; but rather through trials and tribulation to humble us.
Ray has done a lot of work on this subject, it is worth spending a few hours on studying. Also there are many
good threads from prior discussions over the last couple years.

The Father's Will: 2006 Mobile Conference.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3720.msg27960.html#msg27960

Ecc 1:13 (CLV)
I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

We are not dragged out of Babylon just to spread it (babylonish works) wherever we go, name it and claim it,
is far from our calling. The Apostles spent their lives getting this message out to the Churches (each individual Church).
Here is an example below of the real calling; but remember; we must endure through much tribulation, to the end.

Act 14: 21-22 (MKJV)
21  And preaching the gospel to that city, and having made many disciples, they returned to Lystra and Iconium and Antioch,
22  confirming the souls of the disciples, calling on them to continue in the faith and that through much tribulation we must enter into the kingdom of God.


1Pe 1: 2-12 (GNB)
2  You were chosen according to the purpose of God the Father and were made a holy people by his Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be purified by his blood. May grace and peace be yours in full measure.
3  Let us give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! Because of his great mercy he gave us new life by raising Jesus Christ from death. This fills us with a living hope,
4  and so we look forward to possessing the rich blessings that God keeps for his people. He keeps them for you in heaven, where they cannot decay or spoil or fade away.
5 They are for you, who through faith are kept safe by God's power for the salvation which is ready to be revealed at the end of time.
6  Be glad about this, even though it may now be necessary for you to be sad for a while because of the many kinds of trials you suffer.
7  Their purpose is to prove that your faith is genuine. Even gold, which can be destroyed, is tested by fire; and so your faith, which is much more precious than gold, must also be tested, so that it may endure. Then you will receive praise and glory and honor on the Day when Jesus Christ is revealed.
8  You love him, although you have not seen him, and you believe in him, although you do not now see him. So you rejoice with a great and glorious joy which words cannot express,
9  because you are receiving the salvation of your souls, which is the purpose of your faith in him.
10  It was concerning this salvation that the prophets made careful search and investigation, and they prophesied about this gift which God would give you.
11  They tried to find out when the time would be and how it would come. This was the time to which Christ's Spirit in them was pointing, in predicting the sufferings that Christ would have to endure and the glory that would follow.
12  God revealed to these prophets that their work was not for their own benefit, but for yours, as they spoke about those things which you have now heard from the messengers who announced the Good News by the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. These are things which even the angels would like to understand.

george.

[judith collier]

Yes, if the Master suffered tribulations and trials then why should we be spared if we are called. Judy

[Carlos31]

without mistakes, God can't chasten.

if you don't have mistakes of flaws, what can God correct?

he can surely prosper your other good qualities

[Deborah-Leigh]

To add from http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

...like a real flogging God will chasten us until He drives out the beast in us. The beast of supposed free will which is really self-will.....It takes the very presence of Jesus Christ to dispel the beast of humanistic self-determinism...

Arc

[aqrinc]

without mistakes, God can't chasten.

if you don't have mistakes of flaws, what can God correct?

he can surely prosper your other good qualities

Hi Carlos,

We do not need to make any mistakes to get correction; we are being corrected because mistakes is all we know how to make.

What good qualities do we have inherently? none according to The Scripture:

Isa 64:6 
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Psa 14:1  (KJV)
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Psa 14:3 
They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Psa 53:1 
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Psa 53:3 
Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Jer 4:22 
For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

Mic 7:2 
The good man is perished out of the earth: and there is none upright among men: they all lie in wait for blood; they hunt every man his brother with a net.

Mat 19:17 
And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mar 10:18 
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luk 18:19 
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

Rom 3:12 
They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Here is what we must alway keep in mind, the race we run has a finish line. When that line is crossed by the
last runner (overcomer) Only By The GRACE OF GOD; look what is next in Scripture.

Rev 22:10 (CLV)
And he is saying to me, "You should not be sealing the sayings of the prophecy of this scroll, for the era is near."

Rev 22:11
Let the injurer injure still; and let the filthy one be filthy still; and let the just one do righteousness still; and let the holy one be hallowed still."

Rev 22:12
Lo! I am coming swiftly, and My wage is with Me, to pay each one as his work is."

Rev 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Origin and the Consummation."

george.

[mhykx]

I have a question.

What is/are the difference/s between trial, tribulation, and persecution?

Thanks a lot!

-Mike 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Good question Mike.

Persecution is part of trials and tribulations. Do you know where persecutions START?

Ref LOF part 3 ...persecutions...start in our own household.

"And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than Me is NOT WORTHY  of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is  NOT WORTHY  of Me. And he that taketh not his cross and followeth after Me, IS NOT WORTHY OF ME." (Matt. 10. 26-28)

Arc

[judith collier]

Arcturus, Amen about persecution starting in our own household, but I am no better than them because of my reactions. After reading about the description of repentance and the breaking of the law I think I will not say as much. I think for the first time I really got it. The breaking of one law is the breaking of all the law. How can one bear it when they see horrible sins in themselves?  I am serious, I feel creepy. judy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Reverential gratitude to God and humble recognition that could be just as bad as anyone we judge is the beginning of Wisdom. A wondrous blessing indeed.

Arc

[aqrinc]

This Experience Of Evil is for our growth and readiness for HIS Purpose for us.

Rom 8: 20-22
20  For the creation was not willingly subjected to vanity, but through Him (GOD) subjecting it, on hope;
21  that also the creation will be freed from the slavery of corruption to the freedom of the glory of the children of God.
22  For we know that all the creation groans together and travails together until now.

Rom 8: 28-30
28  But we know that to the ones loving God all things work together for good, to those being called according to purpose;
29  because whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be the First-born among many brothers.
30  But whom He predestinated, these He also called; and whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

george.

[Deborah-Leigh]

There it is. There's the gospel; there's the purpose for human existence; there's the plan of God. God is forming man into the very image of Himself. This requires not only a knowledge of good and evil, but an experience of good and evil. God provides both. http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

[aktikt]

George,

Thank you for your post.  It made me think and I was troubled by it.

This entire experience of evil is not to perfect our soul; but rather through trials and tribulation to humble us.
Ray has done a lot of work on this subject, it is worth spending a few hours on studying. Also there are many
good threads from prior discussions over the last couple years.

I carried the post around in my mind for awhile and found that it caused me to be troubled. I didn't think it worthy of God to give us an evil experience just to humble us without any further purpose.   When I thought about it further, I realized that this experience of evil is to humble us indeed, but not for it's own sake.  In other words, you said in your above post:

This entire experience of evil is not to perfect our soul; but rather through trials and tribulation to humble us.

I maintain that God is not humbling us without the thought of perfecting our souls in mind, but rather this humbling experience is vital to perfect us.  Jesus is/was/will be humble isn't He? Aren't we to be like Him?  Jesus is perfect which includes His humble attitude therefore to be perfect requires us to be humble.  God takes it upon Himself to humble us through our experience of evil for the purpose of making us like Jesus who is humble. 

I wanted to clear this up because I imagined others might feel as I did without any answer.

Josh

[Dave in Tenn]

I think of it this way, Josh.  Being humbled is a necessary thing notwithstanding the character trait being produced.  He is the potter; we are the clay.  He is Sovereign God; we are sinful man.  We are HIS workmanship.  We will be humbled.  Every knee will bow and every tongue will acclaim Jesus is Lord.  We will know it, mean it, and understand exactly what that means.  God doesn't exist for us...we are here for Him. 

Certainly to 'be humble' is to be more Christ-like, but 'being humbled' is the way in which God deals with us.  The carnal mind is enmity with God.  He commanded us to love our enemies.  He loves His enemies.  He'll put them all under His feet where they belong.  Having been humbled, then we can rejoice.

Just some added thoughts. 

   

[mharrell08]

I maintain that God is not humbling us without the thought of perfecting our souls in mind, but rather this humbling experience is vital to perfect us.

I would agree as well Josh...all the trials, tribulations, experience of evils, judgments, etc. all fall under the umbrella of 'making man into the image of God. They are all necessary for us to be perfected into His image.


Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

The beast of supposed "free will" which is really self-will, does not want to leave peaceabley! It takes the very presence of Jesus Christ to dispel the beast of humanistic self-determinism... http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html


There are only three possibiliteis as to why....quote

Why there is evil and tragedy in the world;

Why people do evil things to other people;

Why the innocent must suffer at the hands of the wicked;

Why people are born with debilitating defects;

Why the whole world lies in spiritual darkness and paganism;

Why billions live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ their Creator and Saviour;

Why men are often tortured by providence and nature itself which operates completely and independently apart from any man.

When we understand these things we will understand the lake of fire and second death, and a thousand other things that happen in our lives today as well as in the lives of all humanity since Mother Eve!

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

We have to understand being humbled is the result of having our self-determination or sence of SELF, being driven and that quote..

like a real flogging. God will chasten us until He drives out the beast in us. The beast of supposed "free will" which is really self-will does not want to leave peaceably! It takes the very presence of Jesus Christ to dispel the beast of humanistic self-determinism, commonly called "free will."

Although we are not condemned when God judges us, we nonetheless must be chastened. ....

God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:

"Teaching us..." King James

"Instructing us..." American Standard Version

"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)

"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)

"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

Arc

[indianabob]

Great response Deb,

These statements of God's plan and purpose almost stand on their own without being referred to as scripture.  Even non believers would consider them gravely if they were presented as the thoughts of "another" philosopher.

Thanks for sharing.  Bob

The beast of supposed "free will" which is really self-will, does not want to leave peaceabley! It takes the very presence of Jesus Christ to dispel the beast of humanistic self-determinism... http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html


There are only three possibiliteis as to why....quote

Why there is evil and tragedy in the world;

Why people do evil things to other people;

Why the innocent must suffer at the hands of the wicked;

Why people are born with debilitating defects;

Why the whole world lies in spiritual darkness and paganism;

Why billions live and die without ever hearing the name of Jesus Christ their Creator and Saviour;

Why men are often tortured by providence and nature itself which operates completely and independently apart from any man.

When we understand these things we will understand the lake of fire and second death, and a thousand other things that happen in our lives today as well as in the lives of all humanity since Mother Eve!

http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html

We have to understand being humbled is the result of having our self-determination or sence of SELF, being driven and that quote..

like a real flogging. God will chasten us until He drives out the beast in us. The beast of supposed "free will" which is really self-will does not want to leave peaceably! It takes the very presence of Jesus Christ to dispel the beast of humanistic self-determinism, commonly called "free will."

Although we are not condemned when God judges us, we nonetheless must be chastened. ....

God "judges" us by "chastening "(paideuo) us, which means, teaching, training, learning, disciplining, punishing, instructing, and educating. And God "graces" us also by this same "chastening" (paideuo) which does not change meaning from one Scripture verse to another. Notice how other translations render this word paideuo in Titus 2:11-12:

"Teaching us..." King James

"Instructing us..." American Standard Version

"Disciplining us... New Testament (Henry Alford)

"And schooling us..." The Centenary Translation (Montgomery)

"Training us..." The New Testament in Modern Speech (Weymouth)
http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

Arc

[1eyebri]

something i stumbled on and thought was interesting.

1 pet. 1:6 wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: (kjv)

many trials  in the version george posted.

i looked up that word temptations/trials there in strongs and it suggests expierment of good and experience of evil.

probably no big deal but interesting that good as an expierment and evil as an experience.

just been thinking about this alot in the last week since i first read this thread. might be grasping at straws here looking for something that isn't there. i would welcome any thoughts on this.

       brian

[aqrinc]

Hi Brian,

Can't see the straws you are trying to grasp, but That experience of evil, is part of
our training to become like our Creator. Remember these Scriptures in Romans, read those verses
a few times or read all of Romans Ch:8.

Rom 8: 17-25 (Darby)
17  And if children, heirs also: heirs of God, and Christ's joint heirs; if indeed we suffer with him , that we may also be glorified with him .
18  For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the coming glory to be revealed to us.
19  For the anxious looking out of the creature expects the revelation of the sons of God:
20  for the creature has been made subject to vanity, not of its will, but by reason of him who has subjected the same , in hope
21  that the creature itself also shall be set free from the bondage of corruption into the liberty of the glory of the children of God.
22  For we know that the whole creation groans together and travails in pain together until now.
23  And not only that , but even *we* ourselves, who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we also ourselves groan in ourselves, awaiting adoption, that is the redemption of our body.
24  For we have been saved in hope; but hope seen is not hope; for what any one sees, why does he also hope?
25  But if what we see not we hope, we expect in patience.

george.