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Author Topic: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?  (Read 5346 times)

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TheRysta

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Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« on: March 21, 2009, 07:25:48 PM »

Hi, I've been doing a bit of research on Gnosticism. Some sects believe that the New Testament God is a seperate entity from the creator of the universe, which they refer to as the 'demiurge'. This apparently seems to solve the problem of evil.

However, it would pretty much flatten this assumption if Jesus ever reffered to God (specifically) as creator. I haven't even read the bible as it was only at the beginning of this year I even started thinking about God.

Could anyone point me to some quotes in the New Testament in which Jesus himself refers to God not only as HIS father, but as OUR FATHER or as the CREATOR?

Thanks.

- Ryan
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aqrinc

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #1 on: March 21, 2009, 07:46:48 PM »


Hi Ryan,

It is ok to go ahead and start reading The Bible, you will need to learn so start asap.
you may want to do some research in Scripture to be able to understand.


Hope the verses below help you.

Heb 1: 1-2 (GNB)
1  In the past God spoke to our ancestors many times and in many ways through the prophets,
2  but in these last days he has spoken to us through his Son. He is the one through whom God created the universe, the one whom God has chosen to possess all things at the end.

Heb 2:10 (GNB)
It was only right that God, who creates and preserves all things, should make Jesus perfect through suffering, in order to bring many children to share his glory. For Jesus is the one who leads them to salvation.

george. ;D



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Marlene

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #2 on: March 21, 2009, 08:27:42 PM »

Ryan, Have you read Rays papers from the main Website. He backs everything he teaches with scriptures. Some of those will explain the Father and Son relationship to Us. Also, it will explain evil. Just , reading all his articles will help you learn to read the Bible and also understand. It is through searching the scriptures that we learn truth. Believe me I have learned to go to the source. Actually, The Bible comes alive in Rays, articles. I would study and mark scriptures and Learn. If, we learn the scriptures in truth we cannot be deceived. Actually, the whole Bible speaks of God and his Son relationship with us.

Colossians Chapter 1
verse 12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be prtakers of the inheritance of the saints in light

vers 13 Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear son
verse 14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
verse 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the first born of every creature
vers 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible whether they be thrones or dominions, or principlliteis or powers all thing were created by him and for him.
verse 17 And he is before all things and b y him all things consist.
I belive, you shall find these scriptures show where we fit in the creation and where the Son does and the Father. He died for us.

In His Love,
Marlene
« Last Edit: March 21, 2009, 08:47:52 PM by Marlene »
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edpro.pits@yahoo.com

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #3 on: March 21, 2009, 08:33:54 PM »

Hi Ryan.

I would defiantly suggest starting with just reading the bible and getting familiar with it and then read some of Ray's papers on bibletruths.com . The papers will definitely shed much light on what the bible teaches plus by getting familiar with the bible your self you can make your own judgement.

Edward
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Beloved

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #4 on: March 21, 2009, 08:47:33 PM »

Mark 12 there is a parable about the Father and his vineyard and His Son

Mar 9:37  `Whoever may receive one of such children in my name, doth receive me, and whoever may receive me, doth not receive me, but Him who sent me.'

Luk 4:43  and he said unto them--`Also to the other cities it behoveth me to proclaim good news of the reign of God, because for this I have been sent;'

Luk 9:48  and said to them, `Whoever may receive this child in my name, doth receive me, and whoever may receive me, doth receive Him who sent me, for he who is least among you all--he shall be great.'
J
oh 5:30  `I am not able of myself to do anything; according as I hear I judge, and my judgment is righteous, because I seek not my own will, but the will of the Father who sent me.

Joh 5:37  `And the Father who sent me Himself hath testified concerning me; ye have neither heard His voice at any time, nor His appearance have ye seen;
Joh 6:38  because I have come down out of the heaven, not that I may do my will, but the will of Him who sent me.

Joh 6:39  `And this is the will of the Father who sent me, that all that He hath given to me I may not lose of it, but may raise it up in the last day;

Joh 6:44  no one is able to come unto me, if the Father who sent me may not draw him, and I will raise him up in the last day;

Joh 6:57  `According as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, he also who is eating me, even that one shall live because of me

Joh 7:28  Jesus cried, therefore, in the temple, teaching and saying, `Ye have both known me, and ye have known whence I am; and I have not come of myself, but He who sent me is true, whom ye have not known;

Joh 8:16  and even if I do judge my judgment is true, because I am not alone, but I and the Father who sent me;

Joh 8:42  Jesus then said to them, `If God were your father, ye were loving me, for I came forth from God, and am come; for neither have I come of myself, but He sent me;

Joh 9:4  it behoveth me to be working the works of Him who sent me while it is day; night doth come, when no one is able to work

Joh 12:49  because I spake not from myself, but the Father who sent me, He did give me a command, what I may say, and what I may speak,

here is some that are more specific
Joh 17:5  `And now, glorify me, Thou Father, with Thyself, with the glory that I had before the world was, with Thee;

Joh 17:24  `Father, those whom Thou hast given to me, I will that where I am they also may be with me, that they may behold my glory that Thou didst give to me, because Thou didst love me before the foundation of the world

(Joh 16:28)  I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.

Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit but here is a a scripture that states that God himself was the Father of Jesus

Rom 15:6  that with one accord--with one mouth--ye may glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ

this was a quick pick

beloved
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Dennis Vogel

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #5 on: March 21, 2009, 08:52:47 PM »

Joh 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2  The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3  All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
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Beloved

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #6 on: March 21, 2009, 09:00:34 PM »

Thanks dennis

when I cut and paste I missed those..they are great ones

beloved
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Deborah-Leigh

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #7 on: March 22, 2009, 04:33:31 AM »

Hi Ryan

As you are seeking to know the Truth and have been researching on Gnosticism, perhaps you would be interested in adding the following to your notes.

A WORD ABOUT ARMINIANISM, CALVINISM, AND FREE WILL

Most all of the Christian theololgy in the world is based on a teaching known as "Arminianism" or a teaching known as "Calvinism" (and of course, a thousand and one shades of these teachings in between the two extremes).

Both theololgies have FIVE POINTS to their teaching. We will briefly consider them.   With regards to "free will" or "free choice," we can glean the following from their teachings:

ARMINIANISM:  Man was given a "free will/choice" when he was created. He (and she) then used his free will choice and sinned. He continues to have free will until this day throughout all generations of mankind. At death however (which Arminians and most all Christians believe is not death at all, but merely a change of life in a different location), man looses his free will and is not able to freely repent or freely serve God after death.

CALVINISM:  Man was given "free will/choice" when he was created, but he lost it when he sinned. No one has free will again unless he is chosen of God, and converted, and born again, and receives God's Holy Spirit. From that point on he once again has the ability to freely choose, and will have free choice eternally. Those ordained for eternal hell, will of course, never regain their freedom of will.

A Brief Comparative Study of Arminianism and Calvinism

Found at http://www.the-highway.com

This web site has done a fine job in outlining the five points of Arminianism and Calvinism. But I will comment on their content and teaching.

Point 1

Arminianism - Free-Will or Human Ability:

Although human nature was seriously affected by the fall, man has not been left in a state of total spiritual helplessness. God graciously enables every sinner to repent and believe, but He does not interfere with man's freedom. Each sinner posses a free will, and his eternal destiny depends on how he uses it. Man's freedom consists of his ability to choose good over evil in spiritual matters; his will is not enslaved to his sinful nature. The sinner has the power to either cooperate with God's Spirit and be regenerated or resist God's grace and perish. The lost sinner needs the Spirit's assistance, but he does not have to be regenerated by the Spirit before he can believe, for faith is man's act and precedes the new birth. Faith is the sinner's gift to God; it is man's contribution to salvation.

Versus:

Calvinism - Total Inability or Total Depravity: Because of the fall, man is unable of himself to savingly believe the gospel. The sinner is dead, blind, and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free, it is in bondage to his evil nature, therefore, he will not - indeed he cannot - choose good over evil in the spiritual realm. Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit's assistance to bring a sinner to Christ - it takes regeneration by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature. Faith is not something man contributes to salvation but is itself a part of God's gift of salvation - it is God's gift to the sinner, not the sinner's gift to God.

Comment: ARMINIANISM is wrong in teaching that BY the ‘fall’ [sin] mankind was weakened, but did not completely lose his ability to freely choose God. Hence they teach that man does possess free will by which he can repent, believe, and choose, good over evil, but that most will not take advantage of this God-given power, and therefore will be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM is wrong in teaching that because OF the ‘fall’ [sin] man no longer possessed the freedom of will to choose God. Hence they teach that man lost his "free will" and therefore cannot of his own will repent, believe, and choose good over evil. And those not preordained for this election will be, of course, eternally damned and tortured. That man cannot of his own will repent, believe, and choose good, is the correct and Scriptural truth, but not because of the reason given by Calvinism.

Point 2

Arminianism - Conditional Election: God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man's will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner's choice of Christ, not God's choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Versus:

Calvinism - Unconditional Election: God's choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response of obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause of God's choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God's choice of the sinner, not the sinner's choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that salvation is offered to all mankind, but that only a certain election are able to freely respond and receive salvation. God foresaw from the foundation of the world, those who would of their own free will choose to repent, believe, and answer God’s call completely on their own without any outside assistance from God. And those whom God did not foresee doing this, would of course, be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM wrongly teaches that only those elected by God from the foundation of the world can possibly be saved, as none others are even considered by God for salvation. Hence those foreknown and chosen will be saved completely by and through God, without any contributions from the elect, and the rest, of course, were foreordained to be (as the Arminians likewise teach) eternally damned and tortured.

Point 3

Arminianism - Universal Redemption or General Atonement: Christ's redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone's sins. Christ's redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.

Calvinism - Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement: Christ's redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ's redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation.

Versus:

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that Christ’s Sacrifice made it possible for all humanity to be saved, but it did not ASSURE that all humanity would be saved. Couple this with point two, and we have one giant contradiction. How is it "possible" for all humanity to be saved, when God foreknows that most will not be saved? Unbelievable! And yet most of Christendom does believe this unscriptural heresy which saves a few and sends the rest to be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM wrongly teaches that, although it is God only Who contributes all that is necessary for salvation, this secured salvation is given only to a protion of mankind, the unfortunate rest of which, can do absolutely nothing to bring themselves salvation, and God Himself will do nothing to save them, therefore their preordained destiny from the creation of the world is to be eternally damned and tortured.

Point 4

Arminianism - The Holy Spirit Can Be Effectually Resisted: The Spirit calls inwardly all those who are called outwardly by the gospel invitation; He does all that He can to bring every sinner to salvation. But inasmuch as man is free, he can successfully resist the Spirit's call. The Spirit cannot regenerate the sinner until he believes; faith (which is man's contribution) proceeds and makes possible the new birth. Thus, man's free will limits the Spirit in the application of Christ's saving work. The Holy Spirit can only draw to Christ those who allow Him to have His way with them. Until the sinner responds, the Spirit cannot give life. God's grace, therefore, is not invincible; it can be, and often is, resisted and thwarted by man.

Versus:

Calvinism - The Efficacious Call of the Spirit or Irresistible Grace: In addition to the outward general call to salvation which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The internal call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call the Spirit irresistibly draws sinners to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man's will, nor is He dependent upon man's cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect sinner to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God's grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that God’s Spirit inwardly calls all sinners, but that man’s free will enables man to resist the call and thwart the will of God. It is taught that man’s contribution to salvation is his faith to believe and be born again, so that the Spirit can do it’s part. Those who supposedly have the power to resist God’s calling will have to be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM  wrongly teaches that God calls many to hear the gospel, but not all. And of those whom are called to hear, only a select elect will be empowered by God’s gracious election to willing accept God’s call to repent, believe, and come to Christ. Those to whom God gave no opportunity whatsoever to be saved will be eternally damned and tortured.

Point 5

Arminianism - Falling from Grace: Those who believe and are truly saved can lose their salvation by failing to keep up their faith, etc. All Arminians have not been agreed on this point; some have held that believers are eternally secure in Christ - that once a sinner is regenerated, he can never be lost.

Versus:

Calvinism - Perseverance of the Saints: All who are chosen by God, redeemed by Christ, and given faith by the Spirit are eternally saved. They are kept in faith by the power of Almighty God and thus persevere to the end.

Comment: ARMINIANISM wrongly teaches that it is possible to fall from grace by failing to keep one’s faith, even though this flatly contradicts their statement that God knows from the foundation of the world those who WILL accept Christ and who WILL be saved. Of course some Arminians believe that once a sinner is brought to Christ he can never fall away. But for all those who "might" fall away, and for all those who never came to Christ in the first place, these will all be eternally damned and tortured.

Comment: CALVINISM wrongly teaches that only a few are actually pre-elected to salvation by God from the foundation of the world, and these will by the grace of God persevere unto the end, while those who were never chosen at all will be eternally damned and tortured.

According to Arminianism: Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond) - man's response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, "choose" to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man's will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.

According to Calvinism: Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ's death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.

These are the two main theological doctrines regarding God’s Sovereignty and man’s supposed free will, with regards to salvation. The controversy between these two views has raged in heated debates for over four centuries. Which one is Scripturally correct? Neither. Both teachings contain gross unscriptural heresy.

THE UNSCRIPTURAL ‘FALL OF MAN’

Since both theories stated above teach a "fall of man," it is needful that we briefly address this unscriptural theory. I, as well as most of you have heard of the "fall of man" hundreds if not thousands of times. One would think there is reference to "man’s fall" at least a few dozen places in the Bible. NOT. The fabled "fall of man" is not mentioned in the Bible because it is just that—A FABLE. Man was NEVER a perfect spiritual specimen in the very image of God who then "FELL" from that lofty position. No, man was "naked flesh"—SIN. Man [humankind] was a sinner who when given the opportunity, SINNED.

Let me restate their positions in a nutshell:

Arminians believe that God makes salvation available to all mankind, however, because man’s will is free, God knows in advance who will and will not choose to be saved. Those who choose not to be saved will not be saved, and of those who do choose to be saved, even some of them might not be saved. All unsaved will be eternally damned and tortured.

Calvinists believe that God preordains a certain few to be saved. Of these, all will absolutely be saved. Those which have not been preordained to be saved, will all be eternally damned and tortured.

Arminianism suggests that God "offers" salvation to all, but having given man free will, God knows that most can not and will not respond favorably, hence most of humanity will be lost due to the weakness and/or stupidity of God’s plan.

Calvinism says that God never even "offered" most of humanity a chance at salvation, thus making God incomprehensibly evil.

Well, there you have it: Christendom in a nutshell. And what an evil and disgusting picture it is!

And here is the unfortunate part of the Good News Gospel of Christendom to the world of humanity:

"FOR THE MAJORITY OF THE HUMAN RACE THERE IS NO ETERNAL HOPE OR SECURITY IN THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST! MOST OF HUMANITY WILL BE DAMNED AND TORTURED IN FIRE FOR ALL ETERNITY AND THERE IS NO LOVE NOR POWER IN HEAVEN OR EARTH THAT WILL PREVENT IT !"

This is, of course, my own personal paraphrase of their gospel, for which I take personal accountability. I am confident that the Church will take appropriate actions against me. God have mercy upon them all.

Here’s God’s answer to four hundred years of this carnal-minded theological swill:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who WILL HAVE ALL MEN TO BE SAVED" (I Tim.2:4).

AND:

"My counsel shall stand, and I WILL DO ALL My pleasure.

I have spoken it, I WILL also bring it to pass.

I have purposed it, I WILL also do it" (Isaiah 46:10-11).

I have entertained doing a Part E and possibly further. There is much more that could be said regarding the Sovereignty of God verses the fabled free will of man. But why? Most who will see the truth of this subject saw its truth back in Part A, and those who do not as yet see it, won’t see it if I continue on to Parts X, Y, and Z. I think it is time to move on. God grant to you the eyes to see and the ears to hear what the Spirit is demonstrating through His marvelous Word.

HOME


The above teaching is found at http://bible-truths.com/lake15-D.html

Arc
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Ninny

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2009, 10:23:44 AM »

Wow Ryan! How many 16 year olds search for God at all, much less go at it from that angle?! I didn't even know about Gnosticism when I was your age! I guess times are different! You've been given some good advice here, mainly you need to get into the Bible and study for yourself! Nothing beats searching things out for yourself. Back there in Genesis in the beginning, who was saying "Let us make man in OUR image after OUR likeness"? Did God have a mouse in His pocket? Go Boy! Find out all you can! I'll pray that you find all your answers! God will open up your understanding you will be amazed at what you will find! I am so encouraged to see that you are seeking for knowledge and truth. Please keep seeking!
Kathy :D
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TheRysta

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2009, 10:01:26 AM »

Yeah, I'm not much like other people my age. Mostly, they pee me off.

I have two good friends my own age but I usually just prefer the company of adults. I've been like that since I was a kid. I can relate perfectly with adults and perfectly with children, just nothing in-between.

I'm too much of a thinker. God just happens to be my new obsessive interest. As a result, I ask too many questions which is why no church would let me in :)

Only joking. I do go to church with my grandparents sometimes, but they are Mormons.

I'll read through some of this stuff. I will also check them in context. It's something I need to deduce.

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Ninny

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Re: Did Jesus refer to God as creator?
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2009, 10:06:16 AM »

I have an 11 year old grandson who is a little like you. He has many questions, but he dearly loves God and wants everyone to be saved! That's a start! ;)
Keep reading!
Kathy :D
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