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[Kicking against the Goads]

Learning all I have over the last few months from this site has been wonderful.  The first lesson I received right off the bat was since God isn't going to torture most of humanity for all of eternity I have no right, no business despising ANYONE!!  Loving our enemies, turning the other cheek...it all makes sense now!!

The other thing that makes sense now is how to feed the poor, take care of widows, etc.  I used to view feeding the poor as a "ministry" to bring them the gospel so they won't burn in hell forever.  Now I don't see it as a "ministry", but as simply feeding the poor because that's what we're supposed to do.  There's no ulterior motive...just feed, clothe, love.  Sure we can share Christ's love...but the pressure is off to "save" them!!  And how much more effective would the church be if they took the preaching out of it?  I know there is a place for teaching and preaching...but it is not essential to feeding the poor.

Am I making any sense?

Thanks,
Lynn

James 1:27  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

[Linny]

Yes, Lynn, I know what you mean. When we drive by a church that is adding on, or go into one like I had to do the other day for a meeting, you see the amazing amount of money being spent on a place so that people can come in and have a nice country club to hang out in. Beautiful art on the bathroom walls! One of the mega churches here pushes for small groups. If that is all they did, meet in small groups, at homes, how much money could be used to feed hungry children?
I know it is the Will of God but it still hurts my heart.
I think, speaking from experience, that the poor and widowed, etc. don't get the help they need because churches are full of people tapped out already by giving tithes to the church. At our last church, they took up extra offerings for Pastor's Birthday, Anniversary with his wife, his wife's BD, their anniversary for coming to the church. Who has anything left after all that?

Ray's tithing paper was the first one I read that introduced me to BT. What an eye opening blessing that was.

I am so thankful for a husband with a huge heart for giving. He will no longer do a garage sale. He gives everything away that we can't use anymore to the needy. He has taught me so much about giving.

[Roy Coates]

Amen Sister, it makes sense to me.
I would rather help the widow on my street, volunteer at the local shelter than to give money to some who may or may not use it for it's intended pourpose. Just to do it because they need it ad ready to share the hope that lies within if they ask.

Along those same lines knowing that God is in control also take pressure off of me. When I am asked to pray for some one I just pray, giving it to God.

[jassy]

That old saying  is the best. ¨At all times, preach the gospel, and only when absolutely necessary, use words¨ 

When in my teens I used to know an elderly couple who ran a material store in my town. They were devout Muslims and this confused me because I could almost see the light of God shining in those precious faces.
According to the teachings of the churches I knew these two were supposed to be hell fodder and that bothered me for some time.
Was I supposed to batter them with the new testament until they accepted Christ, pray for them until they learned the error of their ways?
  I fretted until God gave me my answer.
He gave it through my mother who pointed out some facts to me when I eventually asked her opinion.

They were more Godly in their behaviour than a lot of christians I knew. Honest, hard working and honourable in their dealings with the public. They gave to the needy who frequently haunted their shop.They taught  the gospel of Christ just by their behaviour.  The fate of their souls had absolutely nothing to do with me. Christs suffering was for a reason far greater than I had realised.
If my mom was alive today she would have enjoyed Rays teachings. The core of my moms faith was absolute trust in God, she figured He knew best so all she did was love Him and teach His gospel without words like that little couple.
My parents and that  couple taught me a great lesson at a young age.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hello Lynn

Your observations are confirmed I believe in the following teaching: http:////www.bible-truths.com/tithing.html

"And the Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God… I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess" (Luke 18:12).

And just what kind of a blessing did Jesus pronounced on this Pharisee for his "tithe"?

No blessing, no justification, just a promise that people like him will be "abased" (Ver. 14).

What does being an utter hypocrite and passing over "Judgment and the Love of God" have to do with "tithing?" That’s the whole point. These gross sins have virtually nothing to do with tithing!

Tithing to Jesus was so absolutely insignificant to the gross sins of failing to properly Judge the widows and orphans and fatherless and poor, and to not show any Love of God toward them. Tithing was the smallest most inconsequential thing Christ could think of to show the utter hypocrisy of this Pharisees. They were very meticulous about tithing (a law of virtually no spiritual consequence what so ever), and yet… and YET they would do the tithe thing and neglect judgment, love and mercy.

Now please don’t all write me at once telling me that I have missed the whole point of these two sets of Scripture by not realizing that it was their very gross sins that will bring "woes’ and "abasements" on them, and not that they are being condemned for what they did do correctly, namely "tithe." That is quite true. However, it appears that most have missed the very reason why Jesus gives two examples of two Phariees, who were gross sinners deserving the worst possible chastisements, and then says that they were both tithe-payers.

Christ’s attention to the fact that they were both meticulous tithe-payers, proved the hypocrisy of these two Pharisees. They would pay strict attention to very miner details of a law, and yet totally abandon a very reason and purpose for the whole existence of the law—LOVE, MERCY, JUDGMENT.

The Church pays meticulous attention to false teaching. 

Arc

[Marlene]

Amen Arc! This whole thread has been a simple explanation of how we should give. I have always believed this even while in Babylon. I gave with my heart. Never had enough money to give a tithe. Thats, one of the reasons I left caue our last minister choose to speak about the amount of tithe we gave. He also, had a sermon basically telling us if we do not tithe God Might Kill us. But, I thank God every day for that presecution. I had been extremely ill and should have died, but God took good care of me. He showed me who was in control. This all led to me finding BT and now I have been blessed way beyond my imagination.

In His Love,

My Brothers and Sister of BT are a blessing beyone my imagination!

[Deborah-Leigh]

And the lessons get better and better....deeper and deeper and more frequent too!

I share with you the gratitude to God for our Brethren here who have also been the avenues through which our Lord has directed, edified, encouraged and helped me in my coming to know HIM.

Arc

[Ninny]

I can identify with all of that!  the church I left (to come here! I'd been here awhile before I left, but my heart was gone from there long before my body followed!!) ANYWAY there they had a saying "making room for one more" So they spent 3 million dollars to make room for one more!! Well, since I left they have expanded yet again for another "one more" I have no idea how much that cost! It was a remodel and renovation of the existing building, but it wasn't cheap! I have some good friends still at that church, but I just couldn't agree with that philosophy! I never donated to to "building fund"!   Every time I pass the church I think the same thing about what have they missed out on by being so enthralled with growing! the pastor always said, "We want to reach the 'unchurched' the thousands who live around us with no church affiliation" I'm not sure building a bigger church does that!
 
They already had like 15 or 1600 people in attendance on any given Sunday! That's a lot for here because every other person who lives around here is a Baptist! There is only one Catholic church within 50 miles of here, the rest of the churches are Assembly of God, various other non denominational churches and a lot of Methodist churches (the church I left was a Methodist church, non traditional) There is one Jehovah's Witness church and two Seventh day Adventist churches! Now I ask you HOW many unchurched people are out there! There are a lot of people who want nothing to do with organized religion, but they don't consider themselves "unchurched"!!  Or maybe they DO!! 
So there's my 2 cents worth! (well maybe a little more than 2 cents!!)
Kathy

[jassy]

This thread has confirmed a thought in my head for some time now. My little church wants to build on. They have been wanting to for 2 years. But nothing comes of it. The congregation is too small and money she not big. If the Lord had wanted it to happen it would have. If its Gods will its Gods bill.

When I joined them 6 years ago my area was hit by a massive pyramid scheme. Of course, being the hermit crab I am I only found out after the whole thing blew up. It wiped out thousands of peoples savings and pensions. So I walked into into a community that was devastated and huddled together for warmth. Maby thats why I love them so much. They had hit  bottom and been humbled and could not even pay attention. I had my own problems so I fitted in beautifully.

I have always thought a church should be a support base. a place to come to pray for others and be prayed for without having strings attached. Broken people come in, get prayed for and if required given food and sometimes stay for a while. There is no discomfort coming in with a rusted car and a 10 year old wardrobe. Nobody cares, they have all been there.
  Why would you want to build fancy extensions and become yet another place people who are sick of organised religion want to avoid?  Its should be a meeting place for those who dont know where to go and God leads them there. Not a fancy place for Gods people to be entertained.

There you go, This long winded comment was actually for myself, But I will post it anyway. seems a waste to delete it.

[Ocean]

Greetings All,

So true that actions do speak louder than words. If I'm not mistaken, Jesus 'ministry' reflected that. The only time He would rebuke anyone was to the 'churched-Pharicees' and Sadducee's.

When i made that connection (thanks to Ray's teachings) of the depth of God's LOVE for ALL humanity and identified the beast within, i can see clearly now. To freely give to anyone, with anything i have and be quick to forgive are new attributes i thank God for.....more precious than my current master's study that has stalled.

At times, i cringe thinking that i still would be 'chasing-my-tail' wondering why everyone else is a problem and not me .....had it not been for God's mercy and grace Also, it has become clear that God's plan/thoughts are not necessarily ours but rest on His sovereignty through faith.

Ditto, Arc.....yeah, can't seem to get enough of the deeper spiritual meanings of the Word.....its so fulfilling, nothing I've read comes close to this.

Blessings,
Ocean

 

[judith collier]

Jassy, I would have liked your mother too! There are enough people who fall through the cracks that we can help and I like the personal touch. I never fit in because I wanted to lead and nobody would let me. This way I can give and do for others as I see fit. Judy