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you tell him ertsky

How lucky and blessed we are to have a God that loves us so much that He is willing to send His own son.  How lucky and blessed we are to have a Lord and saviour who accomplished the will of the Father.  Amazing words when Jesus went into the garden to pray before He was crucified.  How lucky and blessed we, sinners, to be forgiven.  Now, these are just a few things we are lucky and blessed to have.

Seeing we have these things, being sinners and not righteous and have fallen short of the glory of God, who are we to say that God cannot or will not forgive other sinners.  These few things stated above show the great character, love and mercy that fills His being.  

Jesus healing the blind, deaf, crippled, raising the dead or changing water into wine are great things indeed, but they are in no comparison to His saving power.  This is the true power of God, in which no man or even death itself can prevent from being accomplished.  His will be done in earth as it is in heaven.

To be carnally minded is death.  Death likes to speak of itself.  To be spiritually minded is life.  Life does not speak of itself, but likes to bring death back into the light.  It all boils down to love.  One can not talk about the love of God and in the same sentence portray God as as evil hideous torturer, and then try to justify it by saying that His ways are higher than ours.  All through the bible God constantly wants His people to come closer to Him and to learn His ways.  It takes repentence with a broken heart and a contrite spirit.  

Jesus came to save us from death, the grave and to bring us life more abundantly.  He does not condemn us, He gave his life for us.  How much more love can be seen there?  Be careful of worldly religion and their constant condemnations.  Diligently seek God and He will reward you.

We either have the love of God in us during this life or we will be thrown into it come judgement day.  Our God is a consuming fire.  Religion talks about fire as a bad thing, but when you study the bible enough you come to realize that fire is a good thing, weird very strange.  No wonder we are commanded to come out of her.

God bless you in your search.


nightmare sasuke:

--- Quote from: lesur ---Apparently you don't believe the bible is the inerrant, inspired word of God, so there is little value in arguing.  I'll leave you with this just in case you come to your senses:

[*] "fire"                                       Matt 7:19, 13:40, 25:41
[*] "everlasting fire"                          Matt 18:8, 25:41
[*] "eternal damnation"               Mark 3:29
[*] "hell fire"                              Matt 5:22, 18:9, Mark 9:47
[*] "damnation"                          Matt 23:14, Mark 12:40, Luke 20:47
[*] "damnation of hell"                Matt 23:33
[*] "resurrection of damnation"    John 5:29
[*] "furnace of fire"                           Matt 13:42, 50
[*] "the fire that never shall be quenched"    Mark 9:43, 45
[*] "the fire is not quenched"               Mark 9:44, 46, 48
[*] "Where their worm dieth not"    Mark 9:44, 46, 48
[*] "wailing and gnashing of teeth"    Matt 13:42, 50
[*] "weeping and gnashing of teeth"   Matt 8:12, 22:13, 25:30
[*] "torments"                                    Luke 16:23
[*] "tormented in this flame"              Luke 16:24
[*] "place of torment"                         Luke 16:28
[*] "outer darkness"                         Matt 8:12, 22:13
[*] "everlasting punishment"             Matt 25:46

I understand
--- End quote ---

Rather than waste my time commenting on each verse, I recommend that you look up the true meaning behind the Greek words translated "everlasting" and "hell."

Read my reply to this guys post: http://forums.bible-truths.com/viewtopic.php?t=42



--- Quote from: ertsky ---Hey there lesur

 Hi ertsky,  thanks for your response.  My comments are in the text below.

don't be too hasty to consign anyone to eternal torment :)

I am not.   I am only a pupil of God's word. His word is quite clear to me.  I advise you to take care that are not only relying on the verses that support your theology.

do you really believe the Father of all mercies is so incompetent, as to have to resort to torture ??

no, not at all.  Who said anything about being incompentent or having to resort to anything?  Your arguement here sounds supiciously like somethiing a non-christian would say of the crucificition of Christ.  Was God so incompetent, in your opinon, that he had to resort to torturing his son?

is that your opinion of God ??

is that how Saul became Paul ??
see above

Luk 9:54  And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
Luk 9:55  But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
Luk 9:56  For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. And they went to another village.

Indeed, if only men would accept them.  Not beleiving in Jesus will put you squarely into hell

What is man being saved from all over in the new testament  (Luke 8:12 as an example) if not damnation?

come on lesur couldn't the fire Jesus spoke of be spiritual allegory, do you insist it is literal flame ??
I believe it is literal eternal punishment, yes.  

has nothing ever burned but not been consumed ??

how many were in the fire with one as the Son of God ??

our God is a consuming fire, come on lesur  

Dan 3:24  Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
Dan 3:25  He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

I don't see the relevance here to our discussion.  Certainly God can keep people from being burned, He is omnipotent.  

Rom 11:32  For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

God has allowed us to pursue our sinful inclinations so that He could receieve glory by demonstrating His grace and mercy.

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Rom 11:34  For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

This is Paul beginning to burst out in praise to the majesty, grandeur and wisdom of God's plan reveled in the earlier verses.  Once again this is off track to the main discussion as far as I can see.  God is great, of that we agree.

come on lesur think again

Jesus is Lord !

does He seem to you to be a "torture them" kind of guy?
as is so clearly written, every person has a choice of whether to beleive in Him or to not beleive in Him.

Mat 9:13  But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

I know what He means here, do you?

or what about this word

Mar 9:49  For every one shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt.

well how about it beloved lesur ? peter paul, james and john, all salted with fire and very much the better for the experience !!

And?  How does this attend to the question of if there is a hell which those who haven't accepted God will go to?  

What of Judas?  

Mark 14:21 says:  The Son of man indeed goeth, as it is written of him: but woe to that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! good were it for that man if he had never been born.

Why would it has been better for Judas if he had never been born?

1Pe 4:12  Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
1Pe 4:13  But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.

sorry lesur but you will have to rethink your list of proof verses

i know something of the fire of God

Well one of us should rethink their position and proof verses.  Here we are again. I think we can assume that Jesus is adressing believers here.  So the point is moot.  

We know that believiers can expect persecution, that is not same nor even the same greek word being used for all of these examples you are giving.  The greek word used for the fire of hell (gehenna) is quite different than that you refrence in either 1 Peter or Mark.  1 Peter is purois (smelting ignition)- burning trial or calamity as a test.  Mark's fire is the root word pur which is fire as we know and use it.  Gehenna, hell, is a place of everlasting punishment and hell fire.

You could stand to know more about the fire of God so you don't lead other astray.

Mal 3:2  But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
Mal 3:3  And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
well i am in your debt lesur

you have reminded me of how great a mercy God is showing me in His righteous judgement

If you are being sincere, which is not too likely I suppose, then I am glad you were reminded

sorry to chide you so lesur, you provoke me in love

Chide?  When?  I feel secure enough to carry on a discussion with a brother (or sister) in the faith, even if we do have differing views.

as the verses cited above clearly show there is a whole lot more to the fire than you or i know at present, please reconsider the possibilities

I will pray on it, will you as well, even if you have prayed about it previously?l

--- End quote ---
I may have messed up some of your formating, I had some problems typing this. If I did, it was purely by accident.


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