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[Deborah-Leigh]

I am HIS Workmanship not my own product.

This is very accurate and it gets better.
Everyone else is also His Work

For those who have not yet enjoyed release from the burden to save souls or the shame that we have not saved any, or the pride that we have ministered several quick fix sinners prayers, this link for starters, is for you.http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

Enjoy

Arc

[charrie]

I am HIS Workmanship not my own product.

For those who have not yet enjoyed release from the burden to save souls or the shame that we have not saved any, or the pride that we have ministered several quick fix sinners prayers,
Enjoy

Arc

Arc, this statement, link I will read later, is so true for me.  When I was in Babylon the pastor would make us feel so ashamed that we weren't out witnessing.  He would beat it over our heads; and, yes, I felt horrible, like I wasn't doing my "job" of being saved.  They would use the scripture that pertained to "bearing fruit".  If you didn't go out and "save" someone or talk about god to everyone you laid your eyes on you were lazy and not bearing fruit according to scripture.  Once the pastor even said that each week we should be bringing at least one new person to church with us..man, what pressure and nonsense.  Talk about being in bondage  

In reality, the church uses witnessing, I believe, just as a means to get more bodies in the building to get more money and/or to walk in pride as to the amount of bodies they have. 


Thank you, Dave and Arc, for your postings.  Strangely enough, the more I learn by our Father's grace the more I see me in the right light.

I tell you the truth, it took an awful lot to have been shown by God that I am the Beast on the throne, and that my entire life is anti-Christ--including my religion, as well as my gross carnality.  I'm not too bothered by paganism.  It's just another flavor to me in this sin, ideology, and religion saturated world.  Everywhere I look in the scripture, the Spirit says to me to move on and know God.


Charrie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Charrie

You have seen correctly that Babyon does not know that the words of Christ are Spirit and Truth. It is God who provides spiritual ears and eyes to comprehend His Ways and to hear His Voice. Understanding comes only by the Spirit of God.

Babylon takes the Word of God to be literal/carnal as they are literal/carnal.

Witnessing refers to Scripture that must match another Scripture to reveal the Truth!

....the Scriptures know nothing of "winning souls for Jesus." It is a man-made doctrine of the carnal mind. http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm

Arc

[charrie]

Thank you, Arc, I have read the link and that answers that question.  I appreciate you


Charrie

[meee]

  Hey everyone,
 About witnessing.  When we were in the Baptist church our Pastor would stand in the pulpit and tell how on Saturday he'd go to the mall and strike up a conversation with someone that seemed to have all the time in the world, until Pastor began talking about hell. Then the person all of a sudden remembered they needed to be somewhere and would get away as fast as they could. Pastor would be grinning and so full of himself and making fun of the person he's witinessed to. It made me sick and ashamed. He did more harm than good,but he was so blind he didn't know this.
  Just think of all the harm that is done in the name of Christ!
  Just me remembering a very sad   time at so called church.
   luv & hugs, meee

[charrie]

I have reread Ray's "winning souls" paper and I did not come across a particular scripture that Christendom uses to seduce people into witnessing.

Matt. 28:19-20  Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come

Mark 16:15  And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

I have heard several pastors in Christendom say that Big Brother Jesus Christ won't come back until this is completed.  Which, therefore, is why we need to witness.  This is why they travel (in 20,000,000 jets) around the world and need our money to help "spread the gospel" to these "unreached nations". 

You know, I heard Creflo Dollar say once that, he (Creflo) didn't believe that Jesus Christ was coming back for a "broke$$$$" church (talk about mind control)

I know that these scriptures are Spiritual and I believe they may pertain to after the resurrection?   Where the elect will be able to go throughout the WHOLE WORLD teaching the gospel.

They (the Elect) will not need planes, trains, etc...and will cost nothing

Anyway, if someone can help to get a better understanding of these particular scriptures that would be great!!

Charrie

[charrie]

Just one other question, as well.

In Ray's paper on winning souls he states that that common scripture churches use:

Prov 11: 30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and he who wins souls is wise.

does not even pertain to winning souls.  What does it pertain to?

Charrie

[aqrinc]

Hi Charrie,

Take a bit of time and study these ten different translations, also look up strongs or any concordance you have. The story is very different depending on the translation or word order. I do think i have the answer but you do the exercise and see what you come up with.

I know you have some other questions but this gives you a way to get one part done.

Pro 11:30 (CEV)
Live right, and you will eat from the life-giving tree. And if you act wisely, others will follow.

Pro 11:30  (Geneva)
The fruite of the righteous is as a tree of life, and he that winneth soules, is wise.

Pro 11:30  (YLT)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls is wise.

Pro 11:30 (GNB)
Righteousness gives life, but violence takes it away.

Pro 11:30 (ESV)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.

Pro 11:30 (CLV)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life, And he who procures souls is wise."

Pro 11:30 (Rotherham)
The fruit of the righteous, is a tree of life, and, he that rescueth souls, is wise.

Pro 11:30 (Revised Webster 1833)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise. (winneth: Heb. taketh)

Pro 11:30 (The Apostles Bible)
Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life, but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.

Pro 11:30 (BBE)
The fruit of righteousness is a tree of life, but violent behaviour takes away souls.

george.

[Dave in Tenn]

I think what that comparative list on Prov. 11:30 demonstrates, if nothing else, that it's a particularly knotty thought to translate from Hebrew.

Charrie, even if we take Mark 24:14 literally, I don't believe the 'gospel' which the churches are preaching even qualifies as 'gospel'...much less The Gospel of the Kingdom.  No...their's is the 'other' gospel', the 'different' gospel which was prophecied would 'enter in', even though its reach is larger and broader (many are called, few chosen) and despite the fact that it even contradicts itself.

[Marky Mark]

Charrie,for what its worth,according to the SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT,  Mark 16;  9-20 are not in Scripture.




Peace...Mark

[daywalker]

I have reread Ray's "winning souls" paper and I did not come across a particular scripture that Christendom uses to seduce people into witnessing.

Matt. 28:19-20  Go therefore[a] and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you;

Matt. 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come

Mark 16:15  And He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature.

I have heard several pastors in Christendom say that Big Brother Jesus Christ won't come back until this is completed.  Which, therefore, is why we need to witness.  This is why they travel (in 20,000,000 jets) around the world and need our money to help "spread the gospel" to these "unreached nations". 

You know, I heard Creflo Dollar say once that, he (Creflo) didn't believe that Jesus Christ was coming back for a "broke$$$$" church (talk about mind control)

I know that these scriptures are Spiritual and I believe they may pertain to after the resurrection?   Where the elect will be able to go throughout the WHOLE WORLD teaching the gospel.

They (the Elect) will not need planes, trains, etc...and will cost nothing

Anyway, if someone can help to get a better understanding of these particular scriptures that would be great!!

Charrie

Funny thing, I bet Mr. Dollar has enough "Dollars" to "refuel" the Church for a long time all by himself. Add Paula White, Billy Graham, and all those others, and they'd never have to rob a poor person ever again!!!!!

James 1:27: Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Matthew 25:45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"

Matthew 21:12-13: And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers… and said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves

So, WHO'S REALLY ROBBING GOD?  Why oh why don't people see these things? 

- Daywalker.

[charrie]

Charrie,for what its worth,according to the SPURIOUS PASSAGES OF THE NEW TESTAMENT,  Mark 16;  9-20 are not in Scripture.

Peace...Mark

Thank you, Mark.  I appreciate the reminder.  I have those spurious passages indicated in my NKJV but currently using the Rot henham Version and haven't gone through and made indications in it yet.

Hi Charrie,

Take a bit of time and study these ten different translations, also look up strongs or any concordance you have. The story is very different depending on the translation or word order. I do think i have the answer but you do the exercise and see what you come up with.

I know you have some other questions but this gives you a way to get one part done.

Pro 11:30 (CEV)
Live right, and you will eat from the life-giving tree. And if you act wisely, others will follow.

Pro 11:30  (Geneva)
The fruite of the righteous is as a tree of life, and he that winner soules, is wise.

Pro 11:30  (YLT)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, And whoso is taking souls is wise.

Pro 11:30 (GNB)
Righteousness gives life, but violence takes it away.

Pro 11:30 (ESV)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life, and whoever captures souls is wise.

Pro 11:30 (CLV)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life, And he who procures souls is wise."

Pro 11:30 (Rotherham)
The fruit of the righteous, is a tree of life, and, he that rescueth souls, is wise.

Pro 11:30 (Revised Webster 1833)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winner souls is wise. (winner: Heb. taketh)

Pro 11:30 (The Apostles Bible)
Out of the fruit of righteousness grows a tree of life, but the souls of transgressors are cut off before their time.

Pro 11:30 (BBE)
The fruit of righteousness is a tree of life, but violent behaviour takes away souls.

george.

Hi, George

Thank you so much for all the different versions.  I have done some studying, which is why it has taken me so long to get back.  The wonderful thing is that the more I studied the more revelation the Spirit of Yahweh opened to me.  It is truly a wonderful feeling to get understanding.

OK, so this is what I've learned, so far.  I am not attempting to teach but share some of the limited knowledge Father has decided to bless me with.

Pro 11:30 (Revised Webster 1833)
The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winner souls is wise. (winner: Heb. taketh)

I first started with "a tree of life".  Father likens us to: 

(Mat 5:13)  You are the salt of the earth.

Mat 5:14  `Ye are the light of the world,...
Mat 5:15  ...and it shineth to all those in the house;
Mat 5:16  so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and may glorify your Father who is in the heavens.

BUT, HE mostly likens us to trees or branches:

Isa 61:3  to appoint unto them that mourn in Zion, to give unto them a garland for ashes, the oil of joy for mourning, the garment of praise for the spirit of heaviness; that they may be called trees of righteousness, the planting of Jehovah, that he may be glorified.

Now we trees are "a tree of life" and our main function is to bear fruit (good fruit):

but unlike natural trees "a tree of life's: fruit encompasses several qualities:

Wisdom is a tree of life (Prov. 3:18)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life (Prov. 11:30)
An expectation met (hope) is a tree of life (Prov. 13:12)
 A gentle tongue is a tree of life (Pro 15:4)

Trees that bear fruit are not allowed to be cut down because they sustain life for man (world):

(Deu 20:19-20)  When you besiege a city many days to battle against it to grab it, you shall bring ruin on no tree of it by wielding an axe against it; if you may eat of it, you shall not cut them down; for is the tree of the field a human to come before your face in the siege?
But a tree that you know it is not a tree for food, you may bring ruin on it and cut it down, so you may build siege-works against the city which is engaging in battle with you until it comes down.

It is essential for "a tree of life" to remain connected to the "Vine":

Joh 15:1-6 I am the true Grapevine, and My Father is the Farmer."
Every branch in Me bringing forth no fruit, He is taking it away, and every one bringing forth fruit, He is cleansing it, that it may be bringing forth more fruit."
Already you are clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
Remain in Me. I also am in you. According as the branch can not be bringing forth fruit from itself, if it should not be remaining in the grapevine, thus neither you, if you should not be remaining in Me."
I am the Grapevine. You are the branches. He who is remaining in Me, and I in him, this one is bringing forth much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing."
If anyone should not be remaining in Me, he was cast out as a branch, and it withered. And they are gathering them, and into the fire are they casting them, and they are being burned."

However, there is a difference between what the Word of Yahweh states as both a "A tree of life" and "THE tree of life"

Perhaps more on that later because I don't want this post to get tooo long.

Anywho, we know that Prov. 11:30 does not pertain to witnessing and I now see why.  Trees, salt, light, branches do not talk, (i will stay with trees, though), a tree does not argue, it does not pursued you to come over to it, it does not defend itself (it does not have to say "hey, look at me I am a banana tree) it does not tempt anyone to eat from it.  A tree just "IS".  It does exactly what it was created to do.   BE A TREE!!!  and its fruit speaks for itself.  It's fruit gives life, it makes strong.


The fruit (kindness, gentleness, slow to anger, slow to speak, quick to listen, long-suffering, not easily offended, joyous, peaceful, etc...{one fruit encompassing many qualities}) of a righteous man is a tree of life, and he (this tree) that gains souls (by its good fruit) is wise (wisdom is a tree of life)

We show our fruit by our works, by our actions, by our words.  This is how we glorify our Father.  Notice also that it does not read "fruits of a righteous man" but "fruit" singular.  Fruit that emcompasses many qualities.

We are salt, light, and trees of life to the world and they should be able to see that without our saying a word.!!!  We gain souls because they see the goodness of our Father working through and in us.

Mat 5:16  so let your light shine before men, that they may see your good works, and may glorify your Father who is in the heavens.

Charrie

[Deborah-Leigh]

Prov 11: 30 (Rotherham)
The fruit of the righteous, is a tree of life, and, he that RESCUETH souls, is wise.

does not even pertain to winning souls.  What does it pertain to?

Ref to Rotherham translation courtesy of aqr with thanks.

I believe a witness to the above Scripture is as follows:

Matt 25 : 42 For I was hungered, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink.

If we believers and followers and keepers of Gods commandments and teachings, do not yield His Spirit to the blind and deaf, but we rather withold our blessings in a self lording it over others who are not yet healed or delivered, then yes, we are useless labourers in the field that is the world. This does not mean we go about in a careless self promoting manner.

Also note the Scripture that Daywalker presented quote,
 

Matthew 25:45 Then shall He be answering them, saying, 'Verily, I am saying to you, In as much as you do it not to one of these, the least, neither do you it to Me.'"[/[/

color

Salt is tasted and light is soundless.

We are the salt of the earth but if that salt shall loose its savour, what is it good for?


Charrie you comment that, quote

We gain souls because they see the goodness of our Father working through and in us.

Understanding comes by the Spirit of God Who ordains and gives Spiritual ears and eyes to those who can not see or hear. This happens only in Gods appointed Time. It is God who makes the pot hardened in preparation of His Wrath or softened by His Mercy according to His Plan and His Purpose to the Glory of His Will.

We do not and can not gain souls. This notion is a false teaching.  

It is taught throughout the whole world of Christendom. Christians are taught they must "witness for Jesus" and in so doing will "win" some souls for Jesus.
>
>
WINNING SOULS FOR JESUS?
[Two Billion Strong and Counting…?]

It is ALL OF GOD. It is not wrong to tell others of your knowledge of God and His Word. It is not, however, your responsibility to "get people saved." Only God can do that.

It is GOD who does the calling:

"For ye see your calling brethren how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called. But God has chosen [Who? ‘GOD’] the weak things of this world to confound the things which are mighty…" (I Cor. 1:26-27).

It is GOD who does the dragging:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which has sent Me, draw him [Gk: ‘drag him’]…" (John 6:44).

It is CHRIST Who chooses from those His Father dragged:

"Ye have not chosen Me, but I HAVE CHOSEN YOU…" (John 15:16).

Eventually this will include all mankind:

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me" (John 12:32).

And all will respond to God’s judgments and chastisements:

"That at the name of Jesus EVERY knee should bow, of those in heaven, and those in earth, and those under the earth; And that EVERY tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father" (Phil. 2:10-11—See also Isa. 26:9b).

And let’s not forget:

"…no man CAN say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit" (I Cor. 12:3b). http://bible-truths.com/souls.htm


All souls are Gods and His workmanship to His Glory.

Arc

[charrie]

Charrie you comment that, quote

Quote
We gain souls because they see the goodness of our Father working through and in us.

Understanding comes by the Spirit of God Who ordains and gives Spiritual ears and eyes to those who can not see or hear. This happens only in Gods appointed Time. It is God who makes the pot hardened in preparation of His Wrath or softened by His Mercy according to His Plan and His Purpose to the Glory of His Will.

We do not and can not gain souls. This notion is a false teaching. 

Thank you, Arc.

I had not realized just how much unlearning I must do.  It is sad, indeed.  No, we do not and cannot gain souls.  This is NOT my job, not my responsibility.  Is is enough on my plate just being transformed into our Big Brothers image. 

And, until that process is completed, which will not be done until after resurrection, right I will strive by the grace of Yahweh to be a "good fruit bearing tree" for His glory.  Man will SEE my fruit and glory HIM.

I dare NOT believe that I am capable of gaining souls for the Father while in my fleshly condition.  How am I to know whom the Father chooses  
 
(Isa 55:9)YLT  For high have the heavens been above the earth, So high have been My ways above your ways, And My thoughts above your thoughts.

Funny thing, , I feel even more such a wonderful release and relief.  It is just to much responsibility, it is a man-made false burden put upon the sheep.

Charrie

[aqrinc]

Pro 11:30 (CLV)
The fruit of a righteous man is a tree of life, And he who procures souls is wise."

GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ Are The Wise Ones Here; He Jesus Christ Is Who procures (Wins) Souls With His Sacrifice (Redeeming the purchased possession).

We; including (The Whole Creation) are the purchased (Ransomed) possession.

Mat 20:28 (KJV)
Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.

Eph 1: 13-14 (KJV)
13  In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14  Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

1Tim 2: 5-6 (KJV)
5  For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
6  Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Here are three other witnesses.

Witness 1: Gal 1:4 (KJV)[/b] 
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:

Witness 2: 1Pe 2:24 (KJV)[/b]
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Witness 3: Heb 1: 3-4 (KJV)[/b]
3  Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
4  Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.

george.