Accountability and responsibility

[Ocean]

Hi anyone,

I've tried to read the email letters to Ray but cannot seem to open the letter regarding accountability and responsibility. I've been doing a lot of praying about this annoying habit of smoking  i've become drawn to. I used to be a social smoker (only when I drink) but now its a daily habit. Been on/off this for 2-3 yrs now...but it seem to get worse.

I know that God has dealt with other major areas in my life [anger, bitterness, unforgiveness] that i have struggled with since childhood and i'm getting better and better at dealing with it. But this 'thorn' (smoking) has not been dealt with despite my many conversations with God and earnest prayers.

Am i responsible or accountable? I thought they were the same thing? PLS HELP!

Desperately seeking,
Ocean

[Roy Coates]

Hey Ocean,
I will pray for your courage and strength in your struggle. Know that God is surely dealing with you about this and will give you what you need. I opened the link you were asking about and pasted below. Peace, Roy

God bless you Ray,

I want to first start off for thanking God for you and the website. The many truths that have been presented have helped me get out of my captive state that the church has had me in for a long time. I now want to have SCRIPTURES that back up EVERYTHING that I have been taught, because most of it has been presented to me from the "faulty" King James and that has caused me to believe (and teach) in error.   

Upon reading your paper on free will, I came across this quote and I would like more clarification.

"The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma."

My Question is: How then (or why) is it that if there is no such thing as free will, there is such a thing as accountability? For if God is in control of everything, and He has done everything "according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His Will" - then how can we be held accountable for the things that we "do"?

Respectfully,

Chris

[Ray Replies]

Dear Chris:

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you.  God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE!  True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT! 

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying:  Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED?  Why?   Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them.  IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT.   "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well!  We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray

[Ocean]

Thanks Roy for that link. I'm still trying to wrap my brains  around this one. The hardest part of understanding my 'thorn' is that it was a social habit before but now its a 'pain' . I don't have a thrill to drink often anymore [used to be a Fri night ritual] but my smoking has just gone worse   

I remember one of the 'biggies' i thought could NEVER be dealt with was harboring unforgiveness. I had mastered the 'art' of keeping a tally of those who had wronged me....i would distance myself from them and hit-back (verbally) when the opportunity presents itself...off course inflating the situation while at it. Now, only through God's power has He given me the heart to be quick to forgive and be able to save the relationship, no matter how badly i've been wronged. I've realized [after the incident] that my 'enemies' have come to respect me even when they don't necessarily agree with me. It has had a huge positive change in my relationship with others...starting from my own family.

I have prayed many times about this habit, know the health risks, don't believe in free-will and the body being God's temple etc etc....but why is it that i cannot seem to stop my 'fleshly' desire 

Roy, i appreciate your prayers and help here...thanks

Still Hopeful,
Ocean

[judith collier]

Ocean, it's the urges we can't deal with as they are so powerful because our bodies are addicted to nicotine. I almost quit once just paying attention to those awful urges. They come about every 20 min. but they do lose power after awhile and the urges are farther apart. Someone said that quitting smoking was harder than getting off heroin. I, too, have prayed but actually fear of failure stops me from trying to quit again. The urges undo me. I can't even think straight and I spin my wheels not getting anything done. So, I asked God if he didn't see to delivering me from this at least don't let me die from it as I am afraid of not getting my breath.I got leukemia instead now. Just great!! I told God I didn't think that was funny!! For some reason this disease doesn't scare me and I don't worry about it, I have peace with it and believe if God wants me to go this way so be it.

[mhykx]

Ocean,

I once thought they are the same.

But as I study the word of God, read the stuff here in B-T, ask from God the Father the wisdom and understanding, I began to understand the difference between the two.  And you will too, Ocean.  Just be patient.

The subject of free will alone is fascinating....and liberating!  When you begin to understand the sovereignty of God, you begin to have true peace of mind because you no longer depend on your own strength but in grace and mercy of God.

God, in due time, will direct you to steps on how you can quit your smoking.

Heb 4:16  Let us have confidence, then, and approach God's throne, where there is grace. There we will receive mercy and find grace to help us just when we need it.

-Mike

[aqrinc]

Ocean,

I once thought they are the same.

But as I study the word of God, read the stuff here in B-T, ask from God the Father the wisdom and understanding, I began to understand the difference between the two.  And you will too, Ocean.  Just be patient.

The subject of free will alone is fascinating....and liberating!  When you begin to understand the sovereignty of God, you begin to have true peace of mind because you no longer depend on your own strength but in grace and mercy of God.

God, in due time, will direct you to steps on how you can quit your smoking.

Heb 4:16  Let us have confidence, then, and approach God's throne, where there is grace. There we will receive mercy and find grace to help us just when we need it.

-Mike

Mike,

That is very well written; indeed you are guilty of doing your homework . That Scripture is a perfect answer to Oceans question. Here are a few more Scriptures to answer why the struggle is with us (until That Day).

Rom 8: (19-25 GNB)
19  All of creation waits with eager longing for God to reveal his children.
20  For creation was condemned to lose its purpose, not of its own will, but because God willed it to be so. Yet there was the hope
21  that creation itself would one day be set free from its slavery to decay and would share the glorious freedom of the children of God.
22  For we know that up to the present time all of creation groans with pain, like the pain of childbirth.
23  But it is not just creation alone which groans; we who have the Spirit as the first of God's gifts also groan within ourselves as we wait for God to make us his children and set our whole being free.
24  For it was by hope that we were saved; but if we see what we hope for, then it is not really hope. For who of us hopes for something we see?
25  But if we hope for what we do not see, we wait for it with patience.

george.

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Ocean

When I first came to the teaching that expounds the differences between accountability and responsibility, I too was astounded.

I can only tell you what I believe and then point you to the Scriptures and the Teachings.


Luke 18 : 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to ME A SINNER.

When we see that we miss the mark here and we miss the mark there, we are seeing the mote not the beam.
The publican realised he was a sinner. God brings each one of us to this realisation and it is a most painful process.

God first causes you to hate the sin (missing the mark) seeing the mote.  At this point we will not necessarily realise that we sin automatically because of what we are. We are carnal. God is Responsible for making you NOT LIKE to sin anymore. It is His work that causes you to begin to suffer from the bondage to sin.

Rom 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope.

It is GOD Who does the CREATING and it is GOD Who does the SUBJECTING http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

God is responsible for subjecting us to vanity. This is how God begins His Work to make us into His Image. He subjects us to carnality, flesh, blindness, deafness and everything that contrasts to and with His Spirit. This is the Plan and Purpose of God. It is a process.

As long as we like to sin, we shall keep right on sinning. As we learn to dispare of sin, appeal to God, cry to Him, then accept that sin is not only what we DO but that we sin because of what we ARE then we begin to see the deeper significance of repentance. Ref http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3709.0.html . 

"Let no man ['let not any person,' RSV, 'Let no ONE...'] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction]. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god], or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Whenever man builds his spiritual house upon the spiritual sand, his spiritual house will fall. And it is then that God reveals to him the wild beast that comes out of the sea. What does Paul tell us happens when there comes a 'FALLING AWAY' first? What follows? When our house on sand falls, what is then revealed? Why "the LAWLESS one" is "REVEALED." When the falling away occurs, then the man of sin, 'the lawless one' 'the one destined for destruction' is REVEALED.
And what a revelation it is! What a blast of the trumpet it is! What a shock to all humanity when at long last this wild beast is revealed to EVERYONE! Trust me when I tell you that it is a hard pill to swallow. It will shake you to your sandy foundation.
As I am now at the end of this Part XIII, I don't want to close without revealing just who it is that constitutes the wild beast of Revelation 13 and the lawless one of II Thes. 2. I did title this Installment: Who is the Beast? And so I will tell you.
"So okay Ray, enough, TELL US WHO THE BEAST IS. Who? Tell us WHO?"
The "beast" is you!http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html

This is by far more important than seeing that we have a fault here and a sin there. Knowing this is by far more valuable that a slight tweak to alter our habits or releave us from our perceived one or two little imperfections.

The beam in the eye is us. We are out of Adam not heaven. We need a make over not just a slight adjustment or upgrade.

Why should we be accountable for our enjoyment of sin if God make us that way? God DOES NOT ENJOY SIN and God is making us into HIS image that is not carnal. Is God jealous that we get the enjoyment from sinning. NO! Carnality enjoys sin. We are carnal and God is Spirit. God's ways are not the ways of carnality. God is Spirit and Truth.

Can we change ourselves? No we can not change our sinning automatically carnal literal spiritual blindness and deafness that resents and hates the Spirit of God. God is Responsible for changing us because it is only by His Spirit and His Goodness that we can ever be converted and made into the Spiritual image of Christ. This is Gods work and achievement not ours. And for the magnificent Work of God making us into His Image, He shall have ALL the Glory. Why? Because HE is Responsible and we are His work not our own.

As Ray teaches, It is GOD Who does the CREATING and it is GOD Who does the SUBJECTING http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html

It is also God who liberates us from our sin and changes us by His Spirit from what and who we are to what and who HE IS. God is Spirit and Truth. God is making us into HIS image out of our carnal sinful selves. The pains of our imperfections is part of the process, Plan and Purpose of God. Should we be grateful for our sins and imperfections? No. Should we be grateful that God subjects us to carnality to an experience of evil that HE will liberate, convert and change us from into His Spirit and Truth. Yes!

Rom 8 : 20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of Him who has subjected the same in hope.

I hope this comforts and helps you.

Arc

[Roy Coates]

Ocean, I re read this thread and Realized I forgot a piece of information that could be usefull to you in your and anybody's quest to stop smoking. I used it as well as my wife and friends. Folks that took it for three months or more had a higher success rate. I was able to quit after two weeks and still smoke free. It is expensive and is not covered under most insurance.

http://www.chantix.com/

[Roy Martin]

Hello Ocean,
 I have struggled with this smoking thing so much that I'm starting to feel like I'm pathetic.
I had all these questions and prayers of begging to be delivered and now I'm smoking twice as much, but something is happening. I can see the desire going away. Every time I start to light one or even have the thought, or buy them, and as I'm smoking one I am pathetic to say the least.
 I cant get it off my mind that Jesus gave up His life for us in a very brutal way, and we cant give up cigarettes for Him. I am pathetic and weak, but I am going to be delivered from smoking. I know this as sure as the sun will rise and set.
 When I got out of prison 5 years ago,it was the second week of going to church, my sister was going with me.It was her second time to go, she was so excited and on fire for God. As we were in the car on the way, I said to her that God was going to bless me with a car today. She asked, how could I know this and what if He doesn't? I said," watch and see, I promise that God is going to give me a car today. We walked into the church Five minutes later, and as we entered the doors of the sanctuary a friend was standing there with a woman. We do the greet thing and he asked, hey Roy, do you need a car? I looked at my sister and her jaw almost hit the floor. I said heck yes I do, he said this woman here was just telling me she wants to give a car away. Its yours go get it.
 The point of this story is that God gave me great faith when I asked him just before going to church for a car. It was Him that put the prayer in me. It is Him that is making me feel pathetic when I smoke, and I have the same kind of faith now as I had when I got the car.
I don't know if I'm making any sense to you. I'm not very good at expressing things.
I am going to make the choice soon to put them down w/o looking back because this is the choice God wants me to make,and its the choice I want to make, but first God has to change my heart from wanting to quit because it will kill me, ( self ) to wanting to quit for Him and not myself.
 I hope this helps you.

Peace
Roy Martin
 
 

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Roy Martin

You wrote that God...

It is Him that is making me feel pathetic when I smoke,

and

God has to change my heart from wanting to quit because it will kill me, ( self ) to wanting to quit for Him and not myself.

Here are a few email excerpts from Ray that relate to your experience which I believe we can all enjoy because sin is common to us all.


The ONLY way that I know of to break these sins and have victory over them is for God to empower you with a greater motivation to live righteously than to live un-righteously. If what you desire to be is "good," then there is only One Source:

                "And also that every man should eat and drink, and enjoy the good of all his labor, It is the gift of God" (Ecc. 3:13).

                "EVERY good gift and EVERY perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning" (James 1:17).

            We will continue to pray for all those who desire to come out of the bondage and slavery of "...the sin which does so easily beset us...." (Heb. 12:1) http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7111.0.html

God gives us an experience of "evil"--things that are wrong (Ecc. 1:13, Concordant Literal New Testament), so that we will learn and desire to do what is RIGHT.  This spiritual truth is entirely too high for the carnal mind to comprehend.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1189.0.html

When one sins willfully or voluntarily, it means that he has lost his conscience about those particular sins. He feels no guilt nor shame for committing them.  We all sin, but sin is not to "reign" over us, as Paul admonishes.  When we sin, we should recognize it as sin, and feel shame, and repent, and go on. Once we feel no guilt nor shame, there only remains "judgment" which will assuredly remove (through fiery trials and purging) these "adversaries" that plague the human race.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,7848.0.html

But the "lust of the flesh and the lust of the eys and the pride of life," are the biggies that God will allow to drag on in one's life until they really get sick of these sins. Some people never get sick of these sins--they LIKE them.  But the "Goodness of God" (Rom. 2:4) can make you repent and abhore these things.  We never conquer every sin as long as we are in the flesh, but we can come to the place that "sin no longer REIGNS over us."  I have no desire to sin. I do not think about sinning. There is nothing in the realm of sin that has any value to me.  I'll let Jesus be my Judge as to how far I have come in overcoming sin.  You have to cry out to God to rescue from sin. You cannot and you will not do it on your own power.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4069.0.html

Arc

[Ocean]

Judy,
Thanks for sharing...you see, i'm mortified in contracting any smoking-related illnesses. So i quit for a few days than its back to square one Its been like that for the past 2-3 yrs 

Thanks Mike, George, Arc, RC, RM. I know in my heart that only God can deliver me from my 'flesh'...He has done it in other MAJOR areas. I guess i wanted it [deliverance] NOW before it causes more HARM. I have prayed fervently that if there is a lesson He wants me to learn that He would have to knock my head-out to tell me what ....

Ditto, Roy Martin....i feel so pathetic everytime i light up  .

Roy Coutes...getting 'chantix' to the islands [middle of the Pac Ocean] will be a feat.....the ordinary islander like me don't shop online with visa cards ...thanks all the same.

I cannot wait (3 days time) to fly home to mum in Fiji. Perhaps getting some encouragement from a retired nurse(mum) would do wonders to me. I have 8 days to spend with her....will savour every moment with her since i haven't been home since 2004.

Thanks again to all my BT friends here...appreciate the encouragement.

In Hope Always,
Ocean

[cjwood]

ocean,
traveling mercies on your planned trip to fiji. i cannot imagine not seeing my momma for 4+yrs, and i can't imagine not seeing my daughter for that long. sounds like you have a deep love for your mum and i know that having your momma's arms around you after so long will be healing in many ways. listen to her experienced wisdom as a nurse when you talk to her about smoking. enjoy having a cup o' tea and giving each other foot massages. my daughter and i enjoy that nicety as often as we can. be patient with yourself regarding the smoking and the struggle it is to quit. as all of said regarding smoking (or another other "thorn/habit"), it is ALL in God's timing. if it is guilt you are feeling whenever you light up, then maybe try to remember something ray smith said about himself when it came to him giving up any particular sin. he said it was the guilt about doing it that was able to cause him to stop. maybe that will work for you, maybe it won't. take heart in knowing that it is God Who is causing you to feel badly about still smoking. i will keep you in my prayers. again, enjoy your time with you mum. let us all know how your visit with her went after you get back.

love in Christ,
claudia

[Ocean]

Claudia,

I felt a warm-motherly emotion when reading your post  ....thank you!! Now that i'm a mum/wife, i have come to appreciate my mum MORE than i tell her over the phone. Expressing affection in the islands is seen as a western habit that is to be shunned  . But since 2005, i've come to verbalize 'i love you and miss you mum' before hanging up (phone).....and she has always responded likewise. 

This may seem like a trivial matter to western countries but i have never heard my mum say that to me while growing up. But her actions was enough to tell me that us/kids were her top priority. I'm blessed beyond measure 

Yes! i'll give an update on return. Hopefully i can figure the photo attachment 'madness',lol!! Even the current military rule  at home is not enough to deter my trip....home (is) sweet home ....like the song on American Idol!!

Warm blessings,
Ocean

[cjwood]

i thought about the current uprising, a.k.a. military rule when i remembered you were from fiji. i pray for your hedge of protection in traveling and while you are there, and also prayers for your mum who still resides in fiji. how very fortunate you are to be able to visit the place of your homestead, and what a beautiful place it must be. i personally have always had a deep admiration for the oceans which our Father created. i grew up along the lower texas coastline in corpus christi. most likely not as beautiful as fiji, but i was still able to appreciate the awesomeness of the water.

cheers,
claudia

[judith collier]

I'll pray for your safety too Ocean and a wonderful vacation. Judy

[Ocean]

Claudia & Judy,

Thank you for your prayers and well wishes....i feel blessed to have BT-family members reach out from across the globe.

As of today, i am amazed at how God has worked this trip out for me. Will give you the details when i return  .

Still enthralled by God's sovereignty,
Ocean

ps/
I'm about done with the p/copies of LoF series. I was thinking that since i'll be with mum for 8 days.....i will tell her to read it when i've left. I just want to spend quality time with her....rather than preach to her. Can't help but feel (since i'm new to BT) that my task is to deliver the copies to her and let the H/Spirit do its work in her. I might say smth that may contradict Ray's good work as i have a lot of (un)learning to do myself.

Any suggestions?

[Ninny]

Listen here girl, you just love your mum and don't let anything cloud that! You pray for her and definitely let God do the rest! Loving her is your main objective!
Have fun!!
Love ya!
Kathy

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Ocean

Your Mum sounds very loving and kind.

....i feel blessed to have BT-family members reach out from across the globe.

Fiji sounds like a tropical paradise. We have travelled only to Mauritius and Cayman Islands which we so enjoy compared to urgency's of Western living.

Can't help but feel (since i'm new to BT) that my task is to deliver the copies to her......

We live in South Africa so going across this Ocean to you via Cyber Space, I believe that God has caused you to bring the gift of His teachings in the Ray Smith LOF series, to your precious Mother. What ever His reason He will know why.

Arc