Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[mharrell08]

As all the fires are the same, what makes the Lake of Fire in the next age more severe (wrath, indignation, perdition)?

Excerpt from Lake of Fire #16-E (http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm):

ALL FIRES ARE THE SAME ONE "CONSUMING FIRE" OF GOD

GEHENNA FIRE IS JUDGMENT:

In Matt. 5:21-26 Jesus lists four ways in which we can be judged: [1] the Judgment, [2] the Council, [3] Gehenna fire, and [4] Prison. But hereafter in verse 29 Jesus uses Gehenna, and again in verse 30, Gehenna. And pay close attention for what sins this fire is used: "...if your right EYE offend you... if your right HAND offend you..." it must be removed, or the penalty is Gehenna fire. In Matt. 10:28 Jesus mentions again the judgment of Gehenna. In Matt. 18:9 He again uses Gehenna fire. In Matt. 23:33 Jesus warns the Pharisees of Gehenna judgment:

"Ye serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation [Gk: 'a tribunal, justice, JUDGMENT'] of Gehenna?"

And so Gehenna fire is clearly seen as a way in which Jesus Judges sinners, and specifically, the sins of the eyes, hands, and feet. Gehenna fire IS JUDGMENT. What else is Gehenna?

GEHENNA FIRE IS THE FIRE NEVER QUENCHED:

In Matt. 9:43 & 45, the Judgment for offending with our eyes, hands, and feet is again mentioned, and here we learn that the fire of this judgment "...never shall be quenched." It is not eternal fire, but it is fire that shall not be "put out" until it "burns out" all that it is designed to purge. So Gehenna fire is also the notorious "unquenchable fire." And so Gehenna fire and unquenchable fire are the same fire of JUDGMENT.

GEHENNA FIRE IS THE FURNACE OF FIRE:

"The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things [those] that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth" (Matt. 13:41-42).

This is the same Judgment of Gehenna fire which is used to judge all those who offend with their eyes, hands, and feet. Here ALL who offend are put into a furnace of fire which is the same as the unquenchable fire, and the Gehenna fire.

GEHENNA FIRE IS EVERLASTING [EONIAN] FIRE:

Next notice that Judgment for offending with our eyes, hands, or feet, is once again called Gehenna fire in Matt. 18:9. But back in verse 8 this Judgment for the same sin is called "everlasting [Gk: 'aionios/eonian/age-lasting] fire."

So here we have Scriptural proof that Gehenna fire, and everlasting [eonian/age-abiding] fire are one and the same fire. And so "everlasting/eonian fire" is just another term for the judgment of Gehenna.

GEHENNA FIRE/EONIAN FIRE IS THE LAKE OF FIRE:

When Jesus returns to this earth in glory with His holy angels (Matt. 25:31), He will come with great power to JUDGE (Rev. 19:11), and those who oppose Him will be thrown into "a lake of fire" (Verse 20). Satan also is cast into this "lake of fire" (Rev. 20:10), and "death and hell/hades" is cast into this "lake of fire" (Verse 14).

Now then, what fire does Jesus say he will use for His judgment on the goats and on the Devil and his messengers? It is "everlasting/eonian/age-abiding fire" (Matt. 25:41). Once more we have clear Scriptural proof that all these descriptions of fiery Judgment are the very same fire, and that Fire is GOD:

"For our God is A CONSUMING FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).

Gehenna fire is the furnace of fire, the unquenchable fire, the everlasting [Gk; eonian/age-abiding] fire, and the lake of fire, as we just saw proven by Scripture.

And this fire by five names is God's Judgment:

upon His disciples (Matt. 5:22, 29, 30)

upon the Pharisees (Matt. 23:33)

upon the chaff (Matt. 3:12)

upon the spiritual goats (Matt. 25:32 & 41)

upon trees which bear no good fruit (Matt. 7:19)

upon the spiritual tares (Matt. 13:40)

upon all the WICKED (Matt. 13:49-50)

All these five "fires" are the same one fire, and this fire is the "Consuming Fire" of God that JUDGES BOTH US AND THE WORLD. And it is clearly stated that "The lake of fire IS the second death" (Rev. 20:14 & 21:8 ). The lake of fire is JUDGMENT, and the lake of fire is the second death. Therefore: the SECOND death IS GOD'S JUDGEMENTS UPON BOTH THE WICKED AND THE ELECT!

There is to be judgment upon the wicked and judgment upon God's Elect of The House of God. And both of these groups are judged by the spiritual fire of God Almighty, "For our God IS a consuming fire" (Heb. 12:29).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on God's Elect:

"That the trial of your faith [God's Elect], being much more precious than of gold that perishes, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honor and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ... judgment must begin at the house of God" (I Pet. 1:7 & 4:17).

FIRE & JUDGMENT on the UNGODLY:

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men" (II Pet. 3:7).

Revelation shows us that the "lake of fire" is where all humanity will be "judged" (Rev. 20:13), and this lake of fire is the SECOND death:

"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the SECOND death" (Rev. 20:14)

and

 "the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the SECOND death" (Rev. 21:8 ).


Thanks,

Marques

P.S. Yes, mods have questions too...

[arion]

This is just me and I might be totally off base but it's something I have thought about.  What would it be like to see others like me who have been purified from their sins and now have immortality and serving in the Kingdom of God and yet I'm on the outside enduring the judgment of being shown my evil and wicked heart?

What will it be like to fully see how holy, just and merciful the Lord is and to be confronted with the full weight of my own depravity?  How about my private sins that I thought only I knew about and now these sins done in private are shouted from the housetops?

Luk 12:3  Therefore whatsoever ye have spoken in darkness shall be heard in the light; and that which ye have spoken in the ear in closets shall be proclaimed upon the housetops.

How about being confronted with the truths that I have learned and yet did not apply in my life?  What about all the opportunities for good that went undone?  My judgement will be more strict then those still in Babylon who have heard none of these things.

Luk 12:47-48  And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

These are just a few things that I have seen as I have spent some time thinking about them.  I want to know too what it's going to be like for those who have to endure it.  I think there is scriptural support that the judgement for each person is individual as is the trials by fire in this life.  That's why I want to show mercy in this life because if I'm not one of the elect I'm going to need that mercy multiplied back to me a hundredfold.

[Robin]

I was just wondering the same thing this week.

Here are some verses on mercy.

James 2:12-14 (New International Version)

12Speak and act as those who are going to be judged by the law that gives freedom, 13because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful. Mercy triumphs over judgment!

Matthew 5:7
Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy.


Hebrews 10
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay,"and again, "The Lord will judge his people."31It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


We know though that all will receive mercy.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

[aqrinc]

Jesus Christ, has plainly stated (and we now understand) what is required of All who would follow in His Footsteps. That is why we must Rest In HIS SABBATH REST; and cease from working our works.

Mat 11: 28-30 (LITV)
28  Come to Me, all those laboring and being burdened, and I will give you rest.
29  Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, because I am meek and lowly in heart, "and you will find rest to your souls." (Jer. 6:16)
30  For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

There is no need to wonder what will happen, here is what Jesus Christ Has to Say about those of us who know and disobey.

Luk 12: 45-49 (CLV)
45 Now if that slave should be saying in his heart, 'My lord is delaying his coming,' and should be beginning both to beat the boys and the maids and to be eating and drinking and to be drunk,
46 the lord of that slave will be arriving on a day for which he is not hoping and at an hour which he does not know, and shall be cutting him asunder and shall be appointing his part with the unfaithful."
47 Now that slave who knows the will of his lord and does not make ready, nor yet does aught with a view to his will, shall have many lashes."
48 Now he who does not know, yet does what deserves blows, shall have few lashes. Now to everyone to whom much was given, from him much will be sought, and to whom they committed much, more excessively will they be requesting of him."
49 Fire came I to be casting on the earth, and what will I, if it were already kindled?

And here is a Scripture and witness to clarify; who is guaranteed to not be in the First Resurrection. There are no neutrals in this lifelong battle of ours, but There Is Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ, our Champion.

These Scriptures below, prove there is no unpardonable sin forever. (It is only in this age and the following age)

Luk 12: 8-10 (LITV)
8  But I say to you, Everyone who may confess Me before men, the Son of Man will also confess him before the angels of God.
9  But he that denies me before man shall be denied before the angels of God.
10  And everyone who shall say a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven Him; but the ones blaspheming against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven. 

Witness

Mat 12: 30-32 (LITV)
30  The one who is not with Me is against Me, and the one who does not gather with Me scatters.
31  Because of this, I say to you, Every sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men, but the blasphemy concerning the Spirit shall not be forgiven to men.
32  And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him. But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, not in this age nor in the coming one.

george .

[Akira329]

As all the fires are the same, what makes the Lake of Fire in the next age more severe (wrath, indignation, perdition)?

Hey Marques,
These verses come to mind when considering your question:
Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Joh 2:15  And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

His wrath is also compared to a winepress. Grapes are squeezed with great pressure, the juice is extracted but left is the pulp and seeds
The same with us!
Jesus done those things swiftly I can only say it will be the same in judgement.

Does this help?

Antaiwan

[mharrell08]

As all the fires are the same, what makes the Lake of Fire in the next age more severe (wrath, indignation, perdition)?

Hey Marques,
These verses come to mind when considering your question:
Rev 1:1  The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Joh 2:15  And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;

His wrath is also compared to a winepress. Grapes are squeezed with great pressure, the juice is extracted but left is the pulp and seeds
The same with us!
Jesus done those things swiftly I can only say it will be the same in judgement.

Does this help?

Antaiwan

Hey Antaiwan,

Yes, all the comments help but I'm wondering what makes the spiritual pressure in the judgment of the unjust more severe than the spiritual pressure on God's Elect now...more severe as far as wrath, indignation, perdition, etc.


Thanks,

Marques

[Marlene]

Yes, I have always wondered that too Marques. Waiting to hear replies on this.

Marlene

[Kat]

Hi Marques,

As I was thinking on this it occurred to me that now we "judge ourselves" and this seems to be a rather private and personal thing between us and the Lord, at this time.

1Co 11:31  For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32  But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.

In this world the Elect are bombarded on every side by corruption and evil. I think God holds the Elect in His hand and carefully gives us the chastening to develop the Elect into His ally. This is done lovingly (not with wrath) preparing/training them for the monumental task ahead.  They will be working with Christ during His reign and they will be His "fellow workers."  So this is not the same situation or outcome as for those coming up in the White Throne judgment.

1Co 3:7  So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
v. 8  Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
v. 9  For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.

Now if we fast forward to the time of God's judgment/condemnation on the world.  Christ is ruling and the world, which I believe will immediately become a very different place... no crime, corruption, violence, or evil of any kind can slip by Him and the Elect.  Now, at this time, people have ways and places to hid to comment evil, but at that time there will be nothing hidden from Him, all will be revealed. 

If you will think for just a minute about some of the evil that has taken place in this world.  Then you can only imagine how His righteous indignation will burn against these people who have willingly volunteered (some even gladly I believe) to carried out atrocious acts against their fellow human being.  This judgment will come upon people immediately and unrelenting, few or many stripes as needed though.  He will expose the shameful thoughts and deeds of everyone and that will torment those prideful people to their very core.

Heb 4:13  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Isa 47:3  Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your shame shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no man.

2Th 1:8  in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
v. 9  who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
v. 20  For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
v. 21  But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
   
mercy, peace and love
Kat

[mharrell08]

Heb 4:13  And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

Isa 47:3  Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your shame shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no man.

2Th 1:8  in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
v. 9  who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

John 3:19  And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
v. 20  For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
v. 21  But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
   
mercy, peace and love
Kat

Thanks Kat...these 2 excerpts of scripture in particular help a great deal.

But one thing...how do you think one's embarrassing sins being brought to light correlates to God's wrath & indignation? The Lord's wrath is to spill everyone's hidden transgressions out in the open? I don't know if that is a spiritual match...though both do happen spiritually as the scripture state so.

I was talking to Antaiwan yesterday, and one incident from scripture that seems to shadow God's wrath is when the Israelites began to worship the molten calf when Moses took a while to come down from the mount:

Exodus 32:1 & 4 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him...And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf

Exodus 32:9-14  And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.

And of course we know our God is a 'consuming fire' [Heb 12:29] that judges & purges us of our carnality so 'wax hot which consumes them' foreshadows that spiritual fact.

So that comes full circle to my initial question: as the fires that judge the Elect now and the wicked in the next age are the same spiritual fire, how is this same fire, in the next age, with wrath & indignation?

As we are no better than the most carnal of humanity, and God is using His spiritual fire to bring His Elect into spiritual perfection in this age, why is wrath & indignation needed to bring about spiritual perfection in the wicked in the next age? It wasn't needed with the Elect who, without the grace of God, would be just as carnal & wicked as anyone in the age to come.

What makes me ask this question is the attitude or perception of the church regarding the rest of humanity that does not follow their man-made doctrines. The church has an attitude of 'I'm saved, to hell with anyone else'...I could never tolerate this attitude (not of my own doing, the Lord would not allow me). So I don't care for it even now, having a knowledge of the truth...I don't like thinking 'Most of humanity is going to suffer God's wrath & indignation...oh well'.

I'm no better than the worst of the worst and I have not needed the wrath of God to bring me to repentance...so why does anyone else?


Thanks,

Marques

[Kat]

Hi Marques,

It's hard to imagine how God will expose everybody's sins, we know that everybody will give an accounting. So people can hide behind their secrets now, but there won't be any of that when His judgments come. Now people can have secret lives, they can have the most vile thoughts towards others and it's not known. But in the LoF everything will be revealed and people that have built up many years of secret perversions will be exposed. Imagine having every secret thoughts brought to the attention of everybody around. Bad habits are hard to break and it would be tormenting to have every wrong thought immediately corrected.

As we are no better than the most carnal of humanity, and God is using His spiritual fire to bring His Elect into spiritual perfection in this age,

We are no better than anyone is true, but as we know God controls all circumstances, I think by and only by the grace of God the Elect are spared from being given "over to a reprobate mind."

Rom 1:28  And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

God is taking special care to give His Elect just the right degree of 'an experience in evil' for them to have an understand of it.  But He is training them to serve Him, which really is different than what the rest of the world are experiencing.  I think God has to deal with the Elect differently, because their outcome needs to be different.

... why is wrath & indignation needed to bring about spiritual perfection in the wicked in the next age?

We can not know what percent of people are so reprobate that they require many stripes - wrath and indignation, it must be a lot.  But we can rest assured that He will deal with each exactly according to what they need and some will require a very firm, even severe hand of correction to begin to straighten them out

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[arion]

As I was thinking on this it occurred to me that now we "judge ourselves" and this seems to be a rather private and personal thing between us and the Lord, at this time.



In this world the Elect are bombarded on every side by corruption and evil. I think God holds the Elect in His hand and carefully gives us the chastening to develop the Elect into His ally. This is done lovingly (not with wrath) preparing/training them for the monumental task ahead. 

Thanks Kat,

This is along the lines with what I've been seeing myself.  We're judging ourselves now and God is showing us in private our total depravity and lack....our nakedness and shame.  This is between us and him.  Unless the believer is engaged in a gross sin for all to see our judgement now is painful to us but hidden to the world.  This is bad enough...but,

To be brought up through the lake of fire and have not only our gross sins exposed before all but the private things of the heart, the thoughts and intentions of the mind.  How many times have I thought something about someone and would not have dared for it to be known openly and now perhaps it's being shouted from the housetops!!  That would be wrath, indignation and horror no matter how you look at it.  We can whitewash ourselves and cover ourselves with a cloak of righteousness now....if we come up in the resurrection to judgment then there is no more cloak or cover, indeed we will be naked in every sense of the word.  Makes me want to have my judgment now.

[Marlene]

Topic Summary
Posted on: Today at 03:14:24 PMPosted by: Arion 
Insert Quote
Quote from: Kat on Today at 08:55:59 AM

As I was thinking on this it occurred to me that now we "judge ourselves" and this seems to be a rather private and personal thing between us and the Lord, at this time.



In this world the Elect are bombarded on every side by corruption and evil. I think God holds the Elect in His hand and carefully gives us the chastening to develop the Elect into His ally. This is done lovingly (not with wrath) preparing/training them for the monumental task ahead.


Thanks Kat,

This is along the lines with what I've been seeing myself.  We're judging ourselves now and God is showing us in private our total depravity and lack....our nakedness and shame.  This is between us and him.  Unless the believer is engaged in a gross sin for all to see our judgement now is painful to us but hidden to the world.  This is bad enough...but,

To be brought up through the lake of fire and have not only our gross sins exposed before all but the private things of the heart, the thoughts and intentions of the mind.  How many times have I thought something about someone and would not have dared for it to be known openly and now perhaps it's being shouted from the housetops!!  That would be wrath, indignation and horror no matter how you look at it.  We can whitewash ourselves and cover ourselves with a cloak of righteousness now....if we come up in the resurrection to judgment then there is no more cloak or cover, indeed we will be naked in every sense of the word.  Makes me want to have my judgment now.
Posted on: Today at 01:35:19 PMPosted   
Arion, This, is exactly how I feel. The way God has dealt with me has been one on one in my life. He knows, what it will take to bring us to our end. If, it takes just him or in public he knows what to do. One, I never wanted to hurt my parents. But, often not hurting my parents has hurt God who is my real Father. He has brought me to this knowledge in my life. He has never left me on my own. He shows me the filth within no one sees. It hurts for sure, but now I know it is for my own good . We might think no one knows, but being convicted by him sure does humble you. Our, earthly parents think they know us when in reality they don't know what is inside the heart. Yes to be sure like Kat and you have shown it will be in the same way for all , but few stripes and many for some. Our Father , knows its what is in the heart that needs changed. Personally, I prefer my correction now. I know, I can only prefer it this way cause he is doing it in me. Just, great to come in to a forum where we think alike. I never, had this in Babylon. Babylon, is a couple hours of show and well all go home. We, never know each other. Not, saying they did not have something going on inside of them. Just, saying I rarely saw it. Most, of the o nes in my church spent about 45 minutes once a week or twice with each other. Nothing, like a family. I can remember when they use to see someone leave Babylon church some of them would say they were not one of us apprently. But, they never thought Gods called out had gone because God drags them out.
In His Love,
Marlene

[EKnight]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere where Ray differentiates between wrath/indignation and chastisement.  Does anyone know where that is? ....Kat??

Eileen

[mharrell08]

I could have sworn that I read somewhere where Ray differentiates between wrath/indignation and chastisement.  Does anyone know where that is? ....Kat??

Eileen

The 'Exposing Secret Rapture Theory' paper (http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm)

Excerpt:

At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:

1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.

AND

2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress

VERSUS

3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance

AND

4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.

Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.

It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.

The Scripture says,

"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).

It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).

I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).

When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:

"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).

"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).

"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).

"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).

"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).

"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).

"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).

"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).

"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).

"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).

"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).

"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:10).

"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).

"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:16).

There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.


Marques

[Deborah-Leigh]

Hi Marques

This is a very pertinent question you raise. It is vital I believe, that students of the Word of God, know how to perceive and comprehend with the due reverence and deep gratitude the fact that God has appointed some to judgment and others to wrath.

We have to evaluate the outcome for those who wave off God and persue their empty addictions to depravities with NO discernment OR regard for God.

Jesus Himself did not pray for the world and neither did He try to avert or go against the way and Plan of God who shall use wrath to the beneficial consequence on the wicked.

John 17 : 8 For I have given unto them the  Words which Thou gavest Me: and they have RECEIVED THEM, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have BELIEVED that Thou didst send Me; 9 I PRAY FOR THEM : I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for THEM which thou hast given Me; for THEY are Thine.

We know that no one can approach the Son of God unless God drags us to Him. We know that no one can choose God or even succeed in being Godly as Godliness is Gods work not ours. We know that God is the potter and that some pots He makes to Wrath and others to Glory.

2 Peter 2 : 8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, VEXED his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. 9 THE LORD KNOWETH HOW TO DELIVER THE GODLY OUT OF TEMPTATIONS, AND TO RESERVE THE unjust unto THE DAY of judgment.

Who are they who the Lord is reserving unto The Day of judgment?

10. But chiefly THEM THAT WALK AFTER THE FLESH in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, SELF-WILLED, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, MADE to be taken and destroyed ( MADE by God for His Plan and Purpose) speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their OWN CORRUPTION.
In sumnation it is valuable to consider the Godly attitude as taught by Ray that we should have as we encounter those to whom God has appointed His Wrath.

We know it is God who frames evil around us.

O man, that’s what we have to repent of.
Whatever O man is.  That’s what we are, because O man is Adam.  O man came out of Adam.  Where did you come from, some place else?  We’re all out of Adam.   And what does Adam do?  Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters and on and on.  Wow, this is O man out of Adam.  This is what he does.  And only by the grace of God, some of us didn’t have to go that route.
.......So be thankful

.....thankful that God has not appointed us to His Wrath, or to perish in our own corruption. God. Our God. Our Sovereign All Mighty All Loving God. That God gave THEM over to a reprobate mind...Rom 1:28

Arc