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With Wrath & Indignation
arion:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 18, 2009, 07:55:59 AM ---
As I was thinking on this it occurred to me that now we "judge ourselves" and this seems to be a rather private and personal thing between us and the Lord, at this time.
In this world the Elect are bombarded on every side by corruption and evil. I think God holds the Elect in His hand and carefully gives us the chastening to develop the Elect into His ally. This is done lovingly (not with wrath) preparing/training them for the monumental task ahead.
--- End quote ---
Thanks Kat,
This is along the lines with what I've been seeing myself. We're judging ourselves now and God is showing us in private our total depravity and lack....our nakedness and shame. This is between us and him. Unless the believer is engaged in a gross sin for all to see our judgement now is painful to us but hidden to the world. This is bad enough...but,
To be brought up through the lake of fire and have not only our gross sins exposed before all but the private things of the heart, the thoughts and intentions of the mind. How many times have I thought something about someone and would not have dared for it to be known openly and now perhaps it's being shouted from the housetops!! That would be wrath, indignation and horror no matter how you look at it. We can whitewash ourselves and cover ourselves with a cloak of righteousness now....if we come up in the resurrection to judgment then there is no more cloak or cover, indeed we will be naked in every sense of the word. Makes me want to have my judgment now.
Marlene:
Topic Summary
Posted on: Today at 03:14:24 PMPosted by: Arion
Insert Quote
Quote from: Kat on Today at 08:55:59 AM
As I was thinking on this it occurred to me that now we "judge ourselves" and this seems to be a rather private and personal thing between us and the Lord, at this time.
In this world the Elect are bombarded on every side by corruption and evil. I think God holds the Elect in His hand and carefully gives us the chastening to develop the Elect into His ally. This is done lovingly (not with wrath) preparing/training them for the monumental task ahead.
Thanks Kat,
This is along the lines with what I've been seeing myself. We're judging ourselves now and God is showing us in private our total depravity and lack....our nakedness and shame. This is between us and him. Unless the believer is engaged in a gross sin for all to see our judgement now is painful to us but hidden to the world. This is bad enough...but,
To be brought up through the lake of fire and have not only our gross sins exposed before all but the private things of the heart, the thoughts and intentions of the mind. How many times have I thought something about someone and would not have dared for it to be known openly and now perhaps it's being shouted from the housetops!! That would be wrath, indignation and horror no matter how you look at it. We can whitewash ourselves and cover ourselves with a cloak of righteousness now....if we come up in the resurrection to judgment then there is no more cloak or cover, indeed we will be naked in every sense of the word. Makes me want to have my judgment now.
Posted on: Today at 01:35:19 PMPosted
Arion, This, is exactly how I feel. The way God has dealt with me has been one on one in my life. He knows, what it will take to bring us to our end. If, it takes just him or in public he knows what to do. One, I never wanted to hurt my parents. But, often not hurting my parents has hurt God who is my real Father. He has brought me to this knowledge in my life. He has never left me on my own. He shows me the filth within no one sees. It hurts for sure, but now I know it is for my own good . We might think no one knows, but being convicted by him sure does humble you. Our, earthly parents think they know us when in reality they don't know what is inside the heart. Yes to be sure like Kat and you have shown it will be in the same way for all , but few stripes and many for some. Our Father , knows its what is in the heart that needs changed. Personally, I prefer my correction now. I know, I can only prefer it this way cause he is doing it in me. Just, great to come in to a forum where we think alike. I never, had this in Babylon. Babylon, is a couple hours of show and well all go home. We, never know each other. Not, saying they did not have something going on inside of them. Just, saying I rarely saw it. Most, of the o nes in my church spent about 45 minutes once a week or twice with each other. Nothing, like a family. I can remember when they use to see someone leave Babylon church some of them would say they were not one of us apprently. But, they never thought Gods called out had gone because God drags them out.
In His Love,
Marlene
EKnight:
I could have sworn that I read somewhere where Ray differentiates between wrath/indignation and chastisement. Does anyone know where that is? ....Kat??
Eileen
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: EKnight on April 19, 2009, 08:30:25 AM ---I could have sworn that I read somewhere where Ray differentiates between wrath/indignation and chastisement. Does anyone know where that is? ....Kat??
Eileen
--- End quote ---
The 'Exposing Secret Rapture Theory' paper (http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm)
Excerpt:
At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:
1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.
AND
2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress
VERSUS
3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance
AND
4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.
Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.
It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.
The Scripture says,
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:
"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).
"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).
"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).
"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).
"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).
"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).
"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).
"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).
"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).
"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:10).
"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).
"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:16).
There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.
Marques
Deborah-Leigh:
Hi Marques
This is a very pertinent question you raise. It is vital I believe, that students of the Word of God, know how to perceive and comprehend with the due reverence and deep gratitude the fact that God has appointed some to judgment and others to wrath.
We have to evaluate the outcome for those who wave off God and persue their empty addictions to depravities with NO discernment OR regard for God.
Jesus Himself did not pray for the world and neither did He try to avert or go against the way and Plan of God who shall use wrath to the beneficial consequence on the wicked.
John 17 : 8 For I have given unto them the Words which Thou gavest Me: and they have RECEIVED THEM, and have known surely that I came out from Thee, and they have BELIEVED that Thou didst send Me; 9 I PRAY FOR THEM : I pray NOT FOR THE WORLD, but for THEM which thou hast given Me; for THEY are Thine.
We know that no one can approach the Son of God unless God drags us to Him. We know that no one can choose God or even succeed in being Godly as Godliness is Gods work not ours. We know that God is the potter and that some pots He makes to Wrath and others to Glory.
2 Peter 2 : 8 For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, VEXED his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds. 9 THE LORD KNOWETH HOW TO DELIVER THE GODLY OUT OF TEMPTATIONS, AND TO RESERVE THE unjust unto THE DAY of judgment.
Who are they who the Lord is reserving unto The Day of judgment?
10. But chiefly THEM THAT WALK AFTER THE FLESH in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, SELF-WILLED, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 12 But these, as natural brute beasts, MADE to be taken and destroyed ( MADE by God for His Plan and Purpose) speak evil of the things that they understand not, and shall utterly perish in their OWN CORRUPTION.
In sumnation it is valuable to consider the Godly attitude as taught by Ray that we should have as we encounter those to whom God has appointed His Wrath.
We know it is God who frames evil around us.
O man, that’s what we have to repent of.
Whatever O man is. That’s what we are, because O man is Adam. O man came out of Adam. Where did you come from, some place else? We’re all out of Adam. And what does Adam do? Being filled with all unrighteousness, sexual immorality, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness, full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, evil-mindedness, backbiters, haters of God, violent, proud, boasters and on and on. Wow, this is O man out of Adam. This is what he does. And only by the grace of God, some of us didn’t have to go that route.
.......So be thankful
.....thankful that God has not appointed us to His Wrath, or to perish in our own corruption. God. Our God. Our Sovereign All Mighty All Loving God. That God gave THEM over to a reprobate mind...Rom 1:28
Arc
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