> General Discussions
With Wrath & Indignation
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Akira329 on April 17, 2009, 06:36:42 PM ---
--- Quote from: mharrell08 on April 17, 2009, 08:45:17 AM ---As all the fires are the same, what makes the Lake of Fire in the next age more severe (wrath, indignation, perdition)?
--- End quote ---
Hey Marques,
These verses come to mind when considering your question:
Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
Joh 2:15 And when he had made a scourge of small cords, he drove them all out of the temple, and the sheep, and the oxen; and poured out the changers' money, and overthrew the tables;
His wrath is also compared to a winepress. Grapes are squeezed with great pressure, the juice is extracted but left is the pulp and seeds
The same with us!
Jesus done those things swiftly I can only say it will be the same in judgement.
Does this help?
Antaiwan
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Hey Antaiwan,
Yes, all the comments help but I'm wondering what makes the spiritual pressure in the judgment of the unjust more severe than the spiritual pressure on God's Elect now...more severe as far as wrath, indignation, perdition, etc.
Thanks,
Marques
Marlene:
Yes, I have always wondered that too Marques. Waiting to hear replies on this.
Marlene
Kat:
Hi Marques,
As I was thinking on this it occurred to me that now we "judge ourselves" and this seems to be a rather private and personal thing between us and the Lord, at this time.
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world.
In this world the Elect are bombarded on every side by corruption and evil. I think God holds the Elect in His hand and carefully gives us the chastening to develop the Elect into His ally. This is done lovingly (not with wrath) preparing/training them for the monumental task ahead. They will be working with Christ during His reign and they will be His "fellow workers." So this is not the same situation or outcome as for those coming up in the White Throne judgment.
1Co 3:7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase.
v. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.
v. 9 For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, you are God's building.
Now if we fast forward to the time of God's judgment/condemnation on the world. Christ is ruling and the world, which I believe will immediately become a very different place... no crime, corruption, violence, or evil of any kind can slip by Him and the Elect. Now, at this time, people have ways and places to hid to comment evil, but at that time there will be nothing hidden from Him, all will be revealed.
If you will think for just a minute about some of the evil that has taken place in this world. Then you can only imagine how His righteous indignation will burn against these people who have willingly volunteered (some even gladly I believe) to carried out atrocious acts against their fellow human being. This judgment will come upon people immediately and unrelenting, few or many stripes as needed though. He will expose the shameful thoughts and deeds of everyone and that will torment those prideful people to their very core.
Heb 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Isa 47:3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your shame shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no man.
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
v. 9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
v. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
v. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
mharrell08:
--- Quote from: Kat on April 18, 2009, 07:55:59 AM ---Heb 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
Isa 47:3 Your nakedness shall be uncovered, and your shame shall be seen. I will take vengeance, and I will spare no man.
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire, giving vengeance to those not knowing God, and to those not obeying the good news of our Lord Jesus Christ;
v. 9 who shall suffer justice--destruction age-during--from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,
John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
v. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
v. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God."
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thanks Kat...these 2 excerpts of scripture in particular help a great deal.
But one thing...how do you think one's embarrassing sins being brought to light correlates to God's wrath & indignation? The Lord's wrath is to spill everyone's hidden transgressions out in the open? I don't know if that is a spiritual match...though both do happen spiritually as the scripture state so.
I was talking to Antaiwan yesterday, and one incident from scripture that seems to shadow God's wrath is when the Israelites began to worship the molten calf when Moses took a while to come down from the mount:
Exodus 32:1 & 4 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we wot not what is become of him...And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf
Exodus 32:9-14 And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people: Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation. And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
And of course we know our God is a 'consuming fire' [Heb 12:29] that judges & purges us of our carnality so 'wax hot which consumes them' foreshadows that spiritual fact.
So that comes full circle to my initial question: as the fires that judge the Elect now and the wicked in the next age are the same spiritual fire, how is this same fire, in the next age, with wrath & indignation?
As we are no better than the most carnal of humanity, and God is using His spiritual fire to bring His Elect into spiritual perfection in this age, why is wrath & indignation needed to bring about spiritual perfection in the wicked in the next age? It wasn't needed with the Elect who, without the grace of God, would be just as carnal & wicked as anyone in the age to come.
What makes me ask this question is the attitude or perception of the church regarding the rest of humanity that does not follow their man-made doctrines. The church has an attitude of 'I'm saved, to hell with anyone else'...I could never tolerate this attitude (not of my own doing, the Lord would not allow me). So I don't care for it even now, having a knowledge of the truth...I don't like thinking 'Most of humanity is going to suffer God's wrath & indignation...oh well'.
I'm no better than the worst of the worst and I have not needed the wrath of God to bring me to repentance...so why does anyone else?
Thanks,
Marques
Kat:
Hi Marques,
It's hard to imagine how God will expose everybody's sins, we know that everybody will give an accounting. So people can hide behind their secrets now, but there won't be any of that when His judgments come. Now people can have secret lives, they can have the most vile thoughts towards others and it's not known. But in the LoF everything will be revealed and people that have built up many years of secret perversions will be exposed. Imagine having every secret thoughts brought to the attention of everybody around. Bad habits are hard to break and it would be tormenting to have every wrong thought immediately corrected.
--- Quote ---As we are no better than the most carnal of humanity, and God is using His spiritual fire to bring His Elect into spiritual perfection in this age,
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We are no better than anyone is true, but as we know God controls all circumstances, I think by and only by the grace of God the Elect are spared from being given "over to a reprobate mind."
Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
God is taking special care to give His Elect just the right degree of 'an experience in evil' for them to have an understand of it. But He is training them to serve Him, which really is different than what the rest of the world are experiencing. I think God has to deal with the Elect differently, because their outcome needs to be different.
--- Quote ---... why is wrath & indignation needed to bring about spiritual perfection in the wicked in the next age?
--- End quote ---
We can not know what percent of people are so reprobate that they require many stripes - wrath and indignation, it must be a lot. But we can rest assured that He will deal with each exactly according to what they need and some will require a very firm, even severe hand of correction to begin to straighten them out
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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