Dying spiritually?

[meee]

        Hey all,
        I'm trying to get a handle on what ray Means about having to die spiritually. Is the below what this is? Or am I way off?  Help,please!!!

From Ray:

There is the answer to how God's Elect must "once die" before their "Second death Judgment."

The carnal world dies when they breathe their last and go down into the grave. God's Elect die when they are "baptized into death.". After resurrection from the dead, the world will enter into Judgment. And what about us--God's Elect? When do we enter into Judgment? Same way, when we are resurrected from the dead through baptism.

"Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection" (Rom. 6:4).

But we are not literally resurrected to immortality as Jesus was, when we are raised from the dead after being baptized into JESUS, are we? No, not literally, that is why Paul says we are to, "reckon you also yourselves to be dead."

"Likewise r-e-c-k-o-n you also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11).

The Greek word for "reckon" means "to estimate, conclude, impute, reason, reckon, suppose, think." It is not necessary to "reckon" something that is literally a present reality. In the future we will literally be free from all sin and literally have immortality in resurrection, but for now we can just "reckon" it.

This death is not a literal, physical death, but it is a REAL death, and it is most important:

"Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him" (Rom. 6:.

Notice also that in addition to being baptized into Christ's death, we are also "buried." True, this is figurative language, but it is true language. We truly are not only crucified with Christ, and die with Christ, but we are also buried with Him. THIS IS THE FIRST DEATH OF THE ELECT BEFORE THEIR SECOND DEATH IN JUDGMENT BY FIRE.

How sad it is that billions of people are eager to be baptized in water, but do not know what it means to be "baptized into Jesus Christ." If people want to be baptized in water, fine, but if they are not at the same time "baptized into Jesus Christ," which means "baptized into death," then they only go down dry and come up wet--little else changes in their lives.

Remember that the Lake of fire IS death, but death only to those things which are to be no longer. Are there to be people after the Judgment? Yes. Well then people will not be literally killed or annihilated in this judgment by fire. How would God ever be "ALL in all" (I Cor. 15:28)?

[mharrell08]

       Hey all,
        I'm trying to get a handle on what ray Means about having to die spiritually. Is the below what this is? Or am I way off?  Help,please!!!

Yes, this touches on spiritual death and/or dying...as does the entire Lake of Fire series.

What it means to 'die to self' or 'die to the flesh' or 'spiritually dying' just means to die of our carnal, ungodly condition...to stop doing wrong by the grace of God. One way it so difficult is not only your outward actions but your inward thoughts as well. The church teaches to stop your outward actions of the flesh but not the inside.

Matt 23:25-26  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Luke 11:37-40  And as he [Jesus] spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?


Hope this helps,

Marques

[daywalker]

       Hey all,
        I'm trying to get a handle on what ray Means about having to die spiritually. Is the below what this is? Or am I way off?  Help,please!!!

Yes, this touches on spiritual death and/or dying...as does the entire Lake of Fire series.

What it means to 'die to self' or 'die to the flesh' or 'spiritually dying' just means to die of our carnal, ungodly condition...to stop doing wrong by the grace of God. One way it so difficult is not only your outward actions but your inward thoughts as well. The church teaches to stop your outward actions of the flesh but not the inside.

Matt 23:25-26  Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Luke 11:37-40  And as he [Jesus] spake, a certain Pharisee besought him to dine with him: and he went in, and sat down to meat. And when the Pharisee saw it, he marvelled that he had not first washed before dinner. And the Lord said unto him, Now do ye Pharisees make clean the outside of the cup and the platter; but your inward part is full of ravening and wickedness. Ye fools, did not he that made that which is without make that which is within also?


Hope this helps,

Marques

AMEN, MARQUES!

That's one of my personal fav quotes from Christ. It's meaning is so deep, one can look right over it as Him just being sarcastic. But it has so much Truth in it.

Matthew 15:18 Now those things going out of the mouth, out of the heart are coming, and those things are contaminating a man.
19 For out of the heart are coming wicked reasonings, murders, adulteries, prostitutions, thefts, false testimonies, calumnies.
20 These are those which are contaminating a man. Now to be eating with unwashed hands is not contaminating a man."

Even as I begin to understand this more and more, I continue to worry so much about all the "outside sins" that I do, and I let it discourage and frustrate me. But the more I notice my heart being reformed to the heart of God, the more I notice those outside sins dissolve.

If we focus on our outside sins, we'll battle and battle, but the war will rage on and on.. But if have a change of heart [through the power of God's Spirit...] then our outside sins begin to perish, because we find that we no longer want to do them, so the battle becomes easy!

Another fav verse of mine, from the Old Testament, related to this subject:

Isaiah 1:16 Wash yourselves! Purge yourselves! Take away the evil of your actions from in front of My eyes!
17 Leave off the evil! Learn to be good! Inquire for judgment! Make happy the wronged! Judge the orphan! Contend for the widow!

The Church is trying to "escape judgment". But, no, we should WANT Judgment. We should DESIRE Judgment. We should SEEK Judgment. It's THROUGH Judgment that we are washed, purged, purified of our Carnal Nature, and created into the "likeness of the Image of God" which is Jesus Christ.


May the God of Peace be with you,

Daywalker.

[Marlene]

Meee, Now, I believe what you gave is speaking of dying spiritually. Marques, gave you some good scriptures. We know that the elect will be judged during this age and the others in the white thone judgement.

What, I find the Lord doing with me is judgement. He shows me things in my heart that are not right. The heart can even deceive us. But, people for the most part do  not know what is in your heart. In my life so far, God has dealt with me one on one. I might think I can deceive someone by cleaning up the outside, but he knows the heart. He cleans up the inside. When , he shows us what we are and we begin to hate those things we are dying to them day by day. When, I was a babe he showed me a little at a time, so as not to choke me. He wants us to endure correction now. I find I have a battle within me. I want to do right, but sometimes the sin in me causes me to do what I hate. It is a process of overcoming. He knows, exactly how to correct us.

But, there are others either do not believe or do not ever understand .
They want to take the grace , but they do not want to let go of self. God is there to help us die to self. Or it is an unbeliever who just does not see or beleive .  Babylons churches teach half truths. We can never learn righteousness with out the whole truth. God will show us ourselves and aid us to overcome. Good post Daywalker!

1 Peter, Chapter 4  verse 12
Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you
1 Peter Chapter 4 verse 17 For the time is come that judgement must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God.
The Lord is judging his church now.
If, we see our sin and ask god to help us overcome it, that is dying to self. That, is the spiritual death that changes us. We take on Christ.
1 Peter verse 18 And, if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
There is a battle going on inside us to do right. We have to die to self. The outward things man can see, but the heart things man can hide, but not when the Lord is judging.  So, we either die to self now or in the white throne judgement.
Remember we are the beast and it has to die.
John Chapter 2 vers 15 Love, not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Verse 16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and lust of the eyes, and the pride of life is not of the Father, but is of the world.
Revelations Chapter 2 verse 11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches. He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

It will be the same for the others they will have to overcome in the lake of fire . I personally pray that I do not have to endure harder trials then I am facing in this life time.  But, they will be in safe hands. Not, in the hands of a maniac like Babylon teaches.

In His Love,
Marlene

[aqrinc]

Some Scriptures to remind us what it is dying to self means in this age for believers. Many profess their belief in GOD And Our Lord Jesus Christ. Since The Scriptures are written for believers to read and understand; these verses must be very much talking to us; not to the unbelieving or decieved. We; that have ears must listen to what The Spirit Says to the churches (us).

1Tim 4:1 (GNB)
The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons.

James 4: 4-6 (GNB)
4  Unfaithful people! Don't you know that to be the world's friend means to be God's enemy? If you want to be the world's friend, you make yourself God's enemy.
5  Don't think that there is no truth in the scripture that says, "The spirit that God placed in us is filled with fierce desires."
6  But the grace that God gives is even stronger. As the scripture says, "God resists the proud, but gives grace to the humble."

James 4:8 (GNB)
Come near to God, and he will come near to you. Wash your hands, you sinners! Purify your hearts, you hypocrites!

Rev 2:7 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches! "To those who win the victory I will give the right to eat the fruit of the tree of life that grows in the Garden of God.

Rev 2:11 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches! "Those who win the victory will not be hurt by the second death.

Rev 2:17 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches! "To those who win the victory I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give each of them a white stone on which is written a new name that no one knows except the one who receives it.

Rev 2:29 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!

Rev 3: 1-2 (GNB)
1  "To the angel of the church in Sardis write: "This is the message from the one who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars. I know what you are doing; I know that you have the reputation of being alive, even though you are dead!

2  So wake up, and strengthen what you still have before it dies completely. For I find that what you have done is not yet perfect in the sight of my God.


Rev 3:6 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!

Rev 3:13 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!

Rev 3:22 
"If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!"

george.

[meee]

       Yes!!! Thanks everyone.       That is what I was understanding.
       The thing that mixed me up was I had never heard of dying spiritually, except if one were to leave the Lord.  Then there was the teaching about being born spiritually dead, receiving the Lord and then becoming alive spiritually.
       Oh how the old junk confuses!
       Thank you for your help.
       luv & hugs,meee
       

[meee]

       about being born spiritually dead, receiving the Lord and then becoming alive spiritually.
      

                Soooo, where do they get the idea that we are born spiritually dead, called the walking dead. Has anyone else been confuesed by this?
                meee

[judith collier]

Meee, people do not pay as much attention to their words as they should, using most anything to convey their ideas on a subject. This is why I love Ray's teaching, he pays attention and doesn't throw his own words into the gospel. I would be afraid to be a teacher because of the verse, let it be anathema if anyone adds or subtracts words from the gospel.   I am even afraid I got this one not quite right.  judy

[meee]

Meee, people do not pay as much attention to their words as they should, using most anything to convey their ideas on a subject. This is why I love Ray's teaching, he pays attention and doesn't throw his own words into the gospel. I would be afraid to be a teacher because of the verse, let it be anathema if anyone adds or subtracts words from the gospel.   I am even afraid I got this one not quite right.  judy

Judy,
                Thanks, for your reply.
                    meee