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Author Topic: Endures to the end shall be saved  (Read 12009 times)

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CrossoverManiac

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Endures to the end shall be saved
« on: May 02, 2009, 03:11:26 PM »

Here's my question to you: if all shall be saved anyway, then how come the Scriptures speaks of enduring persecution and enduring it to be saved?
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musicman

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2009, 03:41:58 PM »

All are not saved anyway.  But all will be saved through Christ. 
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gmik

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2009, 04:29:09 PM »

Come on Musicman. ???  Give an answer to an honest question. 8)

Crossover, probably has to do w/ the audience-who it was referring to and who was reading/listening.  Or saved as in the chosen for reigning  not saved as in the end- all in all... Get a good translation of the words too.

I don't know how to find Ray's answer to put on here, but that would be the best place to look.  Be patient someone will do it I hope. :-[ 8)
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mharrell08

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2009, 06:48:01 PM »

Hello Crossover and welcome to the forum,

Musicman actually gave a simple but truthful answer...no scripture states that people will be saved 'anyway'.

Here is a good study if you are interested, 'How Hard is Getting Saved' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3849.0.html).


Marques
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Kat

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2009, 07:59:36 PM »


Hi CrossoverManiac,

Here is a part from the article 'You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!'

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm ----------------------

"Whosoever will come after Me, let him DENY himself, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME" (Mark 8:34).

This is not an "option" to salvation; this is an absolute REQUIREMENT. I am not trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but the reality of living as Jesus Christ demands is not a walk in the park or a stroll through a rose garden. You can pursue a life obsessed with beauty, fame, vanity, materialism, and worldliness, but don’t think you can also coordinate all that with a life of following Jesus Christ.

"For even hereunto were ye called; because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow [By suffering with Him—‘Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER persecution’ II Tim. 3:12] His steps" (I Pet. 2:21).

"He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He [Jesus] walked" (I John 2:6).

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I John 4:17).

If you do not "suffer persecution," then you clearly are not "living godly in Christ Jesus."

"To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES" (Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:26; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21).

"Overcomes" WHAT?

Overcomes the sins of the FLESH, the sins of the CHURCH, and the sins of the whole WORLD. We must overcome just "AS" Jesus overcame:

"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even AS I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).

Jesus Christ overcame His own FLESH (Heb. 4:15), and Jesus overcame the sins of the whole WORLD:

"These things I have spoke unto you, that in Me [Jesus] ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer: I have OVERCOME THE WORLD" (John 16:33).

We must all overcome as Jesus overcame, and we must all live as Jesus lived, and anything less is a shame and heresy.

And just how long must we be put up with all this persecution and trials of the cross? Again, let Jesus answer:

"And ye [Gk: ‘all of you’] shall be hated of all men for My Name’s sake [Does that include ALL Believers? ‘YEA, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus, SHALL suffer persecution’]: but he that endures [Gk: "remain, under go, bear trials, have fortitude, persevere, suffer’] TO THE END shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22).

Are we to foolishly conclude that "he that endures NOT to the end," and "he that does NOT overcome," and "he that does NOT suffer persecution," and "he that does NOT take up his cross," and "he that is NOT baptized into Christ’s death," and "he that does NOT live godly and righteously," shall ALSO be saved just as long as he speaks a twenty-second sinner’s prayer? Nonsense. There are HUNDREDS of Scriptures which tell us the many, many things that God will do in and through us before He actually "SAVES us."
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Terry

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #5 on: May 03, 2009, 04:04:41 PM »

As i was reading this thread and thinking of enduring to the end is really a hard thing for me, it seems everytime i take 3 steps forward something happens and i'll take 2 steps back, when i feel i'm getting stronger it seems the beast in me causes me to fall flat on my face, this enduring to the end is the hardest thing i have ever done, oh i get persecution from friends and family about my beliefs being different from theirs but that is nothing compared to the attack and persecution that comes from within, i want to live right but i fail miserably at times but i thank God for giving me the desire to get back up and keep on trying i know it is God who gives me the strenth to keep fighing, well anyway as i was reading this about enduring i felt lead to share this with you guys.

God Bless

Terry Miller
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Terry

judith collier

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #6 on: May 03, 2009, 06:13:50 PM »

Terry, drop the judgement on yourself. We all sin 7 or more times a day. We are sinners.  People on this site know more than me so I am hoping for their response. All I can tell you is I have been at this for 30 plus years and total honesty with yourself and agreement with God's word helps. God has do do the rest though. He is the one that saves by grace but there are things you can do to get grace and one is studying and another is spending time alone with Him and learning to hear that still small voice. And sometimes He speaks by silence. judy
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Marlene

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #7 on: May 03, 2009, 07:27:20 PM »

Terry, I am right in there with you and Judy. It is hard. Ray's paper on How Hard is it to get saved is a good paper to read. It helps me when I start to get an ego , when I think I do. When, we see ourself as filthy rags we are humble. But, at least you hate your sin. God, is showing us things in us that need to come out. Nope, it is not easy. But, with God it is possible.

I don't think anyone likes to meet this Beast Face to Face. It is God that keeps us in this battle to overcome. I just repent when he shows me something. Sometimes, we see things that our heart has deceived us about. Now, that is like a ton of bricks falling on my head. We are in the overcoming stage till we die.

I would put this paper of Ray's on here but I have to admit I am not good with computer things. I am better then I use to be , but still not there.

In His Love,
Marlene
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Patrick

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #8 on: May 03, 2009, 09:00:27 PM »

Terry, thanks for sharing.
I also feel the way you do and get discouraged at times. Nevertheless, as you say, "i thank God for giving me the desire to get back up and keep on trying i know it is God who gives me the strenth to keep fighing"; Glory to God!




http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
Judgement By Fire Must Begin At The House Of God

"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).

Grace means favor, a gift, to be cheerful, well, happy, graciously, freely, deliverance from danger, and a dozen other benevolent qualities of peace, joy, goodness, and salvation. It is one of those truly wonderful words of blessing. But just how does it operate in "the real world" as we say? A definition does not tell us everything about a word. We can, likewise, define "love" as, a deep, tender feeling of affection. But does that definition tell us how love actually functions?

We learned that "...when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord" (I Cor. 11:32).

Chastening defines how it is that God judges us. Now then, we are about to learn one of the most remarkable spiritual truths in the whole Bible:

"For the grace of God that brings salvation hath appeared to all men , teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world [eon or age]" (Titus 2:11-12).

Here then is the remarkable parallel between God’s judgment and His grace:

God "judges" us by "chastening" us! (I Cor. 11:32) "chasten," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811
God "graces" us by "teaching" us! (Titus 2:12) "teaching," Greek: ‘paideuo’ #3811

WOW! Do you even begin to understand what you have just read? Whether God "JUDGES" us (and later the wicked world), or "GRACES" us, He does it THE SAME WAY!!

"Judging" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811), and "gracing" is CHASTENING (Strong’s #3811). It is the SAME WORD!
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 09:04:08 PM by Patrick »
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Terry

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #9 on: May 03, 2009, 09:48:20 PM »

Thanks Judy,Marlene,Patrick for the words of encourgement i've read everything here at bible truths but since i've been sick my memory is all but gone i can't remember hardly anything after 5 minutes of reading something, i can remember things 40 yrs ago but not what i eat for supper last night, i can't remember what i just read but when i'm reading it God feeds my heart and that keeps me going,anyway thanks for the encourgement.
God Bless
Terry
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Terry

musicman

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2009, 10:11:38 PM »

Terry, drop the judgement on yourself. We all sin 7 or more times a day. We are sinners. 

For me it's like that old Army commercial.  You know, the one that says "in the army, we do more before breakfast than most people do all day. 

Well:

I sin more before breakfast than most people sin all day.  I'm trying to stop folks.  I have a problem.
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bunnylife

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2009, 11:04:02 PM »

How to wonderful it is to know that our Daddy God is working in us, through us by His grace and His judgment
teaching, chastening to transform -   (literally or figuratively “metamorphose”): - change, transfigure, transform.

2Co 3:18  But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed ( metamorphoō) into the same image from glory to glory, even a by the spirit of the Lord.

I was thinking of how a diamond is made. What tremendous pressure has to be applied to transform it from carbon to a rough diamond from that to the precious gem. So I looked up the process.

A diamond is the hardest substance known to man. And diamonds were formed by being "squeezed together".This happened, according to scientists, about 100,000,000 years ago.   At that time there  existed  beneath the ground  a mass of hot  liquid  rock. He earth was in early cooling and in the process the mass of liquid rock was subjected to extreme heat and pressure.  One of the results was that certain chemical combination was formed. And one of these was highly crystallized carbon—what we call a "diamond".

Two of the most interesting things about diamonds are their hardness and their brilliance. A-diamond is actually about five times as hard as corundum, the next hardest substance on earth.

And because a diamond is so hard, getting it ready for use in jewelery. is quite a complicated and skillful process. First, a diamond is cleaved, or divided. This requires a great deal of study to make sure it will split along certain natural lines. A narrow notch is then cut with another diamond having a sharp point; an iron or steel edge is laid on this line, and a sharp blow is struck. If all been done correctly, the diamond, (the hardest substance in the world, splits instantly in  two in exactly the direction desired!

Diamonds also have "facets", or little-laces, cut into them. This is done on a high-speed iron wheel on the edge of which is diamond dust • mixed in oil. The average brilliant diamond is cut with 58 facets! All this is done to make the diamond have the right shape and brilliance.

this is the very end - enduring (unique sons and daughters of God) How awesome are God's ways. I mean look at the process, (the pressure and heat), of nature making a diamond. That is just making the rough diamond. It still has to go the the jewelry (cutting, sharp tools, polishing) to be completed. That is fantastic. Do we really think that process to change us will be less than that? Are we not more precious than diamonds to our Father.

 Jas 1:2  My brethren, count it all joy [khar-ah'
cheerfulness, that is, calm delight: - gladness, X greatly, (X be exceeding) joy (-ful, -fully, -fulness, -ous).
when ye fall into divers temptations -eirasmos
pi-ras-mos'
a putting to proof (by experiment [of good], experience [of evil], solicitation, discipline or provocation); by implication adversity: - temptation

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judith collier

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2009, 12:07:46 AM »

Patrick, I have read Judgement starts at the House of God, but what is the difference between God's judgement and that done to ourselves by ourselves?  I only see devestation when we hold onto our guilt by judging ourselves. Isn't OK to see your fault and move on. I don't know how I got so confused here. Judy
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kenny

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #13 on: May 04, 2009, 09:42:27 PM »

Patrick, I have read Judgement starts at the House of God,but what is the difference between God's judgement and that done to ourselves by ourselves? I only see devestation when we hold onto our guilt by judging ourselves. Isn't OK to see your fault and move on. I don't know how I got so confused here. Judy

Judy,
I think that is why we all have a conscience,we can gauge ourselves through the use of the conscience in order to align ourselves Spiritually with the Fathers use of Judgement in the purification process which has to take place in order to be able to enter the Kingdom of God.
 We have to move on[to a higher Spiritual level] from our guilt by association [with sin], in order to understand what it is to be of a righteous character. When we judge ourselves that is the first step in the process of repentance of our daily struggle with sin.
  See it,understand it,and move on and away from it...  ;)



Peace...Mark
Judy
Mark really hit it here with our "conscience", it is something we have that no other creation of God' has and as we self examine ourselves and see our on short comings, Jesus said
Mat 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29  Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

and as we labour in understanding to learn of him, we come alive spiritually to a new level when we leave those burdens or sins, "in that rest". for some it is hard not to pick those labours back up when they leave that "rest".
You know the best part about the good old days are, "is the farther and farther we get away from those days the better off we become".
Don't get me wrong here I have not arrived but I have stepped out of the boat on to the "Rock" and everytime I sink all I have to do is cry out and he drags me back up and carries me.
thanks
kenny
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aqrinc

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #14 on: May 05, 2009, 01:08:35 AM »


Kenny,

Well written, that is the beginning of each ones understanding.

george. ;D

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Marlene

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #15 on: May 05, 2009, 02:00:56 AM »

Hello, So, what you are saying is that we repent and acknowledge them. But, we just let go and don't dwell on it.  We have to wait patiently on God to do the work.  Cause it is pretty obvious we are not sin free in this life. Sin, just does not rule our life. We can trust him to show us our sins and he leads us to repent. But, it is a process .

In His Love,
Marlene
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aqrinc

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #16 on: May 05, 2009, 04:31:07 AM »

Marlene,

Yes.

Two Beautiful passages of Scripture to support your understanding. (Bold and Brackets mine) definitions in brackets from KJV+ Strongs.

H3372
ירא
yârê'
yaw-ray'
A primitive root; to fear; morally to revere; causatively to frighten: - affright, be (make) afraid, dread (-ful), (put in) fear (-ful, -fully, -ing). (be had in) reverence (-end), X see, terrible (act, -ness, thing).


H3374
יראה
yir'âh
yir-aw'
Feminine of H3373; fear (also used as infinitive); morally reverence: -  X dreadful, X exceedingly, fear (-fulness).


Psa 111: 1-10 (CLV)
1 Praise Yah I shall acclaim Yahweh with my whole heart, In the council of the upright, in the congregation."
2 Great are the works of Yahweh, Sought after by all who delight in them."
3 Splendor and honor are His deeds, And His righteousness is standing into the future."
4 He has made His marvelous works memorable; Gracious and compassionate is Yahweh.
5 He gave viands (Food) to those fearing (Reverence or Revere)Him; He shall remember His covenant for the eon.
6 He has told of the vigor of His works to His people, That He would give to them the allotment of the nations."
7 The works of His hands are truth and right judgment; Faithful are all His precepts,
8 Supported into the future, for the eon, Worked out in truth and uprightness."
9 He sent a ransom for His people; He enjoined His covenant on them for the eon; Holy and fear inspiring is His Name.
10 The fear (Reverence or Honor) of Yahweh is the beginning of wisdom; All who practice it have a good insight. His praise is standing into the future.

1Jn 1: 8-10 (GNB)
8  If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and there is no truth in us.
9  But if we confess our sins to God, he will keep his promise and do what is right: he will forgive us our sins and purify us from all our wrongdoing.
10  If we say that we have not sinned, we make a liar out of God, and his word is not in us.

george. ;D

« Last Edit: May 05, 2009, 04:40:28 AM by aqr »
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Marlene

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2009, 04:17:04 PM »

I just wanted to add to this thought of rest. God has brought us out of Babylon and feeding us instead of getting our feeding from them.

NAJB  Ezekiel 34:15 " I will feed my flock and I will lead them to rest, declares the Almighty Lord.
        Psalms 81:16 "But I would feed you with the finest wheat and with honey from the Rock I would satisfy you.
        Ezekiel 34"15 " I will bring them out from the peoples and gather them from the countries and bring them to their own land, and I will feed them on the mountains of Israel by the stream and in all the inhabited places of the land.

We can rest on God. We are no longer lost in Babylon. We are feeding on the truths of God. So, we can rest from out own works. These scriptures give me hope because Babylon's focus is on the physical Our focus is on the Spiritual . God is Israel . So, we can rest on the work he did on the cross. He will continue to make our steps his steps. So, we can rest. He will bring a few into rest now. The many will not understand.

In His Love,
Marlene

     
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Phil3:10

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2009, 03:31:12 PM »

JACOBBSLADDR,
I enjoyed your post about sinning. I think that all flesh is nothing but a sinning machine. However, I am so thankful the LORD does have me where HE wants me and as you said for the knowledge that GOD gives me daily. I am also so very thankful that HE increases my knowledge as I seek to know HIM better.
In HIM,
Phil3:10
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CrossoverManiac

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Re: Endures to the end shall be saved
« Reply #19 on: June 24, 2009, 02:49:28 AM »


Hi CrossoverManiac,

Here is a part from the article 'You Fools! You Hypocrites! You Snakes!'

http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm ----------------------

"Whosoever will come after Me, let him DENY himself, and TAKE UP HIS CROSS, and FOLLOW ME" (Mark 8:34).

This is not an "option" to salvation; this is an absolute REQUIREMENT. I am not trying to paint a picture of doom and gloom, but the reality of living as Jesus Christ demands is not a walk in the park or a stroll through a rose garden. You can pursue a life obsessed with beauty, fame, vanity, materialism, and worldliness, but don’t think you can also coordinate all that with a life of following Jesus Christ.

"For even hereunto were ye called; because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that ye should follow [By suffering with Him—‘Yea, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER persecution’ II Tim. 3:12] His steps" (I Pet. 2:21).

"He that says he abides in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He [Jesus] walked" (I John 2:6).

"Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as He IS, SO ARE WE in the world" (I John 4:17).

If you do not "suffer persecution," then you clearly are not "living godly in Christ Jesus."

"To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES; To him that OVERCOMES" (Rev. 2:7; 2:11; 2:17; 2:26; 3:5; 3:12; 3:21).

"Overcomes" WHAT?

Overcomes the sins of the FLESH, the sins of the CHURCH, and the sins of the whole WORLD. We must overcome just "AS" Jesus overcame:

"To him that overcomes will I grant to sit with Me in My throne, even AS I also overcame, and am set down with My Father in His throne" (Rev. 3:21).

Jesus Christ overcame His own FLESH (Heb. 4:15), and Jesus overcame the sins of the whole WORLD:

"These things I have spoke unto you, that in Me [Jesus] ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer: I have OVERCOME THE WORLD" (John 16:33).

We must all overcome as Jesus overcame, and we must all live as Jesus lived, and anything less is a shame and heresy.

And just how long must we be put up with all this persecution and trials of the cross? Again, let Jesus answer:

"And ye [Gk: ‘all of you’] shall be hated of all men for My Name’s sake [Does that include ALL Believers? ‘YEA, and ALL that will live godly in Christ Jesus, SHALL suffer persecution’]: but he that endures [Gk: "remain, under go, bear trials, have fortitude, persevere, suffer’] TO THE END shall be saved" (Matt. 10:22).

Are we to foolishly conclude that "he that endures NOT to the end," and "he that does NOT overcome," and "he that does NOT suffer persecution," and "he that does NOT take up his cross," and "he that is NOT baptized into Christ’s death," and "he that does NOT live godly and righteously," shall ALSO be saved just as long as he speaks a twenty-second sinner’s prayer? Nonsense. There are HUNDREDS of Scriptures which tell us the many, many things that God will do in and through us before He actually "SAVES us."
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat



Sorry to take off like that, but that bit was rather intimidating.  I never took it that verse to mean 'you must suffer though martyrdom to receive salvation' as much as 'you much suffer through martyrdom *if* should that time comes'.  After reading the verse, it felt as though I would not be able to live up to such an expectation in order to receive salvation.  But I guess there was more to it than that.  Are you saying that salvation is a work in progress that must be taken over time?
« Last Edit: June 24, 2009, 02:52:17 AM by CrossoverManiac »
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