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Author Topic: God Judge Jesus?  (Read 3043 times)

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larissa4676

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God Judge Jesus?
« on: May 04, 2009, 05:02:46 AM »

Hello Everyone,

I have some questions and I'm not sure where I can find what I call "quick answers". You see, normally if I have a question I just find Ray's take on it, study what I find that Ray says, and so on. This is why I call it quick. He alreadys has the references laid out for us.

Anyway... A guy was trying to tell me the other day that God judged Jesus. Is this correct? I couldn't find any scriptures on that by typing the two words 'judge" (and it's variations) and Jesus. The point was he said that Jesus died because he was judged by God. However, I said that Jesus died because he who knew no sin became sin (2 Cor 5:21) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Another point was that this person believes in living this great life by design, having all you want, blah blah blah. I said no, you must die to have life. Is this incorrect? I really feel like we run away and are not willing to give the thing required most of us...our physical life.

I don't know, but I'm sure someone here does.

Thanks.

Larissa
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mharrell08

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2009, 07:42:18 AM »

Hello Everyone,

I have some questions and I'm not sure where I can find what I call "quick answers". You see, normally if I have a question I just find Ray's take on it, study what I find that Ray says, and so on. This is why I call it quick. He alreadys has the references laid out for us.

Anyway... A guy was trying to tell me the other day that God judged Jesus. Is this correct? I couldn't find any scriptures on that by typing the two words 'judge" (and it's variations) and Jesus. The point was he said that Jesus died because he was judged by God. However, I said that Jesus died because he who knew no sin became sin (2 Cor 5:21) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23). Another point was that this person believes in living this great life by design, having all you want, blah blah blah. I said no, you must die to have life. Is this incorrect? I really feel like we run away and are not willing to give the thing required most of us...our physical life.

I don't know, but I'm sure someone here does.

Thanks.

Larissa


Hello Larissa,

Christ did not become sin as He was sinless...but He was a sin offering for our sins.

FYI...excerpt from 'Was Christ made Sin?' (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6719.0.html):

Jesus Christ was not ‘the sin’ of the world offered on the cross, He died on the cross FOR our sins.  Can you not understand simple words?  An offering was a sacrifice back in Israel ‘for’ the sin.  That’s why it was not called sin, it was called a SIN OFFERING. 

Here is 2 Cor. 5:21 translated;

“For Him who knew no Sin, He made a Sin-offering on our behalf, that we might become God’s Righteousness in Him” (Emphatic Diaglott).

“For the One not knowing sin, He makes [Gk. Aorist - not past tense] to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God’s righteousness in Him” (Concordant N.T.).

This is the proper order too.  It should not be “for He made Him sin,” the first phrase is “For Him who knew no Sin.”


As far as God 'judging' Jesus, that's unscriptural and seems to be made up out of thin air:

John 5:22  For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son:

John 9:39  And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

John 5:30  I
[Jesus] can of mine own self do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.


Hope this helps and glad you're still here,

Marques
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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2009, 11:52:13 AM »


Hi Larissa,

Quote
you must die to have life. Is this incorrect? I really feel like we run away and are not willing to give the thing required most of us...our physical life.

I was looking at what you said here, since Marques took care of the rest of your questions.  To receive 'life' you do indeed have to die, this is what it means to be baptized into Christ Jesus, but this is a spiritual death to the carnal/flesh that is in us.

Rom 6:3  Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
v.4  Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Rom 8:10  And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

So until Chirst comes inside/indwelling you are carnally minded and spiritually dead.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
v. 7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
v. 8  So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

When the Spirit is indwelling this is 'life,' but only the earnest for now, until the first resurrection.
 
2Co 1:22  Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
 
v.9  But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:11  But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Hope this helps  :)

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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larissa4676

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: May 05, 2009, 03:50:06 AM »

What amazing, amazing truths. Thanks Marques and Kat.
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2009, 01:32:12 AM »


Hi Larissa,

Nice to see you peek out for a bit, winter is over you know.

That person and many or most others have this as their motto: Let us eat drink and be merry.

Here is the answer From Jesus Christ Himself.


Luk 12: 15-21 (GNB)
15  And he went on to say to them all, "Watch out and guard yourselves from every kind of greed; because your true life is not made up of the things you own, no matter how rich you may be."
16  Then Jesus told them this parable: "There was once a rich man who had land which bore good crops.
17  He began to think to himself, 'I don't have a place to keep all my crops. What can I do?
18  This is what I will do,' he told himself; 'I will tear down my barns and build bigger ones, where I will store the grain and all my other goods.
19  Then I will say to myself, Lucky man! You have all the good things you need for many years. Take life easy, eat, drink, and enjoy yourself !'
20  But God said to him, 'You fool! This very night you will have to give up your life; then who will get all these things you have kept for yourself ? ' "
21  And Jesus concluded, "This is how it is with those who pile up riches for themselves but are not rich in God's sight."

And this is our Hope In Jesus Christ:

1Co 15: 12-24 (CLV)
12 Now if Christ is being heralded that He has been roused from among the dead, how are some among you saying that there is no resurrection of the dead?
13 Now if there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been roused."
14 Now if Christ has not been roused, for naught, consequently, is our heralding, and for naught is your faith."
15 Now we are being found false witnesses also of God, seeing that we testify by God that He rouses Christ, Whom, consequently, He rouses not, if so be that the dead are not being roused."
16 For, if the dead are not being roused, neither has Christ been roused."
17 Now, if Christ has not been roused, vain is your faith - you are still in your sins!"
18 Consequently those also, who are put to repose in Christ, perished."
19 If we are having an expectation in Christ in this life only, more forlorn than all men are we."
20 (Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing."
21 For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead."
22 For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified."
23 Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence;"
24 thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power."


george. :)

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larissa4676

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 03:54:45 AM »

Oh my! I posted some of the truths I've learned about the trinity and tithing, eternal hell fire or lack thereof. It official...they think I'm nuts. Yippiieee! But on a more serious note. I'm having a hard time understanding the second death. I think I just need a refresher on this, 'cause its been awhile. Either way, I'll do some study tonight. I do have a question though. When you all pull up these links of Rays material...where are you getting if from? Can I see it as well? I'm sure I over look it if its here. Directions would be great. Thanks. And thanks for the responsed everyone.
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 04:39:26 AM »


Hi Larissa,

Here is the best forum places for information: http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html

This is the BT website for a whole lot more: http://bibletruths.com/

Hope those 2 get you started.

george :).

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Kat

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 10:58:32 AM »


Hi larissa,

For most of my searches I use Google Advanced Search, use Bible-truths.com for the domain.
http://www.google.com/advanced_search?hl=en
Or you can just type it in the Google search box [ "second death" site:Bible-truths.com ], use parentheses to find the exact phrase.
When I get to the article I use the page search [keys Ctrl + F] to find where it is mentioned in the article.

I also use the 'Categorized list of Ray's emails' to find a subject.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3108.0.html

 
Quote
I'm having a hard time understanding the second death. I think I just need a refresher on this, 'cause its been awhile.


Here is an excerpt from the article no. 16. E 'Hades and the Second Death.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D5.htm ------------------

The lake of fire/second death is how God deals with the sins of humanity. Jesus died for the sins of all humanity (I John 2:2). But what it seems the whole Christian world is failing to see, understand, and experience, is GETTING THE SIN OUT OF THE SINNER. How spiritually blind can we be. After Jesus has died for the sins of the world, the world continues to sin. Surely we can see from the Scriptures that God wants to get the sin out of His Elect.

If Jesus died to save sinners, is He going to save only some sinners? His chosen Elect only? By saving a few chosen elect sinners, does that make Jesus Christ, "The Saviour OF THE WORLD" (I John 4:14)? God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ commissioned Jesus "TO BE the Saviour of the world." Will Jesus be justified by His Father if He saves only a FEW?

"And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God: and the books were opened, and another book was opened which is the books of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their WORKS" (Rev. 20:12).

"And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death" (Rev. 20:13-14).

When the "dead... stand," we are being presented with a resurrection from the dead. For this is exactly what resurrection means (anastasis in Greek means, "to stand up again"--See Strong's #386 translated 'resurrection'). It is in resurrection that "the dead... stand" before God. And yes, since we know Revelation is a book of spiritual symbols, we would be correct in stating that it is "the SPIRITUALLY dead" who are standing before God. Aspects of this Judgment:

[1] "the dead, small and great stand [resurrected] before God"

[2] they are judged according to the books, according to their works

[3] "the sea [the sea of wicked humanity] give up its [spiritually] dead"

[4] this includes "every man" [Gk: 'each one or 'every one' or 'every person']

[5] "death [the cause] and hell [the realm] are cast into the lake of fire"

[6] and those "not found in the Book of Life were cast into the Lake of Fire"

[7] this "Lake of Fire is the Second Death"

The Christian orthodox teaching on the "Last Judgment" is a pagan fabrication which has been deceiving Christians by the billions for two thousands years. We will now look closer at just what this lake of fire/second death is all about.

As we have said many times, there is Judgment for both the chosen Elect now and the unbelieving wicked in the resurrection to Judgment:

"For if we would judge ourselves [now, in this life], we should not be judged [with the world later]. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [judged] with the world [at the resurrection to Judgment]" (I Cor. 11:31-32).

"For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?" (I Pet. 4:17-18).

Well we see where they appear in Paul's statement that they will be "...condemned [judged] with the world."

And this is at the Great White Throne Judgment in the resurrection to Judgment, in the lake of fire/second death.
----------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

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Beloved

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 01:05:56 PM »

In your topic you said the following

I have some questions and I'm not sure where I can find what I call "quick answers". You see, normally if I have a question I just find Ray's take on it, study what I find that Ray says, and so on. This is why I call it quick. He alreadys has the references laid out for us.

Anyway... A guy was trying to tell me the other day that God judged Jesus. Is this correct? I couldn't find any scriptures on that by typing the two words 'judge" (and it's variations) and Jesus. The point was he said that Jesus died because he was judged by God. However, I said that Jesus died because he who knew no sin became sin (2 Cor 5:21) and the wages of sin is death (Rom 6:23).

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
I am glad that others have supplied some informations for you but to me it sounds like you are looking to debate and win this argument. You need take this time and STUDY For YourSELF...

Point One
...when the guy made those statesment....MAKE HIM SHOW YOU THE SCRIPTURES to support what he said...a scripture that the Father judged the son

Point Two
Ray would tell you himslef that he would not help you answer these question so you can convince anyone....You need to convince yourself. If they are deaf to the word God has them there.

Point Three
It is by your life and your own inderstanding of God's Word that will enable you to be able to engage in these types of discussions.  This has nothing with you. God will bring those who have ears to you. Our job is to always be prepapred. It is only the mature that can navigate using the car.

Point Four

read this

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

listen to this

http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%2002-03-08.mp3

your question is answered in many ways , here is one topic

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,9365.0.html


We are all (including moi) quick to think we have the answer to these questions

Rom 11:33  O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

Instead we wait

(Eph 3:17)  That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
(Eph 3:18)  May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height[/b];
(Eph 3:19)  And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fullness of God.

beloved
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 01:30:39 PM by Beloved »
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2009, 02:22:49 PM »


Larissa,

Just a few minutes ago, i was made to explain why we have this hope. This is so important why we must be prepared at anytime to stand up and speak when told to do so By GOD. Almost everyone has known or heard these Scriptures from childhood; there is a reason for this that goes beyind knowledge.

These are bedrock Scriptures that even a very modestly learned person can learn and embrace. None can contradict these Scriptures with false everlasting punishment or other decietful practices without blatantly lying.


Num 23:19 (MKJV)
God is not a man that He should lie, neither the son of man that He should repent. Has He said, and shall He not do it? Or has He spoken, and shall He not make it good?

Num 23:20 (MKJV)
Behold, I have received word to bless. And He has blessed, and I cannot reverse it.


Joh 3:16 (CLV)
For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian."

Joh 3:16 
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son, that whosoever believes on him may not perish, but have life eternal. (eonian)


Joh 3:17 (ASV)
For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him.

Joh 3:17 (GNB)
For God did not send his Son into the world to be its judge, but to be its savior.

2Co 5:20 (CLV)
For Christ, then, are we ambassadors, as of God entreating through us. We are beseeching for Christ's sake, "Be conciliated to God!"
2Co 5:21
For the One not knowing sin, He makes to be a sin offering for our sakes that we may be becoming God's righteousness in Him."

2Co 5:20 (Living Oracles NT)
We, therefore, execute the office of ambassadors for Christ, as of God beseeching you by us; we pray you, in behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
2Co 5:21
For he has made him, who knew no sin, a sin-offering for us; that we might become the justified of God, by him.

george. ;D


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daywalker

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2009, 02:24:56 PM »

What amazing, amazing truths. Thanks Marques and Kat.

I second that. Great posts.

In order for someone to be "judged" there must be something that person did wrong, hence he/she needs "judgment" [i.e. Correction]. Since Christ "knew no sin", there's nothing in/about Him that needs "judging--correcting".

Judging Jesus would be like judging the Father Himself. You cannot "correct" PERFECTION.  ;D


- Daywalker.  8)
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larissa4676

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: May 08, 2009, 02:04:01 AM »

I really, really enjoy this learning. I'm sitting here with a friend studying and I have another question. It's off subject, but here it is. What do the scriptures below mean? (They are from the book of Jude).

6. And the angels who did not guard their head, except left their abode, He keeps under guard in the netherworld,* in the dark abyss until the great Day of Judgment.
7. Thus also Sodom and Gomorrah, and the towns around them, where they, in like manner, fornicated and went after other flesh, are consecrated under the same universal fire, as they deserve the Judgment.
8. Similarly also those who lust in their dreams for the defilement of the flesh, reject the Lordship and blaspheme the Glory.
9. Michael, then, the head of the angels, who as he spoke to the devil, argued on behalf of the body of Moses, that the devil dare not hold down his body under condemnation of blasphemy, except Michael told him, "The Lord shall rebuke you!"*
10. Those, then, that blaspheme against what they know not, who treat the natural phenomena like dumb creatures, are then destroyed by that [same fire.]
11. Woe to them that followed the path of Caine, and those that followed the deception of Balaam by accepting the recompense of the reluctant laborer, and those that went to oblivion by following the stubbornness of Korah.

As much as you can explain would be nice, but the meaning of 9 & 10 are what I'm trying to get clearer understanding on.
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aqrinc

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: May 08, 2009, 03:02:31 AM »


Hi Larissa,

What translation are you reading from, this one makes it very easy to read and understand.

Jud 1: 5-11 (GNB)
5  For even though you know all this, I want to remind you of how the Lord once rescued the people of Israel from Egypt, but afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6  Remember the angels who did not stay within the limits of their proper authority, but abandoned their own dwelling place: they are bound with eternal chains in the darkness below, where God is keeping them for that great Day on which they will be condemned. (Judged)
7  Remember Sodom and Gomorrah, and the nearby towns, whose people acted as those angels did and indulged in sexual immorality and perversion: they suffer the punishment of eternal fire as a plain warning to all.
8  In the same way also, these people have visions which make them sin against their own bodies; they despise God's authority and insult the glorious beings above.
9  Not even the chief angel Michael did this. In his quarrel with the Devil, when they argued about who would have the body of Moses, Michael did not dare condemn the Devil with insulting words, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10  But these people attack with insults anything they do not understand; and those things that they know by instinct, like wild animals, are the very things that destroy them.
11  How terrible for them! They have followed the way that Cain took. For the sake of money they have given themselves over to the error that Balaam committed. They have rebelled as Korah rebelled, and like him they are destroyed.

I added the CLV translation for the Angels being held in chains to show the

Jud 1: 5-6 (CLV)
5 Now I am intending to remind you, you who once are aware of all, that the Lord, when saving the people out of the land of Egypt, secondly destroys those who believe not."
6 Besides, messengers who keep not their own sovereignty, but leave their own habitation, He has kept in imperceptible bonds under gloom for the judging of the great day."

If you have E-sword loaded, look for Scriptural witnesses to any of the important points you need clarification with. otherwise just post another question and i am sure someone can help with it.

george. :)

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larissa4676

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: May 11, 2009, 07:27:48 PM »

~Beloved, in some ways you are correct. Daily (even minute by minute) I ask myself the Lord why me? There are things that I can plainly see in the Scriptures that others don't. I wonder why this is. Why I can see what others do not. I actually thought I wanted to go to school to pastor  last year about this time. The Lord said NO. I WILL TEACH YOU. But I thought to myself "I have the FREE schooling being offered to me. The Lord said NO. I WILL TEACH YOU. I surrendered to that July 24, 2008. Since then its been a battle between flesh and spirit. The point is my heart is broken for the thousands, millions, of folks around me that do not understand. I've asked the Lord repeatedly what I'm supposed to do with what He's teaching me. I still don't have an answer. One part of me wants to shout it from the roof tops, another says no one will believe, another says its pride so keep silent, another says continue to learn in silence and God will reveal the purpose in His time. I know as I type debating scripture is foolish, but in the moment sometimes I forget.

Thank you all for the information that you have supplied. I will study.

~George I was reading that scripture from an Aramaic text that particular day. I have esword. I'll checking when I'm home as I am actually visiting friends in another state and don't have my study tools available. Verse 9 and 10 are the ones that I really have questions about. Really you can include 8 as well. This is what I thought...

8. These foolish people have depraved minds and their own thoughts cause them to commit sexual sins against their own bodies. They insult God and glorious beings from heaven.
9. Even Michael (who is a chief glorious being (angel)) did not insult Satan by bringing bad accusations against him as he (Michael) had better understanding of the purpose which the one whom we know as Satan serves. Michael did not dare condemn the devil (like these foolish ones yelling "Satan your.... or I command you devil to... or devil you must come out cause I say so...etc). Michael instead used THE LORD's rebuke to "deal" with Satan.
10. But these foolish people attack what they don't understand. (As Cain did not understand why Abel's offering was accepted and his was not (which caused him to kill Able)).

These are just my thoughts. I have not confirmed the above, for the reasons stated above.

Thank you all again for your guidance.

~Kat and everyone else. I appreciate you taking the time to do what you do (did).

Thank you all.

Larissa
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Astrapho

  • Guest
Re: God Judge Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2009, 02:20:55 PM »

Oh my! I posted some of the truths I've learned about the trinity and tithing, eternal hell fire or lack thereof. It official...they think I'm nuts. Yippiieee! But on a more serious note. I'm having a hard time understanding the second death. I think I just need a refresher on this, 'cause its been awhile. Either way, I'll do some study tonight. I do have a question though. When you all pull up these links of Rays material...where are you getting if from? Can I see it as well? I'm sure I over look it if its here. Directions would be great. Thanks. And thanks for the responsed everyone.

LOL yes, yipiieeee!! ;D They think I'm nuts too, but that's it, that's all they have, that's all they can say: "You're nuts." Beyond that... ;D ;D ;D ;D

Quote
~Beloved, in some ways you are correct. Daily (even minute by minute) I ask myself the Lord why me? There are things that I can plainly see in the Scriptures that others don't. I wonder why this is. Why I can see what others do not. I actually thought I wanted to go to school to pastor  last year about this time. The Lord said NO. I WILL TEACH YOU. But I thought to myself "I have the FREE schooling being offered to me. The Lord said NO. I WILL TEACH YOU. I surrendered to that July 24, 2008. Since then its been a battle between flesh and spirit. The point is my heart is broken for the thousands, millions, of folks around me that do not understand. I've asked the Lord repeatedly what I'm supposed to do with what He's teaching me. I still don't have an answer. One part of me wants to shout it from the roof tops, another says no one will believe, another says its pride so keep silent, another says continue to learn in silence and God will reveal the purpose in His time. I know as I type debating scripture is foolish, but in the moment sometimes I forget.

Exactly how I'm feeling. Guess we'll just have to have faith in the Lord that... He knows what He's doing, lol ;D. Whatever the future holds, it's in God's complete control. :) But for now, yep, let's keep studying! :D

EDIT: Oh, I can't believe I forgot my intention for originally coming onto this topic to post... Thanks guys for the scriptures, I was pretty much wondering the same stuff. ;D
« Last Edit: May 13, 2009, 02:27:04 PM by Astrapho »
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