Philippians 2:12-13 - a simple question

[mhykx]

Therefore, my dear friends, as you have always obeyed—not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence—continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. - Philippians 2:12-13 NIV

Does it matter if these verses address only Christians?  Why?  Why not?


I ask this question because I remember when I was in Pentecostal (was very young then), our Youth leader was fond of saying that this verse and that is ONLY for chrstians, etc. etc.

Thanks for your time guyz!

-Mike

[Wallaby]

Hi

I think that the words were most probably at the time it happened, spoken to early Christians, but whatever is spoken about in the Bible and whatever is taught by Jesus Christ is certainly for believers as well as nonbelievers to hear. Funny to think of it, but all of the message of the Bible is for believers to further study and for nonbelievers to begin to understand the salvation offered.

Marius

[Astrapho]

Funny to think of it, but all of the message of the Bible is for believers to further study and for nonbelievers to begin to understand the salvation offered.

Marius

Well said, mate.

[Akira329]

Hi Mike
What makes you think this verse is just for Christians? Are Christians only the beloved of God? Will not all men be beloved of the Father?
Do non-Christians avoid this verse? Does the church not teach this scripture to non-believers? Do they just pick and chose what they show members?
Php 2:12  Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13  For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

2Ti 3:16  All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I think its better to say these scriptures are for those who understand.
Does this help Mike?
Antaiwan

[mhykx]

I can't remember other scriptures in the Bible which are quite often refuted by "christians" who teaches that those verses are addressed only to Christians and not to all.  This is the reason I asked the above question.

There is a certain denomination that teaches that Phil 2:12-13 are for christians only who are predestined by God to serve him thus, God works in them to will and to do according to His purpose.  But for others who are not, they just live their lives unguided by the Holy Spirit (which is to say that God does not work in them to will and to do according to His purpose).

[mhykx]

A follow-up question:

If a person did a terrible sinful act, who worked in him to will and do it?  Whose will is it to do wrong?

-Mike

[Marky Mark]

A follow-up question:

If a person did a terrible sinful act, who worked in him to will and do it?  Whose will is it to do wrong?

-Mike

Mike,email to Ray,Hope it helps.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6440.0.html


If it is God who controls our every thought and action, would'nt your teachings be in vain? If we cant make the decision to renew our minds, then why waste your energy and time trying to convince us of truth?  I agree with 99.9% of your teachings, but I'm struggling with this one.  God Bless Your Heart, Chad


Dear Chad: I get asked this question about every 72 hours, month after month.  You make all your own choices and you think all your own thoughts, and you have a "will" to do so. What you don't have, is a will that is FREE FROM CAUSALITY to do these things. People will say things like: "What ever MADE you think that; or what ever MADE you do such and such."  There is your answer. We know inherently that there are reasons CAUSES for your thoughts and choices. You can't make a choice that does not have a cause somewhere, and if something is caused to happen it could not have been otherwise. I teach the truths of God because this is just one way that God CAUSES people to see the truth (I Cor. 1:21).  The foolishness of teaching and preaching CAUSES people to see and understand and believe and act accordingly. It is not correct to state as you have that "God CONTROLS our every thought and action."  He does not need to "control" us, as He already knows far in advance exactly what we WILL DO AND THINK based on the conditions and circumstances of our individual lives.
God be with you,
Ray





Peace...Mark

[Kat]

Hi Mike,

God is soveriegn!  That means that His plan for humanity is being worked out down to the least detail according to His will.

Eph 1:11  In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will,

Now do understand a person desires to sin, because our heart is too weak to resist sin.  Even if we do resist a sin, that is God that causes that too.

Jer 17:9  "The heart is deceitful above all things,
      And desperately wicked;
      Who can know it?

Here is an excerpt from part C of 'The Myth of 'Free Will' Exposed.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html ---------------------------

GOD HAS PERFECTLY CHOREOGRAPHED HIS CREATION

All that has been, and is, and will be, has been planned and choreographed down to the movement of the last atom, by the Designer and Operator of the Universe, without Whom everything would fall apart in oblivion:  

"For by Him [Jesus] were ALL things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible [unseen powers], whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers; all things were created by Him, and for Him. And He is before all things and by Him all things consist ['has its cohesion,' ]" (Col. 1:16-17).

Since "by Jesus all things consist and have their cohesion," why is it that only man and his fabled "free-moral-agency-will" is the only truly "free radical" in the universe? Nonsense! Even "free radicals" operate under law—God operates all that exists, by law. Jesus did not create the universe and all that in it is, and then goes off on a trip to let the universe fend for itself. God presently is "working—operating" all that exists, and that includes the "will" of all mankind. Here's some more Scriptural proof:

"...God which works ['operates'] all in all " (I Cor. 12:6). God works all that there is in all that there are. Pretty neat, huh?  When we have a God this great, we can expect nothing but perfect assured success. The Christian teaching that God only can "desire" great things, but He cannot actually "accomplish" great things is absurd.
-------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat

[daywalker]

A follow-up question:

If a person did a terrible sinful act, who worked in him to will and do it?  Whose will is it to do wrong?

-Mike

Short answer: Satan.

[daywalker]

I am so very thankful that God never saw fit to make this truth hidden from me.  I've understood it completely from the day it was explained to me.  However, I never thought that mankind had a free will to begin with.  I just never thought about it ever. 

You know, as soon as I saw the definition of "free will" in one of Ray's writings, I ceased to believe it. I've known about "cause and effect" and how people can be manipulated, programmed by propaganda and media, and drugs, etc. But I thought free will just meant that we had the ability to change ourselves... control our own destiny... direct our own paths. Of course, that's all silly, and I know that now. But as soon as I saw what "free will" actually meant, and confirmed it with a few other dictionaries [just to be sure], I knew it didn't exist. It's so obvious!

...but in a similar way, I just never really thought about it enough before...


- Daywalker.

[mhykx]

You know, I must tell you (you're all my brothers and sisters, anyway), I sometimes hesitant to post a question here in forum because I hate to be thought as "stupid", or "this guy still can't get it and his on his way to his xxxxth post!" I sometimes wish that if only Ray was well, I could have directed the question to him but since he is not I don't because I hate to be a bother with my simple question. But I continue to post anyway because through asking questions I am able to unlodge my fear and confusion and little by little begin to see things more clearly from different answers given.

"...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. "

So many times until yesterday, I thought this verse implies that God is the one who wills. But just last night I noticed it doesn't say so. It is God WHO WORKS (causes circumstances to happen, etc.). And it is always the man WHO WILLs (but it isn't free since his will is just the effect of the cause).

Therefore to answer my own question, If a person did a terrible sinful act, who worked (not directly but ultimately caused) in him to will and do it?  GOD!  Whose will (desire, choice) is it to do wrong?  MAN!  Is this correct?

-Mike

[mharrell08]

You know, I must tell you (you're all my brothers and sisters, anyway), I sometimes hesitant to post a question here in forum because I hate to be thought as "stupid", or "this guy still can't get it and his on his way to his xxxxth post!"

To members:

I wanted to make a short thread about this attitude but this is well enough here...please do not hesitant to ask questions on the forum.

Asking questions was probably everyone's #1 reason to join the forum...whether it was to ask questions to further one's understanding of the scriptures and Ray teachings or to ask how others are dealing with living in the Truth, in their lives around family and friends who think you are deceived.

There is no such thing as a dumb or stupid question...though being somewhat familiar with Ray's teachings is somewhat expected.


Thanks,

Marques


P.S. Yes Mike, God is the cause of all and mankind chooses to sin. Our will to sin is a direct effect of the initial cause of God placing us in bondage to sin.

[mhykx]

P.S. Yes Mike, God is the cause of all and mankind chooses to sin. Our will to sin is a direct effect of the initial cause of God placing us in bondage to sin.

Thanks Marques and to others as well for your/their inputs!
I thank God the most for working my mind to understand His precious words.

-Mike

[lilitalienboi16]

You know, I must tell you (you're all my brothers and sisters, anyway), I sometimes hesitant to post a question here in forum because I hate to be thought as "stupid", or "this guy still can't get it and his on his way to his xxxxth post!" I sometimes wish that if only Ray was well, I could have directed the question to him but since he is not I don't because I hate to be a bother with my simple question. But I continue to post anyway because through asking questions I am able to unlodge my fear and confusion and little by little begin to see things more clearly from different answers given.

"...for it is God who works in you to will and to act according to his good purpose. "

So many times until yesterday, I thought this verse implies that God is the one who wills. But just last night I noticed it doesn't say so. It is God WHO WORKS (causes circumstances to happen, etc.). And it is always the man WHO WILLs (but it isn't free since his will is just the effect of the cause).

Therefore to answer my own question, If a person did a terrible sinful act, who worked (not directly but ultimately caused) in him to will and do it?  GOD!  Whose will (desire, choice) is it to do wrong?  MAN!  Is this correct?

-Mike

I just always try and remmeber that there is a difference between God's stated plan and His will.

Much like the story of Pharoe.

God's will was for pharoe to let His people go, but God's plan was to harden pharoe's heart so that puny pharoe would stand up and defy Him.

Almost seems contradictive but this was God's most perfect plan to achieve His will.

When it comes to doing evil, we are all brought through causes and circumstances beyond our controle [This is the God operating all] into a position of making a choice. Since our hearts are so weak and we have no spiritual strength of our own, it takes but God to remove His hand from us for us to falter. And with satan wondering around waiting to devour us, it becomes all to easy for us to sin.

I love the analogy of Humans being like the earth.

Think about the earth for a moment. The earth itself is dark and void of light on it's own. Yet the earth has light because of the sun. Not because it has it on its own but because it has the sun!

Well what happens when you remove the sun? The earth gets very dark!

Now we are the earth [or dust of the earth ] take away the sun [God] and we become very very dark! We never had any light on our own to begin with but it was because of God that we were lit and shown!

Hence since God know's all things, He knows that the circumstances He puts us in will cause us to make evil choices, He takes responsibility! Through the death of Jesus Christ. Don't forget though that when all this comes to fruition [SP?] God will take all the glory. And since IT WAS WE who made those evil decisions, because we were brought to a place in time where in our very hearts at THAT MOMENT we wanted to make the decision, WE will be held accountable!

Remember, YOu are still makign that decision, though you were brought to it through forces unseen, you still at that moment you made the decision, want tto make it in your heart and therefor are accountable!

I hope that made some sence :<

God bless,

Alex

[aqrinc]

I would like to make one comment about asking questions. There is a stupid question,? it is the one you never ask, so if it is an unasked question,?? it will never get an answer.

george.

[mhykx]

I would like to make one comment about asking questions. There is a stupid question,? it is the one you never ask, so if it is an unasked question,?? it will never get an answer.

george.

If that is the case, I will be very very careful to ask question next time....