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[Alan]

Alan, It is simply not enough walking and talking above everyone else; remember how Christ chastised the pharisees for their disdain of all not of their order. Not for a moment should we think that we cannot fall into the same trap. Unfortunately, neither you, I or any one else in this world is free from the influence of Satan.

I am doing no such thing......but I stand in truth!
THE DOCTRINE OF CHRIST!
I'm not trying to debate you, but show you why I think your not clear on the subject.

Jesus himself was meek and never walked with airs.

Mat 11:29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

But as we both know, as you stated above, that Christ did chastise the Pharisees in Matthew 23 for there heresy. I'm not chastising you, but speaking truth in love.

So Alan you say that our world leaders (read President Bush) " serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden."

Really!! So may I ask you how YOU can read a man's or woman's heart in order to discern what is inside. I thought that was only something that God can do. Are you certain of that, I mean willing to argue with Christ that "He" was mistaken, that our authorities did not have God in their hearts. Really, you know this? I think not. We, each one of us is the living proof of the will of God.

It's called testing the spirits Yellowstone.

1Jo 4:4  Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
1Jo 4:5  They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

This is the litmus test!
 
1Jo 4:6  We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
1Jo 4:7  Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8  He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Are these leaders loving their enemies, or is it a tooth for a tooth and an eye for an eye?

Yes, they are in God's will, just as everyone is that is alive on this planet.
Are they part of God's elect? Are any of us? We will know if we come up in the first resurrection.

I say that they are not because they don't follow Christ's commandments.

Luk 6:46  And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Mat 5:44  But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

But your above quote is double-side, which is something God's Word is never.  You state that our authorities are put in place by God but serve their father, the devil, just as much as Osama Bin Laden, really!!!  And you know this?

This is not double sided!

You cannot serve two masters.......It's one or the other!

Mat 6:24  No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

God puts everyone in their place, whether you serve Him or not.

He's either totally sovereign, or He's not.

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Does either man abide in the doctrine of Christ? Do they love their enemies?

You state that: "Our war is spiritual, and not physical like the people of this world."

Not true my friend.

Alan, please consider the words of John:

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?

Now the words of Jesus:

Alan, how will you answer Jesus when he say's to you:

Mat 25:45 ......Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.

What you are refering to is everything in the physical realm.
What do we do in this realm?
We love everyone, including our enemies!

This is what we, as followers of Christ and His Doctrine fight against....

Eph 6:11  Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
Eph 6:12  For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Eph 6:13  Wherefore take unto you the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

This is spiritual, not physical.

Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives.

I totally disagree! These are all spiritual words!

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

These are the words that we live our daily lives by spiritually. How we live spiritually comes out of us physically, like loving your neighbor as yourself.

Remember what Jesus taught:

Luk 10:30 And Jesus answering said, A certain [man] went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded [him], and departed, leaving [him] half dead.  

Luk 10:31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.  

Luk 10:32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked [on him], and passed by on the other side.  

Luk 10:33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion [on him],  

Luk 10:34 And went to [him], and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.  

Luk 10:35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave [them] to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.  

Luk 10:36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?  

Luk 10:37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.  

So if anyone of us, distances from ourselves from those in need, (just as the Priest and the Levite) is distancing ourselves from God, for what ever we do (or not) for the lowest of these, we do likewise to Christ. Are we so prideful of our relationship with God that we ignore such as these.

Distancing ourselves from those in need are not obeying Christ's commandments.

Joh 13:34  A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.

This is a spiritual commandment, as they all are.

Gosh I hope not; Alan, we are mandated to act, to help; and like it or not, our authorities are in place by the will of God and not Satan.

Like it or not, God created and ordained Satan to be the adversary. I'm not suppose to follow him and I won't follow and submit to any authority if it goes against Christ's law.

(Example: If my country told me I had to take up arms and fight for freedom, then I would say "NO THANKS")

It's just like Peter said in Acts to the governing authorities......

Act 5:27  And when they had brought them, they set them before the council: and the high priest asked them,
Act 5:28  Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29  Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.

With Love,

Yellowstone

We are under subjection as long as it does not go against the Royal Law of Christ!

With love in Christ!

Alan

[worm]

Its a modern Christian crusade against innocent people who have never threatened us.

Christianity is no less evil than their warped islamic views.  You cant tell me that Bush or Blair dont beleive in an eternal fire either.  Pots and kettles.  

Leave one another alone

Refreshing view Zander...coming from a "westener"

tell me...if we tally up the kills by Zarqawi vs Bush and Blair...who'd have the most?
and let's not forget...the whole war in Iraq is based on a LIE...there are and never were Weapons of Mass Destruction...the only WMD is the western alliance...or don't you watch the news?
EVERYDAY an average of 20 people are dying...this is the "democracy" that the west is bringing

I believe that this war is the start of the war to end all false religions...Islam, Judaism and Christianity...the three frogs of Revelation maybe?

Judgement is being brought upon all who are involved in this war...and all empires will fall...the Rock will grind all to dust...

Repent for the time of reckoning is at hand...and don't offer your sons and daughters to the god of the lie..."come out of her my people" :wink:

[Falconn003]

And God call those churches who sleep with politics WHORES !!!


Food for thought



Rodger

[Becky]

yellowstone:  I read over what you wrote last night and the rest of this thread this morning....


Here is what I see between the two sides of this arguement.

Both aguements here are valid but ther are unsound with relation to each others way of interpreting.

Here are some facts:

1.  God's word does not contradict
2.  The sum of God's word is truth
(we all see this, I'm sure)

Now, if this is so, why can we not find agreement on this topic...
your words answer my question:

you said "Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives. "

Unfortunaltely, the way you are interpreting the scripture as physical, makes my arguement unsound and the way I am interpreting the scripture (spiritually) makes your arguements unsound.  

We: (each side of this arguement) are not arguing on the same level, therefore, I cannot spend anymore time "arguing" on this topic.  It is a mute point.  I will not offer a rebuttle to your point because it is unsound with the terms I am descerning the word.

Thanks though for inspiring me to dig further for the truth!

[YellowStone]

yellowstone:  I read over what you wrote last night and the rest of this thread this morning....


Here is what I see between the two sides of this arguement.

Both aguements here are valid but ther are unsound with relation to each others way of interpreting.

Here are some facts:

1.  God's word does not contradict
2.  The sum of God's word is truth
(we all see this, I'm sure)

Now, if this is so, why can we not find agreement on this topic...
your words answer my question:

you said "Do you not see the physical connection here. These are not spiritual words, but words by which we are commanded to lead our daily lives. "

Unfortunaltely, the way you are interpreting the scripture as physical, makes my arguement unsound and the way I am interpreting the scripture (spiritually) makes your arguements unsound.  

We: (each side of this arguement) are not arguing on the same level, therefore, I cannot spend anymore time "arguing" on this topic.  It is a mute point.  I will not offer a rebuttle to your point because it is unsound with the terms I am descerning the word.

Thanks though for inspiring me to dig further for the truth!

Becky, my dear Sister,

I am saddened by your response. It sounds as if you are seperating us by our level of understanding. This is truly sad.

Becky, You are mistaken. I am NOT interpreting the scripture physically, rather I am simply applying it (physically) as we are mandated to do.

1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him?

May God Bless you.

Yellowstone

[gmik]

Thanks Sorin.

Zander,  Jesus Christ and Paul never taught or believed that we should do the crusades or kill people for God or even shoot your gospel-gun at anyone.  There is no way you can compare Islam (Mohammed) to Jesus. Maybe with medieval Catholic Churchianity but not with true Christianity.

I think we were to liberate a people from tyranny.  Has it been so long that you have forgotten the Blitz.  Had it not been for the yanks you all would be speaking German.  Did you love Hitler???  How do we actually show how we LOVE our enemies??  There is really no way to show that. We just say it in our minds or tell someone or write on a forum, OH, I love my enemies. What does that mean??  How did Jesus show love to the pharasees, and Agrippa, and chief priests??

I think a better application of showing love to enemies is in our own neighborhood or with our own families. With people the Lord puts in our path. How about showing love on this forum to people with whom you disagree.  How about Ray & Mike showing love to one another.  How come Ray thinks it is ok to be rude to people?

Yes. Love is the better way.  Our fruit will show.  But I don't think it is applicable in goverments and kingdoms.  I will try to show love to Osama if he shows up on my doorstep ready to saw my head off, and ask the Lord to forgive him.  but from afar, I will be praying for our soldiers and that they find him.  I will also try and forgive and love anyone that barges into my home to harm me, but I will also be protecting myself.

ARRRGGGG!  Hope I got that all out of my system.

 :roll: Love you guys!!

[zander]

HI mate

Sure, Christ never taught people to crusade against one another.  But thats what has happened.  I'm not comparing Islam to Jesus.  I am comparing religion to religion.  religion is a man made nightmare.  Doctrine after doctrine of falseness.  Pastors calling for the bombing of Iran, Osama calling for suicide bombers.  Thats religion.  Theyre false.  Neither has anyting to do with love.

Hitler and Iraq are miles apart.  Hitler had an army of people that everyone KNEW wanted to take over Europe (for the record thats exectly what is happening now anyway, with the EU, we are now part of the beaurcracy that Hitler wanted anyway).

Iraq had NO WMD and US and UK wanted "regime change" which is illegal.  You cant just throw someone out of their country when they are of no threat.  Hitler was a REAL threat.

[SandyFla]

John 18:36 says:
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Jesus never said war is wrong. In fact, the Old Testament is filled with God commanding people to kill:

* And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them (Deuteronomy 7:2).

* But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people (Deuteronomy 13:9).

* But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee (Deuteronomy 20:17).

* The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them (Deut. 33:27).

* Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you (Joshua 7:12).

* For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai (Joshua 8:26).

* And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing (Joshua 9:24).

* And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe (Joshua 11:14).

* For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses (Joshua 11:20).

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Shortly before Jesus was crucified, He gave His disciples this admonition:

"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one"' (Luke 22:36).

The only use for a sword is to kill. Why would Jesus tell them to buy a sword if He didn't intend for them to use it?

Conclusion: It's fine to turn the other cheek, but there are times when military might and self-defense require us to kill another person. The command "Thou shalt not kill" is not an end-all; otherwise, God contradicted Himself many times when He told His people to kill and destroy their enemies.

Sandy

[zander]

The sword can also be used as a symbol for impact, like God's word. Also, many OT rules are no longer valid.  Tithing for example, growing beards, etc.

[mannonthecross]

Hitler and Iraq are miles apart.  Hitler had an army of people that everyone KNEW wanted to take over Europe (for the record thats exectly what is happening now anyway, with the EU, we are now part of the beaurcracy that Hitler wanted anyway).

History, such as World War II, teaches repeatedly that the longer we waited to deal with rogue and ambitious dictators the more costly it would have been (Although now costly is an understatement). Hitler could have been stopped a number of times at a probable cost of just a few thousand lives (which I do not say lightly) instead of the tens of millions it ultimately cost to stop him.

Iraq had NO WMD and US and UK wanted "regime change" which is illegal.  You cant just throw someone out of their country when they are of no threat.  Hitler was a REAL threat.

Zander, my brother, with all due respect, do you REALLY BELIEVE there were no WMDS?  :shock: Why? Because the newspapers & the news media say so? Do you really believe that Saddam did not move them out of the country to say....oh, I don't know....Syria?! The advanced  advertising of the "Shock & Awe" campaign didn't give them too much time to move things around-I speak as a fool!
With weapons of mass destruction and modern technology, Saddam could have done in minutes what it took Hitler years to do.

Do you really believe that Saddam was no threat? Are you serious?  :?
Iraq is harboring terrorists, terrorist training bases, and is in league with Al Queda and other terrorist organizations that are enemies of the United States, making the Saddam regime (and those who still support him) a threat to possibly even more devastating attacks on the United States.

Did you not read my post on what is happening over here at the Canadian border?

How do you suppose Hitler got as far as he did? Because no one stopped him at the get go! Hindsight is always 20-20.

Anyway Zander, Peace & Blessings  

[Sorin]

The sword can also be used as a symbol for impact, like God's word. Also, many OT rules are no longer valid.  Tithing for example, growing beards, etc.

Growing beards, that's one of the most ridiculous from the OT. :lol:

[YellowStone]

HI mate

Sure, Christ never taught people to crusade against one another.  But thats what has happened.  I'm not comparing Islam to Jesus.  I am comparing religion to religion.  religion is a man made nightmare.  Doctrine after doctrine of falseness.  Pastors calling for the bombing of Iran, Osama calling for suicide bombers.  Thats religion.  Theyre false.  Neither has anyting to do with love.

Hitler and Iraq are miles apart.  Hitler had an army of people that everyone KNEW wanted to take over Europe (for the record thats exectly what is happening now anyway, with the EU, we are now part of the beaurcracy that Hitler wanted anyway).

Iraq had NO WMD and US and UK wanted "regime change" which is illegal.  You cant just throw someone out of their country when they are of no threat.  Hitler was a REAL threat.

Zander, why the continued anger against what God and Father of Jesus Christ has willed to happen.

All of this is for us to learn from and apply in our daily lives. No one here on earth is perfect. We are all learning, some faster than others; however, this is God's will and no other.

When you compare Islam against Christianity you are in reality comparing God against God. This you cannot do my friend.

With Love,

YellowStone

[mannonthecross]

John 18:36 says:
Jesus said, "My kingdom is not of this world. If it were, my servants would fight to prevent my arrest by the Jews. But now my kingdom is from another place."

Jesus never said war is wrong. In fact, the Old Testament is filled with God commanding people to kill:

* And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them (Deuteronomy 7:2).

* But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people (Deuteronomy 13:9).

* But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee (Deuteronomy 20:17).

* The eternal God is thy refuge, and underneath are the everlasting arms: and he shall thrust out the enemy from before thee; and shall say, Destroy them (Deut. 33:27).

* Therefore the children of Israel could not stand before their enemies, but turned their backs before their enemies, because they were accursed: neither will I be with you any more, except ye destroy the accursed from among you (Joshua 7:12).

* For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai (Joshua 8:26).

* And they answered Joshua, and said, Because it was certainly told thy servants, how that the LORD thy God commanded his servant Moses to give you all the land, and to destroy all the inhabitants of the land from before you, therefore we were sore afraid of our lives because of you, and have done this thing (Joshua 9:24).

* And all the spoil of these cities, and the cattle, the children of Israel took for a prey unto themselves; but every man they smote with the edge of the sword, until they had destroyed them, neither left they any to breathe (Joshua 11:14).

* For it was of the LORD to harden their hearts, that they should come against Israel in battle, that he might destroy them utterly, and that they might have no favour, but that he might destroy them, as the LORD commanded Moses (Joshua 11:20).

I could go on, but you get the picture.

Shortly before Jesus was crucified, He gave His disciples this admonition:

"But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one"' (Luke 22:36).

The only use for a sword is to kill. Why would Jesus tell them to buy a sword if He didn't intend for them to use it?

Conclusion: It's fine to turn the other cheek, but there are times when military might and self-defense require us to kill another person. The command "Thou shalt not kill" is not an end-all; otherwise, God contradicted Himself many times when He told His people to kill and destroy their enemies.

Sandy

Sandy,

Most Excellent!

[SandyFla]

The sword can also be used as a symbol for impact, like God's word. Also, many OT rules are no longer valid.  Tithing for example, growing beards, etc.

Do you think Jesus was referring to a symbolic sword in that passage? I don't. I think He was telling His disciples to prepare to defend themselves, if need be, just like He said if His kingdom were of this world, then His disciples would have fought.

Those OT verses I quoted of God telling His people to kill and destroy had nothing to do with OT rules such as tithing and growing beards. He told them--in no uncertain terms at specific locations and points in time--to kill specific groups of people.

Hebrews 13:8 says Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever.  Jesus is God. If Jesus never changes, neither does God.

[Andy_MI]

WWJB
(Who Would Jesus Bomb?)

[Alan]

Hello everyone.....

Instead of making replies to every post, I will just make one more to make this clear........(as in a 2nd admonition)

Tit 3:10  A man that is a heretic after the first and second admonition reject;
Tit 3:11  Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself.

Loving your enemies is cut and dry, as are all of Christ's commandments.

There is no room for negotiation on these words of Christ!

These words mean nothing to the many called and all the unbelievers in this world. The reason being is because they are spiritual words.

1Co 2:14  But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1Co 2:15  But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

These people of the world hate God and His word.

Rom 8:7  Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

God works all things according to the counsel of His will, which means His will is done in every persons life, whether they are His Elect, many called or still in unbelief.

Rom 9:18  Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Mat 13:15  For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

God ordains these leaders to do His will, but that does not mean that He lives inside of them.

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

Our cares are not of this world, but of spiritual things!

Mat 15:14  Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind. And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Mat 8:22  But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.

These leaders in authority, being either of the church or state, are the Pharisees of today. Christ submitted to these authorities, only when it didn't conflict with His law........as in the Sabbath......etc...

It is the same for us today.

We, as in the true followers of Christ and His doctrine have a higher standard of law that we are to obey without exception. We should never give in to the killing of anyone, be it in war....death penalty....etc.

Loving our enemies means LOVING OUR ENEMIES........NO EXCEPTION.

For everyone quoting the old law and using it as support for the killing of human life..........

We are not under the law of Moses anymore and the things that happen back then were the law.

We are under new law.....the LAW OF CHRIST and all of those that lived before Christ did not receive the promises of grace.

Heb 11:13  These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

There will always be wars and killing in this age, but for the true followers of Christ, we are not to approve or contribute to these things.

Christ's law is not for the many called and unbelievers. To be an overcomer, we must adhere to the spiritual law.

Someone brought up this scripture......

Luk 22:36  Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
Luk 22:37  For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.
Luk 22:38  And they said, Lord, behold, here are two swords. And he said unto them, It is enough.

These words are spiritual, not physical.

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Mar 4:13  And he said unto them, Know ye not this parable? and how then will ye know all parables?

Everything Christ taught was spiritual, and this is no exception.

Here is another translation from the GNB
Luk 22:38  The disciples said, "Look! Here are two swords, Lord!" "That is enough!" he replied.

I believe Jesus reprimanded them as saying ENOUGH OF THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
They couldn't see what Christ was saying anymore than that of the parables. Just like when Christ told Peter.....get thee behind me Satan.
Mat 16:23.

But, even if we look at this in the literal (physical sense), why would Jesus say "It is enough" when there were more than two disciples there and they only had two swords? Jesus said this at the Last Supper when all were present!

This sword is a spiritual one. Notice the reference to the buying and selling here. Sell your cloak.......buy a sword. The sword is THE TRUTH, and the disciples knew what Christ meant when He opened up to them..the scriptures.

Read this e-mail that Mike wrote on the subject!

http://www.*not-allowed*.com/takingarms.php


........................................................................................................

Yellowstone,

I'm not here to pick on you, but I have to address the scripture you keep refering to......

Lets look at scripture surrounding this verse you keep bringing up.

1Jo 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17  But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

What John is saying here is what Christ told us!

We are to LOVE everyone, including helping our fellow man by having compassion for them, even though God has blinded their hearts.

We know that we have passed from death unto life when we can love our brother (neighbor) as we love ourselves.

The laying down our lives for our brother is not a reason to go against the Law of Christ, but it is our duty to stand for the TRUTH. That's what we give our lives for.............just as it is with the shadow and type of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego in Daniel.

This is the spiritual warfare I am talking about. Not some physical war.

All of these political people running this country are already dead, but God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like our military.

My only concern in this age is to love my brother, and that means everyone in this entire world, but I don't let them into my spiritual house and entertain their heresy.

So I post these scriptures again to all who support retaliation of terrorism and war!

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Love your enemies and obey the doctrine of Christ!

In Christ,

Alan

[hillsbororiver]

Al-Zarqawi did his part in fulfilling scripture, with a slightly different twist;

Mat 26:52  Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

He lived by the bomb and died by the bomb.

I am very hesitant to believe or root for the liberal or conservative worldly causes, it is written;

Joh 8:23  And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.


Joh 18:36  Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

We are His servants are we not? So let's not worry about who or what worldly, beastly government is "right," they are all wrong, none of them are here for more than a short time, remember;

Mat 11:30  For my yoke is easy and my burden is light.

Let's put our faith in Him, believe what He says about our burdon being light, He will sort it all out.

How can anyone here say with any certainty whether Saddam had WMD or not? It is a matter of faith, some prefer to believe Saddam over Bush but how can anyone be certain? He sure acted like he had weapons, why didn't he give the inspectors access? That was his mistake.

How much sympathy does someone deserve who waves an empty gun at the cops when a SWAT team is surrounding them? If they choose to threaten when they could have submitted.

Yes, it is trendy to trash Blair and Bush, but are we to follow worldly trends? It is also justifiable to many to want to see the terrorists crash and burn. How about praying that your family and loved ones are kept safe and have faith in Him to bring it all to a glorious conclusion.

Peace,

Joe

[YellowStone]

Yellowstone,

I'm not here to pick on you, but I have to address the scripture you keep refering to......

Lets look at scripture surrounding this verse you keep bringing up.

1Jo 3:10  In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
1Jo 3:11  For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
1Jo 3:12  Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.
1Jo 3:13  Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you.
1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.
1Jo 3:15  Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16  Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17  But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18  My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

What John is saying here is what Christ told us!

We are to LOVE everyone, including helping our fellow man by having compassion for them, even though God has blinded their hearts.

We know that we have passed from death unto life when we can love our brother (neighbor) as we love ourselves.

This is the spiritual warfare I am talking about. Not some physical war.

All of these political people running this country are already dead, but God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like our military.

My only concern in this age is to love my brother, and that means everyone in this entire world, but I don't let them into my spiritual house and entertain their heresy.

So I post these scriptures again to all who support retaliation of terrorism and war!

2Jo 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jo 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him Godspeed:
2Jo 1:11  For he that biddeth him Godspeed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Love your enemies and obey the doctrine of Christ!

In Christ,

Alan

Alan

You raise some intersting points and I thank you for sharing your view and the additional scriptures.

I think the following scripture is the one causing contention (in good faith) between us.

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.  

And you correctly state:

What John is saying here is what Christ told us!

We are to LOVE everyone, including helping our fellow man by having compassion for them, even though God has blinded their hearts.

Then you say:

All of these political people running this country are already dead, but God is using them for His ultimate purpose, just like our military.

Alan, this is perhaps the most pompous statement that I have heard on this forum. Are you God? You are absolutely certain that God has written every soldier off, and in no way could possibly be teaching each of them things that even we do not know.

May I ask you a question? Are you free of sin? For you know that whoever sins is of the devil. Can you say that this is not true. Satan has a very strong hold on the entire world and me.

1Jo 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. [/list:u]

But we are not without hope, for we have the love of Jesus Christ and the comforter that intercedes for us.


Jhn 14:26 But the Comforter,

[which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. [/list:u]

And he pleads and begs for us;

Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. [/list:u]

Without a doubt, even though we are sinners still, we do have a greater hope with the spirit than those who the spirit knows not.


Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. [/list:u]

James conveys this very well in the scripture above. Without the spirit our body is dead! No turning away from that one. But is that all that is needed. Not according to the latter portion of that scripture, for it continues on saying: Faith without works is dead.

Are these physical works or spiritual works; would you believe both. Jesus spent the latter portion of his life helping the sick and dying. He loved them and he went to their aid, many by their faith were healed by it alone. To say that once we have the spirit, we must only concern ourselves with spiritual matters, is only a half truth. For we are commanded that:


1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.[/list:u]

Our physical actions must match our words, both in deed and truth.  

Likewise:


Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God.

Rom 13:2 Therefore he that resisteth the power, withstandeth the ordinance of God: and they that withstand shall receive to themselves judgment.
 
Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:

Rom 13:4 for he is a minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is a minister of God, an avenger for wrath to him that doeth evil. [/list:u]

Would you prefer that terrorists be given free reign to terrorize at whim? Would you prefer that our "dead" soldiers stay at home, would you take comfort in seeing millions perish under unceasing attacks?

Alan, you cannot have the spiritual without the physical. Read again Romans 3:13 -

For rulers are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. And wouldest thou have no fear of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise from the same:[\b]

We who live in the US and other Western nations are truly blessed. We can help millions by stopping a relative few. But you continue to use the word "HATE." I do not see it my friend, I do not have it, feel it or see it; rather I see love and compassion for the very little ones who are unable to help themselves. We can help them and we do. Why?

Perhaps it is just as we are commanded to do: But you say these people who are ordained by God are "dead." Are they any greater sinners than you? I mean that in all honesty, are they greater sinners than you. They are however obeying one of Jesus Commandments:

Rom 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the higher powers: for there is no power but of God; and the powers that be are ordained of God. [/list:u]

And in doing so, are helping there fellow brothers and sisters, for failing to do so is clearly ignoring God's word.


1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath the world’s goods, and beholdeth his brother in need, and shutteth up his compassion from him, how doth the love of God abide in him? [/list:u]

Do you really disdain, helping those who are unable to help themselves. We are commanded to Alan, doing nothing is not enough. Please read and understand Jesus' words.


Mat 25:42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:  

Mat 25:43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.  

Mat 25:44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?  

Mat 25:45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did

[it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me.  [/list:u]

This teaching is both spiritual and physical. Do you not see the connection? We are commanded to help and protect:

Jhn 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. [/list:u]

Do you still believe that our soldiers are "dead" that our "Government" is dead also. Are they greater sinners than any one reading this?

Remember, each of who has God in our hearts and souls have a personal relationship with him. Who can say what goes between God and anyone of his subjects. Alan, neither you or I.

But we do know this; We have the great comforter interceding for us (Rom 8:26) and who knows what the "groanings which cannot be uttered." truly are.

Alan, our relationships with God and Christ is personal, I think you are wrong telling me that our soldiers and authorities are "dead." This is not for any other than God to know.

I don't hate Bin Laden, in fact I hope and pray that he will surrender and denounce Islam.

God Bless,

YellowStone

[Alan]

Yellowstone,


First off, I don't feel I'm being pompous, but standing on the Word of God.

I am not God!!!!!!!!!!!!!.......but,

1Co 2:16  For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

Rom 15:6  That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

This is Paul talking to God's Elect.
To be of one mind, we have to know the truth! This is what we strive for.

What you are saying about love in deed and truth is the truth, but I believe there is nothing done physically without being spiritual.

As I quoted before......

Joh 6:63  It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

No man can love with God's love without His Spirit.



This is what Christ told us about the many called.............

Mat 24:5  For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Mat 7:21  Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22  Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23  And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So if this is the many called, then the unbeliever will definitely be told to depart.

I'm putting this down to show you that, once again, it's all spiritual.

Many can do good works, such as.....

      1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither with the tongue; but in deed and truth.

If the Father and the Son live in us, then the physicality of good works will definitely happen. We will be like and have the mind of Christ.

      Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Faith is of God, so will be our works.

Eph 2:8  For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

This is the sovereignty of God.....

Eph 1:5  Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

His good pleasure is for all mankind!

I think the difference here is the understanding of God's will.

What God wills in the natural man is different that what He wills in His elect.

God would not will one of His elect to go and break the commandments of Christ, but He would will the natural man to do His work, just as He uses Satan to do His work in this world. The natural man abides by the law of Moses, and sometimes not even that.

So, with me, myself, following the commandments of Christ, I do not agree with what is going on in this world. We are not to be part of this world, but we have to live here, and by living here, we follow Christ's example and love in deed and truth. This is done by the Father and the Son living in us!

I hope you understand what I'm saying.

When I say that the authorities and personal of our government are dead, I mean exactly that. I'm not playing God at all, but I'm showing you the difference between the natural man and the elect.

Anyone that is going against the doctrine of Christ is the spritually dead.

Joh 8:51  Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see (spiritual) death.

Rom 6:23  For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Rom 8:6  For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.

1Jo 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.

The scriptures you use to prove your point in Romans 13 are what most of Babylon uses to support their belief in war, along with the law of Moses.

To end this, yes I am a sinner!

But with Father and the Son living in me, I have dominion over sin.

Rom 6:9  Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Rom 6:14  For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

It is my hope that you see what is written here.

All of God's will is being done. He does not contradict and when He says...
Love thy enemies......He is speaking to His elect and not the natural man who He has hardened their hearts. I just believe that the scriptures tell us that he who does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have the Father or the Son living in him.

This is truth and the sum of His word tells us this!

In Christ,

Alan

[eutychus]

post all yall what.
here is truth, do i please men?

Zarky died at his appointed time.
God is in control
unseen lives are saved.
for what ever reason God wants.
his will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
All Glory and honour to CHRIST.
creator and substaner of ALL things.
love
euty.

Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Isa 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these [things], that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by the greatness of his might, for that [he is] strong in power; not one faileth

Pro 3:5 Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.