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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: loretta on June 13, 2014, 01:14:05 AM
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Modern research suggests that it's all in the brain, the frontal lobe to be exact. The part of the brain that is responsible for making sound judgments/choices. That part that gets hijacked by other parts of the brain when under stress or undue influence. Actions that we take are not necessarily a result of free will or poor choices but involve brain chemistry.
This article is about addiction, but a brings home the truth that we have no free will.
The overwhelming majority of adults in the western world have passed through experimental stages in their lives where they have dabbled with some kind of brain altering addictive substance, i.e., cigarettes, alcohol, prescriptionpain killers, ADHD medication, anti-anxiety medication, and yes, even marijuana (save the ‘it’s not addictive” arguments for later, please). And the overwhelming majority of these adults will emerge from their experiments unscathed, believing that their free will and good choices are what saved them from becoming addicted.
The problem with this thinking is that it is factually incorrect. In other words, they are all wrong.
What saved them (you) from becoming addicted is that their brains did not respond in the same way that an addict’s brain does. They were born with a resistance to addiction. Their free will and good choices had nothing to do with it.
http://debbiebayerblog.com/2014/02/04/phillip-seymour-hoffman-did-not-have-choice-or-free-will-and-neither-do-you/
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Very informative. Thanks Loretta.
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Was it really their choice that got them addicted? Or there will? I was a drug addict and a hardcore one at that, but it wasn't buy my choice. for it is God who works in me both to will and do of His good pleasure! It is all God. No free will. :)
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Hi Mike,
Yes it is all of God and there is no free will, but we certainly are held accountable for the choices 'we' make. As we are designed with intelligence and the ability to reason things out we are a very active participant in what is happening in our lives. We are not just zombies being forced to do all the things we do. Our words and actions, though all caused, we think these things through and willingly (even if it's a weakness/addiction that we just can't resist) we decide, voluntarily, to do/say/think everything that 'we' do.
Here is an email where Ray covers this.
http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility ----
You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:
"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Kat! If it was my choice I would have stop it way before God stop it! I have been struggling to see it the way LRay and You are stating. I hated who I was and if it was my choice I would not have kept doing it. I just see God in complete control over my whole life,scriptures like these make complete sense with a God who is in complete control, totally sovereign!...O Lord, thou hast searched me, and known me. Thou knowest my downsitting and mine uprising, thou understandest my thought afar off. Thou compassest my path and my lying down, and art acquainted with all my ways. For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O Lord, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it. Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence? If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea; Even there shall thy hand lead me, and thy right hand shall hold me. If I say, Surely the darkness shall cover me; even the night shall be light about me. Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.
Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them. (Psalms 139:1-13, 16 KJV)... For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I. If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (Romans 7:15-25 KJV)....there are so many scriptures that only make sense when God is completely sovereign. I think this is a touchy subject for some, but I believe that God is in complete control of everything and nothing is left up to us, this to me would take away from a sovereign God......Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.
Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. For all our days are passed away in thy wrath: we spend our years as a tale that is told.
And let the beauty of the Lord our God be upon us: and establish thou the work of our hands upon us; yea, the work of our hands establish thou it. (Psalms 90:3, 8, 9, 17 KJV)....this is why I have a hard time seeing it the way you see it... There are hundreds of these scriptures....Anyhow this is all in love...Mike
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Hi Mike,
Oh I'm certainly am not saying that our accountability takes away any degree of God's sovereignty, not at all.
Heb 1:3 who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power... (also the YLT has it) bearing up also the all things...
Col 1:17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist (NKJV); has its cohesion (CLV); hold together (Rotherham)
If God stepped back, even for an instant, everything would just vanish away. But this experience in this life is for 'our' benefit, for 'us' to learn by and that's why God made it so we have to answer and learn, gain knowledge from what we do. He is giving all of us this life experience and what we gain from it is very important, even critical that we learn about good and evil now, to form a base character. He has this all planned out and yes it will go exactly as He has ordained it to be down to the most minute detail.
Isa 46:10 Declaring the end from the beginning, And from ancient times things that are not yet done, Saying, 'My counsel shall stand, And I will do all My pleasure,'
It also is intended that mankind not be aware that God is directing our every step, or is indeed sovereign. He is letting us think we have control of our destiny now, because that's the behavior He wants us to have for now, that's how the world is what it is.
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
But this is just the first step, maybe more like the rough/crude outline of bringing into existence/creating all of us human beings. He is shaping and molding us through certain experiences that's creating every single one of us into unique individuals. That's why we have such great diversity in life situations, environment, influences and personalities, no 2 people can possibly have the very same experiences, therefore creating the individually.
All that's happening in this world is so very intricate and complicated and it's all interwoven together, absolutely everything in the entirety of the universe is Him doing it and that's so incredible to contemplate. This is all being done by a very masterful Orchestrator to have a definite out come for each and every individual. So this is just the beginning of making all humanity into His image/likeness, perfect.
John 17:23 I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
If we are of the very few being finished to perfection now, that is the greatest blessing one could hope for. But for the vast majority it's in the next age that He will continue to work and shape and mold those into something good and perfected. Something worth keeping around from then on.
Heb 11:40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.
1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
v. 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
v. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus,
v. 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Matthew 6:13 helps my understanding on this subject.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil; For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever, Amen.
And mayest Thou not be bringing us into trial, but rescue us from the wicked one.
Are we trying to serve God with our whole heart like Job? Or are we constantly looking for some mischief to get into is the question?
Joel
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Hi Kat! :). I have a hard time with me being accountable for something God takes me through...,Thou hast set our iniquities before thee, our secret sins in the light of thy countenance. (Psalms 90:8 KJV), if I am somehow accountable then God is not sovereign. There is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. And I am now starting to see God in everyone and everything, and that also makes me understand that he is revealing Himself to those who he is not keeping himself hidden from and we are few! Jesus said if you seen me you seen the father!,and as he is in this world so are we! All we do is retain knowledge!
Also God is not letting me guide my own destiny, he is in total control and will complete his work in me! Ahhh strange work indeed!!! All in love...Mike
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God is responsible because He made us as we are, which is to automatically sin. He doesn't force us to sin. We just do it because that is our essence.
We know this because of the two scriptures, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "There is none righteous, no not one."
However, we are accountable because from our heart we agree to sin, we love to sin.
When I sin, I am always 100% for it. I only have regrets after the fact.
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Hi John! If God gives us that carnal nature would not that make him accountable? Isn't that why God saves us! I never enjoyed doing the things I didn't want to do, I hated being a drug addict! If I was subjected to it how does that make me accountable? It doesn't . I knew this would be a touchy subject, but if I had to be accountable they there would be something I would have to do to save myself!.... the darkness and the light are both alike to thee. For thou hast possessed my reins:...All in love...Mike :)
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Lol, God isn't holding us accountable, He's birthing children!! :) :) All in love...Mike. Let me edit! God is getting the natural ready to be birthed the spiritual,God is getting the mortal ready to be birthed immortal, God is getting corruption ready to be birthed incorruption,God is getting weakness ready to be birthed in power,God is getting dishonour ready to be birthed in glory!! :)...All in love Mike.
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Hi Mike,
The thing is 'you' were the one doing what you did, just like we all do... so I am only accountable for myself. God designed it so we are held accountable, if we were not then we could/would have no reason to stop bad behavior. This is so we can 'learn,' and even if we don't get it figured out in this life, well it will be taught to us in the judgement of the next age.
So we do what we do, even if we don't enjoy it... and we all will answer to God.
Rom 14:15 Yet if your brother is grieved because of your food, you are no longer walking in love. Do not destroy with your food the one for whom Christ died.
Heb 4:13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.
1Peter 4:3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetimefn in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
v. 4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
v. 5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
1Co 3:12 Now if anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw,
v. 13 each one’s work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one’s work, of what sort it is.
v. 14 If anyone’s work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward.
v. 15 If anyone’s work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
mercy, peace and love
kat
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God designed it so we are held accountable, if we were not then we could/would have no reason to stop bad behavior. This is so we can 'learn,' and even if we don't get it figured out in this life, well it will be taught to us in the judgement of the next age.
In harmony with what Kathy is saying, being "accountable" to God is a part of His Master Plan. It is a form of "judgment" whereby we will learn righteousness, and it is through judgment that we will be saved. This is a good and marvelous thing! :)
Romans 14:10b-12 -..."For all of us, shall present ourselves unto the judgment seat of God; For it is written—Living am I, saith the Lord, unto Me, shall bow every knee and every tongue shall openly confess unto God. Hence, [then] each one of us, of himself shall give account unto God." (Rotherham's)
Isaiah 26:9b - "For when your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness." (ESV)
As Ray once stated, "The final judgments of God will bring salvation to all!" http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
René
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God is responsible because He made us as we are, which is to automatically sin. He doesn't force us to sin. We just do it because that is our essence.
We know this because of the two scriptures, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God" and "There is none righteous, no not one."
However, we are accountable because from our heart we agree to sin, we love to sin.
When I sin, I am always 100% for it. I only have regrets after the fact.
Ain't that the truth? It always comes afterwards and then you start to feel like there are two people raging inside of you.
Romans 7:22-24 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man: But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Galatians 5:17 "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."
Mark 7:20-23 "And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man. For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: All these evil things come from within, and defile the man."
Ecclesiastes 3:18 I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts.
Alex
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Hi Kat! The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29 KJV). For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV). Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: (Galatians 1:4 KJV). Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3 KJV). So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28 KJV). Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24 KJV). Well I don't see anything to be accountable for according to theses scriptures... I have used scriptures in this string that really says what I am saying. Here's the last thing I will post on this, here is a man trying to be accountable to God..... Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (Job 40:1-14 KJV)..... :) All in love...Mike
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Hi Kat! The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29 KJV). For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV). Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: (Galatians 1:4 KJV). Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3 KJV). So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28 KJV). Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24 KJV). Well I don't see anything to be accountable for according to theses scriptures... I have used scriptures in this string that really says what I am saying. Here's the last thing I will post on this, here is a man trying to be accountable to God..... Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (Job 40:1-14 KJV)..... :) All in love...Mike
James 1:12-13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it is good or evil.
Romans 14:12 So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God.
Here is a promise that we will be held accountable for what we say. Do you think our actions are somehow different?
Matthew 12: 36 "But I tell you that for every careless word that men shall speak they will be held accountable on the day of Judgement."
Can you judge a man's conduct when he cannot be held accountable for his actions?
Rev 20:12 "And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing in front of the throne. And books were opened; and so was another book--namely, the Book of Life; and the dead were judged by the things recorded in the books in accordance with what their conduct had been."
Revelation 20:13 "And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."
Pay attention here, its not man's body that is being judged sinful, its man's WORKS, HIS ACTIONS. He is being held ACCOUNTABLE!
Can you get beat for doing something you are not accountable for?
Luke 12:47-48 "And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."
God has held his people accountable for their ways in the past and God does not change. Do you think you're somehow special in the matter? (God is no respecter of persons).
Ezekiel 18:30 "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, saith the Lord God. Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin."
There are countless examples in the scriptures of individuals being held accountable and then chastised, punished, or destroyed for what they are now being held accountable for.
You are no different, you will be held accountable and I have a feeling that anyone who thinks they will escape judgement are the very same who will not receive the crown of life.
God bless,
Alex
P.S. Job in no way contradicts or detracts from the fact that you are accountable for your actions and words.
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There is only 144.000 that are either being judged or who have been judged in there lake of fire/Jesus and will be apart of the first resurrection! I don't see in scripture where you will have to go through the lake of fire twice! Your carnal accountable nature won't make it into the first resurrection,self won't be in that resurrection. God will resurrect sons and they will not have a carnal nature standing there ready to give account. God will have burned that carnal nature out in the lake of Jesus/fire.....All in love Mike :D
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There is only 144.000 that are either being judged or who have been judged in there lake of fire/Jesus and will be apart of the first resurrection! I don't see in scripture where you will have to go through the lake of fire twice! Your carnal accountable nature won't make it into the first resurrection,self won't be in that resurrection. God will resurrect sons and they will not have a carnal nature standing there ready to give account. God will have burned that carnal nature out in the lake of Jesus/fire.....All in love Mike :D
First off, there are not two separate resurrections, there is only one. That mention of the second is SPURIOUS and does not exist in the earliest manuscripts.
I don't know if anyone mentioned going through the lake of fire twice. We are in agreement that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. The elect will be resurrected with spiritual bodies and be like Christ. I agree with this. I wouldn't use the term sons and daughters though, that is a bit too broad in my opinion. Yes, God will have tried, refined and purified the elect at this point and so they will not be standing carnal to give an account.
What does this have to do, exactly, with humanity being accountable to God for its actions? That each individual is accountable, for what he or she has done, to God? Could you clarify?
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Well if you can save yourself then you go ahead and be accountable! I am being judged right now, and Gods judgements are righteous. And it is him who does his will and good pleasure in me! And when he is done I will be ready for the birth.... And maybe read Job and ask God to show you what he's saying... :) All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, does this mean anything to you? All in love Mike :)
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Well if you can save yourself then you go ahead and be accountable! I am being judged right now, and Gods judgements are righteous. And it is him who does his will and good pleasure in me! And when he is done I will be ready for the birth.... And maybe read Job and ask God to show you what he's saying... :) All the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing, does this mean anything to you? All in love Mike :)
Being Judged for what Mike? According to you, you've done nothing wrong. It's all God's doing, you're not one bit accountable.
Alex
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If God doesn't give you a experience in evil how will you know evil? If he doesn't give you a experience in good how will you know good? To God the darkness and the light are alike ! They are a expression of love. When God brings you through them/ good and evil you learn his righteous judgements and that's what I am saying, I am going through His judgements! God isn't concerned with sin, it is tool to bring about sons. And yes we will be sons!...Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. (Isaiah 45:11 KJV)... Anyhow All in love...Mike
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Hi Alex ! Pay attention here!! Didn't LRay teach you that Jesus only taught in parables? And yes in what you call the resurrection they will be judged for there works ! But the first fruits are learning his righteous judgements now! And the rest will Learn later! All in love..Mike :)
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If God doesn't give you a experience in evil how will you know evil? If he doesn't give you a experience in good how will you know good? To God the darkness and the light are alike ! They are a expression of love. When God brings you through them/ good and evil you learn his righteous judgements and that's what I saying, I am going through His judgements! God isn't concerned with sin, it is tool to bring about sons. And yes we will be sons!...Thus saith the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me. (Isaiah 45:11 KJV)... Anyhow All in love...Mike
We are in agreement that good and evil contrast one another and that one cannot exist without the other, at least not in a state that we could comprehend.
There are plenty people around the world who are experiencing good and evil and yet are learning nothing about righteousness. Its not good and evil that teaches us righteousness. It is God's judgments.
Isaiah 26:9 "for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." It doesn't say, "For when thy good and evil are in the earth, the inhabitants will learn righteousness.
Also, it is through judgement that God's grace can teach us righteousness by His spirit:
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God [God's divine influence upon our hearts] that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
and
Hebrews 12:5-11 "And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ********, and not sons. Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
You are not learning righteousness because of good and evil. You are learning righteousness because God is judging you because you are accountable for your actions, since all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and through His judgement He is teaching you by His spirit acting upon your heart--righteousness. This chastisement becomes plainly visible by our fruit.
Galatians 5:22 "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law."
As for this whole experience of good and evil, what purpose does it serve? I suppose many, many purposes but the best decleration I know of its purpose is this;
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
I don't think there is a verse though that states explicitely, that we learn righteousness by experiencing good and evil. No. That is only come through judgement and we are judged by our works, the works we are HELD ACCOUNTABLE FOR.
God be with you,
Alex
P.S. Yes, Jesus did speak in parables, the Word of God is one big parable. I did quote a parable, you are right. It however, does not detract from the point that was being made. There are many layers of truths to a parable.
P.P.S. Also, I think God is very concerned with sin, one of the big messages of the new testament, and in fact the old testament was, repent of your sins and turn from your iniquities. Jesus died for our sins. The death of the Son of God should not be laid to nothing.
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Yes, He is creating sons and daughters.
Hebrews 12.
Mike, I don't want to argue over varying understandings of what "accountable" means. I've beat that horse senseless. The first time you used, it was you who chose...even though a combination of multitudes of influences, beliefs, and circumstances (brought about by Sovereign God) coupled with your own weakness and (likely) lust (the way you were made--and all of us were, in our own way) led you to do what you absolutely could not have avoided. And then addiction happened--which only multiplied those influences, beliefs and circumstances which, when coupled with your susceptibility for addiction (which was also there outside of your own will and doing) caused you to continue.
Then the Lord God said, in effect--"enough is enough." And He used His faith and grace and another set of influences, beliefs, and circumstances known only to you (and likely not completely known EVEN to you) to deliver you from that pattern. To my mind, this is the SCOURGING referred to in Hebrews 12. NOW, you are under a different multitude of influences, beliefs and circumstances leading you to a different outcome...all ordained of God out of Love. Yet (and I hope this is Good News) you are not simply predestined, but predestined to good works, which the Lord has foreordained that you should walk in them.
Thank God, He has foreordained ALL to follow this pattern (each in his/her own way), but the timing of this is in HIS hands...and neither LIFE nor DEATH can separate us from the Love of God. The world at large, and the greater part of the world of Christendom don't believe this, however. Hell, they can't even agree on what constitutes "good works".
I'm in there somewhere. Everything I've ever done, it has been ME doing it. But everything I've ever done has been--at the moment I did it--not without cause. Let me know if I've missed the mark completely with you. I'm pretty sure, however, that you currently think that 'to not use' is a better way to live than 'to use'. Sounds like you thought that even when you were 'using'...at least when it got away from you.
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Hi Kat! The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (John 1:29 KJV). For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; (1 Corinthians 15:3 KJV). Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: (Galatians 1:4 KJV). Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3 KJV). So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. (Hebrews 9:28 KJV). Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. (1 Peter 2:24 KJV).
Well I don't see anything to be accountable for according to theses scriptures... I have used scriptures in this string that really says what I am saying. Here's the last thing I will post on this, here is a man trying to be accountable to God..... Moreover the Lord answered Job, and said, Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Then Job answered the Lord, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth. Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further. Then answered the Lord unto Job out of the whirlwind, and said, Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me. Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous? Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him? Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty. Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him. Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place. Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret. Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee. (Job 40:1-14 KJV)..... :) All in love...Mike
Mike you said, "I don't see anything to be accountable for according to theses scriptures." But are you going to just disregard all the Scripture that I have already posted that clearly show we are to be held account, either now are in the age to come?
Psa 119:160 The sum of your word is truth, and every one of your righteous rules endures forever.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Alex, yes there are plenty of people around the world experiencing good and evil, but God isn't judging them. I never said good and evil teach you righteousness. My typing should have said when he brings you through them you learn his righteousness from his judgements! It is him that brings you through them, And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou? (Daniel 4:35 KJV)..( Your quote...you are not learning righteousness because of good and evil,you are learning righteousness because God is judging you because you are accountable for you actions.) Okay if God gives me judgements in my addiction and that's how he holds me accountable, is this what you are saying? He gives me the carnal nature and He gives me the addiction and then judges me which makes me accountable?
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Hi Alex! Yes you are right in saying the the death of Jesus should not be laid to waste concerning sin! What I should have said is the God doesn't look at sin like a carnal man does! good night! All in love... Mike :) PS Dave and Kat I will reply to you tomorrow , thanks you guys...:)
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No, Mike He doesn't judge you "because you are accountable". You are accountable because you do what you do. He judges you, chastises you, "graces" you, to teach you. All that because He loves you and has bigger plans for you than "guilty/not guilty" and "punishment/no punishment" or "heaven/hell".
He is responsible. And even better, He TAKES responsibility! He died for the sins of the world, after all, and did so even while we were yet sinners. It's His will that the world learn righteousness. His will be done.
We are held accountable and must give account (not just for bad, but for good) because we don't LEARN without accountability...and if we should, then we don't know what we've learned UNTIL we give account.
Jesus gave the message about the Pharisee who prayed "Thank you that I am not as this publican" and the publican who prayed "God have mercy on me a sinner" and asked which one returned to his house justified. Among other things, the publican gave a true account. Don't be afraid of this word. All the scripture you shared and Kat and Alex shared is true and don't contradict.
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Good morning! Meaning of account: 1.
a report or description of an event or experience.
"a detailed account of what has been achieved"
synonyms: description, report, version, story, narration, narrative, statement, explanation, exposition, delineation, portrayal, tale; More
an interpretation or rendering of a piece of music.
"a lively account of Offenbach's score"
I am okay with giving a account!! Meaning of accountable, 1.
(of a person, organization, or institution) required or expected to justify actions or decisions; responsible.
"government must be accountable to its citizens"
synonyms: responsible, liable, answerable; More.... I can't see me being accountable if it is God doing the work in me! If I am doing the work then God is no longer sovereign! Is this agreeable? All in love...:) Mike
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Hi Dave! Is it really me that does it? Or do I just Go through it and experience it? If He does all his will and good pleasure , and none can stay his hand how do I do anything? Therefore how could I be accountable? Yes give a description/account, but to be accountable for his actions does not make sense to me! Because if he is doing the work in me they it is His actions for His purpose, and how could I be accountable for that! I know some don't think that God makes you sin, but He in fact made you who you are, a carnal man who hates God and wants nothing to do with him, a sinning beast! Anyhow off to work I go, and may Gods day for you be filled with joy! :) Mike
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Mike, you cannot blame God for your sins (though He does take ultimate responsibility), because God does not actually tempt anybody to comment the sins that they do.
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, “I am tempted by God”; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone.
v. 14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1744.0.html ---
ALL IS OF GOD, but not is all of God directly. God created man--man SINS, God if free from sin and never sins or MAKES OR FORCES anyone to sin. Neither does He FORCE people to be rich or famous. God created man and man chooses what he does based on the strongest motivation in his heart.
And most people's heart consists of lust, lies, blasphemy and the like.
"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempts he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of HIS OWN LUSTS [whether for bad and evil things or for for what we may perceive as good things which may not be good or righteous things], and enticed" (James 1:13-14).
Man has the ability to make choices. He does not have the ability to make choices that are free from any cause. The "cause" of most of our choices is our mind and heart. And of the abundance of our heart, our mind thinks, our tongue speaks, and in our body we take physical action. Only God can give us a "new" and pure heart.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1937.0.html ---------
Everyone has the ability to make choice, but that choice is based on SOME CAUSE, and that cause is what renders the choice to be not free.
God foresaw EVERYTHING in His creation BEFORE the creation. Therefore, nothing is "free" to go contrary to what God already knows MUST AND WILL BE! "For it is GOD which works in you both to WILL and to DO of His Good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13). We must first believe the Scriptures before e will be able to understand the Scriptures.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Dave! Is it really me that does it? Or do I just Go through it and experience it? If He does all his will and good pleasure , and none can stay his hand how do I do anything? Therefore how could I be accountable? Yes give a description/account, but to be accountable for his actions does not make sense to me! Because if he is doing the work in me they it is His actions for His purpose, and how could I be accountable for that! I know some don't think that God makes you sin, but He in fact made you who you are, a carnal man who hates God and wants nothing to do with him, a sinning beast! Anyhow off to work I go, and may Gods day for you be filled with joy! :) Mike
Mike, don't ask me to accuse you of having done anything. Perhaps you are the only person I have met who hasn't done anything. :D Me? I've done and still do everything I've done and do...AND I've "gone through it and experienced it". Those things aren't mutually exclusive, nor do they have the same shade of meaning. Peter (and the others) denied the Lord. It really wasn't until AFTER he did what he did that he FULLY "went through and experienced" WHY he did what he did. Do you think he wept because somebody else did it? Yet, looking back he remembered that it was the LORD Himself who "prophesied" what he would do. He couldn't have done differently, but he did what he did.
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Kat, if I can make a choice, then when I hated sticking a needle in my arm and wanted to and tried to stop several times why couldn't I ? My choice would be to stop but why couldn't I , then after years of struggling and hated it I stop, why? Let me answer that, because God granted it! If my choice was to stop why couldn't I ? Let me answers that,because God wouldn't let me! There where a lot of things I wanted to do but couldn't why, why, you guys are dancing around the sovereignty of God, none of you have commented on any of the scriptures I stated and that's okay, but is it because you don't believe them Kat? Dave, Peter had in his mind and heart to die that night with Jesus! Let me tell you why he denied Jesus, because God wouldn't let him do anything else, and maybe that's why he wept, because he wanted to do something/his choice, but God was sovereign and Peter wasn't. Alex you are a wise man and I respect your understanding and your thoughts. Thank you all, All in love...:)
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Hi Mike, Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God." We can't deny this scripture. It's there in our Bibles!
But what does it mean this "giving account"? I'm going to give you my personal belief. I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins. Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake. It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching. Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes. The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged. Part of being judged is being taught. How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us. When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life. Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways."
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us. Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.
Salvation is a processs. Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature. Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.
thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.
Cindy
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Mike, of course I believe all the Scripture that you have posted, they are just part of the equation though, all the other Scriptures must be considered as well. I cannot say I can fully relate to what you have been through, because I have not been through anything like that, but the Apostle Paul did mention having just such feelings as you have talked about of helplessness to the pulls of the flesh.
Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin.
v. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do.
v. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good.
v. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
v. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
v. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
v. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
Yes Paul certainly understood about the sovereignty of God, probably better than anybody else, and we have his words that we shall give account.
Rom 14:12 So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.
I will give you another email from Ray because his articles are the reason we have joined here for these discussions, so we can strive to help one another in understanding these things. Now after all of this I do not feel you have come here to seek like minded fellowship, but to try and booster your own ideas of what the Scripture says about these things.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2354.0.html --------------------
Dear Whirlwind:
You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."
I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.
So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.
I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!
God be with you,
Ray
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Kat, I am not trying to booster my ideas on scriptures, I am trying to understand how we will be accountable, I can see giving a account, two different meanings! Anyhow I guess if I am not like minded they I must be lower then you, and that's okay I have always been lower then most! And I will not bother this website any more.
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No, not really two different meanings. You just need to use a better dictionary. ;D Forget the whole "Accountable" word if it bothers you. It seems to be a stumbling block for some. Trust me, the whole stupid english language is not worth the heartache.
Mike, seems like what you are describing is similar to Pharaoh in his dealings with Moses and/or Aaron. There came a time when he WANTED to let the children of Israel go, but the LORD hardened his heart for His own purposes. "Wanting" and "choosing" are not the same thing either. In the end, he CHOSE not to let them go UNTIL HE CHOSE TO LET THEM GO. The evidence is--HE DIDN'T LET THEM GO...and then he did.
Who gets credit for that? God does. Who takes responsibility for hardening Pharaoh's heart against his own former wishes for a season? God does.
Then you have Peter. I don't doubt that Peter wanted and intended to "not deny". I don't think he was lying about his wishes and intentions. I just think he was wrong about what he would do when the time came. His "will" didn't match his "imagination". This "experience of evil" is to humble us.
Who "prophesied" what Peter would do? Jesus did. Who knew Peter better than Peter knew himself? Jesus did.
Peter and Pharaoh are not the same, but they both have one thing in common.
When I was a young christian just starting college, I fancied myself a pretty devoted believer. The first day in a History class in my first semester, the professor asked derisively if there was anybody present who believed there was a God. I COULD NOT raise my own hand...and that was to simply acknowledge a vague belief in some form of God as a thing or a person or whatever--nothing compared to what Peter was facing.
Talk about being humbled. I'm STILL humbled by that forty years later. I can't go back in time and "fix" that. There was a reason (many, actually) WHY I was unable to raise my hand. It's been in understanding THOSE that I've experienced the "good" from that event. But it wasn't "good" at the time, just "good for me".
How's that for "better than somebody else"? You actually may have nothing on me as far as being "worse than others". I know VERY well that we can't do what we want just because we want to...even if we really, REALLY want to. That too is of God.
Even if we DON'T want to...that too is of God. But that's not the end of things.
Hi Mike, Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God." We can't deny this scripture. It's there in our Bibles!
But what does it mean this "giving account"? I'm going to give you my personal belief. I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins. Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake. It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching. Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes. The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged. Part of being judged is being taught. How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us. When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life. Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways."
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us. Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.
Salvation is a processs. Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature. Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.
thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.
Cindy
yep.
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Hi Mike, Romans 14:12 "So then, each of us will give an account of ourselves to God." We can't deny this scripture. It's there in our Bibles!
But what does it mean this "giving account"? I'm going to give you my personal belief. I don't believe we must give an account so we can be punished or condemned for our sins. Nor do I believe it's for God's sake because He already knows everything we've done, indeed, every inclination of our hearts.
Giving an account (accountability) is for our sake. It is part of our judgement - and remember judgement is, yes, chastisement, but also discipline and teaching. Indeed being held accountable is a necessary part of our salvation.
We know know judgement and salvation are gradual processes. The elect are being held accountable NOW, as they are being judged. Part of being judged is being taught. How can we learn if God does not open our eyes to the beast within us. When He opens our eyes we say "Yes, Lord, I am a beast and I've acted like beast my whole life. Please, Lord, live in me, kill the beast and all his sinful ways."
That is what accountablity means to me - Looking at myself thru Christ Jesus eyes, and owning up to what I am.
We are the beast with no good in us. Yes, God made us this way. For a purpose - when we see ourselves as we really are we know there is no salvation, no hope for us without Christ Jesus..He is our salvation.
Salvation is a processs. Part of that process is having our eyes open to our hopelessly sinful nature. Seeing ourselves as we really are, admitting our sins, is being accountable, and is part of judgement. It is Christ Jesus bring us to salvation.
thanks for letting me put my 2 cent in.
Cindy
This is what I was trying to say earlier, but Cindy explained it so much better. :)
René
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Kat, I am not trying to booster my ideas on scriptures, I am trying to understand how we will be accountable, I can see giving a account, two different meanings! Anyhow I guess if I am not like minded they I must be lower then you, and that's okay I have always been lower then most! And I will not bother this website any more.
Mike, you do not have to run away because we are not agreeing with you. Humility is a part of the process. ;)
René
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Thank you Alex, Kat, Dave, Rene, and Cindy, I now see it. And it makes sense! I am a little rough around the edges, a man with little education and sometimes I have to go over things many times to fit it together! I am also having a struggle with this sovereignty and choices thing, but just reading that link you posted Kat kinda helps but I will keep going over it because I don't think God brought me here to keep my eyes closed! Sorry for rudeness! PS Rene there's no place left to run! If God brought me here to humble me then let it His will be done! Mike :)
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Keep up the good fight toward God's Kingdom. God is for you for sure and we are as well.
:)
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So glad to hear this, Mike. What all of us have shared is not the end of things either. It's a mighty big hump to get over, but it's worth the climb.
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Thank you Alex, Kat, Dave, Rene, and Cindy, I now see it. And it makes sense! I am a little rough around the edges, a man with little education and sometimes I have to go over things many times to fit it together! I am also having a struggle with this sovereignty and choices thing, but just reading that link you posted Kat kinda helps but I will keep going over it because I don't think God brought me here to keep my eyes closed! Sorry for rudeness! PS Rene there's no place left to run! If God brought me here to humble me then let it His will be done! Mike :)
I'm delighted you are sticking around. We all must be humbled. It's a very good thing! :)
René
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Hi Mike, I'm very glad to see you back and your response made me very happy... I was afraid that I had been a little too hard with what I said. It truly is a miracle from God that any of us can see and understand these truths, praise God!
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi everybody! Okay is this correct! God is sovereign, and by causes unknown to me/God, God causes me to make choices, choices he knows already that I am going to make and then holds me accountable when he judges me, and through those judgements I learn righteousness? Mike :) RPJ
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And if my last statement is true, then that must be how God overcomes the world in me ? :D I think I see it!! So it's not God in me doing it,it's God (or the carnal nature God gave me) causing me to do it and then I make the choice God all ready knows I will make! This is so much clearer. Then holds me accountable for that choice when he judges me and teaches/graces righteousness!!
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Mike, I am overjoyed that you will be sticking around with us. I think if you continue to grow and share with us your experiences here, you will not regret it. We are all richer for having one another and being able to keep one another's company. I know I am always saddened when a member decides that they can no longer continue there journey towards God with us. We don't all , always see eye to eye but there is a strong like mindedness here and indeed the mind of Christ that I don't think you will find anywhere else. We are all still struggling and 'fighting the good fight' as God allows us and everyone is at a different stage in their walk but we are all here to support one another and promote growth in each other. Iron sharpens Iron right? We keep an eye out also for those wolves, we've had a few, but God is faithful and His flock He maintains.
I look forward to your continued contribution with us here Mike.
I'm sorry if I was a bit forward with you as well, it is simply how I interact with those whose intentions and manners I am unfamiliar with, but I meant it no offense.
God bless,
Alex
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Thank you all in this post, I am grateful for your honesty and being who you are with your replies, no need for apologies on any of your parts, for it was I who was rude and I apologize to you all, but it all worked out for good because God opened my eyes to the truth! Glory to God!! Thank you's I am blessed by this website and thankful to still be welcomed....:)
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Hi Mike,
Just read your post "I now see it. And it makes sense!" Wanted to let you know that you made my day!
You may think you're a man with little education, but our Lord is giving you
a better education than any worldly institution of higher learning. And your "degree" will lead to a much better "job"... heck, you already know more than
most of Christendom's preachers with all of their degrees and titles. With
God's spirit you are a very smart man!
Glad you're staying on the forum.
Cindy
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Just a bit more encouragement.
HIGH ABOVE among the "circumstances" that have formed, are forming, and will form us are the LIGHT OF CHRIST which has come into the world. Even those who don't believe, and even those who are hostile to it are both tools He uses and recipients of His Grace and Judgement, just as we are. The only question is when.
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Thank you everyone, even today it's just amazing when God opens your eyes to the truth!! It truly does set you free! Thank you guys for all your two cents worth ;) Cindy :) I know this is the right place because God brought me here for the revealing of His Truth!! Peace to you all :) Mike