bible-truths.com/forums

=> General Discussions => Topic started by: odading on November 17, 2011, 02:49:18 PM

Title: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 17, 2011, 02:49:18 PM: Dear members,

Please first let me introduce you a bit of me.
I haven't baptized yet (there for I'm not truly Christian), I don't have any base from other religion, and I don't read Bible except when I need to read while having a discussion and finally I'm not from English speaking country and Christian majority country.

I've read "The Myth of "Free Will" Exposed - Part A", but not all - as the English is too hard for me which then made my headache ... :)

In short, I do believe about freewill.
bible-truths.com against it.

Below is a bit "story" about my understanding of freewill :

God made LAW - cause&effect.
By this law - He gave human a freewill.
Freewill is known only when human commit action.
So freewill is always under His LAW-cause&effect.

Of every people daily activities, it's not God personally Will - infiltrating human to act this or that - but "god" in people who decided what to do and it will be always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect.

IMHO, God not personally WILL which made me to decide to wear a blue shirt (rather than the white one), and get wet when out of house because it rains suddenly and I don't bring the umbrella, so I change the wet one to a white shirt.

One thing I do believe that it is God's Will.... : my life.
So in everything which happened to me, good or bad, happy or sad - I'm always trying to remember His Love, and be grateful for His Will that I'm still alive till the day and do daily activities. (everything I did, I possessed etc - is nothing by the time He take my life).

Another thing is when He personally Will to someone.
If I may say, something like miracle - Saulus for example,
or even me - when one day I'm baptized and become Christian... :)

There are some goodness I see in freewill.
people become responsible
people can not reason : "oh ... I'm a prostitute because God's Will"
people learn
people want to change to good
poeple can not judge other : "it's wasting time to preach this bad people - God's will they are bad"

So that's a little "story" of my understanding about freewill.

My question,
do I have to force this my understanding : "God gave me freewill and BE responsible !" to change to "I don;t have freewill, God gave me illusion power" - if so at least member of this Forum won't think that I'm wrong ?

and how do I even force it when the force itself is none in me because God's will ?
It is God's Will that I am wrong.

Any kind of respond will be greatly appreciated.
Thank you in advanced.

regards.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: octoberose on November 17, 2011, 03:39:44 PM: Welcome to the forum. We're glad to have you.
I know others will write more eloquently than I to answer your questions and comments but I just wanted to let you know this is a great place to ask those questions. Your English is very good and I applaud your diligence in learning both another language, and being a seeker into the Truths of God.
It's hard for us to not believe in free will when we feel that we are in control, that we are making the decisions. Most people do believe that, but most people are taking God's place in their lives. When you continue to read Ray's article you'll see that we make Choices and that is different than free will. Choices though, are caused by something, something that we have no control over, and that is part of the myth of free will. Even then, the Bible tells us that we are "called to account" for our actions, so what we do is very important. God doesn't "make us sin". We are sinning machines, we volunteer for it and He did make us with a sinful nature from the very beginning.
God draws us to Himself, and the word draw actually means drags us. If He's drawing me, where's the free will?
I have two golden retrievers. They make choices all day long (Am I going to wait here on the deck, or am I going to chase that rabbit?) But their choices do not interfere with my will for them. I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc. Now, this example can only go so far because I am not Sovereign God, I am only human. But my dogs act the way we humans do- they respond to what they know within the life I have set up for them and the nature that God has given them. We're kind of like that.
Ray also speaks on baptism. I struggle with that myself, but I know that no physical ritual makes us spiritual. When the Bible uses the word 'baptizo' it is speaking of immersion. The definition does not mean immersed in water, just immersed. They were immersed in the Holy Spirit and that is a work of God, not human hands. Yes, I am baptized, but that didn't "save me". That saving takes places over my life and into the next.
Keep reading, keep asking. You'll see we like to wrestle with things on this forum. You are just like us, a creation of God and seeker so don't think you can't ask or that we judge you. Having you here is a gift.
Have a lovely day,
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Extol on November 17, 2011, 03:45:27 PM: Hi Odading,
Free will is the freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention. By that definition, one does not even need to believe in God to see that there’s no such thing as free will!

Maybe there was no specific cause that day—the temperature, for example--that made you choose the blue shirt instead of the white one. But there are many causes for you having the shirts in the first place. Think of all the people that had a part in getting the shirt to you: farmer, cotton picker, salesman, truck driver, clerk, manager, cashier... You can start with the farmer. He wanted to grow cotton because he wanted to feed his family. He chose to grow cotton because he lives in a good climate for that. Then the people who bought his cotton bought it because they wanted to make shirts (because they wanted to feed their families). Go on and on down the line, and you’ll see there are many causes which brought you the shirt.

You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?

To answer your question, YES, it is important that you understand God is sovereign. The most evil doctrine in the world—the belief in eternal torment—is justified by people who believe in free will, because they say it is not God doing the torturing. “People chose of their own free will to go there.” This is ridiculous nonsense, of course. Nobody would really choose to be burned in fire for a minute, not to mention forever! There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.

Read the Bible—it doesn’t have to be English—and read Ray’s articles as much as you can, even if you do it slowly. In The Myth of Free Will you will find dozens of Scripture references that talk about this subject. Write down all of those verses and then look them up in your own language. You’ll see that God is truly sovereign. In due time, God will open your eyes to this Truth.

Kind regards. ;)
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: gmik on November 17, 2011, 04:02:59 PM: Welcome to the forum!!

I don't believe in free will but I get confused sometimes by the BIG questions (who do I marry) vs. little daily questions (white or blue shirt?)

Looking backwards at my life I see God's hand directing "life events" in my choices. But we make a million tiny decisions each day that don't seem important at all.

It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me ;)

I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends. They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride! They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.

Anyway, you can get instant translation on the computer. do you have access to that? God Bless you on your journey to truth....and you are so right....It is God's will if you are wrong! :D

Hope you can understand this...if not...NO WORRIES!!
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 17, 2011, 04:24:30 PM: Hi Odading

I am sure others can do a much better job of explaining than I can, I will tell you my understanding, if I can get it into some words.

It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.

First of all, NONE of us know the future. NONE. We do not know which or how or if any of our plans will succeed, or which way God is going to take us. So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all. Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort. Great tiring and profound struggle is what forges the character in us that God wants to achieve. So you are right, that cause and effect is very important, a great teacher to us all, and it exists, but it is suboordinate to the even greater truth that God causes all.

As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever). But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't. She/we are ALL ignorant of God and His ways and laws and Jesus for a while, but not forever! The prostitute has made hundreds of decisions, or her own will, (even though these willful decisions are caused by forces she may not even understand or be aware of) hundreds and hundreds of willful decisions to be and participate in what she is. In time God will take her out of this sinful lifestyle, he will change her HEART inside in the proper manner that she will learn to HATE and DESPISE the sins she is captured and enslaved too. She will repent of her individual voluntary participation in this lifestyle. Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins, God doesn't FORCE us to sin. So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it. BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THEOBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!

We, if we know Jesus, we are TO HELP IN THIS REPENTANCE. to reach out and RESCUE by preaching and by acts of charity and help to be ambassadors of Christ to the prostitute. To have the Jesus IN US do THE WORKS THAT hE WOULD DO! Of course the harvest is always dictated by God. We are merely laborers. But because we don't know the harvest, WHO IS GOING TO COME, we are to plant and till and do all we can to help others. Just like the gold medalist trains. Just my understanding in a nut shell.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Akira329 on November 17, 2011, 05:48:51 PM: Hey Odading,
You said,
Quote
In short, I do believe about freewill.
bible-truths.com against it.

So why did you join this forum?

Did you come here expecting members to convince you to change your mind?
Were you hoping Ray would convince you?
If your not convinced, why join?

Quote
My question,
do I have to force this my understanding : "God gave me freewill and BE responsible !" to change to "I don;t have freewill, God gave me illusion power" - if so at least member of this Forum won't think that I'm wrong ?

and how do I even force it when the force itself is none in me because God's will ?
It is God's Will that I am wrong.

You would only change your mind about it so members don't think your wrong? What is that about? Never mind what God thinks!
You spent a great deal of time to explain your beliefs of freewill. Why? Why here?

You read part of the paper, what exactly are you struggling with? It seems like you just have to make a choice based on your statements.

My advice to you,
You ask yourself what would change your mind.

Antaiwan
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: longhorn on November 17, 2011, 07:12:57 PM: I simply choose not to choose to make a choice whether I choose free will or not. That way the choice I choose leaves me with many more choices.to choose from.

Longhorn
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: musicman on November 17, 2011, 07:33:53 PM: I on the other hand choose to will my-self against all bad choices that I would choose if I chose to do the bad things that made me will lots of evil choices.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Revilonivek on November 17, 2011, 08:26:08 PM: The usage of words can be tricky and it can get slot of people upset. What ray is saying we do have a will but we do not have "free" will. I think it would help to know who God is really. Because once we do, everything would make sense.

Im thinking now what if God is energy itself? Its in us and around us. It has no beginning or end. It does not die. Its everywhere. We need energy to make evwrything in life function. Mother nature all around us work according to law, cays and effect and energy is behind it as well. U remember the story of 10 plagues. The ree water, is prob red tide that comes every few years. Then theres frogs. It died, then theres gnats. Then theres locust that eat gnats. locusts are unclean animals and can get into evwrything. Including food. And so on. They have this tradition where their first borns get extra servings of food that their younger siblings. Tha ia prob why the firstborns die. They are too much of diseased food that locusts inflicted on. Its cause and effect thing. So what if
God is energy itself? It can't be destroyed, nor has beginning nor end but it gives life, to something and can do cauae and effect controlling everything including mother nature because obviously God used mother nature against the egyptians who refused to let his people go. Energy is what gives life, takes life, creates everything and there is not anything that wasnt made of energy? Thoughts?
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 17, 2011, 08:46:06 PM: It's much easier to understand if you remove 'free' from 'free-will'. Every choice we make has a cause. The cause may be as insignificant as 'I want to wear the white shirt today.' Or it may be as important as 'I was born in my country and speak this language, therefor I cannot be in another country speaking a different language without emigrating and learning.'

We have laws, and we obey them for REASONS. We also disobey them for reasons. These reasons are 'causes' which rule our will and make it not 'free'.

Our choices are all caused by something or someone. And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc. These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God in creation. And He knows the end from the beginning. He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.

The WILL of man is not an illusion. Thinking that will is FREE is the illusion. It cannot be 'free' and 'caused' at the same time. It's always caused, and never free.

You ask if it is important. It is important if you desire to understand scripture and the nature of God. It is important if you want to find your place in the universe. This is HIS world. We are only creatures. If you want to know only what shirt to wear today, pick whichever you want. Maybe you can also understand that 'wanting' is also a cause, and that 'wanting' is also caused.

Take the advise above and study the article with the Scripture in your own language. Many people struggle with this--some for a long time. Don't be discouraged.

Good to meet you.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: longhorn on November 17, 2011, 09:52:55 PM: Not real sure I would choose Mine or Musicmans choices. However, if one should choose those choices, feel free (will) to choose the best choice.

Longhorn
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 17, 2011, 11:49:00 PM: Odading,

God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line, in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe. That is what is meant by, "there is no free will" What John said about us being clay is right from the scriptures. Dave brought up a really good point in pointing out the difference between "will" and "free will". No one, no one, except a Looney tunes, would deny that we each have a will, and that will does makes millions of choices throughout our lifetime. Is this decision making process free from cause? From God? That is the real question.

Interestingly, many scientists do not believe in free will. Many scientists who do not believe in spiritual things are of the opinion that all our decisions must be predetermined, since the brain being the source of decisions, that brain being in compliance with cause and effect, with natural laws, cannot operate outside of natural laws, so we can always trace the effect, the decision, to a cause. They believe if we know all the causes at any given time, we can predict the effect(the decision) with certainty.

I think that last line, is close to what Ray has written about choice. Since we are responders to causes, and since the strongest cause or causes will compel the choice(our will), then since God can orchestrate the causes, He can control the effects.

However, Ray is much different than the scientists in that He does believe in the spiritual, in God. And He and most of us here at Bible truths, do believe there are spiritual causes that are unseen, and these spiritual forces are all at the ultimate control of God.

How do these spiritual causes effect the brain, which is substance, matter? No one really knows, but spiritual forces do. I personally am of the opinion that the uncertainty of quantum mechanics and the duality of matter, being both wave and particle, is the key to the doorway, but that is not in view in this discussion, it is simply said that I do believe science will increasingly show over time that that the observer, the conscious mind, does effect matter at the quantum level. Many experiments have already shown this. And this is enough to show that spiritual forces can influence matter, which can influence decisions. OK enough of that for now.

It is possible people may misunderstand that my continual? exhortations to be righteous, to encourage ourselves to DO things; to be in conflict and indicate I believe in free will. This is not the case. I prefer to let my confidence in God being in control of EVERYTHING to be an anchor for my faith, but then I want to seek and search and follow Him with all my heart. I can think of NO other way to be, to grow in Him. I do things that the scriptures tell me to do, and I encourage others to do so, too! I personally leave the parsing of each and every individual cause to God alone, and watch over ONLY my own heart and actions. I want to be changed by Godly causes, like scripture, like by a renewed mind, by the Spirit of God, by the washing of the Word, by following the admonitions of scripture by delighting myself in the Lord, by seeking His resurrection, to actually, somehow be an over comer. I want Jesus to be manifest in me, I really do, and to the best of my ability I seek Him fearfully, meaning I know from experience how weak my flesh is, but I so want to be strong. So I TRY (in italics cause it is hard) to keep focused on my heart, yet I have the certain confidence of God being in control of everything that keeps me at great peace. Does this make sense?

Knowing God is in complete control is a bedrock, and it shows how little you are, in actuality.

I sense in you a desire to be righteous, and that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?. So I have tried to give you a small glimpse of how I approach it. Others I am sure will have their own ways. Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive! So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way. That is NOT the correct understanding of Gods Sovereignty. It is not a license to disobey and be sinful. It is an anchor for the soul to give you peace in an uncertain world. It shows you are the clay and He is the Potter. It is still incumbent on you to obey Him, to obey the scriptures, to do good works, and then, give Him all the praise for giving you the strength to do so. None of the admonitions and accountabilities of scripture are removed or made invalid by the fact that "free" will does not actually exist.

Doug
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 18, 2011, 04:38:07 AM: Wow.... I'm touched there are so many responds from all loving member here.
Thank you... thank you very much in deed to all my responder.

I'm very sorry I can't respond to each respond, but in general I learn and understand about my topic in progress because of all my responder.

I know now, make choices is different than freewill.
Will is a will itself but can not called "free".

Quote from: octoberose on November 17, 2011, 03:39:44 PM
I decide what they eat, when they eat, when they go to the doctors, I bring them to classes on doggy behavior. I give love, I give treats, I withhold treats, etc.
But what about if I prepare his food, and he doesn't want to eat the food prepared in that exact time ? Is it the dog's freewill ? or is it the dog's choice (or just Will) ?

Quote from: Extol on November 17, 2011, 03:45:27 PM
You can say more about this, too. Why do we wear shirts at all? Because we want to keep warm, and because we want to cover our nakedness. But why shirts? Why don’t we wear fish tanks? Because our bodies aren’t shaped to wear fish tanks. Why are our bodies shaped the way they are? Because that’s how GOD made them. You see all the causes?
Yes.... as in my first post I quoted that my "freewill" will always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect. But then now I know, I can not call that a freewill - it's a choice or just a Will.

Quote
There are other reasons why free will can be dangerous. It can make you proud, and make you rely on your own limited abilities, and a number of other things.
To be honest, when I thought it's a freewill God gave me - it did make me "proud" :).
But "proud" in different sense... "proud" that God trusted me by giving freewill and I need to be responsible of that... I need to "warn" myself that whatever my choice to do is will have effect.

Quote from: gmik on November 17, 2011, 04:02:59 PM
It is easier for me to just pile all my decisions onto God's "shoulders" and let Him be responsible for me ;)
This is one reason that I like to have "freewill" ... :).
Every result which I did is not God's responsibility.... with my "freewill" I choose to eat too much then get stomachache is not God's responsibility... :).

Quote
I also have trouble explaining any of this to my free willer friends. They just don't want to "give up" any control and that is Pride! They don't want to be robots...even tho scripture plainly states HE is the potter and we are the clay.
Do the one who admit there is no freewill - must admit also that they are just robot ? puppet of God ?

Quote from: DougE6 on November 17, 2011, 04:24:30 PM
It is true that free will does not exist. Does this mean we can't preach to bad people? Or one can reason "I am a prostitute because it is Gods' will? I would answer No to the first and a very careful and qualified yes to the second, qualified Because she is still fully accountable!.
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?

Quote
So we by "default" HAVE to do our best, if we want to achieve any purpose, support our famlies, learn something new, run a business, achieve, do a ministry, resist evil, etc... even though God has already determined what will happen. The Olympic athlete must always train and train, and practice and practice, even though God has determined already he would win the gold. Without this training the Gold Medalist would not win. SO our participation is required because WE DO NOT KNOW THE FUTURE. We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying, or "laissez faire" just because God causes it all. Even though God may be the cause, we still have to put in the effort.
This is a very difficult "situation" for me.. :)

How "our participation" be required, when the participation itself is not because us, but God's Will ?

How an athlete must always train and train, while actually there is no "must" but God's Will who put "the must" or "not must" ?

We can NEVER have an attitude or NOT trying - how possible someone is "trying" or "not trying" if God Himself Will this athlete to "trying or NOT trying" ?

Quote
As far as the prostitute? yes there is truth that the prostitute is fulfilling what God had foreordained to happen and what she should be, at least for a short while(we will not be sinners forever).

"for a short while"... what about if she died as a prostitute ? From Ray's website, I learn that all human will not be sinner forever... it happen either maybe during someone still live or after he died. - doesn't matter much because whatever it is, she will not be sinner after the judgement ?

To be honest, on the contrary I can not think that God personally foreordained to happen that the woman should be a prostitute. But His LAW-cause&effect apply to her life (our life also).

Quote
But it does not mean that she can use that as an excuse, TO CONTINUE! NO, she can't.
But in the real world... she of course can say that as an excuse, right ? (applying because it's God's Will for her to say the excuse ?).

Quote
So all, each of our lives WILL include a time in deep sin of some sorts, it is necessary for our spiritual development to go through it. BUT THIS BRINGS UP AN OBLIGATION! THE OBLIGATION TO REPENT OF OUR WRONGDOING!
But how people is to oblige, if the obligation itself is God's Will to oblige or not to oblige ?

so that's why to escape from this IMO "difficult situation" battling in me, it's not God who personally Will - but His LAW-cause&effect which "work" on the daily activities human life.

Would you please enlighten me :
Is it God whom personally "infiltrate" (do His Will) in every human daily activities ? Or is it His LAW that works ?

Quote from: Akira329 on November 17, 2011, 05:48:51 PM
So why did you join this forum?

Did you come here expecting members to convince you to change your mind?
Were you hoping Ray would convince you?
If your not convinced, why join?
Because IMO, having a freewill is a good thing - so I joined the forum to know more about no-freewill.

Quote
You would only change your mind about it so members don't think your wrong?
That's not my main point, you will know by my subject-title : "is it important" ??

Quote
You spent a great deal of time to explain your beliefs of freewill. Why? Why here?
so the forum know what kind of "freewill" which is in my opinion. So my responder won't waste their time to describe what I already know.

Quote
You ask yourself what would change your mind.
Then I don;t need to join the forum, if I can find an answer by myself ... :)

Quote
Quote from: Revilonivek on November 17, 2011, 08:26:08 PM
we do have a will but we do not have "free" will.

Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 17, 2011, 08:46:06 PM
It's much easier to understand if you remove 'free' from 'free-will'. Every choice we make has a cause.
Yes... I think I'm now starting to understand.. that what I call "freewill" is actually just the will ... :)

Quote from: DougE6 on November 17, 2011, 11:49:00 PM
that it would be hard for you to understand how one can not believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in free wills "accountability". Is that correct?.
Nop... :) as mostly the one believe in freewill whom are "judged wrong" - so it's vice versa : how one can believe in free will and yet still be accountable and feel the inner drive to obey and follow him, like one would do if you believed in NO free wills "accountability" ...:)

Quote
Your fear actually has some validity, studies have shown. Recent studies have shown that if you convince experimental subjects that they have no free will, that their actions are not of themselves, they are less inclined to help others and become more aggressive! So your anxiousness may be rooted in that, that you fear a temptation to become that way.
Actually it's not the "temptation to become that way" that I've been thinking of... but "how come God's Will infiltrates every single daily activities of human life".

IMHO He made His LAW-cause&effect, this LAW will work by itself based on the Will (I don't use "freewill" anymore now ... :)) He gave to every human.

In Adam&Eve case, IMHO He knew "it will happen" - but He didn't personally WILL influence Eve to be deceived.... on the contrary He did "warn/advice" (which I assume that this warning is to show He loves) not to eat the fruit, which indirectly telling that there is a LAW-cause&effect. Whether to eat or not is still AdamEve to decide... If I may say, somewhat like "let it happen" :)

About the potter and the clay.
I don't see in Jeremiah that the potter deliberately make the vessel spoil, while in Rome the potter seems deliberately make the vessel spoil.
How this contradict ?

Finally, thank you very much again to all my lovely responder.
I'm sorry if my respond is too long and please pardon my English.

best regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 18, 2011, 11:09:51 AM: Hi Odading,

Welcome to the forum :)
Well we're having no free-will is one of the hardest things to believe and let go of, because our carnal mind wants desperately to think it has control. But what about the sovereignty of God? If God is truly sovereign and totally in control and actually holds all this creation together, then where is our free-will?

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.
v. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist.

We are in an age of spiritual darkness, of great delusion, Satan has deceived the whole world.

2Thes 2:11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,

Rev 12:9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

This is all necessary for God's plan, in His wisdom He has worked out the very best way inwhich we all will be brought to perfection (maybe not the way we would have done it). We are first to have a backdrop of darkness/evil, so then we need to be brought to the light/righteousness.

Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens:it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it. (CLV)

God is working all this out behind the scene where we are not aware of His controlling all things. However God being in control and ultimately causing all things to happen does not make Him evil and a sinner. Here is a excerpt from the article no. 10 'The Synagogue of Satan - There's One Near You.'

http://bible-truths.com/lake10.html -------------------------

SATAN’S ROLE IN SALVATION

Satan does play a role in the salvation of the human race. Satan is just one more "evil" that God uses in bringing many sons into glory. The very reason that the above heading might turn some heads is not because it isn’t true or completely Scriptural, but rather because the world has been deceived about most of these spiritual things. God "created evil" (Isa. 45:7.) God does not create things that do not serve a good purpose. By the way, the word translated into "evil" in Isa. 45:7 is the Hebrew word ra, and it is the very same word translated hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of times as "evil" throughout the Old Testament.

Now the word ra does not have a conscience and therefore has no moral bias. Evil is not ‘SIN.’ God created evil; God Himself is not evil. And strictly speaking, God did not create sin, nor has God Himself ever sinned. What God has done is created humanity in a spiritually weakened state that is totally incapable of even understanding spiritual laws and principle, let alone being capable of obeying them. And this was not a sin or mistake on God’s part; this was weakness by design. Therefore, God is responsible (certainly not accountable,) but responsible for all sin. And God has already taken responsibility for all sin by sacrificing His Son, Jesus Christ:

"Behold the Lamb of God, which TAKES AWAY THE SIN OF THE WORLD (John 1:29);

"And He [Jesus] is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" (I John 2:2.)

Some have tried to show that Isa. 45:7 is speaking of "calamity" and not "evil." Of the nineteen times that the word "calamity" appears in the Scriptures, it is never translated from the Hebrew Word ra, but usually is translated from the Hebrew word, ade.

Adam and Eve did not sin because they wanted to sin. No, they sinned because they were too spiritually weak to resist sin. True, they did volunteer to sin, but again, that was because they were too weak to resist the temptation to sin.

It is an incredible thing how many people fault our first parents for sinning. They believe that all the problems of this world and all of the problems that we individually suffer would have never come about if our first parents, Adam and Eve, had not been so stupid and had not sinned. How utterly foolish and unscriptural is such a thought. God never intended for our first parents to live perfectly in such a weakened spiritual state.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

All people who ever live are deceived, wretched sinners and most will go to their grave this way and the world thinks all these are lost, and God is justified to send them to an eternal hell to be tortured forever. What kind of twisted logic is that? Worse though is that's blasphemy to our God. Well they are deceived.

Rev 3:17 Because you say, "I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing'--and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked--

Only a very few are being given the truth in this life, the rest will be raised in the resurrection of damnation and judgment, to be purged and cleansed in the Lake of fire and at that time "the people of the world learn righteousness."

Isa 26:9 With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

But for now it is a very few having their eyes opened, a very privileged few.

Deu 14:2 For thou art a holy people unto the LORD thy God, and the LORD hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto Himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth.

1Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;

Ray's articles are filled with the truth you are looking for. What a great blessing that you are beginning to have your eyes opened yo these truths. I pray it's God will that you continue to strive to learn these truths.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 11:20:56 AM: Quote
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).

There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?

Hope this helps; In Him,
John
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 18, 2011, 11:40:05 AM: Deep thinker you are, Obading!

When you boil it all down as you are attempting to do, you have two main factors..1. A cause or causes 2. A choice.

In the final end YOU DO make the choice. You own the choice as you MADE it. You made it for the most part, of your volition. You chose. You, many times, LOVE your choice. You like to think the choice is all your own. You DO feel responsible because YOUR choice reveals YOUR PREFERENCES. You then followed through on your choice. So YOUR choosing makes you accountable.

God is the CAUSER. He steers His creation through creating the CAUSES that CAUSE your decision. But He never takes away your part...YOU MAKE THE CHOICE> OH He full well knows what that choice will be, He knows that your will WILL chooose whatever causes resonates with you the most. What ever YOU PREFER. You will often choose to DO evil, because evil is in your heart. God knows this, but arranges the causes anyway, for good and great purposes.

This is why our CHOICES so well ILLUSTRATE what is in our heart. We will choose according to the preferences in our heart.

Spiritual growth requires that we need to have our hearts revealed. To ourselves. We need to become ashamed of the sin in us, to learn to HATE the wickedness and weakness and character flaws resident in us. Our responses to life, our choices show this clearly.

God has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart. Through the process of having us make choices, even choices that could not be chosen in any other way, is God's way of making us into His image.

We MUST all LEARN to HATE the character flaws and evil in our hearts, and rejoice and Love and Embrace the righteousness, the goodness, the fruits of the spirit, that He puts into our renewed hearts and minds. WE will THEN SEE OUR CHOICES CORESPOND TO OUR NEW HEARTS> Halleleujah.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: River on November 18, 2011, 12:04:22 PM: "Everything is determined, the beginning as well as the end, by forces over which we have no control. It is determined for the insect as well as the star. Human beings, vegetables, or cosmic dust, we all dance to a mysterious tune, intoned in the distance by an invisible piper." - Albert Einstein
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 12:47:00 PM: Kat was very wise to turn thoughts away from thinking about what does not exist--free will--and turning them towards what DOES exist--the sovereignty of God.

There's only so much the mind of man can understand about the ways of God. We really begin to learn these things in and through obedience. If you want to do good, then try to do good and see if you can. Try it as an experiemnt if you're not yet ready to commit. You'll learn more than the forum can 'teach' you.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 18, 2011, 12:47:34 PM: Quote from: Kat on November 18, 2011, 11:09:51 AM
Hi Odading,

Welcome to the forum :)
Well we're having no free-will is one of the hardest things to believe and let go of, because our carnal mind wants desperately to think it has control.
Hi Kat,

I think I know now that I'm mistaken...it's not freewill.
As the term "freewill" (from now on) I should change to "will" instead.

Quote
But what about the sovereignty of God? If God is truly sovereign and totally in control and actually holds all this creation together, then where is our free-will?
But one thing that still "bugging" me, I do realize God sovereign - but I do wonder whether God has to personally "infiltrate" human daily activities by His Will, while at same time He made the LAW-cause&effect.

Just like an analogy from octoberose (I know it can't be applied exactly because of different relationship).

If I prepared the food at 7pm for my son, as it's time for him to eat - but it turnout he doesn't want to eat - and my Will is that he is to eat at that time, do I have to drag and force feeding him ?

IMHO, it's only after the situation "pass/happen" - then someone can say : "it's God's Will"... when :
- if the result "brings" a nice/good situation : "it's God's Will, He loves me"
- if the result "brings" a not good situation : "it's God's Will, He hasn't allow me yet".

and worse, when I'm late bring my dog to see the doctor, because I'm quite busy with works - and then my dog die : "Oh God, why did you this to me ? You're responsible for my dog's death, I'm not responsible for this - because Your Will made me a lot work to do ... and so on and so on."

Oh my.... I can't and will never say that - because I fully understand, it is ME who put more attention at work, it is ME who delay to see doctor so it is ME who made my dog die.

Except, if I do abandon my work - bring the dog to see doctor soon, I do my best for the dog, but the dog still die then I'm sure it is God's Will that my dog has to die on that day and time.

To me, His ultimate Will is when He take His creature's life.

Quote
God is working all this out behind the scene where we are not aware of His controlling all things.
Hiksss... :'( , it's really difficult for me to understand if that "behind the scene" is that He personally control every daily activities each human life. (which made me think, it isn't necessary for Him to make His LAW-cause&effect)

Quote
However God being in control and ultimately causing all things to happen does not make Him evil and a sinner.
even in my believe that "He let it happen" - and when something bad comes up - I'm sure I'll never think that He is evil ... :)

(for me "He let it happen" is different than "He deliberately MAKE IT happen" :))

Thank you for your respond, the article and verses you gave me, Kat.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 18, 2011, 12:59:21 PM: Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 11:20:56 AM
God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
I've just search an online bible with "responsible" keyword. Why the verse use "responsible" not "accountable" ?

Quote
There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
In a real life can I make the analogy something like : The boss is responsible - his staff is accountable (which mean his staff doesn't need to be responsible to himself and his boss ? (very sorry... as I don't quite get the meaning of "accountable").

Anyway... thank you for your respond John.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 18, 2011, 01:24:26 PM: Quote from: DougE6 on November 18, 2011, 11:40:05 AM
We MUST all LEARN to HATE the character flaws and evil in our hearts
Dear DougE6.... I'm sorry... but really .. this is a very "difficult situation" for me....

suppose, God's Will the athlete to win by tomorrow. In order to fulfill His Will - so with His Will - He made the athlete to train hard today, and to every little things the athlete do today just as long as to support the athlete wins by tomorrow.

Then... where is "the must" ?
The athlete won't possible (or need not) to think "he must"... isn't God's Will have made him to do everything today in order he wins tomorrow ?

very sorry for my stupidity... :'(
and thank you for your enlightenment.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 18, 2011, 01:32:09 PM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 12:47:00 PM
Kat was very wise to turn thoughts away from thinking about what does not exist--free will--and turning them towards what DOES exist--the sovereignty of God.
Yes, she did. And I'm learning now, that it's not the "freewill" but it's only a "will"... :)

Quote
There's only so much the mind of man can understand about the ways of God. We really begin to learn these things in and through obedience. If you want to do good, then try to do good and see if you can. Try it as an experiemnt if you're not yet ready to commit. You'll learn more than the forum can 'teach' you.
This is a wise advice also for me. I think I can not rush everything.... I need to give myself "more time" to my understanding about how God "works" :)

Thank you so much Dave for your input.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 01:56:10 PM: You're welcome. And if you choose to do the experiment, the rest of us scientists may want to hear the results. :D
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 02:14:45 PM: Quote from: odading on November 18, 2011, 12:59:21 PM
Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 11:20:56 AM
God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).
I've just search an online bible with "responsible" keyword. Why the verse use "responsible" not "accountable" ?

Quote
There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?
In a real life can I make the analogy something like : The boss is responsible - his staff is accountable (which mean his staff doesn't need to be responsible to himself and his boss ? (very sorry... as I don't quite get the meaning of "accountable").

Anyway... thank you for your respond John.

regards,
odading.

Hi Odading,

In regards to your first question, what verse are you referring to?

As to your second question, yes that analogy would work. Here's another analogy: A parent and child. A child does something wrong. The parent is responsible because the child is the parent's procreation. The child is accountable for whatever he/she did wrong. If a child steals candy from a candy store, the parent has to pay for it. The child, however, is accountable because the child is the one who stole the candy. Because of the child's actions, the child may be banned from going to that store anymore. God is the parent (our Heavenly Father), and we are the child.

Hope this helps.

In Him,
John
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 18, 2011, 02:29:30 PM: Hi Odading,

I took a few excerpts from the Biblestudy ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.msg40741.html#msg40741 ----

From: the Nazarene.com (In italics)

The Principle of Cause and Effect underlies all scientific thought, ancient and modern, and was enunciated by the Essenic Teachers in the earliest days. While many and varied disputes between the many schools of thought have since arisen, these disputes have been principally upon the details of the operations of the Principle, and still more often upon the meaning of certain words. The underlying Principle of Cause and Effect has been accepted as correct by practically all the thinkers of the world worthy of the name. To think otherwise would be to take the phenomena of the universe from the domain of law and Order, and to relegate it; to the control of the imaginary something which men have called “chance.”

Comment: This is a pretty profound statement right there. What scientist or who do you suppose discovered or propagated this law of ‘cause and effect?’ What kind of knowledge and information would it take? What kind of scientific instrumentality would it require, to nail down this principle? Any ideas? A mathematician maybe? How long do you think they knew about this? Who do you think the first person was that came along and said, ‘do you know that everything in the universe that we see happen, had a cause.’? How long ago do you think that might have been?

About 425 BCE, Greek philosopher Socrates propounded the foundational of western philosophy and western thought. Socrates stated that we live in a world governed by law, whether we understand the principles behind it or not. It was later known as the ‘Socratic Method of Argument.’ It was from this premise that Socrates argued all his other philosophies. It was based on this one solid fundamental principle. Later it was known as the ‘Socratic Law of Causality,’ today called ‘The Law of Cause and Effect.’ It is nearly 25 centuries old and it was one of the reasons that Socrates was put to death. Just like declaring the earth revolves around the sun, rather than the sun around the earth.

Comment: I interject the thought here, suppose we do have free will. What good is it? Can you tell me something in your life that it has done for you that‘s good? It’s worthless, it’s worse than worthless, it’s pinning your hopes on something that doesn’t exist.

Here are more quotations from this paper.

As a result, physicists, neuroscientists and computer scientists have joined the heirs of Plato and Aristotle in arguing about what free will is. Whether we have it and if not, why we ever thought we did in the first place.

Mark Hallett, (researcher with the National Institute of Neurological Disorders and Strokes) said, “If Free will does exist, it’s a perception, not a power or a driving force. People experience free will. They have the sense they are free.

Comment: It’s a feeling, nothing but a feeling.

The more you scrutinize it, the more you realize you don’t have it.

In other words, he said we feel like we have it, we feel like we have this thing called free will. I mean you get up in the morning, you say I’ll have coffee and reach over an have that to eat. This is all free, see. Why is it free? Because we PERCEIVE it to be free. When you look at it carefully though, what does this scientist say, the more you look at it and scrutinize it, you realize you don’t have it. It doesn’t exist, it’s a figment of your imagination, it’s an allusion, it’s an idol of the heart. It’s something you wish you had and you want to have and whether you do or you don’t, you’re going to say you do. That’s what it is, it’s an allusion at best.

That is hardly a new thought (the German philosopher Arthur Schopenhauer said), as Einstein paraphrased it, that a human can very well DO what he wants, but cannot WILL what he wants.

Comment: Have I not said that through out my papers. Have I not said that if a man lusts after a little girl, he can figure out a way to corner her, steal her away, kidnap her, have sex with her and cut her head off. Can he do that? Can he not do what he DESIRES to do? Yes he can.

This is so profound. This is coming from Arthur Schopenhauer;

That a human can very well ‘do’ what he wants, but cannot ‘will’ what he wants.

I’m telling you there is more truth in that statement than most theologians have ever gleamed from the Bible in there entire lives. You can choose what you desire, what you want, how can you do that? The human brain, the human mind has the ability. It is beyond any computer, it is so fabulous and marvelous, it is beyond comprehension. That it can gather information and data and analyze it and make decisions regarding it. It can do that, there is no doubt that it can do that. But that it can do that without a cause, is total hog wash and unscriptural heresy and demeans the very sovereignty of God. It’s tantamount to saying, I know we are here, I know we exist, but no God made us.

Everything has a cause. Your thoughts, your choices have a cause and the second you take away the cause, you don’t have a choice. So the idea, that you have a freedom that has no cause to make choices, is insane, it is stupid.
v
v
So if human actions cannot be caused and are not random, then it must be what, some kind of weird magical power?

This is a scientist talking here. Dr.Wegner (of Harvard) said;

I think that exposing free will as an illusion, would have little effect on people’s lives or on their feelings of self-worth. Most of them would remain in denial.

Isn’t that the truth, they just deny it and say, ‘oh well my pastor teaches this and your just a scientist and I don’t believe you.’ He (Wegner) said;

It’s an illusion, but it’s a very persistent illusion; it keeps coming back. Comparing it to a magician’s trick that has been seen again and again. Even though you know it’s a trick, you get fooled every time. The feeling just doesn’t go away.

It’s amazing, even when people are educated that this can not exist, like a magician’s trick, they still go out from this Bible study and think some how they do have free will anyway, because it APPEARS that way. I mean the magician really did pull a rabbit out of a hat, and you know it’s a trick, he showed you how he did it. But when he does it, it still ‘appears’ like he did something magical and you believe it.
v
v
This is what should humble everyone of us. We are no better that anyone else! Except by the grace of God, that is the only reason!

Why don’t we all have leukemia? The grace of God.
Why aren’t we all blind? The grace of God.
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isn’t it us? Grace of God, no other reason.

God determined who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances. What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit, it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign, that’s why. He is in control of everything!

But people despise the Word of God. I show people a scripture and they despise it. “I create evil…” ‘No He doesn’t, it means calamity.’ There are words that mean calamity, there are words translated in the Hebrew that mean calamity, ‘RA’ is not one of them. In Isaiah 45:7 it’s ‘RA’ the same word translated over 600 times ‘evil’ that’s what He created.
-------------------------------------------------------------

There is so much to learn on all this, it takes a lot of study and pray to unlearn all these false ideas.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 03:39:17 PM: Here are two links to audio recorded at a bible-study where Ray taught extensively on the subject. I hope 'listening' is easier on you than reading. Either way, it is worth the headache. :D

Part 1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%201.mp3

Part 2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%202.mp3
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: GaryK on November 19, 2011, 05:06:12 PM: Douge6:

“Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,

God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”

John from Kentucky:

“In all things, big and small, good and evil, life and death---

God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.

There is a scripture that says birds do not die without His say.

Another scripture says the hairs on our head are numbered by God.

Those two scriptures show that

God micromanages all things to the smallest degree.”

Dave in Tenn:

“Our choices are all caused by something or someone.

And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc.

These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God

in creation. And He knows the end from the beginning. He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.”

Douge6:

“God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line,

in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”

John Michael:

“God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.

God doesn't make man sin.”

Douge6:

“God

has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.

Through the process of having us make choices,

even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,

is God's way of making us into His image.”

Kat,

from Ray:

“God determined

who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.

What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,

that’s why. He is in control of everything!”

=========-------------==========

and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 19, 2011, 06:53:40 PM: Mat 26:31-35 Then said Jesus to them, "All of you will be turned away from me this night: for it is said in the Writings, 'I will put to death the keeper of the sheep, and the sheep of the flock will be put to flight.' But after I am come back from the dead, I will go before you into Galilee."

But Peter made answer and said to him, "Though all may be turned away from you, I will never be turned away."

Jesus said to him, "Truly I say to you that this night, before the hour of the cock's cry, you will say three times that you have no knowledge of me."

Peter says to him, "Even if I am put to death with you, I will not be false to you."

So said all the disciples.

Jesus knew what would happen. Peter (and the others) denied that they would do what He said, denying therefor that HE DID know.

Mat 26:69-75 Now Peter was seated in the open square outside the house: and a servant-girl came to him, saying, "You were with Jesus the Galilaean."

But he said before them all that it was false, saying, "I have no knowledge of what you say."

And when he had gone out into the doorway, another saw him and says to those who were there, "This man was with Jesus the Nazarene."

And again he said with an oath, "I have no knowledge of the man."

And after a little time those who were near came and said to Peter, "Truly you are one of them; because your talk is witness against you."

Then with curses and oaths he said, "I have no knowledge of the man." And straight away there came the cry of a cock.

And the word of Jesus came back to Peter, when he said, "Before the hour of the cock's cry, you will say three times that you have no knowledge of me." And he went out, weeping bitterly.

Jesus knew it would happen. He said it would happen. It did happen. It still does. That's our hope. Why did Peter deny the Lord from His perspective? To fulfill the prophecy. God does His will all the time. Why did Peter deny the Lord from his own perspective? Because he was weak, in a word. God hasn't fashioned us strong. Haven't we got enough examples in Scripture, teachings of Scripture as well as our own life and observations that testify to this?

Just a reminder that this wasn't the end of Peter:

Act 2:14 (and following): But Peter, getting up, with the eleven, said in a loud voice..."Men of Israel, give ear to these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man who had the approval of God, as was made clear to you by the great works and signs and wonders which God did by him among you, as you yourselves have knowledge, Him, when he was given up, by the decision and knowledge of God, you put to death on the cross, by the hands of evil men: But God gave him back to life, having made him free from the pains of death because it was not possible for him to be overcome by it.

The sovereignty of God is everywhere in Scripture. Free-will is nowhere. I had to 'pretend' for a while that it was so, before I could see that it was. For the record, this isn't easy for me either, though it's not so much the doctrine anymore as the 'obedience' or the ramifications of the Doctrine in my own life. There are no surprises for God. There are plenty of surprises for our carnal minds.

Anyways, for whatever it's worth, there's the sermon.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 19, 2011, 07:07:23 PM: Hi gk

That was a very creative and well designed post! Just to answer the question I think was posed to me. I simply do not like the word "forced" I think Ray has said something very similar, that he does not like that word in these situations either, in emails. I think the word "forced" has connatations that we weren't going along with our choices, that we are making our choices against our own will. By definition, our will is making the choices! We aren't making choices AGAINST our will.

Doug
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 19, 2011, 08:54:35 PM: Here is a few places where Ray speaks on this.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,12957.msg113684.html --------

Aug. 2008 Bible study

FREE WILL

This really is an amazing concept. It’s been argued by theologians and philosophers for thousands of years. I mean going back further than the Christians faith; Plato, Aristotle - they all dealt with this thing of free will and so on.

Why do you think it is such a hard concept for people to understand? Why can’t they get it? [Comment: We make our own choices all day long.] Okay, so you think because it feels like we have free will? [Yes.] We don’t actually feel something hindering us, nobody actually twist our arm to make a decision. I mean we just kind of do it spontaneously, therefore we think nothing caused it. We may even think something may of influenced it, you know. But something actually causes it. Nothing made you think what you thought? Nothing made you do what you did? But of course it did.

We have to be careful about words, because words can make us very prejudice. We can say for example, someone is inspired to write a beautiful song. They were inspired, right? Or we could say somebody forced them to write a song… forced them. Well that’s not the same connotation is it, being inspired and being forced? But the truth of the matter is they both cause the song to be written, didn’t they? Yeah. So they are both a cause.

So the word 'cause' is not good or evil, I mean it’s just what it is. It can cause something happy, it can cause something sad. I mean the word ‘cause’ itself has no moral bias to it. So that’s true, people don’t feel like they are being coerced, therefore they think they have free will. But they don’t know what it is.

http://bible-truths.com/email14.htm -------------------------------

We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to make "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.

If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything, BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause forced, made or soften to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.

Therefore King Nebuchadnezar was CAUSED to see that it is God and God alone who rules in the kingdoms of individual men and corporate men. God said that it was HE, GOD, who CAUSED [MADE] the king of Assyria do the warring and slaughter that the king thought he himself had the ability to do.

Jesus said He could no NOTHING except what the Father gave Him to do AND TO EVEN SAY, and Jesus said that without Him, we also, CAN DO NOTHING.

Here is what the Scriptures say

"For it is GOD which works in you both TO WILL AND TO DO of His good pleasure" (Phil. 2:13).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 19, 2011, 09:38:45 PM: Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 02:14:45 PM
In regards to your first question, what verse are you referring to?[
Sorry for the delay... :)

it's in Genesis 44:31 and Numbers 30:15

Quote
As to your second question, yes that analogy would work. Here's another analogy: A parent and child. A child does something wrong. The parent is responsible because the child is the parent's procreation. The child is accountable for whatever he/she did wrong. If a child steals candy from a candy store, the parent has to pay for it. The child, however, is accountable because the child is the one who stole the candy. Because of the child's actions, the child may be banned from going to that store anymore. God is the parent (our Heavenly Father), and we are the child.

Thank you for your explanation, John.

regards.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 19, 2011, 09:44:35 PM: Quote from: Kat on November 18, 2011, 02:29:30 PM
Why don’t we all have leukemia? The grace of God.
Why aren’t we all blind? The grace of God.
Are there blind people? Yes. Why isn’t it us? Grace of God, no other reason.
I assume the one "not lucky" - they don't get grace of God ?

Quote
There is so much to learn on all this, it takes a lot of study and pray to unlearn all these false ideas.

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Yes.... I have to be honest, it still sooo difficult for me ... :'(

Thank you Kat for your explanation and support.

regards.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 19, 2011, 09:50:35 PM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 18, 2011, 03:39:17 PM
Here are two links to audio recorded at a bible-study where Ray taught extensively on the subject. I hope 'listening' is easier on you than reading. Either way, it is worth the headache. :D

Part 1: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%201.mp3

Part 2: http://bible-truths.com/audio/Bible%20Study%208_03_08%20Pt%202.mp3
Thank you Dave for the links.
I still haven't got time to download it and listen, but if God's Will then I will (most of my Muslim friends do that phrase :))

regards,
reko
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 19, 2011, 10:08:03 PM: Quote from: JohnMichael on November 18, 2011, 11:20:56 AM
Quote
But how can people be responsible if everything is God's Will and everything is His responsibility ?

God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is, for the way people are, and for everything. God doesn't make man sin. However, God did create man's heart exceedingly weak. Thus, God is responsible.

Man is accountable for his choices because man desires to sin, to do evil, and to be carnal (those desires come from that exceedingly weak heart).

There's a slight difference between accountable and responsible.

Accountable: subject to the obligation to report, explain, or justify something

Responsible: chargeable with being the author

Notice how one is the controlled and the other is the controller?

Hope this helps; In Him,
John

Very nicely put john! Thank you! :)
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: GaryK on November 19, 2011, 10:13:23 PM: To the original poster, I'm not attempting to steal your thread but allow me the flexibility for a few questions of my own since they are about free-will...........sort of.

Hi Dave. I’m not arguing that God isn’t omniscient. You’re right, scripture is full of details supporting same.

No problem there.

Hi Kat, thanks for bringing that out and, yes indeed, understanding that there is no free-will is a hard concept for so many, it has been for me and I’ve never pretended otherwise on this forum. It remains so.

But still, that’s not really what I’m attempting to nail down here. I think I understand the cause and effect, and, just as Dave said going back to God’s mind during creation, or before.

Got no problem with cause and effect.

But, it just seems rather contradictory to say that God controls everything by cause and effect, including our will to choose good or bad……depending on HIS will…..so we choose to sin by a designed weakened spiritual state which God installed in all humans………yet………he doesn’t cause us to sin. I get lost, right there in that last sentence. Makes no sense to me. God is responsible, yes, and we are accountable, yes……..but……..if I COULD choose to do good I would. But I don’t because of the weakened spiritual state, heart, mind…whatever…that HE implemented.

To me, he’s responsible and accountable for the cause and the resulting choice and the resulting sin, just as much as I am accountable to commit a sin.

Hi Doug, yes the word ‘force’ is strong and Ray has certainly deflated that idea that we are forced.

It’s interesting that you bring up the ‘will’ of man. I’m not arguing that it isn’t our will that is making choices. Of course it is.

But.

Ray also says in his free-will series that our will……..will……...always be in accordance with the will of God, and in that manner no one has ever gone against God’s purpose, his will, yes, we all do, but not his purpose……if our will, that choice that we make, good or bad, is in accordance with his will, the desired action and resulting consequence, is certainly how he wished it to be, then, we sin because he desired us to do so to bring about the desired outcome. To me he is just as much responsible for the cause of the sin as we are.

That isn't about free-will, it's about cause of the sin. He designed all things, sin included. He designed us weak, we choose to sin, his will wants our will to choose to sin, he causes us to sin. Looks simple enough to me. He doesn't like us to sin, but he wants us to do so.

Otherwise, by our own free-will (which we don’t have) we could choose to do other than his will, and that is not to be.

This isn’t about ‘free-will’ it’s about....who causes what.....and to me if God is the cause of all things, let’s pin the tail on the donkey rather than give him an out and say he doesn’t 'cause' us to sin. I see it as he did, does, will..etc.

I need desperately to understand this very thing, this is my crux, because you have no idea the hatred I have for God right now and the teetering back and forth on the loss of belief that he even exists. Here’s why. I’m putting blame on God for historical vile acts from way back when, to now, to yonder and I see it as he’s guilty of it all. To say he doesn’t cause mankind to sin and bring about vile acts and their domino consequences is hollow, that he doesn’t manipulate the lives of so many humans from some to good guys to others are bad guys, is simply non-sense to me. I see it as he certainly does. He will have mercy and whom he chooses and that includes giving knowledge, giving lifes good things whether they realize it or not now in this age or the next. Others are instruments of destruction. At his will. That’s fine to say he has mercy on those who are blessed, I’m sure they feel that way if they ever have the thought in their head. But what about those who aren’t so blessed? What about those who he’s manipulated their lives in such a way that there are no ‘bennies’, just hard times from birth to death. Where’s the mercy for them. There are people who simply don't understand their own choices that cause actions that results in long-lasting hardship(s) directly for themselves and others who are in their circle of life. If God is brave, let him......give them...... understanding that they HAVE NO CHOICE but to carry out his orders, rather than they be in constant wonderment as to why things are they way they are and just exactly who's in charge.

It’s all connected, at least to me, I just can’t see the lines to the dots.

Apology for the wall of words, just trying to express myself in a cordial yet continuous manner to get to the root of this deep valley.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 19, 2011, 10:13:54 PM: Quote from: gk on November 19, 2011, 05:06:12 PM
Douge6:

“Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,

God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”

John from Kentucky:

“In all things, big and small, good and evil, life and death---

God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.

There is a scripture that says birds do not die without His say.

Another scripture says the hairs on our head are numbered by God.

Those two scriptures show that

God micromanages all things to the smallest degree.”

Dave in Tenn:

“Our choices are all caused by something or someone.

And even the causes are caused through things we have no control over in our pasts and our present--our ancestry, our geography, history, etc. etc. etc.

These causes stretch all the way back to the Mind of God

in creation. And He knows the end from the beginning. He is the first 'cause' and continues to 'cause'.”

Douge6:

“God being in control of all things, is actually the bottom line,

in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”

John Michael:

“God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.

God doesn't make man sin.”

Douge6:

“God

has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.

Through the process of having us make choices,

even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,

is God's way of making us into His image.”

Kat,

from Ray:

“God determined

who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.

What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,

that’s why. He is in control of everything!”

=========-------------==========

and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?

Because of our exceedingly weak hearts that God created (responsible!) when we sin we absolutely wanted to commit the sin in our hearts (We are accountable.)

There was no forcing on God's part because when we actually did commit the act of sinning, we absolutely wanted to do it. It was really us doing the sin, US making that choice, we really wanted it! We are that spiritually weak. It takes God's strength, His spirit, for us to do any good because without Him, we basically volunteer to sin, "sinning machines!"

An example I once heard and think is powerful is this;

We are like the earth, the earth is void of light on its own. If you take away the sun, the earth is dark. The earth doesn't produce any light on it's own, its rather the sun that shines the light into the earth, illuminating every dark place. Just like if you remove God's light from our hearts, we are dark.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 19, 2011, 11:54:32 PM: lilitalienboi;

IMHO wonderful summation, your paragraph. Hits the nail on the head.

gk. Your deep questions about the goodness of God grieves me. It grieves me because you are struggling so mightily and I like you. I like you even though I have never met you. Your questions are actually going deep into what the character of God is. You would only be very angry at God, if you felt He was unfair or unreasonable or mean. How do you know that He is? I ask that very sincerely. You and me and none of us have seen the outcome of God's plans.

lets agree that God is making a family. Lets say in making a family Jesus is the prototype. Lets say since God gave Jesus everything He is and has, the inheritance that is awaiting the "finished products" meaning when God is done creating us into His image is UNIMAGINABLY WONDERFUL AND BEYOND WHAT CAN POSSIBLY BE IMAGINED.

We all need faith that what is currently happening and what has happened on this earth is absolutely necessary, that this is the best way for God to accomplish this task. We just have to believe that.

I could produce a bunch of quick responses and they may be just too trite for you, even if they work for me. I could say that we all, the human race, NEED to have great evil being committed so we all could know collectivelly, just how great evil can be. I think that may be very important before we become what we are to be. We may need to know how deep forgiveness and love can be to forgive and reconcile any and all atrocities ever committed, both the victim and the perpetrator.

Please also, do not forget, that in the person of Jesus, as Jesus was emptied of divine powers and was a man, that God is NOT asking us to go through anything that He Himself was not willing to experience! The scriptures testify that Jesus felt and experienced the worst of the pains and sorrows of this earth...so how could one really claim God is unfair? If He is eventually going to put full divine nature in you as in Jesus, with all that implies, and He also suffered greatly to do this, is the pain of this earth something we can blame Him or hold against Him if He knows it is necessary to get us there? What/where His is now?!

Paul said..these light and momentary sufferings are not worthy of being compared to the glory that will be revealed in us! NOT WORTHY. And how much pain did Paul suffer? More than probably anyone on this earth has, ever.

We all need faith in the goodness of God. We all need faith in our destiny. The world, the flesh and the devil conspire to rob us of our faith. Do not let that happen to you. Forget about worrying about free will and causation. worry about something much deeper. Your judging of the motives of God! That kind of thinking without faith as we live in this pain stricken world, will leave you hopeless and angry and bitter. Do not let that happen to you. Let the plans of God and faith in His goodness soften your heart, as we all need soft hearts. Please don't fall into the trap of the athiest, the athiest believes He is better than God, as He would NEVER subject the human race to what the human race has been subjected to. They feel more righteous than God. That is not a good place to be.

God is the only one that can use evil without impure motive. He is the only one who can make everyone whole and complete and completely Filled with God Himself, so God can be ALL in ALL. Pain is absolutely essential for the spiritual growth that God intends for us to experience. You MUST rise above the world, the flesh and the Deivl. You must!
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 20, 2011, 12:32:09 AM: Hi Gary,

I can understand that this is harder for some to comprehend than others. I have been very blessed to be able to accept this idea rather easily of God's sovereignty and our not having free will. But here are a few places where Ray speaks on some of the point you mentioned, maybe something will just come together and help your understanding a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/email2.htm#freewill2 -------------------------

There are MANY things that God does that we as mortals are NOT TO IMITATE! God "makes war in righteousness"--we cannot. God KILLS and brings back to life again--we cannot.

Because God has chosen to create and USE evil for a divine purpose, we have no right to judge God as BEING evil. He is not. Neither is it a SIN on God's part to make mortals WHO DO SIN. A sin is a mistake, a lack, lawlessness. God is NONE OF THESE!

Your suggestion that because God chooses to NOT DO or NOT BE certain things, that that somehow LIMITS Him is ludicrous. Listen carefully to what I am about to say: A Being (God) Who has the POWER AND ABILITY to be and do ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING HE WISHES, IS NOT LIMITED!!! The fact that God chooses to not only tell the truth, but is, in fact, the embodiment of TRUTH, and never lies, in no way diminishes God or limits God. I am surprised that you cannot see and understand this? God IS AND DOES everything that He wishes--that, my friend, is TOTAL SOVEREIGNTY!!!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4702.0.html ------------

OF COURSE we have a "choice." We, in fact, have made MILLIONS of our OWN choices. Every choice you make is YOUR CHOICE. Whose do think it is? When you decide to have apple pie for desert, who makes that choice? If you change your mind and decide that you will rather have cherry pie, who changed your mind and made the new choice? Did that choice come out of SOME ONE ELSE'S mind and mouth? Did something FORCE YOU AGAINST YOUR WILL to choose apple pie when you really really wanted blueberry pie? Well? No, of course not. You CHOSE which desert YOU preferred, did you not? Yes, of course you did. Can a "robot" choose which kind of pie it wants? No, of course not, and even if it did, it wouldn't have been based on a thousand and one emotions, circumstances, appearances, price, past memories of which pie taste the best, etc. etc., etc., etc., etc., would it? We make all our own choices and we make them from our heart. We always choose that which WE prefer to choose. God does not FORCE US AGAINST OUR WILL to choose something we do not want to choose, and that is true for choices we really don't want to make in the first place, but circumstances dictate that we must or should.

Now it is true that the final choice we made is the ONLY choice that we could have made, but so what? It is, after all, THE ONE WE WANTED TO MAKE. Can you now understand it?

Do you still think you are a robot? I hope not. It takes a lot of thought and meditation to wrap your mind around this powerful spiritual truth.

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2477.0.html ------

"Free Will" does not exist because it is a physiologicaly impossibility and the Scriptures CONDEMN any such vanity-crazed
idea. Have you ever heard of the law of "cause and effect." It means for every effect there is a CAUSE. This IS scientific. Therefore all of your thoughts and actions ARE CAUSED by something. Usually something that you are not even aware of, but being caused nonetheless. This "cause" is what is responsible for your thoughts and actions. And once something is "caused" to happen, it could not have been otherwise. God is the FIRST CAUSE of all law and matter. I use the Scriptures to prove to Christians that they have no free will, as they claim to actually believe the Scriptures. I would not use the Scriptures to prove to an athiestic evolutionary scientist that he has no free will. There I would use scientific law.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4680.0.html -------------

Of course we have a will and of course we make millions of our own choices, but the fact of the matter is, neither is FREE to think or do anything that is not first CAUSED BY SOMETHING. We "sin" because the pulls and trials, and tests, and temptations of our environment CAUSE our hearts to desire and commit sin, because our "deceitful hearts" (Jer. 17:17) ARE NOT FREE FROM CAUSALITY TO RESIST SIN. The ONLY way to resist sin is by the power of God's Holy Spirit, and if it takes the power of God's Holy Spirit to resist sin, then obviously we do not have a free will which can decide to do in on its own. It is a humbling experience to realize that God Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth is actually, and factually, and literally, more powerful than we are. NO MAN will tell God He doesn't want to repent when God tells him: "NOW is the time for you to repent, and YOU WILL REPENT"!!

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1493.0.html --------

God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones: "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa. 55:8-9).

Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer. Why then do you and most of the world have a problem with God and His operation of things, and I don't? Why do you use the "CONTRADICTION" and I don't. Is there any way to bridge this dichotomy of God's thoughts and our thoughts? Yes there is: "Let this MIND BE IN Y-O-U, which was also in Christ Jesus..." (Phil. 2:5).

Without the mind of God, we will never understand the spiritual things of God. They will ALWAYS seem like "foolishness" to the carnal mind. "But the natural man receives NOT the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are SPIRITUALLY DISCERNED" (I Cor. 2:14).

As it is absolutely Scripturally true that man has no free will, and therefore is always subject to the higther powers that be, when people begin to see this truth, they often balk at it and feel that God is unfair and that man is being judged for things that God MADE HIM DO AGAINST HIS WILL. When in reality, NOTHING COULD BE FURTHER FROM THE TRUTH!!

Most of the human race has always believed that it possesses "free will." And so as long as any man believes this falsehood, he is operating in his own little world with absolutely no grudge against God for his personal decisions. But when he begins to see that he has no free will, he then does begin to think that he has a justifiable grudge against God for MAKING HIM SIN. He was wrong when he thought that he had free will, and he is just as wrong when he thinks that the only alternative is that God MAKES HIM SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL.

I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL--MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN. God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?" Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him--He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T. And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God: "For the carnal mind is enmity [deep-seated HATRED] AGAINST GOD..." (Rom. 8:7).

It all starts with God, not with us: "We love Him [God] because He FIRST LOVED US" (I John 4:19).

God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).

And so here is the answer to your question:

BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.

AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave us such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever reach the marvelous heights of power and glory that God has in mind for him.

And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grand to you a "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.

God be with you,
Ray
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: cjwood on November 20, 2011, 01:18:33 AM: i was thinking about this the other day after reading the original post and replies. thinking about it as i was driving along the texas hill country. thinking about the most common denominator in all of the replies, and the truths they conveyed. then i thought, no matter who, what, when, where, how, why, etc... everything we do or say, wear or eat, and all the rest of it; it happens as it does because He has known all along that it would happen that way. from the beginning. even that we might wear a blue shirt on whichever day we wear a blue shirt. ya, He knew we would. our Creator is in all the details. whether we see it or not that way.

claudia
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 20, 2011, 07:46:38 AM: Quote from: gk on November 19, 2011, 05:06:12 PM
Douge6:

“Remember we are all volunteers, WE DO CHOOSE to DO our sins,

God doesn't FORCE us to sin.”
For the purple one, within my own understanding.... that's what I call : "God let it happen".

What do you think about this ?

As also in my analogy, although it's time for the dog to eat - and I've prepared his food, but when he doesn't want to eat - then I don't force feeding him... and let him choose not to eat.

Quote
God rules and is the Cause behind everything that is.

“Our choices are all caused by something or someone.

As in my understanding, no matter what I choose will be always under His LAW-cause&effect ?

Quote
“God is responsible for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.
this one is difficult for me... as it is still hard for me to have to believe that God's responsible for what human do ... :)

God doesn't need to tell Adam not to eat the fruit - because whatever it is, Adam will eat the fruit. But still God told Adam not to eat the fruit... why ? IMHO He wants human to (also) be responsible.

Quote
it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,
and yet "god doesn't force us to sin" or "make man sin".........................>?
The word "predetermined" also difficult for me to understand.

A. Is it because He knew - that human will sin, but He let it happen
B. Or is it because He deliberately made it - that human will sin

I realized both A and B doesn't matter much....
but oh well.... I'm just human who curious ..:)

in B is in Rome and A is more like in Jeremiah. (in the potter&vessel example)

For all my lovely and kind responder, thank you very much once again.

regards,
reko.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 20, 2011, 11:22:25 AM: Hi Reko,

We have always welcomed questions and your questions hit on a topic we have discussed here numerous times. I don't mind helping anyone any time with questions. But this forum is totally inadequate to explain this or any subject to someone in and of itself in bits and pieces, post by post. It primarily is for people that read the articles on the main site to come and discuss what they have read, it is that base of understanding that brings us together.

Ray has written an enormous amount of very detailed articles on the very questions you are asking. If the articles are too tedious for you then there are videos and audios. But the bottom line is if you really want to understand these truths to a greater degree you must take time to read and study, there is simply no way around that. Here are some links for you to check out.

Ray's Videos
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8227.0.html

Ray's Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html

Ray's 2008 Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,8256.0.html

Transcripts of Audios
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/board,12.0.html

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: GaryK on November 20, 2011, 12:39:42 PM: Kat from Ray:

"And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?" Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.

God plainly speaks at times and at others He speaks in mysteries. Here is a plain statement from God that explains the mystrious ones: "For My thought ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa. 55:8-9).

Now there IS the answer, yet we will not accept that answer because we don't understand that answer."[/b]

Hi Kat, thanks for the wisdom you’ve shared and leave it to Ray, as usual, to speak in absolutes and that is in the above question, or, “does god have the right?” There’s a lot to that question, much deeper thinking and much more below the surface than just reciting it over and over as if to accept it should be just based on ‘well, he said it…it must be true’.

Reciting and acceptance at face value is fine for some, but not for me.

My life has been one of absolute structure, receiving orders and implement by giving orders. No random allowed, but, should random occur you can believe there will be a page in a manual on how to deal with it. Patience may be a virtue but the only time patience was allowed was the time between the command and the carrying out of the command. No exceptions. Some people like the chain of command and find comfort in knowing it exists and where the buck stops. I’m one of them. I just don’t see it in God’s structure of things yet so Ray is right again, or:

“Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.”

To me, if he has the right then I have to know why and how and when and where. Not because I'm 'somebody', but, because it must be from structure, otherwise, things don't pull together in a harmonious way that I can understand it.

Somewhere, and at some point, there will be peace in this statement:

"For My thoughts ARE NOT your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, says the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, SO [in like manner] are My ways HIGHER than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts" (Isa. 55:8-9).

Thanks to all for the ear and the patience for my ramblings.

So be it Ray, I’ve trusted you up to now.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: adiamondintheson on November 21, 2011, 03:14:08 PM: My husband, Dennis, and I study together and he felt a need to reply to this thread with some thoughts of his own. Connie

"On the subject of 'Free Will'. There have been several ,who in one form or another have confused blaming God for sin, if there is no free will on our part to sin. However, using the “cause and effect” approach, God does grant us choices between good and bad. There can be many past events or future desires, etc. that we may know of that will cause us to choose; but whatever we choose is the cause of the following effect, be that immediate or delayed.

I believe Ray used this example in the past. He explained of a pilot flying over a river looking down to see some rafters on the river. From his vantage point he could also see a mile or so ahead, there was a very large waterfalls. If the rafters know this they will stop before they get to the waterfalls... if they don't and choose to continue, the effect can be very dangerous or disastrous to them. Hopefully, no one would go rafting down a swiftly flowing river without knowing that there is a waterfall ahead and just blindly raft along. We can liken God to the Pilot in the plane who can see the future, or see ahead, and it's up to us to study to avoid those types of situations. God tells us 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.... He also says, 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Notice that He says “we must STUDY”, present tense... or in other words we must continue to study to become more like Him and to project the fruits of the spirit which are quoted in Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is my understanding of why God does NOT give us a 'Free Will' and is also why when we first start to follow Him we have the faith of a mustard seed and are expected to build that by studying His word and in turn our faith will grow with it. Paul tells us: Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I am always open to correction if I have misunderstood, or misquoted anything in this post."

Hope this is of some help...
Dennis
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 21, 2011, 03:32:37 PM: Quote from: adiamondintheson on November 21, 2011, 03:14:08 PM
My husband, Dennis, and I study together and he felt a need to reply to this thread with some thoughts of his own. Connie

"On the subject of 'Free Will'. There have been several ,who in one form or another have confused blaming God for sin, if there is no free will on our part to sin. However, using the “cause and effect” approach, God does grant us choices between good and bad. There can be many past events or future desires, etc. that we may know of that will cause us to choose; but whatever we choose is the cause of the following effect, be that immediate or delayed.

I believe Ray used this example in the past. He explained of a pilot flying over a river looking down to see some rafters on the river. From his vantage point he could also see a mile or so ahead, there was a very large waterfalls. If the rafters know this they will stop before they get to the waterfalls... if they don't and choose to continue, the effect can be very dangerous or disastrous to them. Hopefully, no one would go rafting down a swiftly flowing river without knowing that there is a waterfall ahead and just blindly raft along. We can liken God to the Pilot in the plane who can see the future, or see ahead, and it's up to us to study to avoid those types of situations. God tells us 2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.... He also says, 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear: Notice that He says “we must STUDY”, present tense... or in other words we must continue to study to become more like Him and to project the fruits of the spirit which are quoted in Galatians 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, long-suffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is my understanding of why God does NOT give us a 'Free Will' and is also why when we first start to follow Him we have the faith of a mustard seed and are expected to build that by studying His word and in turn our faith will grow with it. Paul tells us: Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

I am always open to correction if I have misunderstood, or misquoted anything in this post."

Hope this is of some help...
Dennis
Rather than thinking that God deliberately WILL that the raft is to go blindly to the waterfall then the raft fall (potter&vessel in Rome) - I very much prefer your analogy of the pilot (potter&vessel in Jeremiah), totally agree to be honest :)

Thank you Dennis for your enlightenment.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 21, 2011, 05:23:00 PM: Hi Dennis and Connie,

I understand how there is so much that Ray has said that it can be very difficult to verify something we can remember he said, so sometimes we just put it our words as we think he said it. I have searched and can not find, nor can I remember, Ray speaking about a raft and a waterfall. So we have to be careful in contributing something to Ray, that's why I like to use copy and paste for putting direct quotes of Ray's in posts.

Here is a couple of emails that may help in this idea that God is just an observer.

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?action=printpage;topic=9822.0 -----

You are not understanding this subject and the principle behind it. You ask: "Is it man making the choices or is it God's predestination of things?" It is BOTH. Listen: God is SOVEREIGN! Man therefore has NO FREE WILL OR NO FREE CHOICE. That's it. That's all there is to it. That IS the principle. That IS the Truth. That IS what the Bible teaches. It is not a contradiction to say that "Man makes his own choices." You and millions of other just think it is a contradiction to say man makes his own choices if indeed God is sovereign and God is behind all in His creation. It is not a contradiction. It only sounds like a contradiction for those who do not believe that "God is Sovereign, and Man has no free will."

I hardly know what else to tell you. God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God. So then we don't make choices, right? NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO....WE DO MAKE CHOICES. It's just that they are CAUSED by things we can't always see. Sometimes we can see what makes our choices and some times we can't, but either way THEY ARE CAUSED. And God, not us, already knows in advance the outcome of all of those caused choices. How does He do that? He is very smart (has over a 150 IQ), plus HE IS SOVEREIGN, ALL WISE, AND ALL POWERFUL.....and don't forget LOVE.

So, does God FORCE EVIL MEN TO RAPE LITTLE GIRLS? Well, does He? Does God being Sovereign prove that God forces evil men to rape little girls? That's what evil theologians deduce from the truth of no free will. They turn the Sovereignty of God into one of the biggest evils in the universe. If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world, and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong! Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES. But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things. Evil men like raping just like evil theologians like stealing widow's social security money. God doesn't make them do it--THEY LIKE TO DO IT. They volunteer with little outside influence. God made humanity this way. He created them spiritually weak. Eve couldn't help but sin. God has a good purpose and God will straighten it all out in the end.

I guess I could just keep writing and writing and writing and one day someone will say................OHHHHHH, now I get it. Maybe today is your day. I'm pulling for ya!!!

http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3095.0 ------------

You and those who cannot see the simple of Truth concerning the Sovereignty of God use words like puppets, atomatons, and robots, as though they were DIRTY WORDS. You utterly fail to see that we are billions of times more complex than "puppets" or "atomatons." You fail to see that we LEARN. We have the ability to accumulate, process data, AND LEARN. That God puts us in the situations necessary to accomplish this is no sin.
We "train" our little children by our SUPERIOR POWER AND KNOWLEDGE, and we in fact, FORCE (if you want to use a strong word) our will upon them, by LOVINGLY TEACHING them right from wrong. And thankfully, THEY DO LEARN, and that is no sin on our part for having superior knowledge, wisdom, and power to enforce our will on theirs in this learning process. We ARE God's children.
You are fighting the Scriptures and the laws of physics. There are NO uncaused effects anywhere in the universe except in the deceived minds of carnal-minded men. Listen to my Bible Study from Sunday on our Forum. It is on "free will."

God be with you,
Ray
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 21, 2011, 05:48:56 PM: Best condensed discourse on the topic on free will that I have seen. Thanks kat for your tireless searching of Rays articles and emails. You are definitely the search engine of this site, to great effect.

Doug
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: GaryK on November 22, 2011, 12:47:01 PM: Once more:

Douge6:

“God being in control of all things,

is actually the bottom line, in the proper understanding of how events transpire in this universe.”

John Michael:

“God is responsible

for evil, for good, for the way the world is,

for the way people are, and for everything.

DougE6:

“God

has created an individual path for us all to walk in, This individual path includes sinful hearts, hearts that are at our core, hearts that we need to have revealed. Exposed. Changed. Re-created like to be like Jesus heart.

Through the process of having us make choices,
even choices that could not be chosen in any other way,
is God's way of making us into His image.”

Kat,

from Ray:

“God determined

who we were, when we would be born, where, and under what circumstances.

What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

it’s all predetermined of God. Why? Because God is sovereign,

that’s why. He is in control of everything!”

Ray:

“If God is Sovereign, then God must be EVIL, because there is so much evil in the world,

and God is in control of all things, right? Wrong, wrong, wrong!

Man makes all his own choices. Just because they are CAUSED does not mean that he does not make them. He is, in fact, CAUSED TO MAKE HIS CHOICES.

But God does not directly do this. He is responsible,

but He does not directly cause those choices.”

^^^^^^(how is this possible if God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING???)^^^^^^

Or, maybe Ray is saying God ISN"T in control of everything.

Ray:

“God made man's heart. Man did not make his own heart, or his body, or his mind, or his brain, or his will, or his hopes and dreams. They are all PREDESTINATED by the foreknowledge of God.”

Dammit.

Is God in control of ALL things………………or not????

If I have a choice to make:

Choice A?

Choice B?

Choice C?

if I choose choice C, AND, choice C is the most sinful choice I could have possibly made, has major dire consequences and supplies unending extreme unhappiness for many….I made the choice, yes, I get that part, but didn’t God cause me to make choice C over A or B, since he ‘made my heart, my mind, AND MY WILL and my hopes they were all predestined and since he’s in control of ALL things??

I understand the part of making a choice, it’s caused, cause/effect/choice(s)/choose, got it, but did ‘I’ choose ‘C’ over A or B because God wanted me to choose C over A and B?....or not? Ray said specifically ““God determined What sins we would commit, what sins we wouldn’t commit,

If he didn’t make me choose ‘C’, how so?

Either God is in control or he isn't. If he isn't in control of ALL things, then like Ray said in his free-will series, 1/2 could choose to go one way and the other half the other way and God couldn't control squat.

I'm not attempting to point a contradiction, I'm trying to understand if God is in control of ALL things.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 22, 2011, 02:22:32 PM: Hi Gray,

Well we all know that God is sovereign and that means without Him there is nothing, period. He holds everything together by the power of His Spirit (Col 1:17), so it is an impossibility for anything to happen that He is not ultimately in control of. He doesn't just allow it, it is only by Him that anything can happen in the first place, He actually has to be the ultimate cause of it all.

In this world everything is made to be just as it is by God, in His sovereignty, by the power of His Spirit and therefore He is responsible. Now then, He made us too spiritual weak to resist sin, He made us that way so He doesn't have to directly make us do this or that, we want to, we volunteer, we do it without His having to directly do anything and therefore we are accountable. But He is in control of everything, so He knows what we will do and when and indeed made it to be so.

Here is an email and a excerpt from the Letter 2 to James Kennedy, for more on this.

http://bible-truths.com/email11.htm#responsibility -----------------

[Ray Replies]

You ask how one is held "accountable" when he only did what he HAD to do? I actually do answer this in my paper, but let me relate it for you. God has NOT given man 'free' will (the ability to make UNCAUSED choices), all of man's choices are CAUSED BY SOMETHING. But the man DOES MAKE THE CHOICES!

When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.

But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!

Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.

This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.

Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.

It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.

God has developed a "ways and means" to accomplish His righteous end, plan, and purpose. And God's ways are VERY WISE -- they WORK, and they work very well! We have this absolute promise from God:

"When Thy JUDGMENTS are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world, WILL LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS" (Isa. 26:9)!!!

God be with you,

Ray

http://bible-truths.com/kennedy2.htm ------------------------------------

" ... according to the purpose of the One Who is operating all in accord with the counsel of His will." (Eph. 1:11--Concordant Literal New Testament).

The only One in the universe Who is responsible [able to respond] is God And so, God takes full responsibility for everything even though He holds man accountable for his deeds. Man is accountable for his deeds, not because he could have done otherwise, but because he thinks he is responsible through his presumed free will. Because he actually did the things he did. However, the Scriptures tell us that, "not in all" is this knowledge. Puny man really thinks he is in control of his own destiny. He really thinks he is a "god unto himself." And the Christian Church hasn't done very much to educate him out of this dilemma.
v

You see, to the theological peanut galleries of the world, if God is responsible for everything in His creation, then He couldn't be justified in burning billions in eternal Hell fire! But if they can make man responsible, then it's his own doing. But for man to be responsible, God would have had to have given him much greater powers than even our Lord ever possessed.

"Verily, verily, I am saying to you, The Son can not be doing anything of Himself ... " (John 5:19).

Are we greater than our own Lord? Answer:

" ... apart from Me you can do nothing." (Jn. 15:5).

Well, there it is. God has given man no such powers.

"It is not in man to direct his own steps" (Jer. 10:23).

I know that this verse is shocking to contemplate. It is a real ego deflator. People do not want their self-esteem brought that low. They love to talk humble pie, but they won't eat it. If God tells us we can't even "direct our own steps," pray what can we do by ourselves? The true and Scriptural answer is just as shocking:

" ... for apart from Me [Christ] you can do NOTHING" (John 15:5).

I know this truth is too high for most. Most don't really meditate on such verses. They certainly would never preach a sermon on them. They wouldn't be able to take credit for their own salvation anymore (if they actually believed these Scriptures). They would be forced to get rid of all their self worth. They couldn't feel all puffed up like the King of Assyria if they acknowledged God's total Sovereignty in their lives. They don't have to believe it now. God isn't breaking anyone's arm to accept these truths. But don't try to skillfully contradict these truths of the Scriptures, for that only makes you look silly.

I'll let you in on a secret, Dr. Kennedy. It's not God that theologians are trying to protect from responsibility so much as it is their own ego. They will cling to freewill at the expense of "burning billions" in their eternal hell fire.

If God is absolutely responsible for the salvation of all His creatures (and He absolutely is), then He is obligated to save them. He would have to save them. Their salvation would be assured. (Wouldn't that be a terrible thing for theologians and clergymen to contemplate?) In other words, since God is going to bring peace, happiness, and salvation to all of His creatures in Heaven and Earth, God is a real God. A God worthy of the name. A God to truly be GLORIFIED!
-----------------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: DougE6 on November 22, 2011, 02:51:17 PM: Hi gk

when Ray said God does not directly cause those choices, he was talking in references to the evil choices that are done. God does not tempt us DIRECTLY. James tells us that..

Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

So who/what does the actual tempting? Your hearts lusts and spiritual forces and circumstances and opportunities. The Scriptures do show us that God does send spiritual beings to do what they have been designed to do, in conforming to Gods will and plan and direction. like when God wanted Ahab killed and he asked for spirits to come up with a solution, that He intended to happen...

1Ki 22:19 And he said, Hear thou therefore the word of the LORD: I saw the LORD sitting on his throne, and all the host of heaven standing by him on his right hand and on his left.
1Ki 22:20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him.
1Ki 22:22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets. And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so.
1Ki 22:23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

So did God control this situation? Yes . Did Gods plan succeed? Yes. Did God DO the actual tempting? No.

Verse 23 gives the bottome line...The LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the LORD hath spoken evil concerning thee.

But the process still did not mean God FORCED anyone to do evil against their own wills, even the spirits volunteered...

"And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead? And one said on this manner, and another said on that manner.
1Ki 22:21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him"

So, God always gets His intention and plan done, and even if that plan includes evil choices by individuals, God does NOT directly tempt the chooser, and He had already put into place the extensive spiritual systems and forces, the hosts of heaven, that CAN be a cause (one of many) to ACT on ones individual heart, and this works because we are spiritually very weak and susceptible to these causes.

But more important than this, is the need forr us to recognize our great individual spiritual weakness, to learn to hate it, and ask/beg./ seekGod to change our weak hearts to be conformed to the heart of Jesus.

So if it is NOT in the plan of God it ain't gonna happen, and He steers everything as He can cantrol all causes, whether that is a spiritual cause, or circumstances being what they are, , and fully knowing how your heart will choose/respond.

But I do not understand why so much angst is poured over this. I myself, am much more focused on my own individual heart, my own individual heart, am I gowing spirituakly or not? Am I getting spiritually stronger or not? Who cares how God accomplishes this. I want it to be accomplished, make me spiritually strong!!
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: G. Driggs on November 22, 2011, 02:56:45 PM: Quote from: gk on November 22, 2011, 12:47:01 PM

But God does not directly do this. He is responsible,

but He does not directly cause those choices.”

^^^^^^(how is this possible if God is in CONTROL OF EVERYTHING???)^^^^^^

Or, maybe Ray is saying God ISN"T in control of everything.

How bout indirectly by creating Satan? It seems God is still in control whether or not he causes something directly or indirectly. But i dunno, just a thought.

Quote from: Kat on November 21, 2011, 05:23:00 PM

But God does not directly do this. He is responsible, but He does not directly cause those choices. Things like the Devil do such things. And who created the Devil? That's right, that One Who is Sovereign and in charge of all things.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 22, 2011, 04:53:27 PM: I didn't know you were a military man--I thought you were a musician--not that you can't be both. Either way, this is God's gig. Someways we're the audience. Someways we're the instrument. Someways we're the music. One day we may even be side-men.

There's a flip-side to this too that doesn't get considered as much as whether God causes us to 'sin' when we ourselves want to. I had hoped it would be more obvious in relating the scripture about Peter's betrayal. Peter said, "I will not" and Jesus told him "You will." Just because we set our wills to do the thing/make the choice which we know is right does not mean that we can 'will' ourselves to do it. In every way, this process of salvation is by Grace through faith...and even the faith is a gift of God. God is sovereign over our wills, no matter WHICH direction our wills want to go.

It wasn't until Peter looked back/remembered the words/will of Jesus that he understood. Jesus IS Lord. The answer is faith, and I know that religion has hollowed out that word to the point it is hard to re-grasp the significance of it. The answer to no faith is faith. The answer to insufficient faith is more faith. We're not left ignorant about how faith enters us.

Anyways, TODAY is always the day to choose, when we're attempting to do the right thing. We don't know until after the choice whether it was right or wrong, I believe. God is never surprised, but we often are. And it's not always (seldom?) a 'pleasant' surprise He has in store for us. It doesn't 'puff-up' anybody who believes the Sovereignty of God. It will humble us to death.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: rj on November 22, 2011, 07:50:50 PM: Hey gk

The way i see it, and i could be wrong, but in each of us is the lust of the flesh
the lust of the eye, and the pride of life, so how far we fall into depravity depends
on Gods plan for that lump of clay, as Ray says we are sinning machines.I hear people say
all the time, but for the grace of God there go i, but do they truly believe that it is God
that restrains that certain sin in their life. If im not the dirty old man then i know for
what ever reason God has restrained that sin in my life.

rj
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 22, 2011, 09:13:27 PM: I must be so simple minded. I struggle to see the difficulty behind a soveriegn God in which the actions of the individuals does not equal a God who forces man to do evil or sin.

Simply put; God creator of all, satan, evil, man's weak heart. Hence He takes responsibility by dying for his creation and to show that in the face of al despair, His emense love for everyone of His precious children.

Man, in his created weakened state, consisting of a weak heart incapable of doing an ounce of good and a carnal mind volunteers to sin and in doing so, becomes accountable for his sin, not having been forced to do it or tempted of God for when he does commit such acts of evil, in his heart he had fully wanted to do it. He wanted to make the evil choice all on his own, (And it was man making the choice!! No one else!) all it took was the right circumstance for the devoid of light that is mans heart, to show its true nature.

In wanting a grand family, the Lord knew this was the absolute best way to do it. To subject His precious children to evil. Oh how it breaks our Fathers heart, I'm sure. It is no easy thing to wacth loved ones struggle and suffer. For the Father knows that to be His children we must possess His characteristics. In this mortal shell we carry the characteristics of our parents in the form of DNA, genetic make up. But how does one carry characterstics, traits, of a heavenly father in which a bond exists spiritually and not physically? Well, to share such divine characterstics which our Father posess, such as love, patience, kindness, long suffering, meakness, to be like Him, we have to experience the evil that developes such Godly traits. We need the concept of evil to even comprehend what good is, and God is good! We need the darkness to know the light! We need to see and experience the act of suffering to understand what it means to be joyous, to have joy. If God could give us all these abstract qualities in the snap of a finger, I think He would, but then again can one give patience in the snap of a finger if by very nature patience requires waiting for often times, longer then desired periods? Its not liuke love, meakness, joy, patience, are like a box of chocolate you can just give to someone. Besidrs, if God gave you everything you wanted all the time but never spent time with you, would you not start to doubt His love? After all, if our earthly parents gave us things all the time but never spent time with us, we'd all start to wonder if they even loved us in the first place. Because when we suffer, and endure these things, we know God is with us, always and we feel Him near.

In closing.. I think everything is as it should be, with good logcial reason behind it. This is the absolute best way for our Father to be just that, a Father and for us to benefit thmost because remember, He is always always always acting in OUR best interest. Talk about love eh?

God bless,

Alex

P.S. That was just my humble honest two cents about all this.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: GaryK on November 23, 2011, 01:52:14 PM: Then obviously I’m over-thinking this whole matter. I like things simple, straightforward, without mystery as to the author should matters need investigating after the fact. Obviously this is not a matter that can be contained as such.

Taking Peters example:

Peter willed to not leave the lord’s side, the lord knew Peter’s will, but that wasn’t of plan and purpose. God did not want Peter to choose his own will but the will of god. What did the lord do? He created circumstances (men with the intent to kill), the cause, to produce a change in Peters will, fear, the effect. Why? To fulfill God’s purpose. Did Peter understand what had happened? He knew about fear, and he could connect the fear with the temptation to run. Did he know at that time that it was god’s will that he run? Peter, at that point, changed his will to match that of the lords will. Peter chose, but God was responsible for the outcome of Peter’s decision. Peter is accountable, God is responsible for the result of the decision, run Peter run. Peter chose, the choice, what god wanted him to choose. God makes us choose the way we do by creating the right circumstances.

That is as simple to me as drawing a line in the sand with a crooked stick.

God makes things happen how he wants them to happen, and that includes creating the circumstances to influence spiritually weakened human beings to CHOOSE as God requires them to choose. The human being chooses (accountability) but god’s purpose will be fulfilled (responsibility). That includes rapists raping. Circumstances from god beget conditions that produces maggots to prey. They may make the decision from a weak heart, but it’s a weak heart and a weak will that god produced by circumstances to fulfill his purpose. God influences mankind to make the decisions he wants and sometimes we scratch our heads wondering why the choices that we made……were made….but make absolutely no sense on a clear day, usually by hindsight.

If god picks and chooses how he wants some lives to be, that’s one thing. But the scripture says ALL mankind he watches over and directs their steps. That includes everyone and every decision to make a step to fulfill gods’ purpose. Otherwise I see holes and lies.

Look, I’ve beat this thing to death and it’s obvious, even to me now, that I am unable to think outside the rut. So be it. As pathetic as it may sound, I suppose my fist will remain in the air shaking at god until he either flattens me like a pancake, or opens my spiritual eyes. I’m reminded of Jacob wrestling with the angel. It’s not that I don’t agree with his plan, who am I?....and this isn’t about sinning, or free-will. It’s about putting the perspective back to what is what and the way I see it is that God has a plan that includes human beings sinning and causing atrocities to no end. He frames evil and cause some to be good folk and some to be evil. How else could his plan be fulfilled? How else will we learn righteousness? The way I see it, when Ray says things are pre-determined, that doesn't mean some here, some there.....it means everything to God's will.

Isaiah 2:4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 23, 2011, 04:30:40 PM: Quote from: Journey on November 23, 2011, 03:40:32 PM
Hi gk,

I think like you. Yes, it is very simple. If I believe all the scriptures and I believe there is no free will, and if God caused Jesus Christ to not sin, then God causes sinners to sin. I don't see anyway around it.

I read the statement God does not force us to sin, because by saying this would imply that we didn't want to sin in the first place, yet we are sinning machines, which is true. But in the scriptures clearly we see examples of God changing people heart to fulfill his purpose, the example you gave of Peter is one, and of Pharaoh as well, he wanted to let the Israelites go but God "hardened his heart" over and over, Pilat didn't want to crucify Jesus, but he did it because of the Jews. Paul said this:

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Is evil man killing a little child a greater evil than 10s of thousands die in a natural disaster? and God says " shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? "

So I do think God causes sinners to sin, after all God is the one that made the sinners. but God is not evil in doing this. I do take great comfort in Isaiah 55:8-9, there is so much we can't comprehend yet. But we are not left without hints, in the scriptures, and in the things made. And these hints helped me perceive and find peace and rest in our God who is great and good far exceeding my understanding of Him.

First, the book of Job, here is the hint, God gives, God takes away, then God gives it back, and He gives it back so much (infinitely) better, so much (infinitely) more:

Job 42:12 So the LORD blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning

To me that is not just the story of Job, it is the story of the whole humanity, the whole creation. We are subjected to vanity, to endure "light affliction, which is but for a moment" for the glory ALL are destined to receive:

2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

If we look at all the atrocities in the whole history collectively, it is indeed endless, insumountable, but if we look at each individual's sufferings, it is indeed framed (limited) by God, death delivers all from all evil. As Ray pointed out before, God can take a life, He can also raise the dead. In fact He only takes away to give back what would be infinitely better. The present evil serves God's great purpose. This life will pass away, whether we live to be 100 or die an infant, from eternity's point of view it is but a vapor for a little time:

Jas 4:14 For what is your life? It is even a vapour, that appeareth for a little time, and then vanisheth away.

If this life is it, is all we can hope for, then indeed this creation is most miserable, it would have been better if God never created it. But it is NOT. This is only the beginning. Think this life only as the first station of a journey that will continue for eternity. Everything doesn't end here, and there is hope and happy ending for all.

Another hint I take is from the theater. Think of God as the writer of a grand play. If I watch a play that has evil in it, I would not assume the writer himself is evil. I recognize it is a necessary part of the plot, everything leads to the grand results of the drama. And the results of our drama is: God will be all in all.

Just my 2 cents.

Absolutely gorgeous!!! Great post! You said it well!
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 23, 2011, 04:34:43 PM: To and my final humble thoughts on this subject;

Bible Cliff notes;

1. Man was created with a weak heart. (He didn't make our hearts evil, He made them weak, big difference.)
2. God created this weak heart. (Responsible)
3. When man is tempted, unless God give that man the strength to resist the temptation, man will volunteer to sin and when he does, He absolutely in his heart wanted to sin. So he really is making the choice without being forced to sin. (Accountable)
4. There is a difference between God's will (Pharoe let my people go!) and His plan to achieve that will. (Hardening pharoe's heart so that pharoe won't let his people go.)

Important to note;

Romans 9:19 "Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?"

Pharaoh resisted God's will, but he could not resist His PLAN! Ray talks about this very point. People resist God's will every day!! God willl's alot of things right now that don't seem to be anywhere near coming to fruition, but through His plan, He will accomplish His every desire. His will. No one can resist God's plan ;)

And as journey said, the ending to our drama, is that God will be all in all!

I'll have to add that screen writer comment to the one about the earth. Now i've got two great analogies! Thank you journey! :D

God bless,

Alex

P.S. Gk, i'm sorry if I offended you in my previous post, I was more thinking aloud as I read through this thread and your post happened to be the last one I read before I made my original comments. No offence was intended! :)
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: GaryK on November 23, 2011, 06:15:29 PM: Quote from: Journey on November 23, 2011, 03:40:32 PM
Hi gk,

but God is not evil in doing this[/font].

The present evil serves God's great purpose.

Another hint I take is from the theater. Think of God as the writer of a grand play. If I watch a play that has evil in it, I would not assume the writer himself is evil. I recognize it is a necessary part of the plot, everything leads to the grand results of the drama. And the results of our drama is: God will be all in all.Just my 2 cents.

Agreed.

I do not look at God as being evil, or sinful. But he uses sin and evil for his purpose(s). Ultimately, it is HIS purpose behind all sin and evil, otherwise, evil and sin is random without control............just random.

Don't want to get in much farther over my head than I already have and I'm surprised a mod hasn't put the phasers on stun. My brain feels like a STAR TREK earwig is crawling around in my head.

ps: Alex, I took no offense, think nothing more of it.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 24, 2011, 12:09:48 AM: I've been thinking of this...

Most here believe God because He is sovereign - God makes things happen how he wants them to happen - God behind of all what human do in daily activities.

In simple explanation, He already programmed each act of what every human will do in his daily activity - complete also with the exact time which when the act will be carry out. Yes, He did that because He is sovereign....

which turn-out... actually IT'S NOT sovereign at all for me.

If he already designed/programmed each move of every human, then it will be impossible to say that God also FOREKNOWN...

When Jesus said to Peter : "you will deny Me"...
is it because God made Peter to deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL NOT deny and God doesn't like it - so then God FORCE Peter to deny ?

It's strange,
God made human weak - YET He still need to "help" human to do sin ????
God said "don't eat that fruit" - YET (actually) His plan is that Eve was to eat the fruit ???
Maybe only me thinking : is this the kind of God is sovereign ????

regards.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 24, 2011, 01:47:56 AM: Quote from: odading on November 24, 2011, 12:09:48 AM

If he already designed/programmed each move of every human, then it will be impossible to say that God also FOREKNOWN...

If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?

Quote
When Jesus said to Peter : "you will deny Me"...
is it because God made Peter to deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL deny ?
Or because God forknew Peter WILL NOT deny and God doesn't like it - so then God FORCE Peter to deny ?

It's because God made Peter. He knew Peter from the beginning. He knew what Peter had to go through to become what God intends for Peter. He brought about everything necessary in that moment for Peter to experience this failure. What HAPPENED was what God intended. No force was necessary. Clearly, He foreknew. He inspired the Prophecy in the Old Testament, and prophesied again directly to Peter (and the others).

Quote
It's strange,
God made human weak - YET He still need to "help" human to do sin ????
God said "don't eat that fruit" - YET (actually) His plan is that Eve was to eat the fruit ???
Maybe only me thinking : is this the kind of God is sovereign ????

Yes, it's a strange work God is doing. It makes no sense to the carnal mind. If the end of His plan was simply punishment and reward, hell or fluffy clouds and gospel music...but it isn't. All His people have gone through, are going through, and will go through an "experience of evil". All have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. There is none righteous, no not one. We can't do anything without Him. We don't exist without Him. That's what Sovereignty means to me. It's not just another theological term to be argued about. It's absolutely the meaning of Life itself.

Odading, God is sovereign not in name only in the same way Jesus is the Savior of the world not in name only.

As Ray said quoted earlier, some believe, some don't, and some are in the middle. I hope this thread has been of help to all of us. Nobody wants to stop discussion if it's fruitful, but it's not possible for 'the forum' to convince anybody of anything, nor is it it's purpose. There's plenty here already to 'chew on', and plenty of references to Ray's teaching on the subject. God will bring us all to know Him in His time. Our faith is that ALL will proclaim with full understanding and Joy "Jesus is Lord" before He's finished His work.

I'm inclined to leave the thread open for a while longer, but we're reaching the end of what we are here to do, and able to do.

Hang in there.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Kat on November 24, 2011, 12:03:07 PM: Here is another couple sections from the series "The Myth of Free-Will Exposed." Maybe this will help a bit.

http://bible-truths.com/lake15.html -------------------------------

WHO HAS RESISTED GOD’S WILL?

So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place? The Apostle Paul got the same carnal-minded criticisms of God’s plan:

"You will say then unto me, Why does He [God] yet find fault? For who has resisted His will [Greek: boulema—‘resolve, purpose, a deliberate intention’]?" (Rom. 9:19).

This is an amazing Scripture. This Scripture shows the difference in attitude between those who understand God’s plan and will and those who do not.

After explaining to the Romans that God raised Pharaoh up for a specific purpose in God’s plan, Paul foresees the attitudes of his listeners. They will reason that if God is the One behind our actions, and we are totally incapable of doing other than what He determines we will do, then WHY DOES HE FIND FAULT WITH US WHEN WE SIN?

First it is most important that we look at and understand the word translated "will" in Rom. 9:19. It is not the usually Greek word, which is translated "will" hundreds of times in the New Testament. This Greek word boulema is used but twice in the Bible, here in Rom. 9:19 and in Acts 27:43 where it is translated "purpose."

So the question that Paul is setting up is not "…who has resisted His will?" but rather, "who has resisted His purpose [His plan, His intention]?"

To the question, "…who has resisted His will?" the answer is: EVERYONE! But when properly translated, to the question, "who has resisted His purpose?" the answer is: ABSOLUTELY NO ONE!

God has a will and God has a plan and purpose to reach that will. And no small part of reaching His desired will is to set men against His will, just as He did with Pharaoh. But no one has ever hindered God’s plan and purpose in reaching that goal and stated will. God’s will, will be done in His time.

So back to Paul’s questioners: If God causes us to do what we do, and no one ever has or ever can go against or resist that purpose of God, why does He blame us when we sin? And again, I will let Paul answer, since the question was directed to him. But you know what? Paul does not even deign to answer their question. That’s right, Paul proposes the question and then does not directly answer it. He considers the very question itself too demeaning, if not blasphemous to answer. Instead He says this:

"Nay but, O man, WHO ARE YOU that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" (Rom. 9:20-21).
v

FOREKNOWLEDGE CONTRADICTS FREE WILL

This example of the disciples forsaking Jesus is so important to this study that we are going to stay with it a little longer. Can we believe that Jesus could have told His disciples the following:

"And Jesus said unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night, but then again, maybe not all of you will be offended, seeing that all of you have a free will to will against My pronouncement…."

Or maybe this to Peter:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."

Sounds a little silly when we look at it logically doesn’t it? Yet this IS the contention of those who believe in "free will." Maybe Peter will, but then again maybe Peter won’t, NOT EVEN GOD KNOWS FOR SURE. Almost sounds like blasphemy, doesn’t it? It is blasphemy.

To argue that when God prophesies, states, and intends that someone do a particular thing, that the person is still at liberty because of his supposed free will, to not do what God has said, is absurdity on the highest level. Yet this IS what the theory of free will demands.

The fact that God has a foreknowledge of everything proves that free will is an impossibility, as true free will could alter the future and therefore God could not have an absolute and true knowledge of the future. It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does, and yet state that God knows in advance the only possible choice that a person must make.

How can one believe that if God states that a person will make choice A, that he is nonetheless still at liberty to make choice B? Let me restate that: Can God say that you WILL make choice A, but you can make choice B?

Can God say that such and such, WILL happen but that it doesn’t need to happen? The disciples WILL forsake and deny Christ, but they have a free choice NOT to forsake and deny Him? God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way? Am I going too fast for anyone?

Not only does the theory of free will demand that man be able to think uncaused thoughts and performed uncaused tasks, but that he can in fact, do these uncaused things contrary to and in opposition to God’s preordained stated plan and purpose. He must be blind indeed, who cannot or will not see that such a haughty presumption lifts such an one’s ego to that of a veritable "god’ in his own heart and mind.
---------------------------------------------------------

mercy, peace and love
Kat
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 24, 2011, 02:58:01 PM: Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 24, 2011, 01:47:56 AM
If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?
when I give a food to my cat ---> this in my understanding that "I cause something to happen". Before the cat do anything to his food, I already know that the cat won't eat ---> this in my understanding that "I foreknown".

So, when I bind the cat's mouth first - then I give a food to my cat ---> and I say to my friend : "look... although I give a food to this cat, he won't eat it" .... it's NOT foreknown in my understanding ... :)

When Jesus tell "Peter will deny" :
it's not God made Peter to deny first - then God make a danger situation for Peter.
But God know that His LAW-cause&effect will make a danger situation first, then before Peter commit his act of denial - God foreknown that Peter will deny.
And for me this is sooo sovereign ... :)

Quote
We can't do anything without Him. We don't exist without Him. That's what Sovereignty means to me.
I agree with this.

Each moment in my life, past-present-future - I do believe that there is ONE thing I'm very sure about God sovereignty... His Grace of life.

I won't be able to type this now - if God's WILL that I die now instantly.
The things I have - the plan to do something for tomorrow, etc - will be NOTHING without His Grace of life.

His Grace IS NOT : I see (because He loves me), other blind (because He loves him not) - I have (because He loves me), other have not (because He loves him not), it's not like that for me ---> as even in my deep trouble - still I think I should be grateful for His Love : the grace of life.

So the question is, how come mr.X can have the same believe of that kind Sovereignty in purple while at the same time mr.X don't believe that God personally infiltrate each human of their daily activities in exact second ?

Quote
I'm inclined to leave the thread open for a while longer, but we're reaching the end of what we are here to do, and able to do.
Dave, I would like to thank you very much for your time, enlightenment, patience, respond to me and the space you gave in this forum.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: odading on November 24, 2011, 04:01:12 PM: Quote from: Kat on November 24, 2011, 12:03:07 PM
So God has mercy upon whom He will have mercy and whom He wills, He hardens. But when I tell people that this is how God operates, they find fault with it. They say that isn’t fair. They say we are mere puppets if this is the way God operates. How can God blame and punish people for doing what God Himself caused them to do in the first place?
Dear Kat,

I still haven't got an answer about the potter&vessel in Jeremiah.

At one time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will pluck up and break down and destroy it; And if [the people of] that nation concerning which I have spoken turn from their evil, I will relent and reverse My decision concerning the evil that I thought to do to them.

At another time I will suddenly speak concerning a nation or kingdom, that I will build up and plant it; And if they do evil in My sight, obeying not My voice, then I will regret and reverse My decision concerning the good with which I said I would benefit them.

Now therefore say to the men of Judah and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, Thus says the Lord: Behold, I am shaping evil against you and devising a plan against you. Return now each one from his evil way; reform your [accustomed] ways and make your [individual] actions good and right.

But they will say, That is in vain! For we will walk after our own devices, and we will each do as the stubbornness of his own evil heart dictates.

Do you believe and sure - all the Christian freewiller (even after they heard the words in purple) have said and/or will say something like the verse above in red ?

Quote
Can we believe that Jesus could have told Peter the following:

"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, but then again, maybe you won’t deny Me three times, seeing that you have a free will that does not need to deny Me even once. It doesn’t depend on what I say, or circumstances brought about by My Father, or what God declares, but rather on your own free will."
Well I don't ... :)

the same that I don;t believe Jesus could have told Peter the following:
"And Jesus said unto him [Peter] Verily I say unto you, That this day, even in this night, before the cock crow twice, thou shall deny me thrice, because God made you to say that regardless you are under oppression or not. ;D

or :
because God made you are under oppression, then God will put fear on you - God made you are afraid to go to jail - THEN finally God made you deny and then God will make you cry, it's not you who cry faithfully - it's just God who made you cry

but for me it is possible :
because you'll be under oppression, you are afraid that you're going to jail - so you will deny me. ;D

Quote
It is blasphemy.
Is the orange one which still possible for me - blasphemy ??

Quote
It is idiocy to state that man has a free will that is not made or caused to do as it does
Dear Kat, below is my first post - try to explain that even freewiller has a possibility to realize everything he does will be subjected to His LAW-cause&effect :

Quote
So freewill is always under His LAW-cause&effect.
"god" in people who decided what to do and it will be always subjected to His LAW-cause&effect
But now I know, I can not call that is a freewill. It's just a ~~free~~ will....

and if God's WILL to make others to think it's idiocy then it will be :)

Quote
God knows in advance that something WILL be a certain way, and yet it doesn’t have to be that way?
God said that in Jeremiah.

Finally, is it important to change mind about freewill ?
How important ? and Why ?

Thank you very much, Kat.
For your patience, kind, time, and responds.

regards,
odading.
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: lilitalienboi16 on November 24, 2011, 06:27:02 PM: Quote from: odading on November 24, 2011, 02:58:01 PM
Quote from: Dave in Tenn on November 24, 2011, 01:47:56 AM
If YOU caused something to happen, wouldn't YOU know in advance that it would?
when I give a food to my cat ---> this in my understanding that "I cause something to happen". Before the cat do anything to his food, I already know that the cat won't eat ---> this in my understanding that "I foreknown".

That is wrong, you can give your cat the food but if he doesn't smell or see it, it won't cause him to want to eat it. Your cats desire to want to eat food is firstly and foremost caused by his apatite in which his desire to eat certain foods is controlled by sophisticated inner biological workings that you as a human have no control over yet which God created and has full control over. Furthermore, it is possible that if your cat were hungry enough, that despite the fact of him not liking the cat food (which I'm assuming is the case based on your example and conclusion.) that he would still eat it, so as a human, you foreknew nothing and were in fact wrong.

Quote

So, when I bind the cat's mouth first - then I give a food to my cat ---> and I say to my friend : "look... although I give a food to this cat, he won't eat it" .... it's NOT foreknown in my understanding ... :)

How is it not foreknown he won't eat it? You bound his mouth, of course he can't eat it. That is DEFINITELY foreknown.

You're not making sense, sorry to be blunt but I've been patient in just not saying anything directly to you because you are very contradictive but... sorry, You seem to be ignoring everything everyone is telling you.

Yes it's foreknown that your cat won't eat his food if you bind his mouth. You are forcing him not to be able to eat. That is a CAUSE, YOUR FORCE (of perhaps the use of a rope to tie his mouth shut), which provents him from eating.You know he won't eat before you even place the food infront of him because his mouth is bound shut. You could even ask your friend if the cat will eat the food and your friend will say; "No he won't because you tied his mouth shut." Is your friend a magician now too?

All that aside, it is dangerous to use humanly interactions as a comparison to God and His ways, not saying it can't be done, but in your case, your example is flawed, at least in your conclusion.

>.>
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Revilonivek on November 24, 2011, 07:11:19 PM: From all the conversations about will, IT does show how well God knows humans..extremely well. Too well that he knows what we'll do or react or what it takes to accomplish in certain situations and so on. HE knows his humans. After all he did create us... He should know his creations. How they function, through and through.

You made an excellent point about what God said to Jeremiah...IT does indicate that we do have a role to play when it comes to God's own law, cause and effect. He is hinting that we do have a power to change from the original path of cause and effect path. We can all accept that God is the ultimate causer of everything we experience. IT's our heart that needs to learn to do what's good and morally right and ignore the carnally minded heart that humans possess before knowing God. I feel that understanding and knowing God is essential to our spiritual development... and everything, such as this.. would make sense... its' just a matter of clicking.

My quest is to know God.. It still hasn't clicked for me yet.. Ive read about what he's done. It is just not enough to really know God. Does anyone know who God is? Be nice if anyone does. Everyone can say about what he's done. That's easy. But, really... WHO IS GOD. How do we envision him? How do we understand God as God? Is he pure energy that is required by everything to function and nothing without it can function? What if Energy is God? or maybe he is even greater than Energy.. I cannot fathom who God is.. I cannot say I know God unless I can understand God.... WHO is God? I just wish everything would just make sense.... and CLICK.... It just hasn't yet.. it's soo frustrating... anyway.. just my 0.02 cents :) sorry about the rambling.....

Kind regards,

Denise
Title: Re: is it important to change mind about freewill ?
Post by: Dave in Tenn on November 25, 2011, 03:07:18 AM: Cause and effect are always in play and sovereign God is the ultimate 'causer/placer' of everything.

The sovereignty of God is sure. It seems to me to make absolutely no difference whether God's 'causing' a particular act is 6 billion years old, two-thousand years old, or 30 seconds old. The 'effect' is sure. I don't believe anybody has access to that information in all instances. It's not against the forum rules to persist in disagreement with statements made by members of the forum.

But this does not mean that God is 'winging it' or making it up as he goes along. The foreknowledge of God makes it impossible for anything to happen differently than the way He knew it would. He knows the END FROM the BEGINNING. He knows things from the Foundation of the world. Of course the choices of each man (caused and foreknown) become part of the 'cause' to produce the 'effect' in the future from that point. This doesn't dillute the will of God, but amplify it.

You may not believe that God is choosing one individual over another at any moment, but Scripture is full of examples where He does. It's lip-service to say God is Sovereign yet 'scold Him' for doing what He does.

So I see you somewhere 'in the middle'. And if you haven't been just jerking us around, you've learned a few things, hopefully. To get back to your original question: It's helpful to understand that free-will doesn't exist because will is not free. It's 'worship in Spirit and in Truth' to recognize what is true about the sovereignty of God. It is impossible to learn what is true about the Sovereignty of God without much scriptural exposure--and that takes time, and more than time. It is not necessary for you to 'imagine' the way God causes the same as any other person may 'imagine' it, providing you don't break what IS true and discernable. You have as much a right to be wrong as any other imagineer--including me. :D

Thanks also for your patience. I think we've gone as far as we can and maybe farther than we ought.