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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Bill on April 11, 2007, 02:59:54 PM
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Do you believe Christ sweat blood?
(Luk 22:44 KJV) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground [GL. gē - Sometimes translated as earth].
It seems to me that his sweat was as if it was blood but not actually blood.
On a more important note what does Luk 22:44 mean spiritually. Interestingly sweat is only found in the bible 3 times.
(Gen 3:19 KJV) In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
(Eze 44:18 KJV) They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.
(Luk 22:44 KJV) And being in an agony he prayed more earnestly: and his sweat was as it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground.
Thanks and God Bless
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Hi Bill,
I find it interesting that this description is only found in (Doctor) Luke's Gospel, there is a medical term for this condition, it is called hermatidrosis;
he·ma·ti·dro·sis (hm-t-drss, hm-)
n.
The excretion of blood or blood pigment in the sweat. Also called hemidrosis1.
(American Heritage Stedman's Medical Dictionary)
hematidrosis /he·ma·tid·ro·sis/ (he?mah-tid-ro´sis) excretion of bloody sweat.
(Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers)
From Askipedia;
Is it possible to sweat blood?
Yes it is possible to sweat blood although it is very rare. The condition is called hermatidrosis. Dr Frederick Zugibe explains that there are many blood vessels around out sweat glands, they form a sort of net surrounding the gland. If these vessels are put under great stress the vessels constrict. When they release from this pressure they expand until they rupture. The blood molecules spread out and since they are so close the sweat gland they enter it. When the person sweats the sweat washes the blood our of the sweat gland and onto the skin. The sweat is not only made up of blood, but it has some blood in it, enough to notice that it is red.
Typically high levels of stress on a person will cause the stress on the blood vessels, anxiety and other aliments will not only force these blood vessels to constrict, but they will often make the person sweat. When the stress or anxiety leaves the person, the blood gets into the sweat gland.
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hello Bill
You ask : Do you believe Christ sweat blood?
Matthew 26 : 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and He told His disciples, Sit down here while I go over yonder to pray. 37. And taking with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, He began to show grief and distress of mind and was deeply depressed. 38. Then He said to them, My soul is very sad and deeply grieved, so that I am almost dying of sorrow..
I believe Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. Also this sweat that was carrying His blood fulfills the sweat noted by God in Genesis 3 : 19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return.
Christ has fulfilled this through sweat sheding blood that finally became His blood outpoured on His cross on Calvery. Jesus is truly the fulfilment of the Scriptures and He alone is the first fruites of this fulfilment!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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This indicates to me that our dear Jesus endured much through shedding his blood, sweat and tears, and this was no easy task to say the least.
Mathew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
1 John 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
In His Love, Lisa
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Hi Joe,
Thanks for the response.
I find it interesting that this description is only found in (Doctor) Luke's Gospel, there is a medical term for this condition, it is called hermatidrosis;[/color]
I to found this interesting. Why is this account is only in Luke? Where is the witness to this event? Unless there is a deeper spirtual meaning to it.
Thanks again joe.
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Hello Bill
You ask : Do you believe Christ sweat blood?
Matthew 26 : 36 Then Jesus went with them to a place called Gethsemane, and He told His disciples, Sit down here while I go over yonder to pray. 37. And taking with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, He began to show grief and distress of mind and was deeply depressed. 38. Then He said to them, My soul is very sad and deeply grieved, so that I am almost dying of sorrow..
I believe Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said. Also this sweat that was carrying His blood fulfills the sweat noted by God in Genesis 3 : 19 In the sweat of your face shall you eat bread until you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you shall return.
Christ has fulfilled this through sweat sheding blood that finally became His blood outpoured on His cross on Calvery. Jesus is truly the fulfilment of the Scriptures and He alone is the first fruites of this fulfilment!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Hi Arcturus,
I see what you are saying and I like how you connect Gen3:19 to Luke.
I am not sure if it really matters wheather he actually sweated Blood or not but as Ray always says we have to pay attention to every word. So if Christ did actually sweat blood why does it say "as it where" which in greek is "hōsei" which is also translated to "like" So his sweat was like blood.
Just curious to others thoughts/
God Bless
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Hi Bill
Well it was not blood per se like in blood that is released by nails piercing the flesh. It was as blood because it was sweat mingled with blood released below the surface under the skin that seeped through the pores of the skin.
How many times do we suffer under the surface, while keeping a straight face and we are torn up inside by knives of anguish and pain or memories of abuse and suffering?
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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This is just a thought…
In this same account from the Gospel of Luke, Jesus continually warns the disciples to pray so that they will not “fall into temptation.”
Luke 22:40
On reaching the place, he said to them, "Pray that you will not fall into temptation."
Luke 22:46
"Why are you sleeping?" he asked them. "Get up and pray so that you will not fall into temptation."
Perhaps this account is an intimate look at how our Savior faced the greatest temptation that any man has ever known…
Hebrews 4:15
15: For we have not a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.
So he prays…
Luke 22:42
42: "Father, if thou art willing, remove this cup from me; nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."
Completely innocent, without sin… yet still facing the shameful death of the cross…
So He resists the greatest temptation the world has ever know…
Hebrews 12:3-4
3: Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted.
4: In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood.
He resisted to the point of shedding blood...
Luke 22:44
44And (G)being in agony He was praying very fervently; and His sweat became like drops of blood, falling down upon the ground.
Again, just a thought.
God’s Peace.
Josh
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Great thoughts Josh!
Thank you for the scriptures. I agree.
I also do not think anyone has known or will know what He endured for us until He returns! I personally believe that He endured the sum total of all human suffering down through the ages!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Earliest reliable manuscripts do not contain these passages in the Third Gospel. Not that it didn't happen per se, just that it was likely not written into the Gospel until much, much, much later.
Peace
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Earliest reliable manuscripts do not contain these passages in the Third Gospel. Not that it didn't happen per se, just that it was likely not written into the Gospel until much, much, much later.
Peace
Hi Pax,
I am assuming you are referring to Luk 22:44?
How do you come to this conclusion?
Thanks
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It is incredible how sometimes things weave together through different threads to underline certain truths, I am sure we all have unique perspectives in regard to this phenomena, for me this verse/thread is underlining the humanity of Jesus and the intensity of His suffering, both mental and physical.
In the thread http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=4045.0 (Brother Job) I quoted much of Job 10, in verse 4 we have this;
Job 10:4 Hast thou eyes of flesh? or seest thou as man seeth?
Here I believe we have Job's question (and everyone's question at some time or other) does the Lord really know what we are going through? Does God truly understand our trials, pain, frustration, fear, despair, etc.?
Talk about stress;
A thorough search of the medical literature demonstrates that such a condition, while admittedly rare, does occur in humans. Commonly referred to as hematidrosis or hemohidrosis (Allen, 1967, pp. 745-747), this condition results in the excretion of blood or blood pigment in the sweat. Under conditions of great emotional stress, tiny capillaries in the sweat glands can rupture (Lumpkin, 1978), thus mixing blood with perspiration. This condition has been reported in extreme instances of stress (see Sutton, 1956, pp. 1393-1394). During the waning years of the twentieth century, 76 cases of hematidrosis were studied and classified into categories according to causative factors: “Acute fear and intense mental contemplation were found to be the most frequent inciting causes” (Holoubek and Holoubek, 1996). While the extent of blood loss generally is minimal, hematidrosis also results in the skin becoming extremely tender and fragile (Barbet, 1953, pp. 74-75; Lumpkin, 1978), which would have made Christ’s pending physical insults even more painful.
His Peace to you,
Joe
PS You are welcome Bill! ;)
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Yes. I am sorry for my brief (read: incomplete) note. I can look up the references if you wish, but my recollection is that the sweating of blood (bleeding of sweat?) was not recorded earlier than the Latin Vulgate. Since many translations used the Vulgate as their primary source, the entries continued.
Earlier reliable texts do not contain this reference.
Again, I am not at home (where my library is) and this is all from recollection from classes long ago and far away.
Peace
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...But since I am at work, here is a citation for those of you who want more on this condition...
Peace
Title: Blood, sweat and fear - ''A classification of hematidrosis''
Author(s): Holoubek JE, Holoubek AB
Source: JOURNAL OF MEDICINE 27 (3-4): 115-133 1996
Document Type: Review
Language: English
Cited References: 53 Times Cited: 0
Abstract: In order to verify the accuracy of the commonly used statement, ''I sweat blood,'' a survey of the literature in the subject of hematidrosis was made. Seventy-six cases were studied and classified into categories according to the causative factor. These were, component of systemic disease, vicarious menstruation, excessive exertion, psychogenic, and unknown. The psychogenic were further subdivided into those that occurred only one time, those that recurred and the stigmatics. Acute fear and intense mental contemplation were found to be the most frequent inciting causes. Hematidrosis is an extremely rare clinical phenomenon with only few instances reported to have occurred within the twentieth century.
Author Keywords: bloody sweat; hematidrosis; menstruation; stigmata; vicarious
Addresses: LOUISIANA STATE UNIV, SCH MED, SHREVEPORT, LA USA
Publisher: P J D PUBLICATIONS LTD, PO BOX 966, WESTBURY, NY 11590
Subject Category: Medicine, Research & Experimental
IDS Number: VZ030
ISSN: 0025-7850
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I can look up the references if you wish, but my recollection is that the sweating of blood (bleeding of sweat?) was not recorded earlier than the Latin Vulgate. Since many translations used the Vulgate as their primary source, the entries continued.
Hi Pax,
If you would not mind I would be interested in hearing more one this. When you have the time of course.
If it is true that you feel it was added and is not scripture why do you feel it was added?
Thanks
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Hello,
This is tough one. At first, it seem that Jesus did have literal blood (sweat) like some people had but rare. Yet, I see Luke 22:44, it didn't say, "his sweat was great drops of blood falling down to the ground.", but it did say, "his sweat was AS [Gk: LIKE] it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." I found the same Greek word for 'like' in several verses, "like a dove", "like of fire", "white like wool", etc. These verses not literal things, do they? Now, the same Greek word for "his sweat like it were great drops of blood..." are literal? For me, I see the verses, it doesn't say literal thing, but it does something to know what it mean. Of course, Luke was doctor, but he also know the mental of stressful, fearful, etc. Luke wrote, "like...drops of blood" meaning that Jesus was deeply stressfulness, fearfulness, painfulness just like sweat drops of blood.
I am not here to tell you that I am right. But all I see this verse said "Like". Maybe I could be wrong. Maybe it was literal blood. If is literal, then should not write "like". Know what I mean?
Maybe me (http://bestsmileys.com/talking/1.gif). ;D
Brett
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From the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer the word AS-IF is found in 20 different verses in the NT. A brief study shows the significance is not one that can be waved aside either literally or figuratively. This AS-IF also shows up in Luke 22 : 44 ..and becoming in struggle more-earnestly he prayed and became the sweat of-him AS-IF clots of blood descending on the earth.
Acts 2 : 3 And these appeared unto them cloven tongues AS-IF of fire and it sat upon each of them.
AS-IF here does not mean that there appeared unto them cloven tongues of fire that were not there. They were there in the AS-IF realm.
Acts 6 : 15 And all that sat in the council, looking steadfastly on him, saw his face of-him AS-IF it had been the face of an angel.
AS-IF does not mean that he became an angel it means that all saw his face AS-IF it had been the face of an angel.
The sweat that fell as if great drops of blood does not mean that there was no blood. It means there was blood in the AS-IF realm. This AS-IF realm I believe is the one that is for those who have ears and those who have eyes.
If we discount this word AS-IF, then it will drag out the deeper meanings and presence of where it appears elsewhere in the Scriptures. To do that would be AS-IF taking out our eyes that see or as the dragon Rev 12 : 4 His tail swept across the sky and dragged down a third of the stars and flung them to the earth.
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Brett,
You mention "like a dove", "like of fire" and "white like wool". This all represents baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Likewise, so does "sweat like it were great drops of blood". So, maybe the point being made is to demonstrate just how intense TRUE BAPTISM is.
Just my observation ~
Peace in Christ, Lisa
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Hello,
This is tough one. At first, it seem that Jesus did have literal blood (sweat) like some people had but rare. Yet, I see Luke 22:44, it didn't say, "his sweat was great drops of blood falling down to the ground.", but it did say, "his sweat was AS [Gk: LIKE] it were great drops of blood falling down to the ground." I found the same Greek word for 'like' in several verses, "like a dove", "like of fire", "white like wool", etc. These verses not literal things, do they? Now, the same Greek word for "his sweat like it were great drops of blood..." are literal? For me, I see the verses, it doesn't say literal thing, but it does something to know what it mean. Of course, Luke was doctor, but he also know the mental of stressful, fearful, etc. Luke wrote, "like...drops of blood" meaning that Jesus was deeply stressfulness, fearfulness, painfulness just like sweat drops of blood.
I am not here to tell you that I am right. But all I see this verse said "Like". Maybe I could be wrong. Maybe it was literal blood. If is literal, then should not write "like". Know what I mean?
Maybe me (http://bestsmileys.com/talking/1.gif). ;D
Brett
Brett,
I think I am seeing it the same way.
Thank you
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Luke 22:44 and, coming to be in an agony, more intensely, was he praying; and his perspiration became, as if great drops of blood, falling upon the ground.
In my opinion, it is the first part of this verse that brings some understanding.
He was in agony, because He knew what He was going to endure. Not only was He aware of this means of execution, but as God of the OT He had first hand knowledge of it.
Now some might would think that as God in flesh, He could just spiritually raise above this suffering on the cross. But this strongly indicates he could not, He was in 'agony' over what He was physically going to endure. He was going to feel the pain and suffer to the extent that He was going to die from it, just like any man would. Nobody could say, sure He died but He was God, so it was different.
So I am looking at how this shows His distress and the humanity of our Lord, at this grave point in His soon to end life on earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Kat,
My dear sister you have outlined it perfectly. Jesus was a MAN, a perfect man but still a man.
Who could possibly know what agony he experienced, for we can only imagine but are yet clueless because surely our senses have been numbed due the sin in us. The same sin that he was without.
It matters little if Jesus while praying sweated blood or sweat tainted with blood or if the only used it figuratively, but as others have mentioned and Joe shown, this phenonoman is not unknown.
The real question is whether or not the understanding of this passage (luke 22:44) distracts from the real message and Kat you pointed out the focul point perfectly. "He was in agony, because He knew what He was going to endure. "
Whether or not his sweat contained blood is irelevant to the true message. Perhaps his agony was also fueled by the knowlede that even with his ministry and the years spent teaching his disciples, they still didn't get it and 2000 years later, there are only a few more that do. (not saying that I am one of them) :)
Thanks Kat :)
Your brother in Christ,
Darren
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Luke 22:44 and, coming to be in an agony, more intensely, was he praying; and his perspiration became, as if great drops of blood, falling upon the ground.
In my opinion, it is the first part of this verse that brings some understanding.
He was in agony, because He knew what He was going to endure. Not only was He aware of this means of execution, but as God of the OT He had first hand knowledge of it.
Now some might would think that as God in flesh, He could just spiritually raise above this suffering on the cross. But this strongly indicates he could not, He was in 'agony' over what He was physically going to endure. He was going to feel the pain and suffer to the extent that He was going to die from it, just like any man would. Nobody could say, sure He died but He was God, so it was different.
So I am looking at how this shows His distress and the humanity of our Lord, at this grave point in His soon to end life on earth.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I agree with what you have said and I think most of Christianity would also agree. But one thing I have learned from reading much of Rays work is that there is usually multiple layers to what is written. Most people will just look at what is physically written and over look the spiritual side. This is something I have and still am struggling with, which is seeing the deeper meaning in some things in the scriptures. So if we try to look at this at a deep spiritual level is there a deeper meaning to Luke 22:44. To be honest I do not know and perhaps I am try to dig to deep where there is not anything there.
God Bless
Bill
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Hi Bill,
I think you are right about there being "multiple layers" to the scripture. Many only can see the physical now, but when your eyes are opened you do begin to see beyond the physical to the spiritual. And even with the understanding of the spiritual, I think you continue to see it to a deeper and deeper degree.
I will say I am still at the spiritual level where I have to be shown most all of these spiritual truths.
It's like reading Ray articles, the first time I read it I gain a lot I didn't know, the next time I see things I didn't see the first time, and this continues with every reading.
But even when shown these profound truths most still do not see it, so I feel quite blessed.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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From the Interlinear Scripture Analyzer the word AS-IF is found in 20 different verses in the NT.
Hi Arcturus,
Yes, I see 'as if', too. But I do not understand what is mean 'as if'? Is that mean, 'whether' or 'either'? Maybe I said 'Like' could be not right :-\.
Thank you,
Brett
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Hello Brett
I think that AS-IF means as you say..."like" and my post simply was to add to what you observed too!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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It is my belief that our Lord did experience an exteme amount of stress that none of us can even begin to imagine.
In an earlier response I named the medical term for this;
hematidrosis /he·ma·tid·ro·sis/ (he?mah-tid-ro´sis) excretion of bloody sweat. (Dorland's Medical Dictionary for Health Consumers)
We have learned that virtually everything in scripture whether a literal event or prophetic is in fact a parable of a deeper spiritual truth, I am not going to expound on my feeling or even speculate as to what this deeper truth might be but I did want to throw some other points and scriptures into the mix.
1Jn 5:6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.
What exactly is sweat? It is primarily water and salt, what is one of the uses of salt in scripture, what is salt's place in regard to sacrifice?
Lev 2:13 And every oblation of thy meat offering shalt thou season with salt; neither shalt thou suffer the salt of the covenant of thy God to be lacking from thy meat offering: with all thine offerings thou shalt offer salt.
Did our Lord salt the fulfilment of all sacrifices with the salt of His own Body?
Another interesting bit;
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book and all the people,
Joh 19:29 Now there was set a vessel full of vinegar: and they filled a sponge with vinegar and put it upon hyssop and put it to his mouth.
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side and forthwith came there out blood and water.
Is there another scripture that testifies to John 19:34?
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Hi Joe,
Good post. Sometimes I wonder what it mean in John 19:34 "...spear pierced his side and forthwith came there out blood and water." (sorry I couldn't find another scripture testifies in John 19:34), is that something about what kind of blood look alike? Like thin blood came from heart and other thick blood (with out water) came from somewhere in body?
Or other: is that mean only Jesus had water and blood or both Him and all humans too?
I'm just learning and wondering. Thanks for brought up, Joe :).
Brett
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Hello Brett
I think that AS-IF means as you say..."like" and my post simply was to add to what you observed too!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
Arcturus, Thank you ;).
Brett :D
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Hello Joe
Thank you for the edifying scriptures and thoughts.
1 Cor 11 : 25 Similarly when supper was ended, He took the cup also, saying, This cup is the new covenant, ratified and established in MY BLOOD. do this as often as you drink it, to call Me affectionately to remembrance.
John 7 : 38 He who believes in Me, who cleaves to and trusts in and relies on Me, as the Scripture has said, From his innermost being shall flow continuously, springs and rivers of living water.
These may have some bearing on John 19 : 34. In fact I think the whole Bible is the witness to that scripture especially Revelations!
My pleasure Brett!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I can look up the references if you wish, but my recollection is that the sweating of blood (bleeding of sweat?) was not recorded earlier than the Latin Vulgate. Since many translations used the Vulgate as their primary source, the entries continued.
Hi Pax,
If you would not mind I would be interested in hearing more one this. When you have the time of course.
If it is true that you feel it was added and is not scripture why do you feel it was added?
Thanks
Well, Bill here’s my two cents on Lk 22:43-44 – remember, you asked for it!
OK, Jesus is on the Mount of Olives the night he was to be arrested and betrayed (of course we know that the Gospels disagree on which night of the week this was). Jesus enlists his disciples to “pray, lest you enter into temptation” which is a provocative statement in its own context. Jesus gets on His knees and prays, “Father, if it be Your will…” (anyone want to kick around the non-existence of the Trinity?).
Next comes an event, recorded only in the Third Gospel, in which Jesus is to have “bloody sweat.” This account is in many early manuscripts, but more on that in a bit. This thread has already explored the comparative “Like/As” and that needs no reinforcement here. However, you asked you asked for a more thorough examination of the disputed passage.
When comparing ancient texts, especially when trying to figure out which manuscript is the purest manuscript, many attributes need to be considered. Chief among them is “shortest wins the day.” That is to say that the most conservative telling of a tale often enjoys a slight edge over the longer version.
Let’s make up an example that may clarify this point. Let’s recite the Pledge of Allegiance. “… one nation, under God, indivisible…” is published and re-published and is an accepted phrase within this oath. Perhaps an archivist looks in the Congressional Record and finds the earliest authorized account to date – yet this account has only the phrase “…one nation, indivisible…” Hmm…
We have three options at this point: 1) “Under God” was added at some later time to assert some agenda, 2) There could perhaps be an undiscovered earliest account which contains “under God,” which leads to 3) Somebody forgot to write “under God” in this earliest account when copying it. Like I said, in textual criticism option one holds the lead as the most likely explanation.
So, if you are still reading this, let’s get back to our topic…
When we look at this section of the Third Gospel, there are great and accepted manuscripts in which the majorities contain and some others omit the “sweaty blood” reference. While the majority manuscripts speak loud, the manuscripts which do not contain the “sweaty blood” account are older and just as authentic. The only thing we can reasonably state is that a corruption of the original text occurred – we just cannot be sure which the corrupted Scripture is. We can tell when the corruption occurred, however.
If the verses in question were added later, it must have occurred in the middle of the second century (the “100’s” if you will). We know this because the verses are attested by such early fathers as Justin, Irenaeus, and other Latin and Syriac writings. If these verses are original, they would have been deleted in roughly the same time period. These verses are not found in Clement and are missing from the Alexandrian manuscripts which are considered to be the writings of earlier traditions.
There is a considerable body of writings which debate the style and word choices of the disputed passage. While they are elegant arguments, they are ultimately inconclusive.
So, from a literary criticism perspective, all we can conclude is that a corruption occurred. We just cannot be precise in determining which the corruption is. But there is a theological spin in action here which may prove interesting when considering why the corruption took place.
One writer disputes 43-4 in a contextual schema – the writer of the Third Gospel has gone to great lengths to present a condemned Jesus who is calm, in control, and confident of the Father’s Will. Jesus is the strong, silent type right up to the end. Now here’s where it gets interesting….
We know that Mark is the earliest written Gospel. Many believe it is reasonable that Luke knew of Mark’s writing and used it as a source for his own Gospel. Comparing Mark’s and Luke accounts of the Passion then becomes instructive. Mark paints a very different picture of the condemned Jesus. Luke, to produce this stalwart Jesus had to leave out big chunks of Mark’s account to keep Jesus’ stoicism intact – except for 22:43-44! It is the only place in Luke where Jesus is in such visible agony.
A verse-by-verse comparison of Luke 22 and Mark 14 shows too many contrasts to go into here – look them up and see for yourself. Mark has Jesus in agony and despair while Luke (except for 22:43-44) has a confident Jesus headed for a fulfillment of God’s Will.
Nowhere is this more pronounced than the accounts of the crucifixion. Mark’s walk to Golgotha is silent; the disciples have fled, and even the faithful women look on from a distance. Jesus is mocked by the crowd – a man who is beaten, even forsaken by God Almighty! Mark’s Christology, of course, gave reason for this. Luke, in contrast has a Jesus who is far from silent. Here is a Jesus who makes confident claims and pronouncements. He tells women not to weep for Him – He knows what He must do. On the cross, He remains calm and forgiving. He does not cry out “Why have You left me behind?” to His God as He does in Mark; instead, He calls upon His Father to forgive His executioners for they don’t know what they’re doing.
Nowhere else in Luke’s two-volume series do we find any reference to Jesus’ agony -- only in these two disputed verses. Although it doesn’t alter my theology at all, I am of the mind that those verses were added later. Many Bible publishers agree and often make notations next to these verses. This type of thing is usually a stumbling block for those who believe that the Bible is a flawless book.
The “why” question is pretty simple. Second century Christians believed many different things about Jesus. There were Docetists (actually there were two main Docetic camps), followers of Marcion, Ebionites, and on and on. Each with a different Christology. One of the loudest arguments was the Jesus as Phantasm vs. Jesus as Man debates. The agony (that Jesus sweat blood, felt pain, was strengthened by angels, etc) was used to “prove” Jesus’ humanity. That He was “fully human” as it were. The polemic of “fully human/ fully divine” came much later and after much debate – a theological compromise which I feel is not supported by the Scriptures.
Making Jesus fully human in the Gospels and possibly adding passages to support this was meant to quash the Docetic movements which were gaining a foothold in early communities. Making Jesus Fully divine was John’s job. Have you ever tried to make a decent argument for the divinity of Jesus without using the writings attributed to John?
Anyway, I hope that this lengthy reply is received in the spirit in which I write it – to edify the community of believers who want to know a bit more about our faith. This was fun and got me reviewing things that I had not considered in a long time. I hope it helps.
Whew!
Peace
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I can look up the references if you wish, but my recollection is that the sweating of blood (bleeding of sweat?) was not recorded earlier than the Latin Vulgate. Since many translations used the Vulgate as their primary source, the entries continued.
Hi Pax,
If you would not mind I would be interested in hearing more one this. When you have the time of course.
If it is true that you feel it was added and is not scripture why do you feel it was added?
Thanks
Well, Bill here’s my two cents on Lk 22:43-44 – remember, you asked for it!
OK, Jesus is on the Mount of Olives the night he was to be arrested and betrayed (of course we know that the Gospels disagree on which night of the week this was). Jesus enlists his disciples to “pray, lest you enter into temptation” which is a provocative statement in its own context. Jesus gets on His knees and prays, “Father, if it be Your will…” (anyone want to kick around the non-existence of the Trinity?).
Next comes an event, recorded only in the Third Gospel, in which Jesus is to have “bloody sweat.” This account is in many early manuscripts, but more on that in a bit. This thread has already explored the comparative “Like/As” and that needs no reinforcement here. However, you asked you asked for a more thorough examination of the disputed passage.
When comparing ancient texts, especially when trying to figure out which manuscript is the purest manuscript, many attributes need to be considered. Chief among them is “shortest wins the day.” That is to say that the most conservative telling of a tale often enjoys a slight edge over the longer version.
Let’s make up an example that may clarify this point. Let’s recite the Pledge of Allegiance. “… one nation, under God, indivisible…” is published and re-published and is an accepted phrase within this oath. Perhaps an archivist looks in the Congressional Record and finds the earliest authorized account to date – yet this account has only the phrase “…one nation, indivisible…” Hmm…
We have three options at this point: 1) “Under God” was added at some later time to assert some agenda, 2) There could perhaps be an undiscovered earliest account which contains “under God,” which leads to 3) Somebody forgot to write “under God” in this earliest account when copying it. Like I said, in textual criticism option one holds the lead as the most likely explanation.
So, if you are still reading this, let’s get back to our topic…
When we look at this section of the Third Gospel, there are great and accepted manuscripts in which the majorities contain and some others omit the “sweaty blood” reference. While the majority manuscripts speak loud, the manuscripts which do not contain the “sweaty blood” account are older and just as authentic. The only thing we can reasonably state is that a corruption of the original text occurred – we just cannot be sure which the corrupted Scripture is. We can tell when the corruption occurred, however.
If the verses in question were added later, it must have occurred in the middle of the second century (the “100’s” if you will). We know this because the verses are attested by such early fathers as Justin, Irenaeus, and other Latin and Syriac writings. If these verses are original, they would have been deleted in roughly the same time period. These verses are not found in Clement and are missing from the Alexandrian manuscripts which are considered to be the writings of earlier traditions.
There is a considerable body of writings which debate the style and word choices of the disputed passage. While they are elegant arguments, they are ultimately inconclusive.
So, from a literary criticism perspective, all we can conclude is that a corruption occurred. We just cannot be precise in determining which the corruption is. But there is a theological spin in action here which may prove interesting when considering why the corruption took place.
One writer disputes 43-4 in a contextual schema – the writer of the Third Gospel has gone to great lengths to present a condemned Jesus who is calm, in control, and confident of the Father’s Will. Jesus is the strong, silent type right up to the end. Now here’s where it gets interesting….
We know that Mark is the earliest written Gospel. Many believe it is reasonable that Luke knew of Mark’s writing and used it as a source for his own Gospel. Comparing Mark’s and Luke accounts of the Passion then becomes instructive. Mark paints a very different picture of the condemned Jesus. Luke, to produce this stalwart Jesus had to leave out big chunks of Mark’s account to keep Jesus’ stoicism intact – except for 22:43-44! It is the only place in Luke where Jesus is in such visible agony.
A verse-by-verse comparison of Luke 22 and Mark 14 shows too many contrasts to go into here – look them up and see for yourself. Mark has Jesus in agony and despair while Luke (except for 22:43-44) has a confident Jesus headed for a fulfillment of God’s Will.
Nowhere is this more pronounced than the accounts of the crucifixion. Mark’s walk to Golgotha is silent; the disciples have fled, and even the faithful women look on from a distance. Jesus is mocked by the crowd – a man who is beaten, even forsaken by God Almighty! Mark’s Christology, of course, gave reason for this. Luke, in contrast has a Jesus who is far from silent. Here is a Jesus who makes confident claims and pronouncements. He tells women not to weep for Him – He knows what He must do. On the cross, He remains calm and forgiving. He does not cry out “Why have You left me behind?” to His God as He does in Mark; instead, He calls upon His Father to forgive His executioners for they don’t know what they’re doing.
Nowhere else in Luke’s two-volume series do we find any reference to Jesus’ agony -- only in these two disputed verses. Although it doesn’t alter my theology at all, I am of the mind that those verses were added later. Many Bible publishers agree and often make notations next to these verses. This type of thing is usually a stumbling block for those who believe that the Bible is a flawless book.
The “why” question is pretty simple. Second century Christians believed many different things about Jesus. There were Docetists (actually there were two main Docetic camps), followers of Marcion, Ebionites, and on and on. Each with a different Christology. One of the loudest arguments was the Jesus as Phantasm vs. Jesus as Man debates. The agony (that Jesus sweat blood, felt pain, was strengthened by angels, etc) was used to “prove” Jesus’ humanity. That He was “fully human” as it were. The polemic of “fully human/ fully divine” came much later and after much debate – a theological compromise which I feel is not supported by the Scriptures.
Making Jesus fully human in the Gospels and possibly adding passages to support this was meant to quash the Docetic movements which were gaining a foothold in early communities. Making Jesus Fully divine was John’s job. Have you ever tried to make a decent argument for the divinity of Jesus without using the writings attributed to John?
Anyway, I hope that this lengthy reply is received in the spirit in which I write it – to edify the community of believers who want to know a bit more about our faith. This was fun and got me reviewing things that I had not considered in a long time. I hope it helps.
Whew!
Peace
Hi Pax,
Thanks for taking the time to write all that.
If you do not mind I have a couple more questions:
Can you show me the alternative verse with out the bloody sweat? Is it just the mention of bloody sweat that is stricken or the whole verse? Also do have any reference of other scripture that are contention like this. I believe mark 28:19 (Email to Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2334.msg18468.html#msg18468)) has had some discrepncy as well. But it would be interest if there is such a list of controversal verses.
Also you mentioned that you feel that this may have been added to strengthen Marks account and Mark and Luke had a different outlook. Why is that? shouldn't the gospels build upon each other and witness to each other and not show differences?
I will do as you suggested and do a verse-by-verse comparison of Luke 22 and Mark 14.
God Bless
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The Gospel of Mark omits the birth of Jesus and begins with John the Baptist’s preaching. Does this mean Jesus was not born?
The message of Mark is written to encourage and to prove beyond a doubt that Jesus is the Messiah by what He does and not necessarily by what He says.
Luke affirms Jesus’ divinity with emphasis on His humanity. Mark records more of Jesus’ miracles than sermons. Luke put emphasis on dates, details and relationships as he was a medical doctor and historian.
This does not mean that the scriptures contradict or disagree. It also does not mean that there are not errors in translations such as hell or eternal, that give rise to beliefs in purgatory, the trinity and free will, or that there are not openings for theologies of man that bite the dust and would have others do the same.
The scriptures do not contradict and neither do they disagree. They are spirit and are only discerned by the spirit and not by intellectual rationalisations assumptions and innuendo. To teach through mans understanding and not by revelation is to walk where angels fear to tread.
Ray teaches through revelation and uncovers the mysteries that cause us to have stronger faith and greater confidence and knowledge of God. Compare other teachers who’s teachings lead to weakened faith and shipwrecked confidence in Gods word. This is what should be compared, not one scripture against the other to prove fallibility of Gods word that has survived down through the ages despite errors in translations.
The Apostles were the body of Christ. They were of like mind and in accord not in competition. They had their growing pains and challenges to be of one mind that was not left undone or unsettled or in discord or competition. The writings of the apostles are not examples of variance, disagreement or contradiction. In fact, they are a portrait of our Lord and each Gospel offers its own colour that makes up the body of the message and beautiful and full choreography of Gods Holy Spirit and word. To suggest otherwise is blasphemy.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi all,
I must agree with our sister, that these "supposed contradictions" that you surmise, are nothing more than God sending a strong delusion to them who believe the lie. It is not God's intention for everyone, yea only a few, that can ever see the spirit behind the letter. The letter killeth but the spirit giveth life. We can analyze scripture till the cows come home, and all be for naught. We must always be on guard as Peter wrote....
" 2 Peter 2:1
But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction."
"2 Corinthians 3:6
Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
Believe the scriptures that say, "John 4:1
Most dear brethren, do not ye believe to each spirit, but prove ye the spirits, if they be of God; for many false prophets went out into the world."
We have been commisioned by the Lord Himself, to judge the world and angels and to try the spirits whether they be of God.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils. I Tim. 4:1
And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book. Rev. 22:19
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Excellent post Arcturus and a brilliant follow up Dwight, thank you.
The fact that all 4 Gospels are not word for word is no reason to automatically throw doubt on what is written, of course we should scrutinize and search the original Hebrew and Greek and pray for spiritual discernment but I do not see Luke's account as being outside of what we know was an extremely excruciating time for our Lord. I did find it interesting that it was Dr. Luke who wrote about this rare stress related phenomena, there is medical verification that blood pigmented sweat can and does occur, the ancient Greeks wrote of this as well as modern medical journals.
Read a synopsis of a sporting event by 4 different authors, an accident report by 4 different witnesses, they will each have their own unique perspectives and vantage points resulting in 4 somewhat different versions, putting them all together gives a more textured and complete picture.
One of my areas of responsibilty at the Residential Home Builder I am employed with is Quality Control, I have 8 people on staff and typically I have at least 2 more often 3 people (individually, one at a time over a one or two day period) go through a house to do a Quality Walk and complete a check list that covers every room and every portion of the house interior and exterior, it is no longer amazing how the reports are never exactly the same, ever. The result is a more thorough snapshot of where the house is at that time resulting in a house our customer is less likely to find fault with.
I must say this has been a very interesting thread, so many perspectives. ;)
His Peace to you,
Joe
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Thank you Joe and Dwight for the Scriptures.
Joe I found it very constructive that you gave the medical information regarding this condition and that the ancient Greeks also knew of it too!
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I would like to thank Arcturus, Dwight and Joe for the sharing the spirit of truth that is so apparent in each of your posts. :)
Truly my Sister and Brothers, it is the wisdom of simple truth that makes this forum the wonderful truthful place it is and without each of you and the truth you share, it would be a lesser place indeed.
Not sure why I am so impressed....... :) Your posts just fit so perfectly I just had to share my thanks.
Love to you all in Christ,
Your brother,
Darren
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Well! Those are some responses! I would love to scripturally refute many of the claims made here, but I will just sit back for a while and let everyone calm down.
Bill, to answer your latest question, usually the verses (Lk 22:43-4) are omitted not replaced.
To claim that the Bible has not blatant contradictions is ludicrous. How one handles his or her faith based on this fact is another subject entirely. Personally, I think that Biblical contradictions and errors are a part of the Plan -- it keeps me believing in God and not putting my faith in an anthology of truly blessed writings.
We should all keep searching for deeper understanding using all of the gifts God gave us as humans.
Peace
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Interesting discussion, here is an email where Ray answers about another scripture 'contradiction' but his answer could apply here as well.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2084.0.html ----
Dear Joed:
I will not take the time (it could take days) to try and unscramble all of the sources of scholarly bickering over whether words were changed or statements were added, etc. I believe Paul made the statments attributed to him regarding women not teaching in the congregation.
There are dozens (perhaps hundreds) of apparent contradictions in the Scriptures. I cannot take the rest of my life to try and explain them all. Hope you understand. It just doesn't bother me. Why spend time on what appear to be slight variations in the Scriptures? What is gained? Does the fact that the Bible says "the sun stood still in the midst of heaven," when in reality, for the sun to not move across the sky, it is the EARTH that would have had to "stand still" prove that the Bible is false, unreliable, and not of God? From the perspective of the earth, the sun DID STAND STILL IN THE MIDST OF HEAVEN. From the perspective of the earth, the sun DOES RISE and the sun DOES SET. We do not speak of earthrise and earthset.
Now for the Centurion: One account tells us that Jesus spoke to the Centurion and the Centurion spoke back to Him and the other account tells us that it was those whom the Centurion dispatched that spoke to Jesus and Jesus to them. How can they both be true? Does not this story itself give us the principle by which both can be true? Did not the Centurion state that he had authority over his men and when we spoke the word or command the word or command was to be followed?
The "friends" that the Centurion sent to meet Jesus just before arriving at the house were the Ambassadors, if you will, of the Centurion. His word was in THEIR MOUTHS. What they spoke to Jesus was the same as if the Centurion himself was speaking, and this is the way that I believe Matthew portrays this account, just as Jesus Himself is the "WORD of God" His Father. When Jesus speaks, IT IS GOD SPEAKING (listen to my Bible Conference tape on the Forum).
Don't get hung up on trivial things to the extent that you fail to see the lesson in the teaching. Forget whether it is the Centurion himself or his Ambassadors--what is the lesson to be learn from it. I assure you that both accounts give the exact, God-inspired, spiritual lesson.
God be with you,
Ray
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mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Bill, to answer your latest question, usually the verses (Lk 22:43-4) are omitted not replaced.
Thanks pax
To claim that the Bible has not blatant contradictions is ludicrous.
How do you handle these contradictions?
Bill
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I handle Biblical contradictions and errors the same way I handle the contradictions and errors of everyday living:
God is love. All else is style.
Peace
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I handle Biblical contradictions and errors the same way I handle the contradictions and errors of everyday living:
God is love. All else is style.
Peace
Do you care to elaborate? It seems you are dodging the question.
I do not want to pressure you for an answer but if you are willing I would be interested to hear it and if not so be it.
God Bless
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Think succinct rather than a dodge.
My reply was brief because it seems that some of my posts have had an unintended effect (or were not understood); however, my reply is as sincere as anything I've ever written.
Peace
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Kat, perhaps a compilation of all the emails that have been written addressed to Ray on the subject of contradiction could help? It obviously is needed for edification! Ray says that some 95% of his emails are on this subject alone! It would be good to have a list to study from in order to know how to handle contradictions! It is valid Bill to want to know!
Here is a more recent email that Ray answers that gives further insight into this topic.
Wearied by Contradictions
« on: April 09, 2007, 10:09:52 AM »
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Ray
You are a searcher for sure! As one you have had to take certain risks in your life to prove to yourself that you are right. How else can a searcher find an answer to that yearning in the heart?
I am a searcher too. I have gotten very excited to meet someone who has also had to risk losing friends, family, or who knows what, to find meaning in this mixed up world. No one would dig and dig into anything this deeply, unless he felt an overwhelming desire to understand his own purpose.
I have been wondering about the meaning of life since I was old enough to think. I looked at the world and realized how horrible and unfair that it was. I sought religion when I was young, but I couldn't get over the frustration that I felt when our Sunday School teacher told us that God destroyed all of the people in a big flood. It didn't make sense to me then, or now, that someone I should call Father, would need to take a life from someone. If God wanted to control evil, He simply could have prevented it from the start!! It just kept haunting me that the anger I felt was actually directed towards God. I wanted to believe in Him, but my logical mind would not let me.
I was challenged, one day, by a door to door Christian who told me to be direct about any certain prayer to which I needed an answer. I prayed to God "Prove to me that there is a Devil." If God would do this for me, I could know that He was listening to me; that a good God really existed.
Into my life came the Devil! I was turned (figuratively) in every direction but a good one, after I met a practicing black-magic witch. She showed me things about power and force that shook me to the core. Realizing that God had answered my prayer, I gave my heart to Him.
My visions of Heavenly things began that day in November 1978. God's first "thought message" to me was, "Rick, I'm going to teach you about myself. Everything I'm going to show you will demonstrate love, and how that will impact you and others in your life. If you receive messages that do not manifest love, then you can know that it is from an other who wishes to teach you lies."
Can you understand why I've been so fervent in my search? I have realized that the God of the universe is real, and that He is teaching me things. He loves us, and I have been sharing it ever since.
I know that offering an alternative view of biblical history can be threatening to ones belief system. Just as you have a lot to say, so do I! I have been given a boatload of facts to back me up, but I don't want to revel in my own accomplishments. It is the glorification of God in other people's lives that means the most to me now!
I wanted to get back in touch with you earlier than this, but I was visiting family in Illinois.
I guess that "IN YOUR FACE" approach with you did not work so well DID IT? WELL DID IT?
It made you upset for sure. As for knowing me and what I am about, you still have not a clue. The folks who write you these letters are sincere about their beliefs, and are just as upset with you when you land on them.
There has to be one teaching from God. You have to agree that all of the religions out there got their origins from something or someone. Where is all the garbage coming from? If God has one truth, then obviously most of the world is getting it wrong for some reason. Men seem to be making their conclusions from personal points of view, not necessarily from actual facts. The Bible would be 100% uniform in its teachings if the true facts about God's nature could have been known early on. If you want to teach your own children about evil, do you give them a knife and then command them to kill their neighbors because they are not as righteous as you? I don't think so. I don't think God would ever ask us to kill for Him either!! I have never gotten a satisfactory answer from anyone I have asked about this issue. They are trying to defend the inerrant of scripture and are not using any kind of logic or reasonable sen Se in their conclusions!
What do we do with all of these difficult issues? Do we ignore the problem and insult the searcher for asking these things? WE are all still students aren't we?
Up to this point I have purposely not included Bible verses to back up my views because I respected your apparent knowledge of the scriptures. Am I wrong here? So far, I have not been able to find answers in your writings about the reasons for Bible contradictions. It is obvious that there are hundreds of them. I hope that I don't have to label them all for you to recognize that they exist. If I wanted to fix a car with a manual that has as many difficulties, I would never get that thing fixed either. I don't mean to be insulting anyone intelligence on this subject. The facts are right in front of us! We don't have to look far for them.
If God has given us a reasoning thinking mind to ponder these things, then let's reason. It's easier to work together to solve problems than to just ignore them or say that they never existed in the first place.
I hope to communicate with you soon on all of this. Maybe there is an easier way; I really am tired of banging away on this darn computer board.
Thank you for your patience with me. I REALLY DO SUPPORT THE WORK YOU ARE DOING.
Your friend, Rick.
Dear Rick:
Your concerns may well be valid, Rick, but I have hundreds of readers who desire to engage me in long and endless discussions on many subjects that they feel are absolutely necessary for me to particpate in for most of the rest of my life. I'm sorry, but I can't and I won't do that. Ninteyfive percent of all the tens of thousands of emails I receive, have to do with CONTRADICTIONS: either contradictions of the Scriptures, contradictions of God, or contradiction that they think I have made in my writings. It wearies me! If you have one burning "contradiction" that you would like me to comment on, I will address that, but I will not turn aside from the important things I am writing on to discuss endlessly the subjects that others want me to take part in. Hope you understand.
God be with you,
Ray (Bold caps mine)
Peace to you
Arcturus :)