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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: zander on June 07, 2011, 04:13:21 PM
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This verse below:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)
OK so now i "know" the truths of God. Not all but some, many, i dont know. What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.
However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word? I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things. I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc. The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me? Am i screwed? SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?
Any help?
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This is a really good question... one I've asked myself a number of times. How does a person know if he falls in the list of 'chosen' ones and does not go through the LOF.
I have to believe that God looks at the thoughts and intents of the heart. He knows when we are actively searching for truth... and then applying it. In looking at Romans I do have to believe that there is something that is 'required' of us... other than just falling back on the fact that 'all will be saved'... Romans 12:1-3 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service. And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God. For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
The fact that Romans 6:1-2 says: What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
So in my mind... there has to be an accountability for the choices we make... to lie or not to lie... to sin or not to sin... and if we do our best to follow after His will and His ways.
Don't know if I'm right about my thinking on this, and if not... I truly would like to know too.
Thanks for any help in this whole thing.
Connie
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So in my mind... there has to be an accountability for the choices we make... to lie or not to lie... to sin or not to sin... and if we do our best to follow after His will and His ways.
Yes Connie, Your above quote is accurate, We are accountable for all Our choices. We make many choices every day, However, all of the choices We make are the result of CAUSES, whether internal or external. God is the Author of All CAUSES that took place in the past, are taking place in the present and will take place in the future. Due to the fact individuals desire to Sin, they are accountable for their Sins, because they wanted to commit them. God is responsible for undoing the affects of all the Sins that were ever committed, because He created us with the capacity to Sin and as a result of Our sins, We experience Evil, the consequences of Our Wicked acts or others experience Evil as the result of Our Sins. In the present Age, the majority of Mankind commit Sin with no remorse or repentance. Joe Hillsbororiver Posted a good illustration or example regarding ones showing True remorse versus someone mainly upset about getting caught & being sad about the inevitable consequences.
Sometimes We make CHOICES that turn out bad, CHOICES We might have decided to make at the time, thinking that choice was the best choice and results of even that type of choice has consequences that we didn't anticipate. God's Chosen Elect commit individual Sins, but Sin doesn't have Dominion over them or reign in their lives or becomes a practice.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
1Co 6:10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
1Jn 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1Jn 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jn 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
Kind Regards, Samson.
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Hi Zander,
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I think that part in bold is the key to what you are asking. It's like the parable of the talents, the more knowledge one receives the more that is expected from them.
You know John, it is true that only God can draws anyone to Himself, but once we have our eyes opened to this truth, which there is no greater reward a human being can receive, it is incomprehensible to think one would settle for the Lake of fire, which is a time of God's wrath and indignation. Even though it is God who decides, He puts the desire in us and we will go through the motions and carry it out. So we should run the race with all we have, because we want the better resurrection, not the Lake of fire.
Rom 2:5-6 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to his works;
Isa 13:6 Howl! For the day of Jehovah is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7 Therefore all hands shall be faint, and every man's heart shall melt;
v. 8 and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them. They shall be in pain like a woman who travails. They shall be amazed at one another, their faces like flames.
v. 9 Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste; and He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
Of course we should seek to be in the first resurrection, as there is a huge difference if you are in the first resurrection or the Lake of fire. Why would anybody think the Lake of fire is acceptable if you have the chance to be in the first resurrection? Sure you will be saved in the end, but as Ray has said the Lake of fire will not be a walk in the park.
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------
There is coming a time of severe judgment upon sinning mankind. It will not be a walk in the park for any of them. God will purge them all with the fires of His Spirit. But then, all mankind will be saved.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Zander,
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me?
Luke 12:47 And that servant who knew his lord's will and did not prepare, nor did according to His will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
v. 48 But he not knowing, and doing things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For to whomever much is given, of him much shall be required. And to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
I think that part in bold is the key to what you are asking. The thing is that those that are given this truth are no longer ignorant and deceived and will be held accountable for what they know. It's like the parable of the talents, the more one is blessed to receive the more that is expected from them.
You know John, it is true that only God can draws anyone to Himself, but once we have our eyes opened to this truth, which there is no greater reward a human being can receive, it is incomprehensible to settle for the Lake of fire, which is a time of God's wrath and indignation. Even though it is God who decides, He puts the desire in us and we will go through the motions and carry it out. So we should run the race with all we have, because we do not want to settle for the Lake of fire.
Rom 2:5-6 But according to your hardness and your impenitent heart, do you treasure up wrath for yourself in a day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, who will render to each according to his works;
Isa 13:6 Howl! For the day of Jehovah is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.
v. 7 Therefore all hands shall be faint, and every man's heart shall melt;
v. 8 and they shall be afraid. Pangs and sorrows shall take hold of them. They shall be in pain like a woman who travails. They shall be amazed at one another, their faces like flames.
v. 9 Behold, the day of Jehovah comes, cruel and with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land waste; and He shall destroy its sinners out of it.
Of course we should seek to be in the first resurrection, as there is a huge difference if you are in the first resurrection or the Lake of fire. Why would anybody think the Lake of fire is acceptable if you have the chance to be in the first resurrection? Sure you will be saved in the end, but as Ray has said the Lake of fire will not be a walk in the park.
http://bible-truths.com/email5.htm ----------
There is coming a time of severe judgment upon sinning mankind. It will not be a walk in the park for any of them. God will purge them all with the fires of His Spirit. But then, all mankind will be saved. This occurs at the white throne judgment, not when Christ returns to reign on the earth.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I could be wrong, but I believe I received my understanding from Ray's teaching in the Lake of Fire articles, which I was rereading yesterday.
It is true that the phrase Lake of Fire is referring to the end time judgment. However, Ray has taught that Fire is symbolic of God. We all will go through a judgment by Fire (God) whether it is now or in the Lake of Fire judgment. "Our God is a consuming Fire." Also, "God is no respecter of persons".
All will be judged by Fire (God), whether now or later. "Judgment is now on the House of God", and it is a judgment by Fire. Fire is not a bad thing because it symbolically refers to God. God (Fire) is spiritually burning out all that is evil or wrong in His people, and is thereby forming His jewels.
Further, as you know, there is no free will. We do not decide which resurrection we are in. God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection. It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
If any of us are to be in the 1st Resurrection, then God will give us both the will and the to do (works) to make it. Jesus is our Savior. It all depends on Him. Our own will and works cannot save an ant. But with His Spirit in us, then we can do all things; we will then have the will and the to do (works) to make it into the 1st Resurrection.
If my understanding is wrong, I am willing to change. But it has to be by the Spirit of God, two or three Scriptures please, with a spiritual match to a spiritual match.
So, if I have misspoken, then show me precisely my error. That is if you have the time or inclination. I am in no hurry. I am not being contentious, but what I have written above is my current understanding of this topic. Peace.
John
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I am now even more confident in what I wrote above. See Ray's third article in the Lake of Fire series, "Judgment By Fire Must Begin at the House Of God".
It is filled with Scriptures, which are rightly divided. The judgment by fire of the Elect now is similar to the Lake of Fire judgment of the world at the end of the ages. The Greek word for fire is the same (Pur) for both judgments.
God is a consuming Fire. His standards are the same for all mankind, both now and later------Perfection. We all must become perfect just like our Father in Heaven. Perfection is achieved by judgment by fire (symbolically). The Fire is God.
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Hi John,
It is true that the phrase Lake of Fire is referring to the end time judgment. However, Ray has taught that Fire is symbolic of God. We all will go through a judgment by Fire (God) whether it is now or in the Lake of Fire judgment. "Our God is a consuming Fire." Also, "God is no respecter of persons".
All will be judged by Fire (God), whether now or later. "Judgment is now on the House of God", and it is a judgment by Fire. Fire is not a bad thing because it symbolically refers to God. God (Fire) is spiritually burning out all that is evil or wrong in His people, and is thereby forming His jewels.
I would explain this in my own words, but you know how I love to post excerpts of Ray's :)
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm ----------------------------
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:
"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).
"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).
"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).
"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).
"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).
"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).
"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).
"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).
"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).
"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:10).
"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).
"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:16).
There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.
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Further, as you know, there is no free will. We do not decide which resurrection we are in. God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection. It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
This is true, BUT we do not know what God has decided.
It sounds like you are saying I might as well just sit back and wait on God, because God has already decide and nothing I do will make a difference. Since I don't know what God has decided (regardless of which one I will actually be in), but since I don't know which one it will be, I am going to shot for the first. I know it's not by my own effort, but where do you think I get the will and determination from? I would think it's a lackadaisical attitude that is of more concern. Anyway that's what I'm thinking on this.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I have to say I agree with everything in Kats last post. I don't see anywhere in the New Testament where a lackadaisical attitude concerning salvation (which means to ESCAPE the Lake of Fire, not go through it) is condoned. Everything I see written is COMPLETELY the opposite. The New Testament is written for us to, by faith, follow Jesus in this life, go through our LOVING judgements from God, and then to be resurrected to rule with Christ to bring all the rest of creation into subjection. It is not going to be easy to go through that subjection, which will not be by faith, but by an iron scepter. And even if you are one of those who are beaten with only a few stripes, Oh what a huge loss, to miss out on the Kingdom of God. That is what missing the First resurrection and going through the Lake of Fire means...you are MISSING OUT on the Kingdom of God. Oh, the end, the final end, the consumation, as far forward in time as the biblical eye can see, that will be glorious, for all, but to miss out on the Kingdom, on Jesus? God forbid. I will never stop hungering for that more than anything else this life can offer.
Mat 13:40 Just as the weeds are gathered and burned with fire, so will it be at the close of the age.
Mat 13:41 The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers,
Mat 13:42 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 13:43 Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.
Mat 13:44 "The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
Mat 13:45 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls,
Mat 13:46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it.
Mat 13:47 "Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a net that was thrown into the sea and gathered fish of every kind.
Mat 13:48 When it was full, men drew it ashore and sat down and sorted the good into containers but threw away the bad.
Mat 13:49 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
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I tend to think more like John and Zander and Joe on this. WE aren't the wicked that God is angry at. We are believers. We are truth seekers and rejoice in that truth.
Jesus and Paul told many people to just go, sin no more, live your lives, love your neighbor....Paul didn't even tell many people to be like him and be a missionary to the entire world. that super Christian I have always tried to be like at church is impossible.
Zander, we may not be called to be the "Rays" of this world...but we have a guide to follow-the Bible-Paul talks alot about day to day living. Paul sinned a lot too..(Oh wretched man that I am)..well I cant compaire myself to him either.
Just being an agree-er to Ray's writings does not get us in the first. Doug and Kat, sorry, but those scriptures don't speak at all to me tonite-maybe I am just in a mood---oops not spiritual so I can't be in the first??? They don't edify the saints. I don't feel God is angry at me at all- He loves me no matter what I do and If I walk thru that pond of purification He said in Psalms He will be with me.
imho
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Hi Zander.
This is a parable that you've quoted part of. We know (or ought to know) that this means it refers to the many and the few. I was almost persuaded at one point to believe that the 'many' was the whole world outside of the elect. Then Ray wrote his rebuttal of 23 minutes in Hell and was kind enough to include illustrations so that even the weak minded like me could return to what I first believed. The ones 'given much' who will recieve 'many stripes' are not the Elect of God. They are not the lost and sinful world. They are the church. They are only the Church and nothing but the church. They are the ones we came from, and some of us (like Paul) were even leaders in those congregations. Read the parables in that chapter again with that thought and see if it doesn't make more sense? Are the elect of God "beating the maidens and youths"? I don't think so.
To the extent that I am OUT OF HER, I am IN HIM. The world can't say that. Only the few.
As far as your sins go, if you can stop them, do. But as Ray says, God will give you the desire to stop sinning long before He gives you the ability. Right now, you may just have a fuzzy little wish to maybe one day actually want to stop. I don't know. God is God.
There's so much to know that won't fit in a forum post. Keep reading what Ray wrote and take what the forum says with due caution.
Hang in there. Study.
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I think we may be assuming an 'all or nothing' mentality when it comes to judgment in the next age. Not everyone to be judged in the next age LOF will be judged with wrath & indignation.
Jesus only heavily reprimanded the leaders of the church, not the blind masses. We have to remember that most non-believers didn't freely choose to be non-believers, but rather they were/are blinded [Matt 13:11, John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4].
Even those who sit in church pews each Sunday and give an 'Amen' to all the souls they believe will be cast into a literal Hell, do so out of ignorance. Almost all would repent just as fast as Paul if there minds were opened at any time.
Those who know the truths of God, but deny them for their own personal gain, will be the ones judged with wrath & indignation. Not because they freely chose to me stubborn, but like Pharaoh, God has hardened their hearts to show His great signs & wonders [Ex 7:1-3].
Marques
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I most surely believe that the judgment in the next age will be justly administered according to our works. Not all will feel the harshness of His wrath, because God is always fair and just.
Pro 24:12 If thou sayest, Behold, we knew not this; Doth not He that weigheth the hearts consider it? And He that keepeth thy soul, doth not He know it? And shall not He render to every man according to his work?
Rom 2:14-16 For, when nations that have not a law, by nature may do the things of the law, these not having a law--to themselves are a law; who do shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also witnessing with them, and between one another the thoughts accusing or else defending, in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men, according to my good news, through Jesus Christ.
Rev 22:12 And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to each according as his work is.
Everyone will give account for themselves before the Almighty and He will most certainly know what judgment each deserves.
All will be accountable for whatever the intent of their heart was in the deeds they have done when they lived. Those that take pleasure in evil (and I do believe there are people that do) will be dealt with much more harshness, as it needs to be. There shall be babies and children resurrected and surely we know they will not recieve wrath, but to be raised up in gentle love and care.
But for those of us that are shown this truth now, you are in the race for the first resurrection! I just don't see how anybody would sit back and think the second resurrection would be okay. I am not saying anyone is not doing the best they can according to how God works in you, but it's the attitude. I just want to encourage us all to have great desire and zeal to be a part of the first resurrection.
Rom 12:9 Let love be genuine. Abhor what is evil; hold fast to what is good.
v. 10 Love one another with brotherly affection. Outdo one another in showing honor.
v. 11 Do not be slothful in zeal, be fervent in spirit, serve the Lord.
v. 12 Rejoice in hope, be patient in tribulation, be constant in prayer.
Heb 12:1 Therefore let us also, seeing we are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Further, as you know, there is no free will. We do not decide which resurrection we are in. God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection. It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
John
Hey John,
I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":
Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!
Daywalker 8)
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It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
I would like to exercise my right to "futility" by hoping to be in the 1st Reseurrection. ;D
René
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Does the phrase "Judgment is now on the House of God", apply to the House of Israel, as Peter (1 Peter 4:17) was writing these words to mostly Jews, or does it mean the Church or Paul's disciples(to whom he never used this dsignation)?
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Interesting note on the lazze faire attitude:
Rev 3:16 So then because thou art lukewarm [G5513], and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
G5513
χλιαρός
chliaros
khlee-ar-os'
From χλίω chliō (to warm); tepid: - lukewarm.
Tepid: characterized by a lack of force or enthusiasm
Scriptural Match:
Pro 18:9 He also that is slothful [H7503] in his work is brother to him that is a great waster.
H7503
רפה
râphâh
raw-faw'
A primitive root; to slacken (in many applications, literally or figuratively): - abate, cease, consume, draw [toward evening], fail, (be) faint, be (wax) feeble, forsake, idle, leave, let alone (go, down), (be) slack, stay, be still, be slothful, (be) weak (-en). See H7495.
Pro 10:4 He becometh poor that dealeth with a slack hand: but the hand of the diligent maketh rich.
Mat 25:26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
Mat 25:27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
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Isn't that a metaphor? Again, he wasn't talking to us! (I don't believe)
Zander, John, and I are certainly not speaking about laissez faire. I can read Zander's pain in his post. It is all of God anyway what sins he helps us overcome and the ones he doesn't.
Who made Paul the way He was? God did. Paul was a BULL - not many like him since either. Can't compare ourselves. but even he said in Rom 7:24..Oh wretched man that I am.
Lets not hi -jack Zander's thread and his plea for understanding.,
Lukewarm doesn';t apply to most anyone on this forum....we have all given up a great deal---family, friends, churches, fellowships, (potlucks :D), and so on.
also, we are all at different points on our journey....what excites the newbie may not excite someone who has been around this for years...doesn't mean we are lukewarm.
imho
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Further, as you know, there is no free will. We do not decide which resurrection we are in. God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection. It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
John
Hey John,
I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":
Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!
Daywalker 8)
Hi Daywalker,
No need to be respectful. ;D ;D ;D
Everything Paul was or ever will be, all came from God. Nothing came from Paul.
Paul was an arrogant little snotty religious fanatic who believed strongly in the Law of Moses. He thought he was good by the religious things he did. He was so good that he also thought he would be in the resurrection of the just, before his conversion.
Paul consented to the murder of Stephen, and watched over the personal effects of the murderers, and watched them murder Stephen. Paul persecuted the Church of God. He killed, tortured, and imprisoned followers of Jesus, both men and women.
When Jesus decided enough was enough, He knocked Paul on his rear end and converted him, in a few seconds. Paul had nothing to say about it. Paul didn't get to vote on whether he wanted to follow Jesus or not.
Jesus made Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul didn't get a vote. The above scripture you quote also came from God. Paul's zeal to obtain the 1st resurrection also came from God. Paul didn't work it up himself. As Paul himself knew, and as he was led to write, both the will and the to do came from God.
So when I used the word "futile", it was with Paul in mind. If Paul brought about everything that he did, on his own, then I guess it would also be possible for us to decide we will be in the 1st resurrection, and to follow God's ways.
God knows who His Elect are. He selects them. And He brings about their conversion now, by His judgments by fire. Spiritual Fire is a good thing. Our God is a consuming Fire. He is the Vine; we are the fruit. It is all from God. Jesus is Savior, not us. Everything we are or ever hope to be, all comes from Him.
John
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Isn't that a metaphor? Again, he wasn't talking to us! (I don't believe)
He was addressing the 7 churches, so He was talking to us.
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Hi onelovedread,
Does the phrase "Judgment is now on the House of God", apply to the House of Israel, as Peter (1 Peter 4:17) was writing these words to mostly Jews, or does it mean the Church or Paul's disciples(to whom he never used this dsignation)?
This might help with your question.
http://bible-truths.com/lake14.html ---------------
In Ezekiel 14:7 we read:
"For every one of the house of Israel [WE {Gentiles} are now the circumcision of God, Phil. 3:3. WE {Gentile believers} are the true Jew, Romans 2:28-29. WE {Gentiles & a remnant of racial Israel} are the spiritual Israel of God, Gal. 6:16] or of the stranger that sojourns in Israel, which separates himself from Me, and sets up HIS IDOLS IN HIS HEART…"
http://bible-truths.com/lake16-D3.htm -------------------------
"For the time is come that judgment must begin [this began two thousand years ago] at the House of God..." (I Pet. 4:17).
The JUDGMENT, COUNCIL, GEHENNA, AND PRISON (Matt. 5) of Christ's Sermon on the Mount are for US; Christ's disciples; those chosen; the faithful; the overcomers; the few; the elect. And these judgments are NOW in each generation of the chosen few throughout this Church age.
The Gospels were written for us. The judgments they contain are for us. Jesus says unto us, that we are in danger of judgment, council, gehenna fire, and prison, if WE do not spiritually obey from the heart even the least of Christ's commandments.
v
v
Yes, of course, the whole world of unbelievers and ungodly will experience God's Divine consuming fire-His Gehenna fire, but not before it has first purged all of His Elect, the called and Chosen of the House of God. Which judgment the "House of God" has been experiencing now for 2000 years.
These instructions are decidedly not written for the "Many [who] will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, ...in Thy name done many wonderful works?... I will profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me..." (Matt. 7:22-23).
Only the living experience "Gehenna fire." And during this life, It is rather the living chosen elect of Jesus Christ who go through "Gehenna fire."
"If you be reproached [insulted] for the name of Christ, happy are you... yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf, for the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God..." (I Pet. 4:14, 16-17).
We must all receive reproaches from men, but judgment from God. And God purges us from the offenses of our carnal mind by "His Divine consuming FIRE" (Heb. 12:29).
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Some intersting points.
This is what im getting so far and theyre different:
a) That although i "know" of the basics truths, i am not deserving necessarily of "many stripes" as i am not purposefully committing acts of sin, "knowing" that everything will (eventually) be OK. I sin yes, but as i say, no more than the average human being if you like. The many stripes refers to (according to gmik) the Church or someone who knows the truths of God and goes right against them, like badly against them, worse than the average human being.
b) That i do "know" the basic truths of God and therefore it is my responsibility to want to be in the first resurrection (regardless of whether i end up there) and if i do not aspire to that, i will be part of the "many stripes" brigade.
As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things. I have been given Gods understanding about something quite profound. However, as of yet, i have no real desire to want to be in the 1st resurection. Sorry, i cant help that.
Im still confused lol
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One last comment for Zander (thanks, Gena).
When I think of stripes these days, I don't think of punishment--so many stripes for one bad behaviour, so many for another. More for worse, less for not so bad. This may disappoint Antaiwan :D , but to my mind, the 'beast rising out of the sea' that is me is not some grotesque monster out of babylonian fantasy, but just a simple beast of burden--just a donkey carrying a load. How do you get a donkey to move, and to move in the right direction? You smack it. "A rod for the back of fools".
Pro 19:25 You smite a mocker, and a simple man shall become prudent; Reprove one of understanding, and he shall understand more knowledge."
Pro 19:28 A worthless witness mocks at judgment, And the mouth of the wicked swallows down lawlessness."
Pro 19:29 Judgments are prepared for mockers And beatings for the body of the stupid.
We're going to get spiritually beaten until we're no longer stupid. These truths you know are not petty doctrinal theological curiosities for chin-strokers. Just the fact that you would NOT sentence a man to eternal hell-fire makes you a better servant than any minister of that 'other gospel', no matter how impeccably 'moral' he might be.
Now:
2Pe 1:5-8 Because of this, make every effort to add integrity to your faith; and to integrity add knowledge; to knowledge add self-control; to self-control add endurance; to endurance add godliness; to godliness add brotherly affection; and to brotherly affection add love. If you have these qualities and they are increasing, it demonstrates that your knowledge about our Lord Jesus Christ is living and productive.
And if not?
2Pe 1:9 If these qualities aren't present in your life, you're shortsighted and have forgotten that you were cleansed from your past sins.
Don't forget you've been cleansed from your past sins. To the extent that you have come out of her (babylon), you will not recieve of her plagues.
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Hey again John,
We are in agreement that all is of God. Of course Paul's desire to finish the race came from God, not from himself. We do not disagree* here at all. In fact it is this very truth that our desire or "wish to be in the 1st Resurrection" does come from God, that I cannot understand how you would use the phrase "total futile exercise" to describe it?
To me (correct me if I misunderstand your intent) it's like saying it is a total futile exercise to love my wife, because it is God Who gave me this love I have for her. But I know that my love for my wife came from God. That doesn't mean I don't want to continuing loving and finding ways to show her my love. In the same way, I know that my desire to be the first resurrection came from God just as my faith and every good thing that I have. So why then would I turn around and say that this "wish" which came from God is "futile"? Does God give us "futile" things? Why would God give me this desire to be in the 1st Resurrection if this wish is "futile"? That's a slap in His Face from my perspective!
Daywalker 8)
Edit: typ-o.. said "agree" but meant "disagree"... it happens :D
Further, as you know, there is no free will. We do not decide which resurrection we are in. God has already decided, before He created the world, who was going to be in the 1st Resurrection. It is a total futile exercise to wish to be in the 1st Resurrection. You either will be, or you will not be. The Potter has already decided.
John
Hey John,
I would have to respectfully disagree with your above highlighted statement. Yes, it is true that "all is of God" and only God knows who are His, but I would hardly accuse our Apostle Paul of practicing this "total futile exercise":
Phillippians 3:8-11:
Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith--that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, that by any means possible I may attain the resurrection from the dead.
I don't think anyone here would argue that Paul is referring to the first resurrection (i.e. the resurrection of the just). Paul 'gave it his all' every single day of his apostleship wanting, striving, doing all the he could so that "by any means possible" he could "attain" (achieve, gain) a spot in the first resurrection. Personally, I cannot imagine knowing all that I now know and yet NOT "wanting" to be in the first resurrection and be one of the many "saviors" on Mt. Zion (Obadiah 1:21)!
Daywalker 8)
Hi Daywalker,
No need to be respectful. ;D ;D ;D
Everything Paul was or ever will be, all came from God. Nothing came from Paul.
Paul was an arrogant little snotty religious fanatic who believed strongly in the Law of Moses. He thought he was good by the religious things he did. He was so good that he also thought he would be in the resurrection of the just, before his conversion.
Paul consented to the murder of Stephen, and watched over the personal effects of the murderers, and watched them murder Stephen. Paul persecuted the Church of God. He killed, tortured, and imprisoned followers of Jesus, both men and women.
When Jesus decided enough was enough, He knocked Paul on his rear end and converted him, in a few seconds. Paul had nothing to say about it. Paul didn't get to vote on whether he wanted to follow Jesus or not.
Jesus made Paul the Apostle to the Gentiles. Paul didn't get a vote. The above scripture you quote also came from God. Paul's zeal to obtain the 1st resurrection also came from God. Paul didn't work it up himself. As Paul himself knew, and as he was led to write, both the will and the to do came from God.
So when I used the word "futile", it was with Paul in mind. If Paul brought about everything that he did, on his own, then I guess it would also be possible for us to decide we will be in the 1st resurrection, and to follow God's ways.
God knows who His Elect are. He selects them. And He brings about their conversion now, by His judgments by fire. Spiritual Fire is a good thing. Our God is a consuming Fire. He is the Vine; we are the fruit. It is all from God. Jesus is Savior, not us. Everything we are or ever hope to be, all comes from Him.
John
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Well I think it is a matter of perspective, we all have our own way of looking at things.
John, it seems to me that you look at the hard cold facts and leave it at that. Where as I think of the attitude and emotions that are involved. Yes it is all of God, but the human factor plays a big part, as the work that God is doing in us is for OUR benefit. God's Holy Spirit indwelling is changing everything about us, mainly the way we think in our mind. Paul was not the same person when he was converted that he was as Saul and neither are we. The things that happened to Paul was all of God, but it was to change/convert him, his thinking, to bring him to understand and desire the will of God. So it is with us. God gave Paul great Revelations, so that he could express these truths. I certainly take his teachings to heart.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You cannot ignore that, "work out your own salvation," God is doing His work in and through us, to change our thinking.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian.
Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven,
v. 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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There's no quick fix Zander. I wish there was ~ :)
Arc
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Yeah im still not clear on this.
Kat says:
"Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian."
I understand this. But i dont have the desire to want that now. This is my point i am trying to make. Im given this "knowledge", but really i dont know what to do with it. As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things. I am more wary of some sins than i used to be. However i still have my faults. And i sometimes think, with these faults and my knowledge, what do i do? I sometimes swear, i sometimes judge, i am a bit opinionated, i like girls (if yo uknow what i mean lol) but none of this is any more than your average guy.
Just seems unfair if i am going to get hammered for having something i didnt ask for and then having to be something i am not, with it. Hate to say this but for the first time it feels like when i was taught Church stuff that if i don't do a, b or c i would go to hell, whilst i was thinking "hang on, i cant help what i do.." Is there an answer that makes sense?
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Yeah im still not clear on this.
Kat says:
"Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian."
I understand this. But i dont have the desire to want that now. This is my point i am trying to make. Im given this "knowledge", but really i dont know what to do with it. As i say, im a normal guy, i do normal things. I am more wary of some sins than i used to be. However i still have my faults. And i sometimes think, with these faults and my knowledge, what do i do? I sometimes swear, i sometimes judge, i am a bit opinionated, i like girls (if yo uknow what i mean lol) but none of this is any more than your average guy.
Just seems unfair if i am going to get hammered for having something i didnt ask for and then having to be something i am not, with it. Is there an answer that makes sense?
Zander,
What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect. It doesn't work that way. It's a process. God does it in increments. He brought you to this Truth, and you will grow as He wills - in the timing of His will. We are just to do what we can as He gives us the strength and desire to. Pray, study, etc. He is the one that makes the changes - not us. We can do nothing without Him. Without His influence, we'd be out in the world partying like a rockstar - sinning to high heaven. Just be patient. :)
Blessings,
John
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Well I think it is a matter of perspective, we all have our own way of looking at things.
John, it seems to me that you look at the hard cold facts and leave it at that. Where as I think of the attitude and emotions that are involved. Yes it is all of God, but the human factor plays a big part, as the work that God is doing in us is for OUR benefit. God's Holy Spirit indwelling is changing everything about us, mainly the way we think in our mind. Paul was not the same person when he was converted that he was as Saul and neither are we. The things that happened to Paul was all of God, but it was to change/convert him, his thinking, to bring him to understand and desire the will of God. So it is with us. God gave Paul great Revelations, so that he could express these truths. I certainly take his teachings to heart.
Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
You cannot ignore that, "work out your own salvation," God is doing His work in and through us, to change our thinking.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Zander, we will all be judged now or later. The Scripture are clear that now is the more desirable judgment, not to mention obtaining life eonian.
Heb 12:25 See that you do not refuse Him who speaks. For if they did not escape, those who refused him that spoke on earth, much more we shall not escape if we turn away from Him who speaks from Heaven,
v. 26 whose voice then shook the earth; but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will not only shake the earth, but also the heavens."
1Co 11:31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged.
v. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Hi Kat,
I think you got it. I agree. I look at cold, hard facts. I am not that much into emotions, or touchy, feely things. In fact, too much syrupy emotions makes me sick. I can't take it.
I try not to waste mental energy on things I cannot control. That is what I meant when I referred to thoughts about the 1st resurrection as "futile". I understand that God has already selected the Elect who will be in the 1st resurrection. Therefore, what I think about it, or who may be there, is irrelevant. It's not my call. I don't get a vote. Why worry or think about something that I do not control?
Likewise, I do not like wars and killings. I do not like world hunger. I do not like sickness and disease. I do not like natural disasters as has recently occurred in Japan and Joplin, MO. However, since I cannot make things right, I don't worry about such things. I do take comfort that Jesus is Savior and will make all things right. I have great peace in that knowledge.
So I think you are correct. It is all a matter of perspective. I do not think those of us here have any fundamental disagreements.
John
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"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".
No, i am not thinking this way at all. I am thinking the exact opposite. Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it? I know i am not waking up wanting to change. I am not changing. I am not in a place where i want to. I know i will have to, but that day isnt today. So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should. As i say, im an average, every day guy. I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?
Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.
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"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".
No, i am not thinking this way at all. I am thinking the exact opposite. Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it? I know i am not waking up wanting to change. I am not changing. I am not in a place where i want to. I know i will have to, but that day isnt today. So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should. As i say, im an average, every day guy. I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?
Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.
I misunderstood then. I'm sorry. God will give you the desire to change when He wants you to start. He brought you to the Truth for a reason, so time will tell how it will start to unfold.
John
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"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".
No, i am not thinking this way at all. I am thinking the exact opposite. Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it? I know i am not waking up wanting to change. I am not changing. I am not in a place where i want to. I know i will have to, but that day isnt today. So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should. As i say, im an average, every day guy. I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?
Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.
From the FAQ section under "What to Do Now" (I believe that was basically your question):
Members,
Many times after reading Ray's teachings and coming out of the church, believers wonder 'What should I/We be doing now?' These are a few of the many comments Ray has made regarding what we should be doing, according to the scriptures.
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,25.msg34.html#msg34):
Dear Scott:
I don't know what you mean by "to do something?" Just living, is "doing something." Overcoming is DOING A LOT OF SOMETHING. But if you mean does God have a work for you in the ministry of spreading the Gospel, I can't answer that. There are thousands who would wish to "do something" in this life for or in God's Gospel Ministry, but they wouldn't think of giving a penny to aid those who are already "doing something." Ask God to show you what it is that He wants of you. I assure you that your life will be lead accordingly as God has predestined.
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4577.msg35182.html#msg35182):
Dear James: I can appreciate you enthusiasm for God's truth, but you also need
to approach your actions with a bit of Scriptural wisdom. If you have a wife and
family, you have a huge obligation to support them. You know what Paul said
about a man not supporting his family being worse than an infidel. So don't be
in a rush to give away all your possessions and hit the streets with a Bible. After
about 72 hours, you will begin to see the folly of your decision. Even I feel
inadequate for the job I am doing, yet I have had a lot more life experience, and
probably study of the Scriptures than many.
We are reaching two to three thousand visitors a day at our site, and that would
be hard to duplicate or surpass with a Bible out in the street. Many dozens of
people have written me over the years desiring to become teachers and preachers.
Some have wanted to come to my home, live with me, and have me be a mentor to
them so that they can teach this gospel to the world. I have never heard from even
one of them since.
I know of no where on earth where a dollar goes further in bringing
hundreds of thousands of people to the truths of God, than at bible-truths.com, and
yet we have very very little financial support. I have personally held off on buying
reference books, and other needed expensive materials that would help me in my teaching
and preparation for articles, simply because I didn't want to take away from our main
use of funds, and that is advertising on the major search engines. I am debt free,
but we live off of social security, that's all.
My Web Master and I muse sometimes over what God might let us accomplish if
we had but one week's income from TBN or one of the big money-makers. As I stated in
my tithing paper: "Never have so many accomplished so little with so much!"
Concerning repenting: Yes, certainly, we are to repent of our sins (always) as well as
forgive all others for their sins.
Just take care of your family for now and keep studying God's Word. If God wants
to use you in some other capacity, it will become evident to you without selling out
on your family.
God be with you,
Ray
Email reply from Ray (http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4814.msg37171.html#msg37171):
Dear Nate: I get asked this a lot, but there is no easy formula for me to give you. You know that you should obey God. This is the primary thing we must all do. But for me to tell you how to live your life on a daily basis, I'm afraid I can't do. If you don't know whether you should continue living in the Babylonian Church system, what good would it be for me to tell you that God says, "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE...." (Rev. 18:4)? If you try to convert your family, friends, and relatives to your new-found truths, they will think you crazy or may even turn on you. So leave them alone. The way you conduct your life will speak volumes about what you believe, however, clever arguments will convince no one. Of the tens of thousands of detractors who have tried to contradict my teachings, which I then answered and proved them wrong with the Scriptures, how many do you suppose said: "Oh, okay, now I see it. I'm sorry. I was deceived. I see now that you do teach the truth"? Would you believe 2 or 3? That's right--2 or 3 out of tens of thousands.
You will face ever-changing challenges in your life--every few seconds, minutes, and hours of every day. You will have to decide how to handle these situations, one at a time. Learn the Truth and then live by the Truth. Did Jesus teach His apostles how to react to every situation that would confront them after He was gone? No, no He didn't. Life is indeed a challenge, and in the final analysis it all comes down to YOU AND GOD. I am at the same place that you are, Nate. No one tells me how to solve all my problems. I just obey God and rely on Him to see me through. Many people want to be teachers after learning a few of the basic truths of God. This is generally a mistake, as it takes more to be a teacher than a desire to teach. I might desire to be a great singer, or a great speller--the reality is both are totally out of the question. I am what I am by the grace of God. I realize that most think it is rather scary to try and live a righteous life not knowing exactly what to do and how to do it. Your darn right it's scary. Life is scary. But knowing that there is a loving God Who is carrying out a righteous and wise purpose on this earth is a giant aid to our infirmities.
There is no better way to assuage our own inadequacies than to help others with theirs. I remember when I was going to college back in California, we took a weekend camping trip to the San Bernadino Mountains. One day we climbed this mountain. A couple of chaperone's brought their children. At one place high up the mountain we followed a trail that was precariously close to a cliff with a long drop. I was getting a little nervous. However, close to me was one of the children (a girl of maybe 8 or 9 years), and she was beginning to have a panic attack. I took her by the hand and put her on the inside and assured her that we would not fall. My fear left me immediately, and the little girl did just fine also. I never forgot that experience. Help and love others, and your life will begin to take on meaning.
God be with you,
Ray
Hope that helped a bit,
Patrick
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Zander, it seems you are almost taking knowledge as a bad thing :(
We teach our children so they will be able to make good decisions. Then once we have instructed them in something then we expect them to be able to do it. Let's say we show them how to swim, it may take a while but they get it figured out. Now they have knowledge that not only can they enjoy, but could save their life. It would be a very ungrateful child to come to their parents and say, 'I have no use for swimming, what good is it to me? I wish you had not even taught me.'
Think about it, God has given you something very precious, you may not see the good of it right now, but the value of what you know will never diminish. You should hold on to what you have, because if you do not want it He just may take it away from you.
Here is a section of the '05 conference 'What Is The Gospel of The Kingom.'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6142.msg50218.html -----
Let me give you something powerful. Everybody has kind of a feeling, they say, ‘well nobody is perfect and I’m not perfect and therefore I’m okay, because nobody is perfect.’ This is the attitudes of Laodiceans, I’m lukewarm. What does God say about lukewarmness? "I will vomit you out of My mouth."
There is either light or darkness with God. Jesus Christ says if you are not for me, you are against Me. ‘Well wait there must be something in between, you can be pretty much, maybe not completely.’ No, you are either for Me or against Me. If you are lukewarm you are totally deceived.
Rev 3:14 "And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write, "These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God:
v. 15 "I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot.
v. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spew you out of My mouth.
v. 17 Because you say, I am rich and increased with goods (‘oh I understand these truths, I know all this, I could teach it, I could write articles on this, I know these things, they are second nature to me’), and have need of nothing; and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked.
Wow, it doesn’t say you are a little deceived, I mean come on. Here is somebody that believes in God, these are members of the church of God, this is the seventh phase, Laodicea. “you say, I am rich and increased with goods and have need of nothing, and do not know…” You don’t know you are totally deceived… “that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked.”
You are like the emperor that had no clothes on and when somebody says ‘you don’t have any clothes on.’ He get’s angry with you and says beat that servant. The truth of the matter is he doesn’t have any clothes on and you are just trying to save him some embarrassment. But he hates the servant and would whip the servant that would ever suggest such a thing.
HIDDEN TREASURE
Rev 3:18 I counsel you to buy from Me gold tried in the fire…
Buy it, that is the hidden treasures. The “gold tried in the fire” is the hidden treasure. Buy it whatever it takes, sell everything you’ve got and buy it. That’s what you want, you want that gold tried in the fire. That’s what you want. You are either for Me or against Me.
Remember in verse 10 James said, “humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord.” Now back up in verse 6 notice what it says;
James 4:6 But He gives more grace. Therefore He says, God resists the proud, but He gives grace to the humble.
He resists the proud. If you start to go with these truths… I’m talking about when you left your first love and now you are coming back, if you don’t grow in these truths, God will resist you.
If you don’t grow you are like the man that took his talent and wrapped it in a napkin and hid it, so it can’t grow. Guess what? You will lose the one talent you had. If you had some abilities and you are not growing, guess what? God will take them away. He will take them away and you will lose what you had. He will resist the proud.
Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they who love Your law (and we know that God‘s Law is spiritual), and nothing (not anything) shall offend them.
If you are living by God’s Law, you can’t be offended. You will only pity the poor slob who tries to put you down. If you are not offended, truly not offended, you will be a king who will bring judgment to that person one day. Then they will learn to be humble like you.
So God has great things in store for the few, the called, the chosen, the humble. The ones that are like little children, just wanting to do the will of their Father.
Kings - lords - priests - a royal nation - a peculiar people - a special people to God. It’s all at hand, that how close it is, it’s at hand.
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mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Im getting some insight here, i think.
I dont want to "lose" what i know. I mean that would only happen if i literally forgot it, like if i woke up 1 day and God took it away from me, as if i had suffered some form of permanant amnesia.
I still am struggling to understand the many stripes bit though. As i say, i know what i know. But what now? Ive known for about 7 years. Have i changed in that time? Not that much. if anything ive just become more confident. I am wary of certain sins and think about what i do SOMETIMES - more than i probably used to. Not always though - as i say, i am a normal human being. So is it after 7 years of this, as i havent "served" God properly, i am due a harsher treatment? Just seems unfair, as i have no desire (yet) to change fundamentally. Im not a very good servant, but not out of spite just out of living normally and just carrying on really from where i left off in 2004
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You know, I really think the Apostle Pauls' imagery of a race is really really appropriate and germane here. Has God decided in advance who is going to win the 100 meter dash in the next Olympics? We know he has. Is that person, aware he/she has been chosen to win? No, they are not. Are the putting in all the effort, all the training, all the proper diet, all the rigors of pushing themselves to higher and higher levels of performance? You know they are. You also know, that WITHOUT this effort, they would NOT win the gold medal. If they just sat back, and never pursued the prize, never pushed themselves to the limit, never went further than they ever had before in regards to effort, in regards to discipline, in regards to desire, they would NOT achieve that gold medal. So Gods calling them to the winners circle INCLUDES all the efforts, all the desire, all the discipline, all that training, to make the body able to do what He has foreordained to happen.
Why would you think the highest award in the universe is any different? Do you think God is going to give the First Resurrection to those who do not desire to pursue it with all their hearts? Do you think the people who sit in the couch deserve the gold medal, who do not put in the effort? So do you think God is going to let people just waltz in who really don't want to be with Christ more than anything, who do not want to help establish his kingdom more than anything?
1Co 9:24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.
1Co 9:25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.
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Hey Zander :)
I know and can relate to what you are saying, feeling, and trying to express in this thread.
I have been in a similar state of mind, but God is bringing me along to the point where I ain't as lukewarm as I use to be.
It really does take him to put a fire under you. ;D I have read the Bible through a number of times, and could see myself on many a page, but Was never able to seem to break through to where according to the scriptures I should be, or doing what I thought I should be doing. Flesh, flesh , and more flesh.
I knew what Jesus said to the Church in Laodicea, about being wretched, and miserable , and poor, and blind, and naked. I said yes Lord that is what I am, what are you going to do about that.
I knew in my heart that I still wanted MY will to be done more than his, so if me being honest with God helped to get things moving, and that is what I see in you, that you are being honest and truthful. God wants us to be truthful with ourselves, doesn't help us to be two faced, especially with him.
The scriptures say this in James 1: 17-25
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath:
For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
Hope this is of some benefit to you. :)
Joel
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kat, the sections you pulled from ray's '05 conference were so timely. thanks for the boost. :)
claudia
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Do you think God is going to give the First Resurrection to those who do not desire to pursue it with all their hearts? Do you think the people who sit in the couch deserve the gold medal, who do not put in the effort? So do you think God is going to let people just waltz in who really don't want to be with Christ more than anything, who do not want to help establish his kingdom more than anything?
No I don't. Because God, in the first place, did not put the desire in them.
No I don't. Because God, in the first place, made them just to sit in the couch and not put any effort.
No I don't. Because God, in the first place, made them just waltz and made them not to want to be with Christ and not to want to help in the kingdom.
Although I doubt it but your statement still sounds that man must be the one or the first to put the desire, to work and not just sit down, and to want to be with Christ.
There is no free will. It is sometimes hard to understand it though, you know which action comes first or what. But if we are to understand that the ultimate Cause is God then nothing, absolutely nothing, from our part started something (like the above). They should be "God-given".
So again, to parrot JFK, why worry? If God wants or has already chosen me to be in the first resurrection, then He will put the desire, however little I recognize the calling or choosing. Eventually, I will stand up from my "couch" and work the grace God has put in my heart, however little I understand what I am doing. Finally I won't just dance and be careless but will run the race God has beset before me, and then finally recognize, understand, and acknowledge that IT IS GOD THAT DOES ALL OF THIS AND NOT ME.
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Zander, do you really want to be a "normal" guy and do " normal" things? Satan is the ruler of this world and the things in it. When you lie, remember who is the father of lies. Just because you know truths from the Word doesn't mean you are living in Truth. They are two different things. I don't mean to be harsh- I think about this in regards to my own path all the time. But my friend, I don't want to be normal, I want to be peculiar, a light in a dark, dark world. I hope we all continue to be enlightened as God draws us near to Him.
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Questions for self examination..
Do you love righteousness? Do you hate wickedness? Do you want to see righteousness established? Does your own wickedness make you mourn?
Do you love people? I mean deeply. Even in people you disgree with, or are evil. Can you see past that, do you still love some deep part of them? Can you see them repenting? Can you see what they could be? Would you like to weep with them, while they repent of their sins and call on Jesus? Can you even love the deceived ones in the church? Appreciate the good anyone does for Jesus?
Would you like to see evil stomped out of the earth? Does everything about Christ make your heart and spirit soar? Do you love it when you feel His approval? Do you desperately desire to have your first love, with all your new maturity? Would you defend Christ? Do blasphemers and athiests make you sad, though you never hate them for it, just sad? Do they seem utterly foolish to you?
Are you gradually getting victory over long term sins? Do they have less and less power and hold over you? Does the things of the world, its fame, money, adulation, seem like rubbish? As great as the knowledge you gain is, on this site, is the love of God even greater to you? Is the knowledge subordinate to your real love of God, and of others? Do you show this love, often?
Do you know how weak you are? But how strong He is? Is His strength making you stronger? Do you wish, that you would never sin again?
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Zander, do you really want to be a "normal" guy and do " normal" things? Satan is the ruler of this world and the things in it. When you lie, remember who is the father of lies. Just because you know truths from the Word doesn't mean you are living in Truth. They are two different things. I don't mean to be harsh- I think about this in regards to my own path all the time. But my friend, I don't want to be normal, I want to be peculiar, a light in a dark, dark world. I hope we all continue to be enlightened as God draws us near to Him.
You're right but until God shows you these truths and changes that part of us how can you live in it? I do know what it means to die daily. I may not always have known that but I do now. It's ugly when you see the fleshly part.
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If you don't mind, I would like to answer these questions. (my comments in bold)
Questions for self examination..
Do you love righteousness? YES Do you hate wickedness? YES Do you want to see righteousness established? Does your own wickedness make you mourn? YES
Do you love people? I mean deeply. Even in people you disgree with, or are evil. YES, I may get angry but, I ask Him to change me Can you see past that, do you still love some deep part of them? Can you see them repenting? YES Can you see what they could be? Would you like to weep with them, while they repent of their sins and call on Jesus? Can you even love the deceived ones in the church? Appreciate the good anyone does for Jesus?YES, 24/7 I think of these things. That's all I can think about
Would you like to see evil stomped out of the earth? YES, but not the people, sometimes I wants smack them but then I know if I did I would feel so badly I wouldn't dare Does everything about Christ make your heart and spirit soar? I thought so but, now I might just be mad at Him because if he had changed all these things when I was younger perhaps I would still have my husband and he would be alive] Do you love it when you feel His approval? That's all I want Do you desperately desire to have your first love, with all your new maturity? Would you defend Christ? Do blasphemers and athiests make you sad, though you never hate them for it, just sad? Do they seem utterly foolish to you? [/] YES YES AND YES, sometimes I want to pinch them but I don't I just don't know how to get their attention......so I just sit there because of the way I've been handling it has run everyone off around me and I get sick of hearing all the baloney coming from false doctrines that make me so angry I could scream. This has made me angry since I was young but, I don't know what to do about it. I never have. I hate to hurt other people....so I finally just quit. Every now and then something hits a nerve though and I just can't help exploding and then feel guilty over that[/b]
I ask myself, ok God, why did you make me such a worrier all my life and so concerned about other people and not wanting to hurt them but yet, I do....I have...and obviously I have had to resist certain proud statements that I was well trained in the synagogues that made my skin crawl and my blood boil but, do I love the ones who are deceived?..Yes, absolutely....If I hadn't sounded like sounding brass and a tinkling symbol I might still have my husband, son, grandbaby. Now, they are all gone and I may have (spiritually killed them. with all the "churched knowledge I got (which was very little...and constant proud bellowing out in my ear every day about how proud my family was and it was supposed to be such an admirable thing that made me want to vomit so I'm sure it made God want to do the same thing..at least I pray that I didn't...So why did he wait until i'm getting so much older to show me these things that may have caused me to have my family or a set of parents that taught me the real values from scripture and not just the material crap I was hammered with my whole life? Does that make me angry with God about some stuff? YES!![/b]) I didn't stay in the "churches" for long because I could see it was all just a theater and I found it very boring and a waste of my time....but didnt' get out long enough before I picked up a bunch of religious garbage that didn't even come close to what scripture says. I could go on and on telling you events if you're interested but I won't cause here I am ....a total mess of a person who loves the people around me so deeply I can't stand the thought of watching them go through the LOF because of perhaps total garbage that I myself participated in teaching them at times, especially my children. Am I angry with God? Yes, sometimes I have no clue why He makes things so painful for some and see others sitting right in there in their little churches every single Sunday, never pick up their bible excpet on perhaps Wed. nght service and then try to tell me how to live my life. That's what makes me feel like Paul because when he boasted of his shipwrecks,etc....and all his sufferings he didin't want to boast but he did to make a point....I wish I knew what part I'm playing here. If i'm to die for Him, I'm ready to go. If not, show me what to do or not do....something!! That's what I thought I was doing from the day I came in here and is why I poured my heart out in here. If it sounded self righteous.....God knows my heart and maybe I should have been careful of my wording. But, what's done is done, so there is that and now, as far as I'm concerned with, it's all in He is in his hands. I feel like Jacob too sometimes asking Rachel....AM I GOD that I can give you a son????? If I need to be rebuked, go ahead. I can take it. I may go off and cry and pout for a few days but I'll be back sooner or later....then You will know I'm not physically dead (speaking plainly here). Do I feel humble....if you only knew!! So much so that I couldn't speak for several days. Sometimes the worst things that hurt the most make you humble. I'm just hoping there is no more pride left to be burned out of me because this forum was the last one in those rebukes for that...I had plenty more before I came here and much repenting to do. And as a side note, to the person who used that rebuke, it was just the thing I needed. (Ouch)
Sorry Zander ;) Didn't mean to take over your thread.
Grace
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I think that you will most certainly reach clarity if you stay humbly on your path through difficult times Zander. I wish you well ~ :)
Arc
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This verse below:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)
OK so now i "know" the truths of God. Not all but some, many, i dont know. What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.
However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word? I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things. I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc. The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me? Am i screwed? SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?
Any help?
Zander,
One of the most important things I learned from the scriptures thru Ray is that I am a lawbreaker however little my sins seem to be. Which means it does not matter whether or not I only lied, or I only coveted, or I only stole a little, I only put God's name occassionally and others murder, others rape, etc..etc.. I'm still a lawbreaker. I'm the same compare to others. I cannot boast.
Similarly, I cannot make myself follow "God to the tee" unless He makes me. There is a desire, I can feel it hence I pray daily and ask Him to keep this desire He gave to be ever kindled. I wait for the time I will become "fully blown" spiritually. If God willing, I really really like to see what is it like to be in the first resurrection. But I don't know where to start. Study and pray, I guess? Then apply what is learned with God's guidance, perhaps?
By faith you will feel, know, sense that there is A POWER that is making you to become someone that you are not before.
-Mij
(Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice. Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?)
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To the person who asked me if i want to be a normal guy. I am saying normal as in i am human. Obviously am not going to put my biography here. There are things/talents about me i feel stand out (thank God) but why express that here? It would be straying from my point.
I didnt really understand the race analogy. The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race. Why put effort into it then?
On another note, there must be thousands of people who "know" these truths but dont necessarily apply them to every day life like they maybe should - so just leading their normal lives, normally.
I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply. i dont get that. Again, its a bit like saying if you dont do a, b, c you go to hell...and everyone remembers that mental conundrum, dont they?
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Hi Zander,
Just seems unfair if i am going to get hammered for having something i didnt ask for and then having to be something i am not, with it. Hate to say this but for the first time it feels like when i was taught Church stuff that if i don't do a, b or c i would go to hell, whilst i was thinking "hang on, i cant help what i do.." Is there an answer that makes sense?
When you are judged here or later it will be JUST. God would only hammer those that needed it to learn how to live right. Don't worry that the punishment will exceed the crime, so to speak, He will give each exactly what each needs no more and no less.
You make not have much of a desire now, but you are here and seeking and that is a start. The parable of the mustard seed comes to mind... we all start out with the earnest of the spirit, a tiny amount (mustard seeds are very tiny). We have to nourish this seed/Holy Spirit and feed it spiritual food for it to grow. Yes all is of God and this is something He will continually nudge us to do. Are You being nudged right now? He makes us see the need and then start to act on it. We will not change over night, but what is the change that needs to come? Is it that anyone that sees us knows we are religious, because we just look righteous? Is it you spend a certain amount (lots) of time on your knees in pray everyday? Do you seek out as many as you possibly can do charitable works, so the world can see your "good works"? I don't think it is really any of these things.
The Holy Spirit guides you daily to overcome your faults, but it is a process that takes time. He shows us a sin and little by little we work to remove it; first we only recognize it (lying, petty thief, anger, cussing, coveting, judging others are things that come to mind), but we know these are wrong and hate that we do them and want to stop it. The hate of it grows as we continue on doing it until we actually start to catch it before sometimes, then catch it more and more till we don't do it anymore. As I said this can be a very slow process, but over time you begin to overcome these things one by one. I will say that He does at times removes a fault almost instantly, it happens. That to me is dying daily, getting ride of the carnal desires. As you can see almost all of these sins are directed towards others, so putting others before yourself is the key.
But a very important thing is coming to 'know' Christ! I see this as communication with Him back and forth, I talk to Him all the time, not out loud usually and He talks to me in the Scriptures and in meditation. This is vital spiritual food that we must have to grow spiritually. Here is a section from another thread that seems to fit here.
http://bible-truths.com/lake8.html --------------------------------------------
"To him that overcomes will I give to eat of the hidden manna" (Rev. 2:17).
We can’t grow spiritually unless we eat SPIRITUAL FOOD. When we eat of Christ’s spiritual body, we grow spiritually; when we stop eating spiritual food we spiritually starve and spiritually die. If we eat spiritual food, we grow, we mature, we are "continuing in Christ’s word" and Christ word is spirit and therefore spiritual food.
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Hi mmijares,
Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice. Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?
That made me chuckle :D You speak very well. Actually in the next age I hope He will give the elect one pure language to speak, maybe the whole world too, kind of reverse it back to before Babel or something.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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I didnt really understand the race analogy. The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race. Why put effort into it then?
That was the entire point! To show where you are right now. Some people really want to run the race with all their heart. Some, like you, do not even want to enter the race. If you do not even want to enter the race, then, your conscience may bother you, for you have been intoduced to some great truths. But you don't want to deny yourself, to follow Jesus. So you are worried about stripes. You worry that this knowledge may actually backfire, because you are not willing to serve God. So exactly how is God going to treat you, you wonder, in judgement?
You remind me of King Agrippa, when he said to Paul....Act 26:27 King Agrippa, do you believe the prophets? I know that you believe."
Act 26:28 And Agrippa said to Paul, "In a short time would you persuade me to be a Christian?"
The text doesn't ever say if Agrippa actually became a Christian. You need to decide if you want to become a follower of Christ or not. Even Christ says to count the cost...Luk 14:27 Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple.
Luk 14:28 For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it?
I pray that you will decide that the rewards of this earth are not even to be compared to the Kingdom of God.
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To the person who asked me if i want to be a normal guy. I am saying normal as in i am human. Obviously am not going to put my biography here. There are things/talents about me i feel stand out (thank God) but why express that here? It would be straying from my point.
I didnt really understand the race analogy. The fact is, as i have said a few times here, i am not currently even wanting to run that race. Why put effort into it then?
The race analogy is simply one living their life. You are not judged by how you finish, but rather how you ran the race. And it is the 'how you ran' that determines your prize at the finish, so to speak.
God is more interested in who & what you are internally, then your outward works. He works on these things, even as you do your normal day to day things. As He continues to change you internally, it will manifest outwardly...this is how one 'lets their light shine'. Just remember, God works from the inside-out, and you won't realize it is happening until AFTER the process has begun and close to completion. That's what it means to 'look back' as the apostle John does in Rev 1:10 [See section 'I STOOD UPON THE SAND OF THE SEA' under Lake of Fire Part 13 (http://bible-truths.com/lake13.html)].
I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply. i dont get that. Again, its a bit like saying if you dont do a, b, c you go to hell...and everyone remembers that mental conundrum, dont they?
Why assume everyone else gets harsher treatment? What is harsher treatment?
God only punishes the wicked for what they DO desire to do, not what they don't. And I'm referring to those who knowingly 'suppress the truth in unrighteousness' [Rom 1:18]. As I said before, it's not an all or nothing scenario. There will be people, many people, who will not have God's wrath upon them because they were blinded in their ignorance. But those who do know the truth, and DESIRE to withhold that truth for their own personal gain, THEY will have God's wrath upon them. Not because they had no desire to live right, but because they desired and did live wrong in suppressing the truth.
Hope this helps Zander,
Marques
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This verse below:
"And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with MANY STRIPES. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with FEW STRIPES. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more." (Luke 12:47-48)
OK so now i "know" the truths of God. Not all but some, many, i dont know. What i mean is i know the ending is going to be good for all and i basically understand what God's will is.
However, as i am still basically human and i sin, does this mean i am in for a harsh time in the LOF because i am not a "avid follower" of the word? I mean im a normal guy, i do normal things. I might lie on the odd occasion and do small stuff like that, but ive not killed anyone, robbed a house etc. The again, neither am i Ray or anyone who is a avid follower.
But at the same time because i "know" the lord's will, what does this mean to me? Am i screwed? SHOULD i be therefore like Ray or anyone else who is following God to the tee?
Any help?
Zander,
One of the most important things I learned from the scriptures thru Ray is that I am a lawbreaker however little my sins seem to be. Which means it does not matter whether or not I only lied, or I only coveted, or I only stole a little, I only put God's name occassionally and others murder, others rape, etc..etc.. I'm still a lawbreaker. I'm the same compare to others. I cannot boast.
Similarly, I cannot make myself follow "God to the tee" unless He makes me. There is a desire, I can feel it hence I pray daily and ask Him to keep this desire He gave to be ever kindled. I wait for the time I will become "fully blown" spiritually. If God willing, I really really like to see what is it like to be in the first resurrection. But I don't know where to start. Study and pray, I guess? Then apply what is learned with God's guidance, perhaps?
By faith you will feel, know, sense that there is A POWER that is making you to become someone that you are not before.
-Mij
(Sorry, I am not good in expressing myself in English, worst in giving personal advice. Funny, I sometimes think, does God only want English-speaking people to be in the first resurrection?)
For MMIJARES & Others,
MMIJARES, I don't think you have to worry about God Choosing Only English Speaking individuals. Here's a list of those that didn't speak English: Paul, John, James, Peter, Thomas, Thaddeus, Philip, Barnabas, Timothy, Mary Magdalene, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Stephen, Jude, Nathaniel, etc, ;D and many more.
Below are excerpt's that I thought might bring balance to the varying opinions involving God's CAUSES, whether Direct or Indirect tempered with Our participation in this Life Course accompanied by the consideration of Man's Will(not Free Will), Man's Desires,the exceeding Weak Heart of Man, God's Purpose or Plan, God's Will for us as individuals. Hopefully, this will help the discussion and not add confusion. Read below PART'S OF OR COMPLETE EXCERPT'S OF RAY'S IN BLUE.
By the way, we are considerably more complex than a mere puppet. But it is true that God controls us every bit as much as a puppeteer controls a puppet. And God is not ashamed to admit that this is the case. God says that a man CANNOT DIRECT HIS OWN STEPS, that the response of the tongue IS FROM THE ETERNAL, that ALL IS OF GOD, that God is operating ALL according to the counsel of His own will, that HE Himself is the CREATOR OF EVIL, it was God who planted the forbidden fruit tree in the garden than contained not only good, but a knowledge of EVIL as well, it is GOD who sets up the rulers of all governments, one can only come to Christ when God decides to "draw [Greek, drag] him to Christ," and a thousand and one other things. So why do we have trouble believing all these Scriptures?
Dear Nameless:
You are spiritually BLIND!
You equate NOT living according to God's Word, Whoring around with as many women as possible, having carnal fun, and being a general overall a@@, will "Make my life as FULFILLING AS POSSIBLE." Listen to yourself!
You are admitting that you HATE GOD'S WAY OF LIFE.
To you it "isn't fun" and "isn't fulfilling." To you a life of sin is a "FULFILLING LIFE." You need a little spiritual adjustment between your ears.
I stated that there is coming "JUDGMENT" upon all who have not known or obeyed God. There is "chastisement" in that judgment. THEY WILL have a change of heart, (as you must as well) before they will be members of God's Family. God will PURGE THEM of their evil and wicked ways--it is not a pretty picture.
Hitler will not just waltz into the Family of God as if he has not nothing to be corrected about. People like Hitler will be SEVERELY CHASTISED for their evil ways. But, he WILL BE SAVED! Thank God for that.
You and I both would have been little "Hitler's" except for the grace of God. And if you don't believe that is true, then your understanding of your own carnal nature is small indeed.
Have no fear. The wicked will repent before they ever enter God's Family. Therefore, if we do not welcome them, then there is something seriously wrong with our own attitude, character, and spirituality.
Hope that helps yours understanding.
Sincerely,
Ray
There are a couple of reasons why God holds one accountable (not responsible--God takes the responsibility) for his sins even if he couldn't have done otherwise.
People who sin and have no desire to please God, do not believe in the first place that they do not have a free will regarding their sins. They believe that they ARE in control of their own destiny. See the example of that I use of the Assyrian king in the latter part of my letter to James Kennedy. The king took credit for conquering all the nations around him. He though HE was the mighty one. He thought HE planned and did these mighty acts by HIMSELF. God informs us that the king was merely a pawn (or an ax) in God's own hand doing the conquering. Our pride and vanity will be conquered by God.
We actually DO commit the sins that we commit. Whether we could have done otherwise is immaterial in as much as committing the sin makes us SINNERS. Think of sin as DIRT. It matters not HOW we got dirty--God is going to give EVERYONE A BATH LIKE IT OR NOT. God is God and He can and will do as HE pleases. And God pleases to put us through an experience of sin and death before He glorifies us with all the powers of the universe.
You state that Joshua making a CHOICE to obey God "sounds like free will to you." It may, indeed, 'sound' like free will to you, but it is nothing of the kind. Nowhere in Scripture or in my writings will you find a statement that man does not MAKE CHOICES. All men make millions of choices--billions! Making a choice has absolutely nothing to do with the doctrine of "free moral agency" or what is commonly called, "free will."
We choose all day long. God asks us to choose. The human brain has the ability to weigh data and make a choice. I nor the Scriptures deny this fact. What I AND THE SCRIPTURES do deny, is that man has the ability to man "UNCAUSED" choices. For that is what "free" will is all about--UNCAUSED choices, and I and the Scriptures both agree that this is a physiological impossibility.
If something always MAKES OR CAUSES you to choose what you do, then you and your data-processing-brain are not "free" or out of the realm of "causality" to do anything BUT what a cause made you choose. You can say the cause, forced, made, or soften, to influenced, or inspired, but the end result is always the same: ALL OF OUR CHOICES ARE INFLUENCED, INSPIRED, OR CAUSED to happen by billions of circumstances beyond our knowledge or control.
I have stated many times that God DOES NOT MAKE OR FORCE ANYONE TO SIN AGAINST HIS OWN WILL-- MAN DESIRES TO SIN, WANTS TO SIN, AND THEREFORE VOLUNTEERS TO SIN. God did not FORCE or MAKE Eve eat of the forbidden fruit. Her own DESIRES caused her to lust and eat of the forbidden fruit.
And so the real question is: "Does God have the right to make mankind subject to the desires of their own heart?" Think about it, as I have, for a few thousand hours, and maybe God will grant to you the spiritual understanding of this matter.
Hundreds of totally deceived and spiritually blind Christians have told me that: "God does not want robots to love Him-- He desires people to love Him by their OWN FREE WILL." Oh really? And can the carnal mind indeed love God by its own nature; its own heart; its own desires? NO IT CAN'T! And so the very thing that Christians demand as necessary for our love for God to be genuine, is the very thing that totally disqualifies it from being genuine. The natural mind is totally incapable of loving God:
God created mankind spiritually WEAK--subject to the lusts and sins of his own heart, so that man will learn that he CANNOT love God first; he cannot obey spiritual laws and commandments; he cannot please God; he cannot accomplish anything of lasting value through his wicked and deceitful heart. (Jer. 17:9). And therefore God's ways will justify His means. The rewards and the blessings are not even to be compared with the glory that God is creating in the human race (Rom. 8:18).
And so here is the answer to your question:
BEFORE spiritual conversion man FALSELY THINKS that he has free will and is for all intent and purpose a god unto himself.
AFTER spiritual conversion man will be eternally thankful that God never gave his such a foolish concept as "free will," or he would never ever realize the marvelous highest of power and glory that God has in mind for him.
And presently, you and some few others, are in between these two extremes of human understanding. I will pray for God to grant to you "spirit of wisdom" so that you will comprehend and apprehend the marvelous and mysterious working of our God.
Unfortunately, there is not a magic bullet that will instantly clean us of all sin and bad habits. Even the physical analogies of this spiritual washing, purging, and cleaning of our carnality, indicate that time is required. It takes time to wash clothing, it takes time to purify gold and silver in a furnace, etc.
The penalty of sin issue can be settled in your heart and mind the instant you come to realize that Jesus PAID IN FULL the penalty for your sins and all the sin of the world. However, paying the penalty for sin does not instantly PURGE AND WASH US CLEAN OF SIN. The penalty is paid, but the condition lingers.
The more you SEE your sins and shortcomings, the more you will DESIRE to rid yourself of these things. We are crucified WITH CHRIST, yet we live, but the life we live is one of OVERCOMING THE SINS FOR WHICH WE AND CHRIST DIED FOR.
We have been HAND-PICKED by God to be in His kingdom. Now we must go through the training course that He has set before us. Jesus said that He overcame THE WORLD. We too are to overcome THE WORLD. It's a HUGE task, that requires the power of SPIRIT to accomplish.
Don't become discouraged in well-doing. You will triumph in Christ if you have His spirit working in you. God will even give you the DESIRE to want to do right and be right.
This life is a life of SPIRITUAL WARFARE. There will be many battles before the final victory. So we must endure and we must overcome. For those whom God has chosen, this will be accomplished!
When you or I are confronted with a decision to either do something that we know is right, or know is wrong, we weight the options and MAKE THE CHOICE. God has absolutely given man a brain that has the ability to process information. Man CAN process information and make a choice. But it is the information itself the causes the choice one way or the other. The man cannot make a choice WITHOUT some form of information that influences or ultimately CAUSES him to make a choice. NO ONE MAKES US MAKE THE CHOICE, even other unforeseen circumstances and information DOES MAKE OR CAUSE US TO CHOOSE! True, circumstances beyond our control, which we do not see or even perceive, do cause us to MAKE a choice, but ... BUT, IN OUR OWN HEART AND MIND, WE MAKE THE CHOICE -- not someone else or something else.
But "it's all GOD" Who is ACTUALLY doing it, isn't it? NO, YOU, ACTUALLY, ARE THE ACTIVE PARTICIPANT WHO IS DOING IT! God merely brings about the circumstances that INFLUENCE AND CAUSE YOU TO DO IT!
Now then, pay close attention to what I am saying: Why are we held accountable for something that we absolutely COULD NOT HAVE AVOIDED? Why? Because at the time we made the 'voluntary' (not absolutely 'FREE,' but 'voluntary') CHOICE, it was in OUR heart and in OUR mind to DO SO. And if the choice was WRONG, or SINFUL, then WE, not GOD, must be held accountable. God takes the "responsibility" for what we did -- hence He DIED ON A CROSS FOR US, but WE are accountable for our SINFUL WRONG CHOICES.
This is the only way man will LEARN right from wrong! Adam and Eve were 'TOLD' right from wrong, but not until they actually 'EXPERIENCED' right and wrong, did it make sense to them. IT IS WRONG TO SIN WHETHER WE WERE COERCED TO COMMIT SIN OR NOT. "The DEVIL MADE me do it." It matters not, YOU DID IT and are therefore accountable.
Juveniles commit MILLIONS of crimes and sins for which they are not RESPONSIBLE. But, nonetheless, our own court system HOLDS THEM ACCOUNTABLE. And even human, carnal, judges take this factor into consideration when handing out penalties.
It is the PENALTY that also CAUSES US TO CHOOSE RIGHTLY after we have chosen WRONGLY! When we burn our fingers on a hot stove, we LEARN to not touch a hot stove.
I'm certain there are other Emails that provide insight explaining the Cause & Affect relationship regarding Mankind Sinning explaining Our participation, God's Authorship and How We stop sinning and Our active role in all of this. This Topic about Man's Accountability, God's Responsibility, Man's desire. God's Plan & Desire and whether or not We are involved and to what extent has surfaced for discussion in many Forms and derived from Topics that originally had nothing to do with the original question. Perhaps, because of the difficulty of fully comprehending this relationship, this type of Topic continues to be a source of discussion. I expect that it will be brought up in the Future in some Form or another, especially with the addition of New Forum Members. Well, it's often said: Repetition is the Mother of Retension.
Hope This somewhat Helps, Samson.
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I can see this thread could probably go on forever, which is understandable as everyone has their personal take on this.
All i can say is this. I am normal lol. I like music, going out, being with pals, cinema, sometimes horrors (like The Mummy III, so bad it was horrific :). I like to debate, i swear, i judge occasionaly, i drink sometimes, i dont smoke, i like girls. I dont give as much as i should, i forgive slightly more than i used to. Finally, worst of all and this should be deserving of many stripes alone - i watch Paris Hilton programmes :D. Actually ive gone off them so maybe i am seeing the light.
Im also a journalist. I hate injustice and i pour wrath on people who cant see the truth through the trees because theyre blinded by media nonsense. Is that right? I dont bloody know. What i do know is all of it is part of who i am. I am not a decent servant and i am sorry to God for not being one. I am not running any race, i havent really wanted to. I know one day i will, but not today. I just dont want to be looked down on for this indiscretion as i really cannot, at the end of the day, help who i am.
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Samson,
That's where I have another question. It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables. But, then, there is the scripture here that says:
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Heb 11:14 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Would that not mean that whatever language He speaks it will be plainly to His own?
Thanks,
Grace
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I still dont get why anyone should recieve harsher treatment for knowing and not applying if they have no desire (or should i say little desire) to apply. i dont get that.
Because by not applying what you have been given in Spirit is putting your own self righteous attitude before the Lords. Remember Job? The few or many stripes of Gods fire are needed to burn out the old man before the new man in Christ can be put on.We all have to be a servant/obey our Lord before we can be perfected in the Spirit.To worship God is to obey God and Scripture states that we are to live by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God...obey and live...refuse and die.
If any one of us is led to believe otherwise then there are Spiritual consequences to be paid,none the less,we will all learn righteousness.
Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Mat 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
Peace...Mark
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Samson,
That's where I have another question. It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables. But, then, there is the scripture here that says:
John 16:25 These things have I spoken unto you in proverbs: but the time cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in proverbs, but I shall shew you plainly of the Father.
26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
27 For the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Heb 11:14 Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised.
12 Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable.
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
Would that not mean that whatever language He speaks it will be plainly to His own?
Thanks,
Grace
I've referred this question to kat, I asked Her to answer for Me, not because I don't like You, ;D, but I have to go to work soon and would like to answer thoroughly and not Wing It. Kat said She will get to it, when She can, but accepted My request. Also, Kat's smarter than I am, ;), but She has a few errands to run, Please be patient, maybe John Michael might view Your question too or Marques, they could answer if they choose to do so. ;).
Thanks, Samson.
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Samson,
That's where I have another question. It says in scripture that He spoke plainly to his disciples but to the multitudes He spoke in parables.
That's not true Grace, Christ spoke in parables in all His sermons, including to His disciples. The same passage you referenced has Christ saying to His disciples 'I have spoken to you in proverbs (parables)' but that He shall speak plainly, as in soon but not now.
As far as the many languages, God has already demonstrated that He is able to use anyone to speak in any language necessary to further the gospel. This miracle is actually the true meaning of 'speaking in tongues'. Ray's paper on speaking in tongues is a good reference (http://bible-truths.com/tongues.htm).
Hope this helps,
Marques
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Zander....thanks for your honesty!
I don't and I hope no one here looks down on you for anything!!!
Good Lord, that is not what this is for...you sure got preached at on this thread tho!!! ;)
shrug it off and live your life-
Your Sister in the Lord,
gena
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"What it sounds like here is your thinking that once you come to the Truth, you're suddenly going to wake up one day no longer desiring any sin whatsoever, righteous in every manner, and spiritually perfect".
No, i am not thinking this way at all. I am thinking the exact opposite. Now i "know" these "truths", how do i deal with it? I know i am not waking up wanting to change. I am not changing. I am not in a place where i want to. I know i will have to, but that day isnt today. So whilst i "know" what i know, it seems unfair to get hammered if i dont start to follow it as i should. As i say, im an average, every day guy. I dont hate anyone (as far as i know, although i hate anything with Paris Hilton in it..lol)..yuo know what i mean?
Jeez, i sometimes wonder if i'd rather i didnt know what i know.
Hey Zander,
I know what it's like feel as you do, I've been there too. Don't put too much pressure on yourself. Live your to the best of your ability, doing your best to treat those around you kindly regardless of how they treat you back. If you have a desire to open your bible, do so. If you have a desire to "shout out a prayer" to God, do so. If you feel like you need to "slow down" or take a break, do so and don't feel guilty for it. Just remember these truths and keep them close to your heart:
(1) All is of God, Who is Sovereign.
(2) Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World (not potential, but Actual)
If God has any higher calling for you in this life, than He will lead you in that direction. And you know we are all here at the forum anytime you need us.
Godspeed,
Christopher 8)
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Just take care of your family for now and keep studying God's Word. If God wants
to use you in some other capacity, it will become evident to you without selling out
on your family.
God be with you,
Ray
"Nuff said.....this thread got too wordy and preachy in my opinion. Just leave it as what Ray says!!
Live your life! don't worry about any perceived shortcomings and don't worry about the "stripes".....
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i could understand the many stripes bit if i abused the knowledge ive been given - i get that. So if i went on and felt i had a free license to sin and fooled people deliberately. I get that.
But as i dont do that, i am, if you like, in limbo with it, this is where my question lies. How do i get treated by God for knowing and not doing rather than knowing and abusing?
Weird.
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i could understand the many stripes bit if i abused the knowledge ive been given - i get that. So if i went on and felt i had a free license to sin and fooled people deliberately. I get that.
But as i dont do that, i am, if you like, in limbo with it, this is where my question lies. How do i get treated by God for knowing and not doing rather than knowing and abusing?
Weird.
Desire to do good works comes from God, so don't worry about not having it now. You can't be something you're not [Jer 13:23].
You're not in limbo, you're just a sinner who has their mind opened to the truth. Paul referred to it as a 'wretched' feeling [Rom 7:24], but asked rhetorically, 'who will deliver me?' and then answered: 'thanks be to God, through Jesus Christ our Lord' [Rom 7:25]. God plans on delivering you from this feeling you have now, not pile onto it. You won't be mistreated or abused, but comforted in due time.
You'll be treated as a son, because our God is our Father.
Marques
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"Nuff said.....this thread got too wordy and preachy in my opinion. Just leave it as what Ray says!!
These kinds of comments aren't helpful or edifying for anyone involved. All they do is promote bad feelings & strife. If one doesn't like how a thread is heading, stay away or contact a moderator.
If a members opens up a discussion, there's a chance that all forum members could respond...goes with the territory. We're only trying to help one another.
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Ive appreciated everyones input in this thread, so i want to say i havent felt preached at. Everyone has their take on things, so its all good ;)
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Dear Zander
Throughout this Thread, you exhibit vast reserves of patience, longsuffering and level headed integrity. Our brothers and sisters do the same as they rush to assist your quest and thirst to understand.
In response to the maturity shown in the dialogue unfolding in this discussion, permit me to elaborate upon the perspective from where I view the dilemma that promotes your valid question.
We know that we are of the Body of Christ. There is One Body, and that IS Christ. At first glance, this might seem basic, rudimentary and acceptable, yet within this simple statement of Truth remains a vital spirit quickening realization.
We are of God. There is nothing outside of God. All is of God.
As the Body of Christ of which we are, then as fingers on a hand we are as one to another. One is the index the other is the pinky etc. Paul expounds this concept as follows.
Rom 12:5 So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.
The discussion regarding the race and the winner points to the One who has already won the race. That One is Christ Jesus.
The discussion regarding first and second resurrection, harsh stripes and light stripes are also as one occurrence, as One Body of Christ.
If you be the hands and you get a wrap across the knuckles, then the Hands get the many stripes and the rest of the Body feels it albeit at a lighter stripe distance. ~ We are one.
We are loved of the Father as The Father loves His Son.
I see no hierarchy in the Kingdom of God.
Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
Mar 10:31 But many that are first shall be last; and the last first.
Arc
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Hello Marques
I think we may be assuming an 'all or nothing' mentality when it comes to judgment in the next age. Not everyone to be judged in the next age LOF will be judged with wrath & indignation.
Jesus only heavily reprimanded the leaders of the church, not the blind masses. We have to remember that most non-believers didn't freely choose to be non-believers, but rather they were/are blinded [Matt 13:11, John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4].
Even those who sit in church pews each Sunday and give an 'Amen' to all the souls they believe will be cast into a literal Hell, do so out of ignorance. Almost all would repent just as fast as Paul if there minds were opened at any time.
Those who know the truths of God, but deny them for their own personal gain, will be the ones judged with wrath & indignation. Not because they freely chose to me stubborn, but like Pharaoh, God has hardened their hearts to show His great signs & wonders [Ex 7:1-3].
Now that is something I have been searching after for years, coming from a family of non-believers, THANKYOU!! :) :) :)
Tom
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I think we may be assuming an 'all or nothing' mentality when it comes to judgment in the next age. Not everyone to be judged in the next age LOF will be judged with wrath & indignation.
Jesus only heavily reprimanded the leaders of the church, not the blind masses. We have to remember that most non-believers didn't freely choose to be non-believers, but rather they were/are blinded [Matt 13:11, John 12:40, 2 Cor 4:4].
Even those who sit in church pews each Sunday and give an 'Amen' to all the souls they believe will be cast into a literal Hell, do so out of ignorance. Almost all would repent just as fast as Paul if there minds were opened at any time.
Those who know the truths of God, but deny them for their own personal gain, will be the ones judged with wrath & indignation. Not because they freely chose to me stubborn, but like Pharaoh, God has hardened their hearts to show His great signs & wonders [Ex 7:1-3].
This is the conclusion I've been led to believe, too. I recall the time when Jesus saved the adulteress woman from being stoned, and the time He spoke with the woman who had been married 5 times and now was living with a man she wasn't married to. Neither time did He rebuke them, but instead showed great mercy to one, and revealed Who He was to the other. But then compare these with how He spoke with the Pharisees and Sadducees. He never hesitated to expose any of their flaws, and He did it out in the streets, the synagogues, the houses... in public for all to see! The message He was sending is so clear to me now, that it's amazing that I didn't see it before, and even more amazing that millions of "professing" believers don't see it!
But all in God's Timing. :)
Daywalker 8)