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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: nightmare sasuke on March 22, 2006, 03:29:42 AM
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From the very beginning, man was born into the law:
Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying [because it would defy the law, the rule, which Yahweh defined].
Merriam-Webster defines law thus: “A binding custom or practice of a community … a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority [in this case, Yahweh] … a rule of construction or procedure.�
Merriam-Webster, moreover, defines rule as: “a prescribed guide for conduct or action …�
Yahweh’s commandment advising Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil was a rule, a law. Thus, Adam and Eve—created from corruptible dust in the form of nakedness (sin)—were born into the law.
What does Paul have to say about laws, and rules?
Rom 4:15 for the law is producing indignation. Now where no law is, neither is there transgression.�
Adam and Eve were never “perfect,� for they were under the law in the beginning, and where the law is, transgression lurks also; if you know law, you know sin; if you know good then you know evil (thus why the fruits of good and evil are produced from one tree).
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That rocks Nightmare!! 8)
Peace to you in CHrist,
Erich
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From the very beginning, man was born into the law:
Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying [because it would defy the law, the rule, which Yahweh defined].
Merriam-Webster defines law thus: “A binding custom or practice of a community … a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority [in this case, Yahweh] … a rule of construction or procedure.�
Merriam-Webster, moreover, defines rule as: “a prescribed guide for conduct or action …�
Yahweh’s commandment advising Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil was a rule, a law. Thus, Adam and Eve—created from corruptible dust in the form of nakedness (sin)—were born into the law.
What does Paul have to say about laws, and rules?
Rom 4:15 for the law is producing indignation. Now where no law is, neither is there transgression.�
Adam and Eve were never “perfect,� for they were under the law in the beginning, and where the law is, transgression lurks also; if you know law, you know sin; if you know good then you know evil (thus why the fruits of good and evil are produced from one tree).
That's pretty poor exegesis.
I must ask a question before commenting further...
1. Did God originally create any imperfect being?
2. How can Jesus be described as the "second Adam" if Adam was created sinful?
Brandon
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Boy, All that from a couple of verses, one question, if they were naked and were not ashamed so are you saying that they were not ashamed of sin and I cant seem to read were he says that the dust of curruptable.
Well I guess the children of man or children of men seems to alway put the cart before the horse. Now some say that to be with God one needs to be purified, for you have to be pure to be in the presents of God I dont know but they hanged with him. Good justifing ones inperfection like a teenager saying well my parents wernt perfect, thats why. Sin was introduced to perfection, not perfection introducef to sin. But if you really want to know what happend in the Garden I would say one could study the Song of Solomon, and a little in Job.
Peace be with You.
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From the very beginning, man was born into the law:
Gen 2:16 And instructing is Yahweh Elohim the human, saying, "From every tree of the garden, you are to eat, yea, eat.
Gen 2:17 Yet from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, you are not to be eating from it, for in the day you eat from it, to die shall you be dying [because it would defy the law, the rule, which Yahweh defined].
Merriam-Webster defines law thus: “A binding custom or practice of a community … a rule of conduct or action prescribed or formally recognized as binding or enforced by a controlling authority [in this case, Yahweh] … a rule of construction or procedure.�
Merriam-Webster, moreover, defines rule as: “a prescribed guide for conduct or action …�
Yahweh’s commandment advising Adam and Eve not to eat of the tree of good and evil was a rule, a law. Thus, Adam and Eve—created from corruptible dust in the form of nakedness (sin)—were born into the law.
What does Paul have to say about laws, and rules?
Rom 4:15 for the law is producing indignation. Now where no law is, neither is there transgression.�
Adam and Eve were never “perfect,� for they were under the law in the beginning, and where the law is, transgression lurks also; if you know law, you know sin; if you know good then you know evil (thus why the fruits of good and evil are produced from one tree).
That's pretty poor exegesis.
I must ask a question before commenting further...
1. Did God originally create any imperfect being?
2. How can Jesus be described as the "second Adam" if Adam was created sinful?
Brandon
1. “1. Did God originally create any imperfect being?� From our human-like standpoint, why, yes he did--Satan:
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (KJV).
Some people foolishly believe Satan was once Lucifer (a word, which is not in the Hebrew manuscripts) However, if Satan had "free will," he WOULD CONTAIN TRUTH, he just would not be choosing to embrace it. To choose between good and evil, you must first have some good in you, but Satan HAS NO TRUTH (good) IN HIM, so he couldn't have chose even if he wanted to. By the way, Jesus said "murderer from the beginning," and not "became a murderer after he, with his God-will-defying free will, chose to be evil even though he had no reason to."
By the way, God created Satan FOR A PURPOSE:
Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy" (KJV).
2. "How can Jesus be described as the "second Adam" if Adam was created sinful?" What do you mean? Christ was born into the flesh, naked, in a corruptible body, BUT HE OVERCAME IT, because he is the Son of God; Christ had to overcome his flesh, to fulfill God's will, and the prophecies, just like Adam had to sin in his body, to fulfill God's will.
Do you mean to suggest God wanted Adam and Eve to live in natural bodies for the rest of their lives? I DO NOT THINK SO! It was always God’s plan for us to be “sown a natural body; [and be] raised a spiritual body� (1Co 15:44).
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Laren, don't we come into contact daily with those who are "alive in the flesh" who have no internal "warring"? They are at peace with the beast? I believe Mike was being literal where Paul's statement is spiritual. Remember flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so Adam was predestined to die, it is part of his and our ongoing "creation" spiritually into sons of God. I think Paul explains this in more detail later in the chapter.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Joe
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Laren, don't we come into contact daily with those who are "alive in the flesh" who have no internal "warring"? They are at peace with the beast? I believe Mike was being literal where Paul's statement is spiritual. Remember flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so Adam was predestined to die, it is part of his and our ongoing "creation" spiritually into sons of God. I think Paul explains this in more detail later in the chapter.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Joe
Interesting way to look at it, "alive in the flesh". no internal warring, at peace with the beast". Seems like a good explanation at this time, I'll do more thinking. Thanks.
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I understand Adam and Eve had to be unperfect and they had to have lust in there heart along with disobiendient. I mean like ray says the major doctrine is wrong, i mean they have to be. I mean they dont have a clue. I mean anyone else in the garden would of done the same thing. They have to be wrong for me to be right. Is that the rational. My question if why a Son of God in which Adam is would do that. If all would strive with the common thread that All religions basiclly believe in the same Father,Supreme Being, Alla, Most High. The Major Churchs are right along with anyone who knows Jesus the Christ is the Beloved Son of the Most High His Father, the only Creator there is. I still say in the Song of Solomon and Job is were what happen in that Garden is plus alot more.
Peace be with You.
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A couple of points here. It true Adam was not perfect, but the Original Sin is Satan's. The Original sin is Pride.
Genesis 3:4But the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die,(B)
5For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing the difference between good and evil and blessing and calamity.
Also the woman was Adam, and she was not named Eve until after they had both eaten of the tree, and been confronted by God.
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My question if why a Son of God in which Adam is would do that.
Adam was marred clay in the Potter's hands, just as we all are.
(Jer 18:4-6....Rom 8:20)
He had to eat from the tree. It wasn't some fabled free will choice.
(Eph 1:11)
22 ¶ And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and live for ever:
It doesn't say that Adam chose to become one of us!
Those that are called will eat, or are still eating of that tree. (drinking...Milk of the Word, or another Jesus)
(2 Cor 11:4)
The law of Moses is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
The chosen have eaten from the tree and are now eating spiritual food. (MEAT....the doctrines of Christ)
(Heb 5&6....2 John 9)
Peace,
Alan
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Laren, don't we come into contact daily with those who are "alive in the flesh" who have no internal "warring"? They are at peace with the beast? I believe Mike was being literal where Paul's statement is spiritual. Remember flesh will not inherit the Kingdom of God, so Adam was predestined to die, it is part of his and our ongoing "creation" spiritually into sons of God. I think Paul explains this in more detail later in the chapter.
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
Joe
Interesting way to look at it, "alive in the flesh". no internal warring, at peace with the beast". Seems like a good explanation at this time, I'll do more thinking. Thanks.
Hello again Laren, the way I understand it until the conversion process begins there isn't a warring with the flesh (it is not dying daily), it is embraced and glorified as getting in touch with your inner self or as enhancing your self esteem and the beast is fed with only the very best that can be afforded by carnal man.
Churches teach that puny man (the beast) can thwart God's will and force Him into a "plan B" (Jesus death & resurrection) with only man (the beast) being in control of the destiny of mankind, God's attempt at creating perfect creatures failed miserably the first two attempts He made, first with satan then with man. Not only can't this god create perfection on his first try but needs man to give his beastly consent. To me this is the height of audacity and self centered delusion, which we all must pass through to some degree and at some point.
Now schools are instructing children in self esteem, before they have even accomplished anything worthwhile, like anyone needs instruction in self centeredness or selfishness (the flesh is alive!), I have seen many products of this philosophy entering the workforce where respect is seen as an entitlement and not earned. The beast is becoming even larger and more ferocious as time moves forward.
Joe
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I understand Adam and Eve had to be unperfect and they had to have lust in there heart along with disobiendient. I mean like ray says the major doctrine is wrong, i mean they have to be. I mean they dont have a clue. I mean anyone else in the garden would of done the same thing. They have to be wrong for me to be right. Is that the rational. My question if why a Son of God in which Adam is would do that. If all would strive with the common thread that All religions basiclly believe in the same Father,Supreme Being, Alla, Most High. The Major Churchs are right along with anyone who knows Jesus the Christ is the Beloved Son of the Most High His Father, the only Creator there is. I still say in the Song of Solomon and Job is were what happen in that Garden is plus alot more.
Peace be with You.
What do you mean by that last sentence?
I don't understand at all how you could see the garden in the Song of Solomon?
Brandon
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
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The Fathers perfect Plan
In order for growth and maturity to take place, there must be an opposing force that resists or contradicts its opposite. For example, a muscle in the human body cannot grow unless there is a resistance or force applied to that muscle. This resistance first weakens the muscle actually breaking it down; however, with rest and proper nutrition, the muscle grows bigger and stronger. A child cannot understand what cold is until they touch something that is hot--they learn and become wiser by experiencing the opposite. Applying this to the spiritual, good cannot truly be understood until the effects of evil are seen and experienced. Obedience means nothing to us, until we see the results of disobedience. We cannot understand the holiness of God until we see the ravages and effects of hatred and selfishness in our lives and in the world around us. This is the “Law of Opposites� and it is the learning process that God has ordained for us. All we need to do is look at our own experiences to see if this is true. Does not a sunrise give us a great sense of peace and security only because we have experienced the loneliness and fear of the night? Can anyone really appreciate the joys of life until we have tasted the sorrows of death? Do we not appreciate the sweetness of His grace only because the law first condemned us? Is not the Cross of Christ embraced by us because we were first separated from God by our own sin? We must experience the evil in order to appreciate the good!
When Adam gained the knowledge of good and evil, he gained resistance that would also grow him up. You can only build muscle by repetitive motion against resistance. Adam was innocent and immature. He now could experience the power of love against the power of evil. He now had something to “overcome.� He would find that he could only be an “overcomer� by the infinite mercy of God found in Jesus Christ. In this, he would have the experience of knowing the love his Creator had for him, by the depth He would go to save and restore him. He could also build spiritual muscle by carrying the disciple’s cross. This is why Paul cries out in Rom. 11:33, “Oh the depth of the riches of both the wisdom and knowledge of God!� What a master plan!
Adam was created in the image of God, but that does not mean he possessed the knowledge of his Creator. A child is created in the image of his or her parents, but that doesn’t mean they are exactly like them. They may look like them and have some of the same mannerisms, but they do not possess the same knowledge and wisdom that their parents do. Parents cannot pass those things onto their children at birth. While children certainly inherit physical traits from their parents, the knowledge of good and evil is not one of them. This has to come through a long process whereby their offspring learn by their own trials and experiences—their own triumphs and failures. It was no different with Adam and Eve. God had a plan for Adam (man) that would involve a long process of struggle (good versus evil) in order for him (mankind) to be brought into full maturity (sonship).
God made a tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He made it pleasing to look at. He didn’t place it in some remote place in the garden, but right in the center of man’s reach. There was no fence around it, nor were there cherubs with a flaming sword to guard it (until after Adam sinned). On top of all that, God allowed a tempter in the garden to be an adversary to Adam.
God created man and as owner of man, He holds Himself ultimately responsible. God’s own law (which He cannot violate) proves this. In Exodus 21:33-34, God gives laws for landowners. If a landowner digs a pit on his own land and fails to cover it up, and an animal falls in and dies , the owner of the land shall make restitution to the animal’s owner. The landowner then gets the rights to the dead animal (all souls belong to Him—Ez. 18:4).
So God made a pit in the garden (the tree) and failed to cover it up. Adam, unable to discern the difference between good and evil because of ignorance, fell into the pit by eating of the tree. So in accordance with God's very own law, He was responsible to make it right—and make it right He did! God’s restitution to man was none other than the blood of His own dear Son, and in this way He provided the only avenue of escape from this pit of death. As Creator of man, “all souls belong to Him,� and so God, being the owner of all that is in the world did the only thing a responsible owner could do—take the responsibility of restoration upon His own shoulders.
God’s responsibility as landowner is ultimately greater than the choices of men, and because of this, God sent His only Son to reverse the damage that had been caused by Adam.
As in Adam, all die, so in Christ, all shall be made alive. (1 Cor. 15:22)
If God holds us personally responsible for Adam’s sin, then God is guilty of the biggest injustice in the history of the world. First, He sets up a chessboard that is impossible to overcome (the tree, the seductive beauty of it, and the tempter), and then as a result of Adam’s inevitable choice, He declares that most of His creatures will be lost forever. My dear friends, this goes against the very nature of God as love, His power to save all, and His ultimate responsibility to fix (not just provide a way) for man’s confused and lost state. According to modern theology, Christ did not fix the problem caused by Adam’s sin—He simply paves a way so that if a man chooses Christ by His own “free� will, then his own personal sin problem is cured. However, this clearly contradicts Paul’s universal thrust in Romans 5:12-18, 1 Cor. 15:22-28, Phil. 2:10,11, and all throughout the Scriptures
Excerpt from Ken Ekerty
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
:D :D
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.
2. Further than that, innocence is perfection. Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.
Brandon
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Hi Brandon,
Nothing to do with this topic, just wanted to say nice to see you back again.
Hope all is well with you and yours
Grace and peace
Nelson
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I second the welcome! Nice to see you again.
I guess the question to consider is "What does it mean that Christ is the second Adam?"
Brandon, I think you're arguing that Adam was created perfect because Jesus is perfect? Is there scriptural basis for that?
Sonia
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.
2. Further than that, innocence is perfection. Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.
Brandon
You miss understand me, by the two Adams I meant Adam and Eve, as they are both Adam, tell they eat of the fruit. Jesus is a Separate person From Adam. I nave call Jesus Adam. They are both the son of God, but no two brother are the same.
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You miss understand me, by the two Adams I meant Adam and Eve, as they are both Adam, tell they eat of the fruit. Jesus is a Separate person From Adam. I nave call Jesus Adam. They are both the son of God, but no two brother are the same.
Hi rvhill,
I'm not sure where you're coming from, but the reference to Christ as the second Adam is from scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Sonia
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You miss understand me, by the two Adams I meant Adam and Eve, as they are both Adam, tell they eat of the fruit. Jesus is a Separate person From Adam. I nave call Jesus Adam. They are both the son of God, but no two brother are the same.
Hi rvhill,
I'm not sure where you're coming from, but the reference to Christ as the second Adam is from scripture:
1 Corinthians 15:45 Thus it is written, "The first man Adam became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
Sonia
I know that. If you wish I will change it to the first 2 Adams, for Eve was Adam also. she was a part of the first Adam.
Adam and Jesus are both First man, Adam came first and Jesus came second. This thread was asking about the first Adam being perfect.
When I was talking about the two Adams. I was talking about the man and woman. Who were both Adam. After they are confronted by God the man rename the woman Eve. Before that the woman was just the woman, and both were Adam.
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.
2. Further than that, innocence is perfection. Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.
Brandon
First of all, being innocent (having no knowledge of good and evil) is the antithesis of being in the image of God. We are being made in God's image (Genesis 1:27), and to be in his image, we must have knowledge of good and evil:
Gen 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil…� (CLV).
Are you trying to imply God is creating man in his image, yet at the same time wants man to not “become as� him, and comprehend good and evil? God put the fruits of good and evil in the same tree for a reason, trust me.
God obviously is not innocent in the sense that Adam and Eve were or else he would not have had the ability or knowledge to create both good and evil:
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things� (CLV).
…
Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it [Adam and Eve had to have an expierence of evil to be HUMBLED BY IT!]� (CLV).
Again, we’re being made in his image, part of that is COMING TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF WHAT GOOD AND EVIL IS. To imply God did not purpose Adam and Eve to eat the fruit, is to imply that God does not WANT MAN TO BE IN HIS IMAGE.
If you're right, moreover, and Adam and Eve were perfect in their degraded, heart containing, dust made bodies then why was Jesus raised a spiritual body? Why will we ALL be raised spiritual bodies? If human flesh is so "perfect," then why did Jesus have to overcome it, and be freed from it by death, and resurrection? Do you mean to suggest Adam and Eve living in the flesh was part of God’s overall purpose? You probably think Adam and Eve had free will, don’t you? Well, even if Adam and Eve had free will, God was still responsible, for he created them with HEARTS, and what does Jesus have to say about hearts? Mar 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,� (KJV). Free will, or no free will, God gave Adam and Eve hearts, and KNEW AHEAD OF TIME (I’m sure you will not argue with me there), that they would give in to the evil that dwells within the flesh of the heart.
You said, “Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.� Jesus’ spirit was perfect, for he is the son of God, but he had to be born into a flesh and earthy body, and be tempted like all humans; the difference is, Jesus being the son of God, overcame his flesh. “The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven� (1Co 15:47, KJV). Adam was born in the image of the Earth, and was IMPERFECT! However, Jesus came in the FLESH (earthy) but had the spirit of God, which allowed him, by the will of God, to OVERCOME the flesh. Jesus’ body WAS NOT perfect, nor are any human bodies, but Jesus’ spirit and personality, nevertheless, was perfect and overcame the flesh TO FULFILL God’s will, and the prophecies, unlike Adam and Eve who HAD TO SIN for all Adam to come to the knowledge of good and evil, thus being made in God’s image.
1Co 15:49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly� (CLV).
Do you believe what the scriptures say, that we are all born in the image of the earth, and not God? GOD IS MAKING US into his image, and part of that, involves coming to the knowledge of good and evil! This involves being born into the flesh, which is Earthy.
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Ok, Adam mean first man. The man and woman were the first man of the flesh. Jesus was the first man of spirit. The man and woman were the first Adam, the Adam of the flesh. Jesus was the second Adam, the Adam of the spirit. The flesh lead to death, and the spirit lead to life.
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Basically, Jesus was an example for the elect. ALL ELECT will experience what Jesus went through (save being perfect from beginning to end). Jesus' death and resurrection was an example and symbol for the future. We all will die, and be raised in the resurrection. It was only fair that the judge of the world would die, and be resurrected, if he himself would be resurrecting people!
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Hi Brandon,
Nothing to do with this topic, just wanted to say nice to see you back again.
Hope all is well with you and yours
Grace and peace
Nelson
Likewise.
Thank you Nelson. Good to see you as well.
Brandon
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I need to understand the general conception regarding the reason that Adam and Eve could not possibly be created perfect. Here's the concise version of what I'm hearing:
If it was in God's plan that Adam and Eve live in sin, then they could not possibly have been created perfect or else the Tree of Life would not be tempting to them, for temptation only occurs in the carnal mind (carnal is a word that tends to be overabused and misunderstood on this board also, but that's another discussion).
Am I right in my assessment?
Brandon
The two Adams were both made innocent, and they had no shame. It does not say they were perfect.
1. Jesus had to be perfect...otherwise his sacrifice is invalidated.
2. Further than that, innocence is perfection. Innocence must be sinlessness, which is perfection.
Brandon
First of all, being innocent (having no knowledge of good and evil) is the antithesis of being in the image of God. We are being made in God's image (Genesis 1:27), and to be in his image, we must have knowledge of good and evil:
Your definition of innocence is flawed. Innocent means not guilty of transgression of a given set of laws or rules. There I rest my case with innocence. Until this fundamental, foundational definition is fixed, there is no point in addressing the further arguments.
Brandon
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I thought by the word innocence you were implying "Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance" (Dictionary.com). Sorry about that.
Either way, Adam and Eve were not created innocent in the sense you used the word. Adam and Eve did not disobey God's law in an obvious or specific manner in the very beginning, but they had already disobeyed God's law in their hearts (remember...what Jesus said about hearts?) by lusting the fruit. For from the beginning they were created from dust, with hearts. Remember what Jesus said about hearts? They always possessed natural sin (nakedness) but they just didn't realize it until after they ate from the tree. We can’t put on clothes, until we realize we’re naked.
You should try to address my points, nevertheless, and in spite of my misunderstanding of how you intended the word innocence to be interpreted.
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I have not read every single post in this thread, so I apologize if this information was already given.
What I want to point out is that Adam and Eve became aware of their nakedness after they ate from the tree. And their realization of their nakedness is what made them ashamed. It was not the fact that they had disobeyed that caused them to feel shame.
It's important to remember that Adam and Eve were created naked, so in essence, they were created in a shameful state. It was their disobedience which opened up their eyes to the nakedness that they already had.
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I agree, Joey Porter.
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I thought by the word innocence you were implying "Lack of knowledge or understanding; ignorance" (Dictionary.com). Sorry about that.
Either way, Adam and Eve were not created innocent in the sense you used the word. Adam and Eve did not disobey God's law in an obvious or specific manner in the very beginning, but they had already disobeyed God's law in their hearts (remember...what Jesus said about hearts?) by lusting the fruit. For from the beginning they were created from dust, with hearts. Remember what Jesus said about hearts? They always possessed natural sin (nakedness) but they just didn't realize it until after they ate from the tree. We can’t put on clothes, until we realize we’re naked.
You should try to address my points, nevertheless, and in spite of my misunderstanding of how you intended the word innocence to be interpreted.
If the premise is wrong, there is no point in addressing the following argument. Would you trust a house built on a shoddy foundation?
As to what you said about the heart...we read that "the heart is deceitful above all things." However, this is a condition of the post-Fall heart, not of the pre-Fall heart. Anything Jesus had to say about the human heart is post-Fall and does not apply to Adam and Eve prior to the entering of sin into the world.
In the Creation narrative, the "nakedness" of man does not refer to his sinfulness. That is a grave misinterpretation. The point of shame entering following the partaking of the fruit is that sin perverts what is natural.
Brandon
P.S. - Show me scripture that says they lusted after the fruit prior to the temptation by the serpent.
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I have not read every single post in this thread, so I apologize if this information was already given.
What I want to point out is that Adam and Eve became aware of their nakedness after they ate from the tree. And their realization of their nakedness is what made them ashamed. It was not the fact that they had disobeyed that caused them to feel shame.
It's important to remember that Adam and Eve were created naked, so in essence, they were created in a shameful state. It was their disobedience which opened up their eyes to the nakedness that they already had.
Nakedness is not a shameful thing. Lust for one's wife is not a shameful thing...indeed, one should be attracted to one's wife or husband and should desire sex with that person. However, the entrance of sin perverted Adam and Eve's perception of their nakedness. They realized after eating the fruit that they were not covered and became embarassed by that. Sin perverts what God intended.
Brandon
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If the premise is wrong, there is no point in addressing the following argument. Would you trust a house built on a shoddy foundation?
The premise is not wrong if the word innocence is interpreted the way I thought you were implying it; if I am wrong, please intervene with some Scriptural evidence to support your claim that my "premise is wrong." There's always a chance I was wrong (and will be wrong), but you must show me why.
As to what you said about the heart...we read that "the heart is deceitful above all things." However, this is a condition of the post-Fall heart, not of the pre-Fall heart. Anything Jesus had to say about the human heart is post-Fall and does not apply to Adam and Eve prior to the entering of sin into the world.
Post some Scripture to back all that up.
Specifically, you state, "Anything Jesus had to say about the human heart is post-Fall and does not apply to Adam and Eve prior to the entering of sin into the world." Yes, sin (the missing of the mark) was not in the world before Adam and Eve; however, the evil that led to the sin was! If evil did not exist (which led to the sin) before Adam and Eve sinned then how do you explain the serpent existing? He was certainly evil: a murderer from the beginning, a waster created to destroy. God created light and darkness in the beginning, not just light; the fruits of GOOD and EVIL in one tree. Do you mean to suggest that evil did not exist before Adam and Eve ate from the tree of good and evil? Well then what in the world was the fruit of evil God CREATED? Certainly not good, as understood under the sun.
In the Creation narrative, the "nakedness" of man does not refer to his sinfulness. That is a grave misinterpretation.
Do you have any Scriptures to back that up? I have some Scriptures to show you that explain nakedness is indeed a symbol of sin (however, I’m currently in a rush, so if I misuse some of these Scriptures, point it out and let me know):
Rom 8:35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
...
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
...
2Ch 28:19 For the LORD brought Judah low because of Ahaz king of Israel; for he made Judah naked, and transgressed sore against the LORD.
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Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
...
Ecc 5:15 As he came forth of his mother's womb, naked shall he return to go as he came, and shall take nothing of his labour, which he may carry away in his hand.
...
Lam 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.
...
Eze 16:22 And in all thine abominations and thy whoredoms thou hast not remembered the days of thy youth, when thou wast naked and bare, and wast polluted in thy blood.
Eze 16:23 And it came to pass after all thy wickedness, (woe, woe unto thee! saith the Lord GOD;)
...
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me [he was born naked, remember?]
Tell me, if being naked was a good thing, why did Adam and Eve have need to cover themselves, with their newfound knowledge of good and evil? (obviously, their nakedness was evil, because they realized it needed to be covered! THEY HAD KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL! THIS KNOWLEDGE GAVE THEM UNDERSTANDING THAT THEIR NAKEDNESS WAS WRONG!). If nakedness was not a symbol of sin, then what was the significance of the realization of their nakedness? Why did they cover it? They were always naked, but when they realized what evil was, they realized their nakedness had to be covered, because it was Earthy, and evil! CARNAL!
The point of shame entering following the partaking of the fruit is that sin perverts what is natural.
You make it sound like Adam and Eve being "natural", as in being born from dust, with a human heart, in the form of nakedness, in the image of "earthy," was a good thing. It's certainly not good! If it were good, there would be NO NEED for a resurrection; there would be no need for humans to be raised in spiritual bodies. In fact, if being born in the flesh were a good or perfect thing, then the spiritual messengers would have been created in the flesh. But they weren't, were they? Neither was Jesus, was he? Was Jesus created in a natural body in the beginning? No. I wonder why? Because FLESH AND BLOOD CANNOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD! (1Co 15:50) Do you mean to suggest Adam and Eve were an exception? That God, I don't know, decided, "flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, or understand spiritually discerned things, but I'll just make an exception with Adam and Eve, but I know they'll screw up, nevertheless, I gave them a 'gift' called free will, so they can make a fool of me and my purpose, because they will it."
P.S. - Show me scripture that says they lusted after the fruit prior to the temptation by the serpent.
Unfortunately, there is no verse I know of that shows Adam and Eve lusted the fruit before temptation, but the point is they were naked before they ate the fruit, and they were created from dust. They were not finished, nor perfect. If God wanted them to be perfect from the beginning, he would have created them in spiritual bodies like the spiritual messengers, and he certainly would not have put good and evil in one tree, or have created Satan the tempter and allowed him to tempt them.
Nakedness is not a shameful thing. Lust for one's wife is not a shameful thing...indeed, one should be attracted to one's wife or husband and should desire sex with that person. However, the entrance of sin perverted Adam and Eve's perception of their nakedness. They realized after eating the fruit that they were not covered and became embarassed by that. Sin perverts what God intended.
You mean to suggest taking pleasure in sex is a good and holy thing? YOU MEAN TO SUGGEST “Lust for one’s wife is not …� CARNAL!? I hate to say it, but I think you are "yet carnal." Yes, God wants us to multiply, but the Scriptures also say:
"But he that is married careth for the things that are of the world, how he may please his wife" (1Co 7:33).
What do the Scriptures have to say about lusting and taking part in the things of this world? Does it say in the Scriptures that one can become one of God’s elect or disciples if he or she is pleased with the things of the world, and cares for the things of the world? You’ll have to show me! However, I do know of verses that say to reject the things of the world, and not to “careth for the things that are of the world [to become one of God’s elect]�, such as:
Mar 4:19 And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.
...
Rom 12:2 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
...
Jam 4:4 Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
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1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
Jesus also says:
Luk 14:26 If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple.
Lusting a woman, married or not married, is no better than lusting the fruit of good and evil, eating it, or not eating it, because it is "yet carnal!"
PS. If I state any obvious heresies, please forgive me, it's very late, and I didn't have as much time as I wished for to complete this post.
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Nightmare, some great points there, but you seem to think that it was evil that man was created carnal ...... but didn't God say that His creation was "good"?
Also, on the issue of sex between a husband and wife, from reading your post, one would get the idea that all things carnal are evil. I don't think those two words are synonomous--carnal and evil that is. If that's what you're saying, can you show evidence for that? Now I do agree that lust can be evil even in the context of marriage--if it is essentially selfish and not of love. But it also depends on what exactly you are meaning by the word. If one is speaking merely of sexual desire for one's spouse, how can that be evil? Carnal, yes--for it is of the flesh (which is what carnal means), but not evil---otherwise how could it be that God blessed them and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply (Gen 1)?
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I was leaning more toward carnal, sorry if I used "evil" in the wrong context. My point is that disciples are not supposed to be carnal, especially when it involves the lust of the flesh.
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Original sin, what is it?
Is it what the churches have been teaching us, that Adam disobeyed God and brought sin into the world?
OR
Was sin already in the world before Adam disobeyed God?
Disobedience is a manifestation of SIN that was/is already in the heart of man.
SIN was already in man before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The knowledge of good and evil is the law, so let’s look at that first so we can understand what happened in the garden of Eden.
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.
Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.
There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there an actual tree that gives us knowledge.
The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.
What is this tree that can bring death to man?
Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is?
The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world.
Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.
Now the scriptures say God made a help meet for man.
Please read the garden story and see if you can see anywhere how mans help meet helped him.
According to church knowledge Eve did not help Adam but dragged him into SIN by giving him the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
So was God wrong to call Eve a help meet for Adam?
Of course not, Eve did exactly what God created her to do, she helped Adam by giving him the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Now you’re probably asking yourself how can giving Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil be of help to him.
Let’s look back at what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is (the law) and what the law does.
The law reveals SIN to man, without the law man would not know that he was a sinner.
Adam was created in SIN but did not know that he was, thus God created a help meet for Adam. Eve by giving Adam of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil helped Adam realize that he was a sinner in need of a redeemer.
To understand this we need to look at what Paul says about Adam in 1 Cor.15
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.
1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.
The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.
1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.
1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.
1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.
Now in conclusion Paul says
1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.
Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.
God bless.
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Original sin, what is it?
Is it what the churches have been teaching us, that Adam disobeyed God and brought sin into the world?
OR
Was sin already in the world before Adam disobeyed God?
Disobedience is a manifestation of SIN that was/is already in the heart of man.
SIN was already in man before he ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
The knowledge of good and evil is the law, so let’s look at that first so we can understand what happened in the garden of Eden.
The law is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Two trees in the garden both a figure of the true.
Tree of life a figure of Jesus Christ our tree of life.
Tree of knowledge of good and evil a figure of the law.
There is no actual tree that gives life nor is there an actual tree that gives us knowledge.
The law or tree of knowledge was the commandment THOU SHALT NOT.
What is this tree that can bring death to man?
Now we know that death comes because of sin RO.5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin.
Therefore we can see that it is sin that brings death to man , but what brings us the knowledge of what sin is?
The law. RO.3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Therefore the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law for by eating of the tree death entered into the world.
Now is the knowledge of good and evil ( the law ) sin RO.7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
So we can see that the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the law, for it is only by way of the law that we have the knowledge of sin.
Now the scriptures say God made a help meet for man.
Please read the garden story and see if you can see anywhere how mans help meet helped him.
According to church knowledge Eve did not help Adam but dragged him into SIN by giving him the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
So was God wrong to call Eve a help meet for Adam?
Of course not, Eve did exactly what God created her to do, she helped Adam by giving him the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Now you’re probably asking yourself how can giving Adam the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil be of help to him.
Let’s look back at what the tree of knowledge of good and evil is (the law) and what the law does.
The law reveals SIN to man, without the law man would not know that he was a sinner.
Adam was created in SIN but did not know that he was, thus God created a help meet for Adam. Eve by giving Adam of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil helped Adam realize that he was a sinner in need of a redeemer.
To understand this we need to look at what Paul says about Adam in 1 Cor.15
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? 36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
In order for man to be quickened he must die first. This is the order of arrangement of God Himself. Even or Lord and saviour had to die before He took on His glorified body.
What is true of Him is also true of every man and this includes Adam. Until Adam died he could not be quickened unto life. That is to say until our old man dies , we cannot put on our heavenly glorified body.
1 Corinthians 15:37-38
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: 38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
Now here we see a change made in the grain that is sown. The grain is not the body which shall come forth , but is bare grain. Once the grain is planted in the earth ( dies) it springs up into life. Now some may grow up to be wheat or some other grain, for the bare grain is not the plant that shall be.
Adam ,like everyone else is bare grain at first. He had to die to be quickened unto life. For only in resurrection can one put on the incorruptible body.
This bare grain is the natural body ( old man ) that must die.
The scriptures then go on to show us that there is a difference in the bodies. For God gives it the body that pleases Him.
1 Corinthians 15:39-41
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. 40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. 41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
1 Corinthians 15:42-44
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: 43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: 44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Now this natural body which Adam had and we also have is sown in corruption. For without resurrection our bodies are corrupt. In the resurrection our bodies are raised in incorruption. The natural body that Adam had and we also have is sown in dishonour , but raised in glory. Sown in weakness ,raised in power. Sown a natural body , raised a spiritual body. All these scriptures tell us that the natural body must come first ,then die to be raised a spiritual body. Only in resurrection is there a glorified body, therefore Adam had to die in order to put on a glorified body.
1 Corinthians 15:45-46
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit. 46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
Now the first man Adam was MADE a living soul, the following scripture says that the living soul is natural, or a natural body as the preceding scripture states. And this is how Adam was fashioned. This is all in contrast to Jesus Christ which was made a life giving spirit.
Living soul is also translated living creature. Soul and creature both come from the same Hebrew word nephesh.
1 Corinthians 15:47-49
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
The scriptures go on to say the first man (Adam) is of the earth, earthy and as we have borne the image of the earthy ,which image Adam had, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly. Now is the image that Adam bore that of a natural earthy body the image of God? No , this natural earthy body must die first in order to be resurrected, for only in resurrection are we given a heavenly body.
Now in conclusion Paul says
1 Corinthians 15:50-51
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
That is to say the life of the flesh ( that Adam and we have) cannot inherit the kingdom of God.
This life of the flesh must die first for corruption cannot inherit incorruption.
We must all be changed.
The bare grain (Adam) that was first planted, is not the body that shall be.
That which thou sowest is not quickened EXCEPT IT DIE.
Adam could not have had this incorruptible body , or he would not have been able to die.
That which is born of God CANNOT sin.
God bless.
Awesome post. Thanks.