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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: hillsbororiver on July 06, 2007, 01:53:35 PM

Title: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 06, 2007, 01:53:35 PM

This morning I was reading the "Contradictions" thread and a verse Beau & Darren posted jumped off the page at me.

1Co 2:7  But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (KJV)

At first it was the translation of 'world' for 'ages' as I remembered Rotherham's to say, when I consulted my Rotherham's bible another quirk of translation struck me.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom, in a sacred secret, that hidden [wisdom] which God marked out beforehand, before the ages, for our glory. (Rotherham's)

A sacred secret! A bit more profound than 'mystery' don't you think? 

In contemporary English the word mystery has come to mean incomprehensible, beyond understanding, unknowable (look it up) while sacred secret (Gr. mustarion)  means something that while outside of our range of natural apprehension (hidden) it can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God.

Before creation God planned for only a few to know His secrets, to know His Truth, to know the real Messiah, Jesus Christ! Not a man made version but the true Creator and Saviour of all men!

What a humbling yet incredibly exciting thing to contemplate, something we should really think about when we are troubled by family and friends not being able to grasp the things we clearly see now. We just cannot change anyone's mind in regard to these sacred secrets!

It is quite apparent that while Strong's definition of mustarion touches on the 'sacred secret' it emphasizes the 'mystery' which loses some of the real impact of this (and many others) verse. When seeing the Word mystery again as you study try interjecting sacred secret in its place or get a hold of a Rotherham's Version as another study aid.

Thank you Beau & Darren for spurring me on here, I also did not want to hijack the other thread!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe



Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Brett on July 06, 2007, 03:50:50 PM
Hi Joe,

I like your post. It will be good thread. I was thinking about 'secret', like Joseph and his brothers who sold him to Egyptians. If they know what is secret, they would back off and not sell their brother (Joseph) to Egyptians. Joseph did not know why it happened until their brothers came to buy food, finally he now see what God's plan purpose for. I don't know if that is fit in your post, just another idea of the story of Joseph. I think it is similar like God's chosen people to little back off anything that want to control Christendom, pagans, governments, politics, military, etc, etc. because they now know God's secret for His purpose in the world.

I'm not sure if it fit your post, but just if I have thought in my mind, say something.

Enjoy! :D

Brett

Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: UncleBeau on July 06, 2007, 04:26:13 PM
Hey Joe,

Both of those versus where 'mystery' and 'sacred secret' are found are followed by a comma and then both explained as that/the hidden wisdom. So I'm assuming that all three terms are to be seen as synonymous, correct? I agree though about a mystery and a 'sacred' secret to have different different purposes. Good post though, Joe! It gave me something to include studying along with it.
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 06, 2007, 04:57:01 PM
Hello Brett,

Your post fits perfectly, that is why the elect (types and shadows of the elect included) are 'peculiar' they just see life and events in a different 'Light' than does the world.

Hi Beau,

Think of mystery as God Himself, without beginning, without end, infinite. We just can't wrap our minds around that concept. A true mystery.

A secret is something that has yet to be revealed but when it is it is understood, take for instance if you were having a surprise party for your wife, all the guests invited would know what was happening, understanding exactly what was going to transpire, your wife would not have a clue until it was revealed to her at the time and place the party occurred.

So it is with the elect, they are given this hidden wisdom (not a mystery) at the time and place God ordains.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: eggi on July 06, 2007, 05:07:36 PM
Good food for thought, Joe!

How does Mystery Babylon fit into this?

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH. (Rev 17:5 KJV)


Perhaps there is both a positive and negative side of this?

God bless you,
Eirik
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 06, 2007, 05:17:41 PM
Hi Eirik,

I see it as an enigma, a mystery because of the confusion of her many doctrines. Worshipping a god that is impotent and not able to save his own creation even though he really wants to, he just can't. The mystery/confusion of the Word of God saying one thing and the god of Babylon saying something different.

Babylon is confusion, but those within her cannot see it. That is one of the reasons why I believe the 'mystery/(musterion)' is attached to her name, those who are called out of her see it (sacred secret from God) clearly those still partaking of her do not.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe   
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: YellowStone on July 06, 2007, 05:31:56 PM
Hi Joe,

Thanks for looking that up and posting what you found. I would agree that a 'sacred secret' does indeed cast a different shadow than simply a mystery, even although both are profound. Just to satisfy my curisosity I pulled out my Hebrew Greek Bible and it is literal word translation and the word translated Mystery is mustêriô

This word seems to denote mystery. Yet I find that I agree with what you posted regarding Rotherham's translation. I believe Sacred Sectre fits a whole lot better in the context (I know bad word) given than the word mystery. At least as how it pertains to understanding today. Because it sure is a mystery why gas prices are so high. :)

Thanks Joe,

Darren
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 06, 2007, 05:54:07 PM
Hi Darren,

Here is a bit from how and why Joseph Rotherham translated the way he did;

In Rotherham’s Emphasized Bible, Joseph B. Rotherham, who was a biblical scholar of the first rank, translated musterion as “sacred secret.” We studied the subject and have come to agree with Rotherham, and our reasoning for using “sacred secret” as the translation of the Greek word musterion is presented below.

Although many Bible versions render the Greek word musterion as “mystery,” that is not a good translation. In fact, “mystery” is a transliteration of the word musterion, not a translation of it. “Transliteration” is when the letters of a word in one language are brought across into another language. The prefix “trans” means “across,” and the Latin littera means “letter.” Thus, transliteration is literally “bringing across the letters.” In contrast, “translation” is bringing the meaning of a word in one language across into another language. If we are going to have the meaning of the Greek brought into English, we must translate, not transliterate.

Musterion: In the NT it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. Word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God.

But whereas “mystery” may mean, and in contemporary usage often does mean, a secret for which no answer can be found, this is not the connotation of the term mysterion in classical and biblical Gk. In the NT, mysterion signifies a secret which is being, or even has been, revealed, which is also divine in scope, and needs to be made known by God to men through his Spirit.

But while the musterion thus implies something hidden, and inaccessible to the unaided reason, and usually also of weighty import, it by no means necessarily denotes anything strictly mysterious and incomprehensible. The fact or truth, though requiring to be revealed, may, when revealed, be of a very elementary character.

Mystery in the NT does not deal with the unknowable, but with what is imparted by revelation.

The mystery of the New Testament has been described as an ‘open secret’; matters previously kept secret in God’s eternal purposes have now been or are being revealed (Eph. 3:3-5; 1 Cor. 2:7-8).

Numerous other sources give the same information, and the point is that the word musterion does not mean “mystery,” and should not be translated that way. Although God kept His Sacred Secret a secret for years, it has now been made known. There are a number of verses showing that a musterion can be revealed by God and understood by mankind. Because it is important to understand this point, I will quote quite a few of them.

Matthew 13:11b (KJV)
…it is given unto you to know the mysteries [musterion] of the kingdom of heaven….

Romans 16:25b and 26a (NIV)
(25b) …the mystery [musterion] hidden for long ages past,
(26a) but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God….

Ephesians 1:9 (NIV)
And he made known to us the mystery [musterion] of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ,

Colossians 1:26 (NIV)
the mystery [musterion] that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

Now that we have established that musterion does not mean “mystery,” and that a musterion can be revealed and understood, we will show why we translate it as “sacred secret” and not just “secret.” The Greek language uses musterion for secrets in the religious sphere, but has another word, kruptos, for secrets that are in the secular realm. [9] The word kruptos appears in many places in the New Testament. For example, Jesus said to give alms in secret (Matt. 6:4-KJV); he taught that every secret thing will be brought to light (Mark 4:22-KJV); he went to Jerusalem in secret (John 7:10-KJV); God will judge men’s secrets (Rom. 2:16); and, prophecy reveals the secrets of the heart (1 Cor. 14:24 and 25).

The verb krupto also appears many times in the New Testament. Examples include: a city on a hill cannot be hidden (Matt. 5:14); the wicked servant hid his talent in the ground (Matt. 25:25); a Christian’s new life is hidden with Christ in God (Col. 3:3); and, Moses’ parents hid him after he was born (Heb. 11:23).

From the above information we see that translating musterion as “secret,” which some versions do in some places, does not bring out the true meaning of the Greek text. Anyone reading the Greek New Testament immediately understands whether God is speaking of a secular secret (kruptos) or a sacred secret (musterion), and a good translation brings out that difference. When a version translates both words as “secret,” the truth that God so clearly communicated in the Greek text is lost. When translators use “secret” for kruptos and “mystery” for musterion, the words are not confused, but the English Bible is made to say something that it just does not say—that the things of God are mysterious.

Is there a way to translate kruptos and musterion such that the meaning of the Greek words is communicated clearly into English? Yes, there is. There is not one time in the New Testament where musterion cannot be fittingly translated as “sacred secret.” If we translate kruptos as “secret,” and musterion as “sacred secret,” the meaning of the Greek is communicated clearly, and we English-speaking people are in a better position to know and understand what God has said in His Word.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
 
 
 

 
 

 
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 06, 2007, 06:22:34 PM

A great find Joe! Thanks for sharing. :D

To add to Eiriks thoughts... :D

Rev 17 : 7 And the angel said unto me, Wherefore dist thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery  (sacred secret...musterion) of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.
 
For me this points to the fact that the origin and nature of evil is yet unrevealed to many. Many believe that Lucifer is a project that God got wrong and that evil is without the jurisdiction of God. God creates both good and evil but not many accept, understand or believe it! :D

Isaiah 45 : 7 ......I create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: YellowStone on July 06, 2007, 07:14:26 PM
Hi Joe,

That was an awesome find, that being the differences between Transliteration and Translation.

This also explains why my Greek bible has it wrong, for it clearly states that it is a Word for Word rendering of the Greek text.

Thank you so much for taking the time to research that and post it.

Love in Christ,

Darren
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: iris on July 06, 2007, 10:37:49 PM
I don't think I can add anything more.  :)
This is a really great thread!
Thanks everyone for sharing.


Iris
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Chris R on July 07, 2007, 09:53:31 AM
Hi Joe,

As usuall i'm struggling, maybe you can help me.


"The mystery" [this is not literal--it was a mystery until God tells us that one thing really means or represents another and DIFFERENT THING] [Ray smith]

Mystery musterion Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and the abominations of the earth." [Rev 17-5]

How do we reconcile "SACRED SECRET Babylon the great"
What is Sacred?..."to make holy", devoted or dedicated to a deity

Sometimes i can be a little dence, Looks like todays no different.

What of the riches and knowledge of God... can they be revealed?
Are some, and not others?

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [Rom 11:33]

Unto me,[Paul] who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [Eph 3:8]

Looks like its still a musterion to me...

thanks for the thread.

Chris R
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 07, 2007, 10:12:19 AM
Hi Chris,

Even though prophecies of Jesus were all through the OT His divinity was a sacred secret to Israel when He appeared on the scene, it was only when the Father opened the eyes of the apostles that they clearly saw who He really was. It was no mystery but the 'secret' had to be revealed (by God) before it was seen.

Mat 16:17  And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Luk 10:21  In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

There are Doctors of Divinity, Theology Phd.s, and religious scholars that have no clue as to what the 'sacred secret of (Mystery) Babylon is, yet we have under educated simple folks like me who can see it clearly as the seat of Satan and where this seat resides. God has been gracious enough to let me in on this secret, it has nothing to do with unraveling a 'mystery' from my own intellegence.

I hope this helps some,

His Peace to you,

Joe 
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 07, 2007, 10:39:57 AM

What a humbling yet incredibly exciting thing to contemplate, something we should really think about when we are troubled by family and friends not being able to grasp the things we clearly see now. We just cannot change anyone's mind in regard to these sacred secrets!


Actually the purpose of this topic was for those (especially newer members) who become frustrated when people just don't get the things they attempt to show them about the real Good News. We should see and understand that we are not capable of letting anyone in on God's 'secrets' until God Himself reveals them. The folks being spoken to don't really see any 'mystery' about the doctrines they believe, they only think that anyone that does not agree with them is deceived.

His Peace to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 07, 2007, 11:21:06 AM
Hi Joe,

Hello again Chris,

As usuall i'm struggling, maybe you can help me.


"The mystery" [this is not literal--it was a mystery until God tells us that one thing really means or represents another and DIFFERENT THING] [Ray smith]

Doesn't it fit to say this was God's secret until He reveals it?

Mystery musterion Babylon the Great, mother of harlots, and the abominations of the earth." [Rev 17-5]

How do we reconcile "SACRED SECRET Babylon the great"
What is Sacred?..."to make holy", devoted or dedicated to a deity

Rev 17:5 and upon her forehead a name written, a secret: Babylon the great, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the earth. (Rotherham's)

Sometimes i can be a little dence, Looks like todays no different.

What of the riches and knowledge of God... can they be revealed?
Are some, and not others?

O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out! [Rom 11:33]

Substitute 'untraceable' for 'unsearchable', unsearchable seems to imply imply that it is forbidden to search for this knowledge, untraceable says that we are presently incapable of tracking it down, it must be revealed!

[S: (adj) untraceable (incapable of being traced or tracked down) "an untraceable source"]

Rotherham's uses untraceable but even in Strong's we have;

G421
ἀνεξιχνίαστος
anexichniastos
an-ex-ikh-nee'-as-tos
From G1 (as a negative particle) and a presumed derivative of a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2487; not tracked out, that is, (by implication) untraceable: - past finding out, unsearchable.


Unto me,[Paul] who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [Eph 3:8]

Untracable is actually the primary Gr. definition,

Looks like its still a musterion to me...

thanks for the thread.

Chris R

Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Kat on July 07, 2007, 11:48:54 AM

Hi Joe,

Great topic and you have really brought out some points to consider.
I was looking at this scripture which you had posted earlier;

Col 1:26  the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

The next verse also shows what “sacred secret” mystery is;

v.27  To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I think the mystery with Babylon is that they 'think' they have Christ and will be greatly surprised when the real Christ is revealed to them.

mercy, peace, and love
Kathy

Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 07, 2007, 11:54:13 AM
Yes Kat!

God's secret between Him and His elect!  ;)

His Peace to you Sister,

Joe
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 07, 2007, 12:44:27 PM
To confirm:  :D

1 Cor 2 : 9 But as it is written, Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for them that love him.  (Mystery Babylon leaves this scripture hanging and they do not proceed to the next verses IN ORDER TO BYPASS OPPOSITION AND DISARM CRITISISM that says...) 10. But God has REVEALED THEM TO US by His Spirit:...11. What person perceives, knows and understands what passes through a man's thoughts except the man's own spirit within him? Just so NO ONE discerns, comes to know and comprehend the thoughts of God EXCPT THE SPIRIT OF GOD. 12 Now we have not received the spirit that belongs to the world, but the Spirit Who is from God, GIVEN TO US, that we might realize and comprehend and appreciate the gifts of divine favor and blessing so freely and lavishly bestowed on us by God. 13 And we are setting these truths forth in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, combining and interpreting spiritual truths with spiritual language to those who possess the Holy Spirit. 14 BUT the natural, nonspiritual man DOES NOT ACCEPT OR WELCOME OR ADMIT INTO HIS HEART THE GIFTS AND TEACHINGS AND REVELATIONS OF THE SPIRIT OF GOD for they are folly, meaningless nonsense to him; and he is INCAPABLE OF KNOWING THEM, OF PROGRESSIVELY RECOGNIZING, UNDERSTANDING, AND BECOMING BETTER ACQUAINTED WITH THEM, because they are SPIRITUALLLY DISCERNED AND ESTIMATED AND APPRECIATIED. 15 But the spiritual man TRIES ALL THINGS, HE EXAMINES, INVESTIGATES, INQUIRES INTO, QUESTIONS, AND DISCERNS ALL THINGS....... :D ;D 8).....

Lovely thread Joe! ;D :D

Peace to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Brett on July 07, 2007, 02:02:03 PM

Hi Joe,

Great topic and you have really brought out some points to consider.
I was looking at this scripture which you had posted earlier;

Col 1:26  the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the saints.

The next verse also shows what “sacred secret” mystery is;

v.27  To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

I think the mystery with Babylon is that they 'think' they have Christ and will be greatly surprised when the real Christ is revealed to them.

mercy, peace, and love
Kathy



Great comment with verses, Kat! It is very new to me ;).

Brett :D
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 08, 2007, 12:55:28 PM
Hello again,

It may seem I am beating this subject to death but the (Rotherham) translation substituting secret/sacred secret for mystery has really amplified what God is doing for a very few people in this age. The Creator of the universe is sharing a secret with the not many wise or noble, no, he has chosen the "weak things of the world to confound the mighty" (1Cor 1:26-28).

God being no respector of persons can (and does) reveal His secrets to whomever he chooses, low IQ and uneducated are just as qualified as PhD.s, with genius level IQ's.

This knowledge of Him is not some mystery to be unraveled by science or mathmatical formulas or religious Doctorates, or computer programs, this knowledge comes from the Creator of the Universe whispering into your spiritual ear. This to me makes it even more personal and more humbling.

As I stated earlier in the thread my primary purpose in bringing this topic up was the consternation of some members, notably Dean & mrsnacks when they attempt sharing the 'Good News' with family and friends, this spiritual wisdom is only obtained spiritually and all the great arguments and the scriptural references in the world will not penetrate the carnal mind until He deems it time to open their eyes and ears, we can be an example we can give an encouraging word but we cannot make anyone understand until it is their time to understand.

The following 22 verses are all verses that the KJV translates as 'mystery,' I provided the Rotherham's to compare if anyone is so inclined.      

Mark 4:11 And he was saying unto them [To you] the sacred secret hath been given, of the Kingdom of God, whereas  [to them who are outside] in parables are all things coming to pass,-that
Mark 4:12 They may surely look and yet not see, and surely hear and yet not understand, Lest once they should return , and it be forgiven them.

Romans 11:25 For I wish not, ye should be ignorant brethren of this sacred secret, Lest within yourselves ye be presumptuous, that a hardening in part hath befallen Israel, until the full measure of the nations shall come in.

Romans 16:25 Now unto him who hath power to establish you, according to my glad-message even the proclaimation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of a sacred secret, in age past times kept silent.

1Cor 2:7 But we speak God's wisdom, in a sacred secret, that hidden wisdom, which God marked out beforehand, before the ages for our glory,
 
1Cor 15:51 Lo! A sacred secret unto you do I declare: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.

Eph 1:9 Making known to us the sacred secrets of his will, according to his good pleasure which he purposed in him.

Eph 3:3 How that by way of revelation was made known unto methe sacred secret , even as I before wrote in brief.

Eph 3:4 Respecting which ye can [by reading] perceive my discernment in the sacred secret of the Christ,
 
Eph 3:9 And to bring to light-What is the administration of the sacred secret which had been hidden away from the ages in God, who did all things create,

Eph 5:32 This sacred secret is great, I however, am speaking as to Christ and as to the assembly,

Eph 6:19 That unto me may be given discourse in the opening of my mouth [with freedom of utterance] to make known the sacred secret of the glad-message.

Col 1:26 The sacred secret which had been hidden away from the ages and from the generations, but now hath been made manifest unto his saints.

Col 1:27 Unto whom God hath been pleased to make known what is the glorious wealth of this sacred secret among the nations, which is Christ in you, the hope of the glory.

Col 2:2 In order that their hearts may be encouraged, being knit together in love, even unto all the riches of the full assurance of their understanding, unto a personal knowledge of the sacred secret of God,- [Christ]

Col 2:3 In whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge hidden away.

Col 4:3 Praying, at the same time [for us also]that God would open unto us a door for the word, so we may speak the sacred secret of the Christ-for the sake of which also I am in bonds,

2Th 2:7 For the secret of lawlessness already is inwardly working itself,-only until he that restraineth at present shall be gone out of the midst:

2Th 2:8 And then shall be revealed the lawless one,-whom the Lord [Jesus] will slay with the Spirit of his mouth, and paralyse with the forthshining of his Presence:

1Ti 3:9 Holding the sacred secret of the faith in a pure conscience.

1Ti 3:16 And confessedly great is the sacred secret of godliness,- who was made manifest in flesh, was declared righteous in spirit, was made visable unto messengers, was proclaimed among nations, was believed on in the world,was taken up in glory.

Rev 1:20 The sacred secret of the seven stars which thou sawest upon my right hand, and the seven lamps of gold;- The seven stars are messengers of the seven assemblies, and the seven lamps are seven assemblies.

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the sounding of the seventh messenger as soon as he is about to blow his trumpetthen shall have been completed the sacred secret of God as he told the good-news unto his own servants the prophets.

Rev 17:5 And upon her forehead a name is written, a secret: Babylon the great has fallen, the Mother of the Harlots and of the Abominations of the earth.

Rev 17:7 And the messenger said unto me- Wherefore was thou astonished? I will tell thee the secret of the woman, and the wild beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe




Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: YellowStone on July 08, 2007, 01:21:15 PM
Thank you Joe for continuing this thread and driving home your point.

I hope that I am sharing the point you are making by what I too am discovering.

You said, and I quote:

This knowledge of Him is not some mystery to be unraveled by science or mathmatical formulas or religious Doctorates, or computer programs, this knowledge comes from the Creator of the Universe whispering into your spiritual ear. This to me makes it even more personal and more humbling.

YES!!!!!!  Science can learn enough to know there must be a God, an intelligent designer, just as I have no excuse from knowing the same by what can be seen by what God has made. There is no excuse! (Rom 1:20)

But, and this is a biggie!  I cannot come to a personal relationship with God, no matter how hard I study, read, pray and or meditate. For learning of him and about him is impossible until He Himself reveals Himself through His Spirit into my "spiritual ear"

As you said, this makes the relationship so much more personal and levels the playing field, because it is no longer one trying to understand God, but rather one being driven by his Spiritual direction and becoming as meek and mild as little children.

Mat 18:3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.   

Very profound Joe and I do hope we are on the same page with this.

Your brother in Christ,
Darren
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 08, 2007, 01:39:23 PM

I do hope we are on the same page with this.



Not only the same page but we are dotting the same i's and crossing the same t's!  ;)

Thanks Darren for the added scripture and your observations.

His Peace to you Brother,

Joe
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 08, 2007, 02:32:47 PM
To add Darren

You say : But, and this is a biggie!  I cannot come to a personal relationship with God, no matter how hard I study, read, pray and or meditate. For learning of him and about him is impossible until He Himself reveals Himself through His Spirit into my "spiritual ear"

Yes....blast of a Trumpet!!  ;D and look how Babylon claims to have a personal relationship and they offer as evidence for relationship their prayer time, study time and PH D's silk ties, tithes, Limozines and Church buildings.! ..Relationship, relationship they claim and flaunt!

What you say Darren is a biggie and hits the mark! SHOT!

We have nothing of our own accord but that which it pleases the Father to give us! lHis gifts His works and the consequence of HIS Grace on our wicked hearts making us walk in His Ways and giving to us good works to experience through His Spirit! Whew....when will we ever hear that teaching anywhere?

Beautiful thread Joe! :D

Peace be to you

Arcturus :)
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: jER on July 08, 2007, 03:29:45 PM
Touch'e - the sword of the Word.
For who can argue without concession to these points of truth!

Thanks Joe, and all for the blessing.

- jER
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: DuluthGA on July 08, 2007, 11:51:57 PM
Thank you very much for this very special insight, Joe!!!

To show that there is another source defining musterion in this light is Crosswalk's online Strongs which first says "hidden thing, secret, mystery" then says "religious secrets confided only to the initiated and not to ordinary mortals."

It captures the idea. 

I agree a lot is missed if just 'mystery or secret' is used; it sort of gives the idea that the matter will always be cloudy or we just won't know until we know.  But ah ha!  WE DO KNOW NOW, DON'T WE!!!  ;)

Thanks a million!!   Janice


Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 09, 2007, 08:22:33 AM
Thank you Arcturus & jER for your thoughts and comments!


I agree a lot is missed if just 'mystery or secret' is used; it sort of gives the idea that the matter will always be cloudy or we just won't know until we know.  But ah ha!  WE DO KNOW NOW, DON'T WE!!!  ;)


Hi Janice,

Yes we do, and it is the Lord personally revealing these secrets, how awesome is that? You summed it up very well with your above quote.

Thanks!

His Peace to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 21, 2007, 08:27:23 PM
Hello Everyone,

In some private conversations with a few members we have looked into this subject a bit further and this is more of what we found;

In the OT even the KJV does not contain the word "mystery" if ever it were to be used you would think it would be in the OT as God had not revealed Himself through Christ in the flesh yet. But it is true, do a word search on E-sword, no mystery!

We do however have "secret" in many places as well as "secrets."

Look at Daniel and Nebuchadnezzar;

Dan 2:28  But there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these;

Dan 2:29  As for thee, O king, thy thoughts came into thy mind upon thy bed, what should come to pass hereafter: and he that revealeth secrets maketh known to thee what shall come to pass.

Dan 2:47  The king answered unto Daniel and said, Of a truth it is, that your God is a God of gods and a Lord of kings, and a revealer of secrets, seeing thou couldest reveal this secret.

I would think this dream was a "mystery" if there ever was one but the truth is our God is not a God of mystery but of revelation! Of course He is the One who decides when and where and who these revelations take place with.

Can you see Daniel as a type of the elect here? Being used by God to open up the eyes of those in the 2nd resurrection who do not yet know the Living God?

Here are a few more verses;

Deu 29:29  The secret things belong unto the LORD our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

Job 15:8  Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?

Psa 25:14  The secret of the LORD is with them that fear him; and he will show them his covenant.

Pro 3:32  For the froward is abomination to the LORD: but his secret is with the righteous.

Amo 3:7  Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

Pretty powerful stuff, I think all of us have felt privileged at one time or another when a family member or a respected friend or even a person who has power over us in the earthly sense (teacher, superior at work, boss, etc.) has let us in on a secret, how much more so that the Creator of the Universe has let you in on His plan and purpose for you and all mankind?

His Peace to you,

Joe


Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 22, 2007, 08:05:23 AM
Hello Joe

You quote  : Job 15:8  Hast thou heard the secret of God? and dost thou restrain wisdom to thyself?

I see the second witness here in Luke.

Luke 12:48 But he who DID NOT KNOW and did the things worthy of a beating shall be beaten with few lashes. For everyone to whom much is given  ( is the MUCH here referring to WISDOM perhaps?) of him shall MUCH be required  ( the MUCH REQUIRED here…could this mean the endurance against persecution and suffering for being slated as the wise guy or gal?rejection, envy and harm levelled against those who do know better and then what about severe trials that humble us or “splinters in the flesh” that Paul experienced to keep him balanced? Ref http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html  I think so!)

Joe you note : our God is not a God of mystery but of revelation!

To take that view deeper we could say our God is a God of transcendence.

Ray notes : Paul’s privilege in revelations was so high (maybe almost too high) that God had to answer this exaltation with the opposite of "transcendence." Something that will humble him. Something "excessive." Something that is almost "too much." Inordinately!
God’s answer and remedy to "transcendence" is "inordinately."
Here’s proof: The word "transcendence" and the word "inordinately" are both translated from the same Greek word, "[h]uper bal’lo"!  http://bible-truths.com/splinter.html   

Would this not confirm the much required to whom the much is given as demonstrated in the life of Paul? I think yes.

As you say Joe in reference to the dream of the King : I would think this dream was a "mystery"

Could THAT observation ALSO relate to the Parable's that were spoken by Jesus to the multitudes? They were not seen as mysteries. They were considered to be understood by many who did not receive or understand that the words spoken are Spirit. The dream was not understood either yet it was received just as the parables were. Did that make it a mystery or a SECRET? I think the dream was like the parable...a mystery or was it a SECRET, because the secret/revelation was not shown or disclosed yet?  It was not at the point of REVELATION or Transcendence was it? Neither were the Parables! The Parables revealed nothing! We know this much. The Words Jesus spoke were Spirit and the carnal mind can not hear or see or know the Spirit for it is at enmity and deep seated hatred against the Spirit.

So, for me The Revelation is for US who see and hear what they did not see or hear and to whom Christ is making Himself seen and known!
 
Does true revelation bring transcendence? Is that the Hallmark? TRANSCENDENCE and buffetting by the messengers of Satan to keep us balanced through trials? I think it is! Jesus has overcome the world. Those who will know Him will have overcome, transcended the world too by His Spirit.

To support this observation, consider the following.

Ecc 3: 11 A New Translation by James Mottatt. Ref LOF 15C  “He assigned each its proper time, but for the MIND OF MAN (would this be the CARNAL mind? ) He has appointed MYSTERY...

Ray notes : Next notice the last verse of the last chapter in Ecclesiastes:
“For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good or whether it be evil” (Ecc. 12:14).
The word translated “secret” here is the Hebrew word alam. And here is what we read in Strong’s: #5956; a prim. root; to veil from sight, i.e. conceal.”
The first definition of #5760, olam is concealed; and #5760, olam is taken from #5956, alam and its definition is veil or conceal.
I went through this slightly technical explanation to prove to you the real meaning of this verse. The understanding of this verse will greatly assist our understanding of the Sovereignty of God and man’s absence of anything akin to a “free will” which could operate independently from God.
Let’s read the last version of this verse again:
“He [God] has made everything fitting [not ‘beautiful’] in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart so that the man may NOT find out His work, that which God does.”  (Ecc. 3:11).
So God has made everything that there is (even though much of it is evil, ugly, and NOT ‘beautiful,’) fitting, proper, appropriate, and suited for its own season, “but” or “however”—here comes a counter proposal, if you will. So God makes EVERYTHING proper and appropriate for His plan, however…. BUT, “…He has put OBSCURITY in their hearts…” so that, or in order that, they CANNOT know or understand what it is that He is doing to them in this human existence we call “life.” What a spiritual revelation! http://bible-truths.com/lake15-C.html

Peace to you

Arcturus :)





Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: LittleBear on July 22, 2007, 10:21:28 AM
I love this parable of Daniel and King Nebuchadnezzar. It is a sacred secret that God is revealing to His elect.

Joe, you ask the question, can you see Daniel as a type of elect here? Yes! Yes I can! I see King Nebuchadnezzar as a type of the rest of humanity that will be brought to the knowledge of God, through His Chosen ones.

I think in Daniel, God is revealing how He does this. There was no effort on Daniel's part in learning the interpretation of the king's dreams. God simply revealed it to him.

Dan 2:19 Then the secret was revealed to Daniel in a night vision.

God reveals His secrets to His elect in all sorts of ways. When I read, say the Lake of Fire series, Ray outlines things so simply, I sometimes sit back, and wonder why I never saw these things before. Sacred secrets revealed!

When you read the process that God used to humble King Nebuchadnezzar, it is a type of thing that God will do for every individual in the 2nd ressurection.  It was painful and humiliating. At the end of it all, King Neb praised and honoured God, and knew Him.

The last line in Dan chapter 4, King Neb says, "And those who walk in pride He is able to humble." He learned this from his own personal refining process.

This is all SO wonderful!

Ursula

Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: rick on July 22, 2007, 01:47:14 PM
Hey guys, I must say this is one of the best threads I have ever read since joining the forum. thanks for all the insight and may God continue to bless you with His unveiling.................rick
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: DuluthGA on July 23, 2007, 03:25:12 AM
Our God is NOT a God of mystery but of REVELATION!

Once again, thanks for your insight Joe, a BIG TIME insight and rightly so.. for..

HE CALLZ DA SHOTZ!!  ALL OF THEM!

Yes! This is very POWERFUL STUFF!!  Thank you!

Big thanks to Ursula also on the insights and REVEALING of King Neb and how his scriptural references apply to God's plan for THE ELECT and THOSE COMING AFTER!!  This is so right on

Joy, Janice  :)

Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 26, 2007, 11:48:02 AM


To take that view deeper we could say our God is a God of transcendence.

Arcturus that is an awesome way to view/describe our God and the way He communicates with His own!

Does true revelation bring transcendence? Is that the Hallmark? TRANSCENDENCE and buffetting by the messengers of Satan to keep us balanced through trials? I think it is! Jesus has overcome the world. Those who will know Him will have overcome, transcended the world too by His Spirit.

Who even knew the difference between a carnal or spiritual mind? I know that until I read about the 'Beast Within' I had no clue about this duality of mind, this bloody battle between our carnal nature and His Spirit.

Ecc 3: 11 A New Translation by James Mottatt. Ref LOF 15C  “He assigned each its proper time, but for the MIND OF MAN (would this be the CARNAL mind? ) He has appointed MYSTERY...

I actually like the way the KJV translates this verse;

Ecc 3:11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

"No man can find out" ......... until God shares His secrets!

Thank you Sister for sharing your observations,

Joe  


Ursula, Rick & Janice,

Thank you for your comments, it is amazing how when we get these little insights it gives us ways of looking at scriptures in a different Light, new meanings and nuances jump right out!

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: carol70 on July 26, 2007, 05:42:53 PM
Hi Joe,

God reveals his sacred secret to the saints, as said in Colossians 1:26:

the mystery which has been hidden from ages and from generations, but now has been revealed to His saints.

But we know from Ray's discussion on saints in LOF part 13:

-------------
WHO ARE THE SAINTS?

If the very elect can’t be deceived, is it possible for saints to be deceived? Yes, there is a difference. One can be a saint long before he becomes the VERY elect. Were the believers in Ephesus called, saints?

    "Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, TO THE SAINTS which are in Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus" (Eph. 1:1).

So, Yes, the believers in Ephesus were called saints. But were they perfect? Were they spiritually mature? Were they the VERY elect? No, they weren’t.
-------------

In Ephesians 3 and Amos 3, it says the secret is revealed to His prophets:

Eph 3:4  by which, when you read, you may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Eph 3:5  which in other ages was not made known to the sons of men, as it is now revealed to His holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit,

Amo 3:7  For the Lord Jehovah will do nothing unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.

How do the elect compare with the saints and the prophets?  I don't have the answer - maybe someone else does!  But the point that I'm trying to make is this:  Just because God chooses to reveal his secret to the saints doesn't mean that all of those saints will go on to become the very elect.  Judas comes to mind :)

2Pe 1:10  Therefore, brothers, rather be diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall never fall.

Php 2:12  Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, cultivate your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13  For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.


Peace and blessings,
Carol
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 26, 2007, 06:24:25 PM
Hi Carol,

You are absolutely correct, receiving the secrets of God does not automatically give anyone a lock on being counted among the elect, in fact knowledge, wisdom etc. in and of themselves are counted by Paul as "nothing."

1Co 13:2  And though I have the gift of prophecy and understand all mysteries (sacred secrets)  ;) and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

This is the second time I have quoted this verse in the last few minutes, hmmmmm maybe the Lord is telling me something.........

His Peace to you,

Joe   

Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: hillsbororiver on July 26, 2007, 06:40:31 PM

Hello again Carol!


How do the elect compare with the saints and the prophets? 


1Peter 1:10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

1Peter 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

1Peter 1:12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

The quote you had from Ray explained that "saints" really speaks of all men eventually, all will be holy and blameless at some future point as Sons and Daughters of God. The elect are those chosen before the foundation of the world to be with Christ as He refines, purges and harvests the Father's children. The prophets of the OT were given a glimpse of this plan of salvation but do not have a part in it, that has been reserved for those who came after the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. Even John the Baptist is not among the elect in the Kingdom.

Mat 11:11  Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

His Peace and Wisdom to you,

Joe  
 
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: carol70 on July 26, 2007, 07:34:32 PM
Thanks Joe. :)
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: LittleBear on July 27, 2007, 08:56:44 PM
Hi Carol,

Thanks for bringing this up. Just earlier today I was wondering if there was a difference between saints and the Elect. I was thinking that they were the same, so thanks for bringing up Ray's comments and clarifying this for me.

Hi Joe,

Was there any reward for the prophets in the OT? Many of them endured much. I thought they might be the elect too.

Ursula
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Kat on July 28, 2007, 03:07:43 AM

Hi Carol,

Quote
Was there any reward for the prophets in the OT? Many of them endured much. I thought they might be the elect too.

The prophets will not be in the first resurrection

http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2385.0.html --------------------------

Dear Ricardo:
    No, you aren't silly.  Actually, your are correct:  John the Baptist will not be in the Kingdom before us. And that goes for all the patriarchs of old. Heb. 11 proves that none of them received the promises to them and furthermore, it proves that they will come into the Kingdom only by and through US (See Verses 39-40).

    God be with you,
    Ray
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Heb 11:39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
v. 40  God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

All will gain salvation, but it must be through Jesus Christ.

2Co 5:18  "And all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ..."

Though the prophets did serve God, and Christ was the God of the OT, He was yet to be born as the Savior.

Rom 10:9  Because if you confess the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved.

Act 4:12  And there is salvation in no other One; for there is no other name under Heaven given among men by which we must be saved.

But if any person has good works(gold, silver, or precious stones) in this life, and I think you could certainly say that about the prophets, it remains in them.

1Cor 3:11  For any other foundation can no one lay than the one being laid, who is Jesus Christ.
v. 12  And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
v. 13  each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
v. 14  If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
v. 15  If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

So when the prophets are raised with all the rest of humanity, they still have to go through the process of repentance, and receiving the Holy Spirit and living a righteous life.  Those people in this life that developed good character traits will keep them and the wood, hay, stubble will be burned away, however long and however many stripes it takes.  I would think the process may be very short for some, like John the Baptist.

Isa 26:9  With my soul I desired You in the night; yea, with my spirit within me I will seek You early; for when Your judgments are in the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness.

mercy, peace, and love
Kat


Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 28, 2007, 06:36:52 AM

http://bible-truths.com/twelve.htm

Hebrews was written at least a whole generation after the crucifixion and resurrection of our Lord, and at that time the saints of old had not yet received their promises, so guess what? They are all still dead in their graves awaiting the Second Resurrection, as they cannot be made perfect or complete except though those who come up in the First resurrection.
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: LittleBear on July 28, 2007, 09:18:38 AM
Thanks Kat and Arcturus,

Love,

Ursula
Title: Re: Sacred Secrets
Post by: Deborah-Leigh on July 28, 2007, 09:56:54 AM
You are very welcome Ursula

Peace to you

Arcturus :)