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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Dennis Vogel on February 21, 2012, 03:19:32 PM
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New article on the home page: http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm (http://bible-truths.com/Creed.htm)
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Great!!! I love it. I get it. Easy to remember. ;D
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I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and
I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography
That's it. It's all in there. It'll come to you. Just meditate on it a few years!
I thought this was interesting as I had forgotten which was which:
found on wiki.answers.com An auto-biography is a highly subjective,personalised account of one's life. A biography is a third party,objective analysis of someones life. Biography is king as it's written by a 3rd party and is warts and all story,not just the good bits.
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The biography is written as man's view as he sees God. The autobiography is a glimpse of what is written by God Himself through Christ. Which may help explain the gulf between the old and new testaments.
Craig
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1 Corinthians 8:6
"...for us...one God: the Father...and...Jesus..."
John 10:30
"I (Jesus) and My Father are one."
I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography. ---Ray Smith---
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I personally think it is silly to demand that someone list a creed. It proves nothing. Anyone can say anything, it is another thing to live it and experince it. If you can't get what Ray's creed is by reading his material, how is some sort of list of beliefs going to help them? And words never will do justice for such deep subjects anyhow. And then of course there is the problem of writing a perfect creed and then having someone totally misunderstand what you wrote. How do you get around that? Good for Ray not to write a creed or to start a church and all the other "you have to!" that everyone demands to be able to proclaim they are legit.
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Ray states his creed:
I Believe that the Holy Scriptures are God's Authorized Biography, and
I Believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography
For me I see the the Holy Scriptures are Man's Authorized Biography of God and Lord Jesus Christ is God's Authorized Autobiography to Man!
Jesus never identified himself with a faith or his own jewish heritage. Nor should We now. Religion of all types does not work.
Would you think jesus is here to teach an official doctrine or admonish people who teach official doctrine?
I would say the latter.
The old testament scriptures shows us how religion influenced man. It's time to be free from it.
I think he would teach us how to be what we really are. we need to get rid of titles that show superiority over others. The bible has already shown us that religion does not work and causes divisions among one another. It keeps people from being united as one.
Jesus is trying to teach us how to be free. we cannot adopt any doctrines that set ourselves apart from one another or kept in spiritual prison. Ever.
Jesus would attack indoctrinating religions over setting an official doctrine.
If one expects to be wise- we should act and think like a child does. A child has more whole self than we do. They never show superiority- they just see you as equal to them. It doesn't care what religion you carry- What beliefs you carry-It doesn't care which beliefs are more correct than others. It doesn't care about your color- They don't care how your hair's done- they are quick to forgive- They're innocent at heart-they're pure at heart. They want to spend time with you. Jesus said we cannot enter the kingdom of God unless we have the mind of a child.
Try to see the world through the eyes of a child and go from there.
That's my two cents.
Denise
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Jesus never identified himself with a faith or his own jewish heritage.
That's not exactly true:
Matt 13:57 So they [The Jews] were offended at Him [Jesus]. But Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor except in his own country and in his own house.”
Matt 15:24 But He [Jesus] answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
John 5:39 You search the Scriptures [the 'oracles of God' given to the Jews (Rom 3:2)], for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me [Jesus].
Luke 24:44 Then He [Jesus] said to them, “These are the words which I spoke to you while I was still with you, that all things must be fulfilled which were written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and the Psalms concerning Me.”
Jesus clearly identified with His Jewish heritage, even at an early age by staying in the Temple [Luke 2:41-50]. As far as faith, Jesus defines what it meant to have faith and what to have faith in.
John 14:11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves
John 17:20-21 “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will believe in Me through their word; that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.
Marques
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Marques-
Biography means a story is written by someone else while Autobiography is a story written by that same person.
About the hertiage part.
He did not identify with his jewish heritage. The traditions that all jews uphold to- He doesn't follow their beliefs when it comes to traditions- their views on sabbath, their views on laws- their views on rituals, etc. That is why he admonished the Pharisees all the time every time they tried to test him.
Same with us- we use to identify ourselves a physical christian- we use to follow its traditions- its rituals, etc. But you still call yourself a christian even after you give up all the rituals, traditions, etc that they tell you you have to follow. What you are now, a spiritual christian based on spiritual things rather than physical. You no longer hold to a christian's hertiage in a sense.
What Jesus was, was a spiritual jew. not a physical jew. He did not identify with a jewish' heritage. Because if he did- he would uphold the jews' laws, traditions and rituals. Alot of jews there uphold the laws, rituals, etc because of their heritage. The way they were raised, the way they were taught- etc. he never held on to jewish heritage.
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Marques-
Biography means a story is written by someone else while Autobiography is a story written by that same person.
About the hertiage part.
He did not identify with his jewish heritage. The traditions that all jews uphold to- He doesn't follow their beliefs when it comes to traditions- their views on sabbath, their views on laws- their views on rituals, etc. That is why he admonished the Pharisees all the time every time they tried to test him.
Same with us- we use to identify ourselves a physical christian- we use to follow its traditions- its rituals, etc. But you still call yourself a christian even after you give up all the rituals, traditions, etc that they tell you you have to follow. What you are now, a spiritual christian based on spiritual things rather than physical. You no longer hold to a christian's hertiage in a sense.
What Jesus was, was a spiritual jew. not a physical jew. He did not identify with a jewish' heritage. Because if he did- he would uphold the jews' laws, traditions and rituals. Alot of jews there uphold the laws, rituals, etc because of their heritage. The way they were raised, the way they were taught- etc. he never held on to jewish heritage.
Jesus was both, a physical Jew and a spiritual Jew...as was Paul, Peter, etc. I understand the point you are trying to make, but that doesn't change the fact He was of Jewish heritage and spoke often of it as noted above.
Jesus followed all the traditions and rituals as His people...the big difference was He understood the spiritual truth that they symbolized. One of the most widely known examples is Jesus' baptism. He was the Son of God from conception, but as the scriptures note, render custom to whom customs, and as the custom was Jesus was baptized. Paul said later in his ministry that he no longer baptized. Jesus knew that this would be but followed this custom in His time as it was appropriate [Jesus said “Permit it to be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness.” - Matt 3:15].
Both the OT and the NT testify of Jesus Christ, BOTH. The OT and it's rituals, traditions, customs ALWAYS had a higher spiritual meaning...but just like the people in Babylon today, their eyes were not opened to see it. Jesus Christ was an example, that we could see and behold, to these same Holy Scriptures. As a matter of fact, all the epistles in the NT are based on the OT, especially Revelation. Everything that Jesus taught in His ministry, the foundation was laid in the OT, but it wasn't finished and Jesus continued to build upon it. He didn't do away with anything and start over. Paul refers to the OT as the 'oracles of God'. That is most definitely something that Jesus would identify with seeing that He is God's chief Oracle.
I understand the zeal to show the corruptness within organized religion, but our testimony must remain truthful. The problem is not the rules and customs, it's the ignorance on their higher meaning. But seeing that Jesus respected both, there is no need for us falsify His heritage or anything else.
Thanks,
Marques
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The biography is written as man's view as he sees God. The autobiography is a glimpse of what is written by God Himself through Christ. Which may help explain the gulf between the old and new testaments.
Craig
You know Craig, I've been thinking the same thing for quite a while now. So amen to your post. I hope one day we get to hear Ray's thoughts on it.
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Marques,
You are correct. I think the word "jewish heritage" is a bad choice of words of what I'm trying to say. I should have said He did not identify with the jewish religion and their traditions, customs, etc.
Jesus was not only born a Jew, and He was very aware of his Jewish descent. He was born from a long line of jews- Very strong family line-He was born in a land full of strong culture. His family were very jewish. they are very immersed into the culture. They taught Jesus everything they knew about their culture. The only difference is He saw through religions' limitations and wanted to help others see it too. Because of his culture and many people that identified with that culture, He had to use the culture of the past to help them see.
For example, For many of us. We were born into a type of religious family life. We identified with the religion because of our upbringing. We saw through the religions limitations just like Jesus did. We saw its limitations through our religious upbringing. He just did not stay with the culture' customs. Who could. Not after all that you've learned. He knew the spirit of God when he sees it. Love, Mercy, patience, etc. He just wants religions done away.
Jesus, like other teachers in the OT admonished his people for their spiritual short-comings, He taught the importance of spiritual essentials like Love, justice, goodness, purity, mercy, patience etc, all that possess the spirit of God and allows you to experience God in everything you do. Religion will keep you from experiencing God. It keeps you back.
Hope I make sense?
Jesus always say things like... They said. BUT I Say this... using their culture's shortcomings to help them see. He knows his history extremely well.
I admire his strength. He laid his life for his friends- He gave up everything he knew (customs, traditions, friends etc ) in order to show them the way. the process that we have to follow in order to become free.
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John,
Of course. I believe he is fully man and fully God.
Denise
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John,
Of course. I believe he is fully man and fully God.
Denise
O.K. Cool. 8)
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John,
does that mean to you that Jesus is uncreated?
Indiana Bob
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John,
does that mean to you that Jesus is uncreated?
Indiana Bob
No Bob. It means her answer to my question is: O.K. Cool. 8)
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Hi
I'm not so clear as to what is meant by he is fully man and fully God.
. How does anything become "fully" this and "fully" that. Humans are still physical beings and God is spirit. If and only if the scripture says so, maybe I will agree...but for now someone had to show me that scripture.
Bless U all
Mbo
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John,
Of course. I believe he is fully man and fully God.
Denise
If I may ask, what was Jesus first?
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John,
Of course. I believe he is fully man and fully God.
Denise
If I may ask, what was Jesus first?
The first and the last. :)
Isaiah 44:6 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Isaiah 48:12 Listen to me, O Jacob, Israel, whom I have called: I am he; I am the first and I am the last.
Revelation 1:8 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Revelation 1:17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: "Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last.
Revelation 2:8 "To the angel of the church in Smyrna write: These are the words of him who is the First and the Last, who died and came to life again.
Revelation 22:13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
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He is also the firstborn among many brethren:
Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Why do you ask? :)
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I think I completely misunderstood your question. What was Jesus first, you asked, meaning was he first man or first God? Is that what you're asking?
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Quote;
I think I completely misunderstood your question. What was Jesus first, you asked, meaning was he first man or first God? Is that what you're asking?
Friends,
Hasn't Ray Smith written; "first the physical then the spiritual"?
And could that apply to Lord Jesus the man as well as it does to us?
Begotten of God and born of woman, then raised to life as man, then ascended to the Father as King of future kings, the elect.
If not why not?
I don't recall the source, but perhaps someone may know.
Indiana Bob
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Friends,
Hasn't Ray Smith written; "first the physical then the spiritual"?
And could that apply to Lord Jesus the man as well as it does to us?
Begotten of God and born of woman, then raised to life as man, then ascended to the Father as King of future kings, the elect.
If not why not?
I don't recall the source, but perhaps someone may know.
Indiana Bob
The source of that statement was not Ray, it comes from Apostle Paul.
1Cor 15:46 But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?topic=3316.0 -----------------------
What constitutes "God?" Was Jesus "God?' when He was in the flesh? ETc., etc., etc., etc. "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, GOD WITH US" (Matt. 1:23). Well now, was Jesus "a man with us" or "GOD with us?" Some claim that Jesus WAS THE FATHER IN FLESH. Makes one wonder who in the world Jesus prayed to if that were the case? Did He pray to HIMSELF? On the other hand, there are now those trying to deceive bible-truth.com readers into believing that Jesus was so totally FLESH, that "He was MADE SIN" rather than made "a sin OFFERING."
Jesus was a MAN with the MIND OF GOD. Jesus "emptied" (Phil. 2:5, "But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and WAS [Greek for 'was' means "EMPTIED"]...." My margin says: "emptied himself of His privileges." Jesus gave up many of His prior privileges when He was made a littler lower than the angels for the express purpose of being able to DIE (Heb. 2:9). Notice that He was "crowned with GLORY and honour," yet He gave up much of His glory in becoming human, and that is why He prayed that His Father would RESTORE the glories that He had with His Father from before the foundation of the world (John 17:5). Etc.
God be with you,
Ray
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a quote from Ray's paper 'Solving the Enigma of God":
"If Jesus and Jehovah are just different spellings of the very same name, how can Jesus be Jehovah and Jehovah be Jesus? Good question, and I will try to solve that enigma for you in my paper "Solving the Enigma of God." But for now, let's notice a few things that do prove that this is so."
...notice he writes "let's notice a few things that do PROVE THAT THIS IS SO.".........
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I think I completely misunderstood your question. What was Jesus first, you asked, meaning was he first man or first God? Is that what you're asking?
Yes! :) I meant was he first man or first God? Greetings! Just waking up. I had a long week at work and my body aches all over.
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Quote;
I think I completely misunderstood your question. What was Jesus first, you asked, meaning was he first man or first God? Is that what you're asking?
Friends,
Hasn't Ray Smith written; "first the physical then the spiritual"?
And could that apply to Lord Jesus the man as well as it does to us?
Begotten of God and born of woman, then raised to life as man, then ascended to the Father as King of future kings, the elect.
If not why not?
I don't recall the source, but perhaps someone may know.
Indiana Bob
That's right. Was he first man or first God?
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I think I completely misunderstood your question. What was Jesus first, you asked, meaning was he first man or first God? Is that what you're asking?
Yes! :) I meant was he first man or first God? Greetings! Just waking up. I had a long week at work and my body aches all over.
Hi there! :) I hope you're feeling better. JFK answered your question pretty well. But here it is from the bible itself. Read it and tell me what you conclude:
The Word Became Flesh
John Chapter 1
vs. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
vs 2 He was with God in the beginning.
vs 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
vs 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
vs 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
vs 14 The Word [which is God] BECAME FLESH [a human man] and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
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Just something interesting I found today on the Concordant Version:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Instead of "with God" it says - at least in this version - "was toward God".
Found it interesting. Pondering what that might mean as opposed to "with God".
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I think I completely misunderstood your question. What was Jesus first, you asked, meaning was he first man or first God? Is that what you're asking?
Yes! :) I meant was he first man or first God? Greetings! Just waking up. I had a long week at work and my body aches all over.
Hi there! :) I hope you're feeling better. JFK answered your question pretty well. But here it is from the bible itself. Read it and tell me what you conclude:
The Word Became Flesh
John Chapter 1
vs. 1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
vs 2 He was with God in the beginning.
vs 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
vs 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of men.
vs 5 The light shines in the darkness, but the darkness has not understood it.
vs 14 The Word [which is God] BECAME FLESH [a human man] and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.
Thank you! :) Yes, I'm feeling better.
Yup, it's very clear. The gospel writer identifies the Word as Jesus. He was "at that time" referred to as THE WORD. It almost seems like God uttered this WORD. Upon doing so, the universe came into being, and ultimately, God's utterance became flesh.
My native language is Spanish. THE WORD is translated as THE VERB into Spanish from the Greek. If we were to use this form in the English translation, it would read IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE VERB, AND THE VERB WAS WITH GOD, AND THE VERB WAS GOD. We all know that a verb expresses an action. I think in this case the action was a creative one. I can picture God "speaking" this action verb causing our universe to come into existence.
Mind you, this is not a belief that I have. It's just a conjecture. And yes, I do believe in Jesus. I've witnessed his authority in action.
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Just something interesting I found today on the Concordant Version:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Instead of "with God" it says - at least in this version - "was toward God".
Found it interesting. Pondering what that might mean as opposed to "with God".
Hi Levy, come to think of it, I had read about that rendering of John 1:1. I think it means something like the Word was in the presence of God or face to face with God.
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Just something interesting I found today on the Concordant Version:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Instead of "with God" it says - at least in this version - "was toward God".
Found it interesting. Pondering what that might mean as opposed to "with God".
Hi Levy, come to think of it, I had read about that rendering of John 1:1. I think it means something like the Word was in the presence of God or face to face with God.
Hey theophilus,
maybe that the Word was going towards becoming God too, and indeed became God and He became God even before the world was created (by Himself, the Word). Firstborn among many brothers, like He is so are we.
God bless,
Levy
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Thank you! :) Yes, I'm feeling better.
Yup, it's very clear. The gospel writer identifies the Word as Jesus. He was "at that time" referred to as THE WORD. It almost seems like God uttered this WORD. Upon doing so, the universe came into being, and ultimately, God's utterance became flesh.
My native language is Spanish. THE WORD is translated as THE VERB into Spanish from the Greek. If we were to use this form in the English translation, it would read IN THE BEGINNING WAS THE VERB, AND THE VERB WAS WITH GOD, AND THE VERB WAS GOD. We all know that a verb expresses an action. I think in this case the action was a creative one. I can picture God "speaking" this action verb causing our universe to come into existence.
Mind you, this is not a belief that I have. It's just a conjecture. And yes, I do believe in Jesus. I've witnessed his authority in action.
Now you're on the right track.
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Just something interesting I found today on the Concordant Version:
John 1
1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Instead of "with God" it says - at least in this version - "was toward God".
Found it interesting. Pondering what that might mean as opposed to "with God".
Hi Levy, come to think of it, I had read about that rendering of John 1:1. I think it means something like the Word was in the presence of God or face to face with God.
Hey theophilus,
maybe that the Word was going towards becoming God too, and indeed became God and He became God even before the world was created (by Himself, the Word). Firstborn among many brothers, like He is so are we.
God bless,
Levy
Hello Levy, here's a rendition of John 1:1-2 by the Orthodox Jewish Bible:
Yochanan 1
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
1 Bereshis (in the Beginning) was the Dvar Hashem [YESHAYAH 55:11; BERESHIS 1:3], and the Dvar Hashem was agav (along with, etzel, Mishle 8:30;30:4) Hashem, and the Dvar Hashem was nothing less, by nature, than Elohim! [Psa 56:11(10); Yn 17:5; Rev. 19:13 i.e., the Ma’amar Memra]
2 Bereshis (in the Beginning) this Dvar Hashem was with Hashem [Prov 8:30].
Quoted verses:
Yeshayah 55:11 (Isaiah)
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
11 So shall My Davar (the Word of Hashem) be that goeth forth out of My mouth; He shall not return unto Me reikam (empty, void) but He [the Davar Hashem, see Yn 1:1,14 (John 1:1,14)] shall do that which I please, and He [the Davar Hashem] shall accomplish the purpose whereto I sent Him.
Bereshis 1:3
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
3 And Elohim said, Let there be light: and there was light [Tehillim 33:6,9].
Tehillim 33:6
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
6 By the Devar Hashem were Shomayim made; and all the tz’va (host) of them by the ruach (breath) of His mouth [MJ 11:3; Yn 1:1; Psa 56:5].
Mishle 8:30 (Proverbs 8:30)
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
30 Then I was etzel (at the side of, beside [see Yn 1:1]) Him, as an Amon (master craftsman, builder, architect, artist); and I was daily His delight (or daily fille with delight), rejoicing always before Him [Mishle 30:4]
Yochanan 17:5
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
5 And now give me kavod, Avi, along with Yourself with the kavod which I was having with You before HaOlam came to be [Yn 1:1 3; Prov 8:30; 30:4].
Mishle 30:4
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
4 Who hath ascended into Shomayim, or descended? Who hath gathered ruach in the hollows of His hands? Who hath bound the mayim in a cloak? Who hath established all the afsei aretz (ends of the earth)? What is Shmo (His Name), and what is Shem Bno (the Name of His Son [See Memra, creative Word of G-d in Targumim]), if thou canst tell?
Tehillim 56 10(11) (Psalms)
10 (11) In Elohim will I praise His Word; in Hashem will I praise His Word [Yn 1:1; Mishlei 30:4; Ps 33:6; Mishlei 8:30].
Orthodox Jewish Bible (OJB)
Copyright © 2002, 2003, 2008, 2010, 2011 by Artists for Israel International
THIS IS AWESOME!!! PRAISED BE OUR GOD!!!
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Interesting but way over my head but God bless you theophilus and great to meet you. ???
Rhys
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Interesting but way over my head but God bless you theophilus and great to meet you. ???
Rhys
Hello Rhys! God bless you too! :)
It's not way over either one of us' heads. I provided the names of the books referred to that we are all familiar with. This is just another version of scripture, a Jewish one. Great to meet you too! :)
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Excellent. Yes I see that. My brain is a bit slow and goes into safe mode now and then. I often have to tell myself listen to the Lord then your roofer. :D
Rhys
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Excellent. Yes I see that. My brain is a bit slow and goes into safe mode now and then. I often have to tell myself listen to the Lord then your roofer. :D
Rhys
hahahaha! that's funny. Safe mode, ha? which operating system are you "running"? ;)
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Jesus 7.0 Operating System
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Jesus 7.0 Operating System
I was going to say: Mac OS, the one with the bitten apple :)
God bless!
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LOL! You guys are funny! We do run on an operating system. It's called BOULEMA 1.0. That is God's will; God's boulema. This is the will of God that cannot possibly be stopped.
This is that will through which God is "operating ALL THINGS according to the counsel of His own will. Ephesians 1:11
God bless you guys.