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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lareli on November 02, 2017, 06:29:45 PM
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John 11
47Then gathered the chief priests and the Pharisees a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many miracles.
48 If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans shall come and take away both our place and nation.
49 ¶ And one of them, named Caiaphas, being the high priest that same year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all,
50 Nor consider that it is expedient for us, that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not.
51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;
52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Does anyone know if Ray ever taught about this? Specifically why did God speak truth through the high priest who was an enemy?
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John 11:52. And he did not say this of his own accord, being high priest that year, He prophecied
Jesus would die for the nation.
I was reading Balaam and the donkey story tonight so it reminded me of how Our Lord can put
his words into the mouth of anyone or anything. The burning bush just came to mind, anyhoo, I
think God used this wicked Sadducee Calaphas who was a senior high priest (18 Yrs apparently) to serve
a purpose. I think God used the wicked plots of this group of wicked snakes to accomplish His own
purpose. What they thought was the fulfillment of their plans was actually to fulfill God’s plan which
I think was to ruin them. Their wealth and power.Also Caiaphas ordered Jesus to say if He was the Son of God and Jesus said “ You say that I am.” What did Jesus mean by that ? What was His purpose? Was it to incriminate them? I’m going to study more on this. I Love this book 📖. Peace, Pamela. PS,, do you think that this high priest having lots of authority was a reason God chose
him to speak through?
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PS,, do you think that this high priest having lots of authority was a reason God chose
him to speak through?
I don’t know Pamela.
I’ve been thinking about this since way before I decided to post it. I have no answers only questions as to why God used Caiaphas to prophecy. I have questions about prophecy itself in light of this part of Johns gospel.
I think about Balaams donkey as you mentioned, and I also think about one of the stories where Gideon was going to fight and he overheard one of the enemies talking about a dream he had that terrified him and another of the enemies was interpreting the dream correctly. So in scripture God uses all sorts of vessels to speak His truth. But in the case of Caiaphas it’s different because Caiaphas did not mean what God meant when he spoke.
Caiaphas said something that was a deep and profound spiritual truth.. but he didn’t mean it like that. He said it as a carnal statement. Yet it’s recorded as a spiritual prophecy and a deep spiritual truth.
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Hi largeli,
I was thinking that at that time virtually everyone was an enemy of Jesus. Everyone was about to abandon him. Ray said that Jesus saved no one during his earthly ministry.
And then theres' this in Matthew 7, "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’. " These people will do all these things, but they never knew Christ. They still prophesied, cast out demons and healed.
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Hi largeli,
I was thinking that at that time virtually everyone was an enemy of Jesus. Everyone was about to abandon him. Ray said that Jesus saved no one during his earthly ministry.
And then theres' this in Matthew 7, "On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’. " These people will do all these things, but they never knew Christ. They still prophesied, cast out demons and healed.
All good points.
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Was Caiaphas not of his father the devil? In whom there is no truth?
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I think so. He was most concerned with his position and status of power, than he was of spiritual matters. No different than religious leaders of today. They will deny the truth right before their eyes, rather than risk loosing their positions of power.
John 8:44 you are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
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PS,, do you think that this high priest having lots of authority was a reason God chose
him to speak through?
I don’t know Pamela.
I’ve been thinking about this since way before I decided to post it. I have no answers only questions as to why God used Caiaphas to prophecy. I have questions about prophecy itself in light of this part of Johns gospel.
I think about Balaams donkey as you mentioned, and I also think about one of the stories where Gideon was going to fight and he overheard one of the enemies talking about a dream he had that terrified him and another of the enemies was interpreting the dream correctly. So in scripture God uses all sorts of vessels to speak His truth. But in the case of Caiaphas it’s different because Caiaphas did not mean what God meant when he spoke.
Caiaphas said something that was a deep and profound spiritual truth.. but he didn’t mean it like that. He said it as a carnal statement. Yet it’s recorded as a spiritual prophecy and a deep spiritual truth.
I keep thinking about your post!
I don't think you can say that the high priest meant it as a carnal statement. I don't think he knew what he was saying at all. God used him. Consider that this statement came down to us. I don't think it's a leap of logic to say that these words of the high priest became known to the Jewish people. They recorded many many things. And since Caiaphas had the authority of high priest, his words were noteworthy. I can imagine that this was part of what the early Christians used to explain the Gospel to the Jewish people.
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Jesus had just raised Lazarus from the dead. This miracle caused a lot of excitement among the people and the members of the Sanhedrin were worried that the people would believe that Jesus
was indeed the Messiah , and would continue to perform miracles and the people would believe.They were worried that the Romans would come and destroy them so they pressured Caiaphas, who was one of authority that the people would listen to..But the Pharisees believed in the resurrection so they knew Jesus was from God, so this had nothing to do with the resurrection, the Sadducees however did not believe in anything but themselves, power and wealth and the Pharisees were no better , they all colluded to kill Jesus even trying to get Him to incriminate himself for blasphemy by saying He was the Son Of God, that’s why Jesus kept saying”YOU
say that I am”.
Mark 15:2,,,,Are you King of the Jews asked Pilate?
“ YOU have said so, replied Jesus”
John 19:21,,,The chief priests of the Jews protested to Pilate. Do not write the king of the Jews
But that this man CLAIMED to be the King of the Jews.
These Pharisees and Sadducees are the same lot that today in these modern times, sanctify
And purify themselves in the Bohemian Grove. Church/ Gov. IMO
I believe God used Caiaphas because He does not want the people to believe. It’s not time yet..
I am new to all of this so please feel free to correct me. I watch in wonderment as Our God uses all kinds of donkeys to speak.😂
All Praise and Glory to Our Lord And Saviour Jesus Christ .Amen
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"But the Pharisees believed in the resurrection so they knew Jesus was from God"
Hi Pamela,
I don't think the Pharisees knew Jesus was from God at all. Mark 23 -45 As all the people were listening, Jesus said to his disciples, 46 “Beware of the experts in the law. They like walking around in long robes, and they love elaborate greetings in the marketplaces and the best seats in the synagogues and the places of honor at banquets. 47 They devour widows’ property, and as a show make long prayers. They will receive a more severe punishment.” He later called the Pharisees white washed tombs. They were as blinded as anyone else. And Paul was a pharisee and he did not believe Jesus was from God, until He showed up and confronted Paul.
Caiaphas words were true. It's later the Jews would realize what he said was prophecy and being carried out right in front of them. But since the early church prospered I don't think it was much later till the truth of this was known. Being the High Priest was a very big deal- that's why he was chosen to say those words.
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Thankyou Octoberose, I stand corrected . I always thought that the Pharisees knew Jesus was from God. It’s good to learn from those who have a good understanding of scripture . I study four hours a day and it’s very hard but amazing nevertheless. It’s all so mind boggling, sometimes I have to pinch myself. Have a wonderful evening my friend. Back to reading 📖. Pamela
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Oh here I am again. I need help with this if you don’t mind.
Matt.22:41,,, Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question 42-
saying” What do you think about the Christ?Whose Son is He? They said to Him” the son of David.
43- He said to them.”How is it then that David, in the spirit calls Him Lord saying” 44-the Lord said to my Lord “sit at my right hand while I put all your enemies under your feet.45-If then David calls Him Lord, how is he his son? 46-And no one was to answer Him a word, nor from that day did
anyone dare to ask Him anymore questions.
Psalm 110:1,,,The Lord said to my Lord”sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool.
Does this mean that Jesus is saying that He is David’s son and also his Lord and God?
That he can be both flesh and spirit. Did the Pharisees expect their Messiah to be a man like them?
Thanks , any help is greatly appreciated. Pamela
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Oh here I am again. I need help with this if you don’t mind.
Matt.22:41,,, Now while the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them a question 42-
saying” What do you think about the Christ?Whose Son is He? They said to Him” the son of David.
43- He said to them.”How is it then that David, in the spirit calls Him Lord saying” 44-the Lord said to my Lord “sit at my right hand while I put all your enemies under your feet.45-If then David calls Him Lord, how is he his son? 46-And no one was to answer Him a word, nor from that day did
anyone dare to ask Him anymore questions.
Psalm 110:1,,,The Lord said to my Lord”sit at my right hand until I make your enemies a footstool.
Does this mean that Jesus is saying that He is David’s son and also his Lord and God?
That he can be both flesh and spirit. Did the Pharisees expect their Messiah to be a man like them?
Thanks , any help is greatly appreciated. Pamela
Jesus further confuses the scribes and
Pharisees by asking them to explain the meaning of this very title: how could it be that the Messiah is the son of David when David himself refers to Him as “my Lord” (Mark 12:35–37; cf. Psalm 110:1)? The teachers of the Law couldn’t answer the question. Jesus thereby exposed the Jewish leaders’ ineptitude as teachers and their ignorance of what the Old Testament taught as to the true nature of the Messiah, further alienating them from Him.
Jesus’ point in asking the question of Mark 12:35 was that the Messiah is more than the physical son of David. If He is David’s Lord, He must be greater than David. As Jesus says in Revelation 22:16, “I am the Root and the Offspring of David.” That is, He is both the Creator of David and the Descendant of David. Only the Son of God made flesh could say that.
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The Pharisees did know Jesus was from God.
John 3:1-2
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him.”
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Wanda and Loc, thank you so much, I love learning about our Lord, He is spiritually creating
us, carnal humans into the image of Christ, which is many things but mostly LOVE.
How awesome is that. Bless His Holy Name , All Praise and Glory to Lord Jesus Christ.
Pamela❤️
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If the high priest who was of his father the devil, can prophesy (not of himself) then is there anyone who can’t?
Can today’s pope, for example?
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Sometimes we run the risk of overthinking things. We are all vessels of clay in the Potters hand, and He will use that vessel as He sees fit. Consider how Satan was allowed to enter poor Judas in order to complete the task. I see the high priest's unwitting prophesy as making use of the vessel as was planned, including a useful lesson for us today.
Mike
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Sometimes we run the risk of overthinking things.
I’m not sure what this means..
What is risky about it?
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Hello Largeli,
In the context of this thread, my use of the term “run the risk” is referring to the possibility of losing track of the true meaning by overthinking what is written.
While some things require time, study and meditation, other things do not.
By overthinking, we sometimes take something that is simple and direct and turn it into something far more complex than it really is. And thus we become confused. My wife tells me I do it all the time at home :-\ I believe this to be the case in this particular instance. The words are very simple and direct:
Joh 11:46 But some of them went away to the Pharisees and told them what Jesus had done.
Joh 11:47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees assembled a sanhedrin, and said, What are we doing, for this man does many miraculous signs?
Joh 11:48 If we let Him alone this way, all will believe into Him, and the Romans will come and will take away from us both the place and the nation.
Joh 11:49 But a certain one of them, Caiaphas being high priest of that year, said to them, You know nothing,
Joh 11:50 nor consider that it is profitable for us that one man die for the people, and not all the nation to perish.
Joh 11:51 But he did not say this from himself, but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus was about to die on behalf of the nation,
Joh 11:52 and not only on behalf of the nation, but that He also might gather into one the children of God who had been scattered.
Joh 11:53 Then from that day, they took counsel that they might kill Him.
Yes, Caiaphas was the high priest that year. And I believe it is safe to assume that his status is the reason why he was the one chosen to speak those words. And yes, Jesus did refer to these men as children of the devil:
Joh 8:44 You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
But this is a metaphor—symbolic of what was in their hearts (another metaphor). I have no doubt that you do not believe Caiaphas was actually fathered by the devil. Yet, you appear to be thinking literally as though the man could not speak a word of truth because of that metaphor. Caiaphas was a man like any other man, able to speak lies or truth. And he was speaking the truth on two levels—from his own carnal point of view and from the level of a prophesy to which he had no idea that he was doing it. You could say (here comes another metaphor and I hope it’s appropriate and not offensive to anyone) the joke was on Caiaphas.
Yes, the pope and anyone else can prophesize if they are so designated. I hope this helps.
Mike
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ZekeSr, thanks for expanding on that thought, I see what you’re saying now.
We have reached the same conclusion, I just like to overthink things as a way of testing my spiritual house. If I reach a conclusion on a matter I have to hit it with a hammer from all angles to make sure it stands. Overthinking, pondering, constantly questioning and even doubting is how I test it because I alone will be held accountable for how my spiritual house is built.
I like this forum because I can get others to bang on the walls of my house as well. Sometimes others can find a weakness in my house that I cannot due to perspective.
Thanks!
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Hi largeli,
I'm happy to see you found peace with this. I could feel the pull it had on you, because I was going through something similar.
You had me digging my heals in for a bit, which was great really. It was one of the most important times in the history of the world. It was our salvation unfolding, laboring for it's birth. I hope I never grow tired of these words.And how about those glorious prophesies. Stealth Precision.
He would not retaliate. “He was oppressed and He was afflicted, yet He opened not His mouth; He was led as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before its shearers is silent, so He opened not His mouth” (Isaiah 53:7).
Matthew 27:12 tells us that “while He was being accused by the chief priests and elders, He answered nothing.” Pilate, the Roman governor, also tried to get Him to answer, “but He answered him not one word, so that the governor marveled greatly” (Matthew 27:13-14
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Thanks Wanda.. the conclusion I’ve come to on this issue was established before posting. I believed that God can speak truth through anyone including Christians. There’s much that God spoke to me during my time in the church. People in the church spoke things to me that I considered prophetic. After coming here to BT and being part of some very spirited discussion regarding the church, I had wondered if I should discard all the things I gained while in the church. Like I said.. I alone will be held accountable for how my spiritual house is built so I want to always test it, question it.
Ray had said or implied on many occasions that if the church teaches it, it’s probably (or definitely) false. But he also said there are many wonderful truths of God taught in the church.. and that church buildings are fine for worship if it’s in spirit.
So I wanted to retest that part of my house.
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Thanks Wanda.. the conclusion I’ve come to on this issue was established before posting. I believed that God can speak truth through anyone including Christians. There’s much that God spoke to me during my time in the church. People in the church spoke things to me that I considered prophetic. After coming here to BT and being part of some very spirited discussion regarding the church, I had wondered if I should discard all the things I gained while in the church. Like I said.. I alone will be held accountable for how my spiritual house is built so I want to always test it, question it.
Ray had said or implied on many occasions that if the church teaches it, it’s probably (or definitely) false. But he also said there are many wonderful truths of God taught in the church.. and that church buildings are fine for worship if it’s in spirit.
So I wanted to retest that part of my house.
From my own experience I think Ray could be right.
Peter 2:4–8
4 As you come to him, a living stone nrejected by men but in the sight of God chosen and precious, 5 oyou yourselves like living stones are being built up as pa spiritual house, to be qa holy priesthood, rto offer spiritual sacrifices sacceptable to God through Jesus Christ. 6 For it stands in Scripture:
“Behold, I am laying in Zion a stone,
a cornerstone chosen and precious,
and whoever believes in him will not be put to shame.”
7 So the honor is for you who vbelieve, but for those who vdo not believe,
“The stone that the builders rejected
has become the cornerstone,”1
8 and
“A stone of stumbling,
and a rock of offense.”
May God bless and keep you in his loving spirit largeli
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Sorry, if i do not know how to best post something here.....
and where to be most appropriate to respond to what largeli's post is
relative to the topic "truth from the high priest"
Ok,...........the apostles have, a good number of times,
taken half an idea, a partial sentence in today's grammatical terms,
a whole sentence, part of an idea,
that was spoken in the old testament about something that was happening,
in context of the situation, of what was going on in this or that accounting of an event in the old testament
and, then,
quoted it in the new testament as though it was relevant to, referred to, described, supported,
something else in the new testament totally unrelated to how it was originally being said, describing,
about an event in the old testament.
Speaking, quoting exactly, and, even, referring to the prophet that said it when it related to the time and situation
at hand; being relevant and descriptive of the situation in the old testament............
taking, using, that quote,
from back at that time
and, now, saying that what it really meant,
the purpose for which it was truly said and written,
is the truth of what it means, now, at that time, in the new testament
as it relayed, as all do, in type and shadow,
to what was happening in the new testament;
relevant to Jesus Christ.
So, the apostles did that exact same time.
God uses anything, anyone, anytime,
to support, encourage, enlighten, and further the purpose of
what God in Christ in us.........IS.
Not only is all 'fair game' for this purpose
it is the 'true gain' of what the purpose of all that is written is.
Hope that made sense.....
Martin
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We might just say, see, that all the 'why' we ask,
is as Ray liked to say, often repeatedly in anyone recorded session:
"It's always just ONE Thing", "It's One thing", "It's just one thing"
"It's all just One Thing"
To bring the purpose of God's creation of life
to be, to become, what God Wills for Life to be,
to become, for all.
with, by, for, in, through,
God's Love by Christ in us the invaluable and only true Hope we have for, in, with Life
as Family :-) ;) :)
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We might just say, seeing, that all the 'why' we ask,
is as Ray liked to say, often repeatedly in recorded sessions:
"It's always just ONE Thing", "It's One thing", "It's just one thing"
"It's all just One Thing".
As apostles would quote from the old, taking from, out of, the context in which it was relevant
and meaningful,
and applying it in the new testament,
saying that it was said for the current purpose in the new testament,
now,
with a relevance to Jesus Christ;
as though it was.... ....truer.....when applied to the Gospel
at the time the apostle pulled it out of the old testament;
reusing it for a new, fuller, truer (can we say?), spiritual purpose.
As, as if, ALL (Anything and all can be pulled out of any context)
is:
To bring the purpose of God's creation of life
to be, to become,
what God Wills for Life to be,
to become, for all.
This just brought to mind:
God works (uses, extracts, converts) ALL things to work together for God's Giving Good
for those that God Gives the ability to Love God......
It can see as if we read everything, every scripture, and communicated all else
to fit with God's Loving Truth with clear, full, understanding
we would be adding so many recognitions of God's work, the spirit of God doing the work in us,
that we would not be able to communicate effectively.
All would start to sound, be, overly redundant for anyone to want to hear and/or read.
And, it would start to sound confusing, even.
As "of myself I can do nothing but it is the spirit of the resurrected Christ doing the work, the change, the understanding,
in us ............. even to communicate a fuller, truer, way of speaking......or........writing.
I have found this to be an issue for me, in life, enjoying the act of writing by inspiration;
if I am writing to communicate a fuller, truer, communication.
Cannot count the number of times over the past decade that I have been inspired, by a topic, an inspiration,
an insight, to write at length for the purpose of sharing it widely on a website, blog, ect
and been thwarted by the degrees, levels, and intricacies of being exact in writing to best-fit
the full, true, understanding of any one topic or point.
:-) i.e., as for example, the salutation one line below includes the words "with, in, for, by, and through"
all of which have distinct, separate, meanings.
And, I mean to say, write, them all.
Now, that's not the most challenging of examples but speaks clearly to the point.
So, being an impossible task at each and every turn with each and everything,
what we do read must be understood and heard by God's spirit in us
which does, gives, the full, truer, understanding of any given topic or sentence
in what can be seen, more so, now, as the tool it is for God's revealing truth to us,
that the Bible, books of words, is.
It can be read as is but must be translated by the understanding that grows, develops,
and matures to be, to become, how and what we actually hear and read.
For this is the spirit in us, giving understanding to us,
as we are reading or hearing that which is spiritual.
So, as we mature that fuller, truer, clearer, understanding becomes more and more
who we are, who we are becoming, that child of God who hears their Loving Father
speak to us of the love and truth of life as we go and live through life;
ever-maturing by God's spirit doing the maturing in us -- :-) -- to mature us.
with, by, for, in, through,
God's Love by Christ in us
the invaluable and only true Hope we have for, in, with Life
as Family :-) ;) :)
PS: Just noticed, reading, Mike's post -- yes, and as Mike is confirming.....