bible-truths.com/forums
=> General Discussions => Topic started by: sasscell on August 02, 2007, 11:31:38 AM
-
Hi guys, this is nothing really deep, just something I saw yesterday and thought was...funny, actually. We have all this reason givin as to why hell must be and universal salvation must be false: Love that is not a choice is not really love at all, we must have free will to freely choose to love God or our love is worthless, etc. I thought this was funny in light of my study yesterday, check it out.
MARK 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and with all thy stregnth: This is the first COMMANDMENT.
God doesn't give us the choice to love Him, He COMMANDS it!!
-
Are you going to follow that commandment or not?
-
He does not have a choice in the end Nole. He will either follow it in this age or he will follow it in the age to come. "Every knee will bow"
Blessed assurance from a God whose mercy endures through the ages.
CIY
-
You are right seminole, anyone in "churchianity" would say, " of course we have to choose to obey that command". Still, they present these arguments against the salvation of all by saying "forced love" is not love. God, however, doesn't say "will you choose to love me?" That is how they perceive this COMMAND. If we love Him or not, He still is COMMANDING it, not asking for it.
-
Someone on this site or maybe it was Ray, I don't know who, mentioned this about the Commandments. Instead of commands now, we can see them as promises. You shall not steal that's a promise you won't be stealing. You shall not kill... you won't be killing, you shall not covet ... you won't be coveting, you shall love your neighbor as yourself ... that's what you're going to be doing, you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart... that's what you're going to be doing etc. These commands will one day be a reality for everyone. What a strange and beautiful world it will be when everyone loves God and their neighbors. :)
Josh
-
I think that is what I would call "heaven"!
-
Seminole wrote:
I think that is what I would call "heaven"!
Me, too. Sounds good.
-
sasscell,
Good one. And what about these verses that hit me hard a month or so ago:
Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now COMMANDETH all men every where to repent:
Act 17:31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.
Whoa 'Nelly! ;D
-
Thanks for the responses guys. Something else occured to me. We discussed on this thread how people say that these commands are more like invitations to love God, because if God forced it, it would hold no value. (as I type this I see all the more how contradictory and ridiculous this all is) But, how can something be an invitation if there is a consequence for not doing it? I.E. Would you please come to dinner with me? VS EAT EVERYTHING ON YOUR PLATE!! The former may disappoint, but the latter promises a punishment AND THAT they say is free choice!! ABSURD ISN'T IT?? Second, does anyone really believe they can love God with all their heart, stregnth, mind and soul ON THEIR OWN, WITHOUT HIM?? Okay, my blood pressure is beginning to rise...Peace!!
-
Hi Sasscell,
I really like where you are going with this. :)
You ask: "does anyone really believe they can love God with all their heart, stregnth, mind and soul ON THEIR OWN, WITHOUT HIM??"
And the answer is, Of Course!! :) And they do, yet let me expalin the futility of such a stance.
Let's create a fictional person. Let's call her Dawn. She is pretty, has red hair, intelligent, sweet but stirn, rather short and has lots of money.
Ok some will love her because of her red hair, others because she can talk about deep things. Others will be attracted to her sweet personlity, while some will love that she stands for what she believes. Perhaps short guys will love her for her height, and many because of her money. Of course, she may be loved for a mixture of her qualities; yet how many will love her, even take the time to know her for all that she is and love "her"?
Most people are attracted to others because they see in them something that appeals; often times over looking a mean streak, or a lazy attitude, etc. They LOVE what the Love ABOUT the person, not the person, neither completely or unconditionally. Does that make sense :)
With this mindset, people love God. I have heard it all: "Of course I love God, he is going to save me right" Or put another way: "If I don't love him, I won't be saved" Others say, I love God, but I hate the way he treats me, or I cannot truly love a God that let's people suffer, but I do love the flowers and the rainbows.
Do you see what such are loving, they are loving the attribute and not the person.
Yet we are told:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
This is both a commandment and an invatation, because, before one can fully love God, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help. :) Much needed help!!
Mat 11:27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and [he] to whomsoever the Son will reveal [him].
So without any further a do, unless Christ begins to reveal God and his Spirit begins to make Himself known, it is impossible to truly love God the person or the Spirit. Loving a notion is a poor substitute.
I hope this fits with your understanding,
Much love in Christ, the Lamb.
Darren
-
Thanks Yellowstone. Let me see if I understand. It seems like these people paint themselves in quite a corner. While God would never force them to love Him, They had better find some reason to love Him...or else!! Maybe an invitation to be forced!! That's cool, that is exactly what I need!!
-
Great question Sasscell :)
I believe God has created an inert desire to believe in something, which is very much different than the desire to learn the truth :)
I think the concept of: "They had better find some reason to love Him...or else!!" Is self imposed as apposed to be mandated by God. Perhaps this is what you meant and if so, we are in perfect agreement. :)
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
-
Sasscell
I believe when God drags one to him. At some point during that dragging process which takes the skin off of one's knees, elbows, bloodies the nose, blacks the eyes, tears off the clothes, and goes on and on until that person opens spiritual eyes and sees who God is, who He really is in all of His fullness. God made mankind in such a way that at that point whoever that is will love God with all of their heart, soul, mind, body because God is love and only because without this dragging process we see Him through a veil of flesh that must be torn away to see Him clearly.
CIY
-
Yellowstone, exactly what I meant. This is their crazy dicotomy of God woudn't force me so I have to force myself to love a God I don't even know because He'll burn me if I don't. BUT, that's freewill So, let me see, rainbows are nice aren't they? I LOVE rainbows!! Thank you God for rainbows, I love YOU. Anyway, Ciy, you are right, we all start this foolish little way, not then knowing we are being dragged and especially not knowing that even then He is burning out all those foolish notions of what it is to love and serve Him.
-
Hi Sasscell,
Isn't this the truth, the rainbow is a poor shadow of the creator, but once God opens ones heart and drags onto him, one will never look at a rainbow through the same eyes again. Rainbows will become glorious, for one will see God in every one.
I am sure that God thinks of foolish behaviour as a necessary step in the quest for wisdom, for what is wisdom without first knowing what it is to be a simple fool. Here is a question for you, do you think God thinks badly on those who love him because of the rainbows; more so than those who walk blissfully in stark denial and thank no one or nothing, prefering to give all thanks to nature.
Surely, you and I as well as those with a little truth and those yet totally blind are all walking the same twisted path, struggling with what we have and seaking safety in all that they are given to trust. How different are we, if not for the light of truth, give us by our Father, who loved us before we even knew Him. If not for Him, I would be right back with them. Therefore, I will never judge a fool too harshly, oh fool that I am.
1Cr 3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
I hope this works for you :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
-
Oh no, Yellowstone, I don't think badly of them at all, this is why I said we all begin (from our perspective, God drags us!!) our journey's this foolish, niave (SP?) way. This includes me. I certainly don't think God looks badly either, as this is an achievement of His when we finally ( in response to Him) turn to face Him and give Him what we feel He is requireing albeit rags!! It's kindof like when my kids come to me with birthday gifts. They have no money, can't get to the store without me to buy me a gift, so they give me something of theirs wrapped in tin foil. And while the gift is worthless in monetary value, it still means the world to me.
-
Hi Sasscell, :)
I'm sorry for wording my response poorly. I wasn't referring to anyone in particular, just generally. :)
I loved your gift analogy, it fit perfect and yes, such gifts are priceless. Who can imagine what it will be like when we see and fully understand the love God has shown us, and look upon everything as priceless. I try, but sadly, I am clueless. Yet I have hope in Him that the time will come. :)
Thanks for a great discussion :)
Love,
Darren
-
Hi Darren,
Do you see what such are loving, they are loving the attribute and not the person.
Yet we are told:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
This is both a commandment and an invatation, because, before one can fully love God, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help. Much needed help!!
On these points you made, how casn you separate a person from there attributes?
The invitations is what the church teaches God offers all, but WE must except it, this is better know as free will. And to say, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help
Not only can we not do this on our own, WE can not take the first step at all. WE have nothing to do with Him choosing us. WE do not get help, HE does it all.
John 14:6 Jesus said to him, I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life; no one comes to the Father but by Me.
Phi 2:13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to do of His good pleasure.
Just wanted to bring out the point it is ALL of God, WE can do nothing until He works it in us.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Kat, I said the following :)
This is both a commandment and an invatation, because, before one can fully love God, they must first attempt to learn of and build a relationship with God. AND we cannot do this without Help. Much needed help!!
So perhaps we don't recieve a hand written invitation from God, but we must "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. " Pro 3:5
But we are to take the "invitation" or step through the doors that God opens to us when he shed His light of truth upon us. Some walk through without question, some hold back for a long time.
Of course we cannot do anything of ourselves. If we could, who would need faith in God nor would we need to trust Him. To whom do you think I was refering to in the Bold Red text in my Quoted Text. It is God and He alone. :)
As for seperating the person from their attributes, it is very easy. Please read my post again. For whatever reason, carnal blindness or instructions from God, people see, hear, and believe what "they" want. UNtil God opens ones eyes and ears. :)
I trust you can believe I was referring to God.
Love in Christ the lamb,
Darren
-
Hi Darren,
But we are to take the "invitation" or step through the doors that God opens to us when he shed His light of truth upon us. Some walk through without question, some hold back for a long time.
This statment implies to me, that WE have to except this invitation or go through the door. That WE can hold back ???
Eph 1:11 in whom also we have been chosen to an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His own will,
To me this says we will come to the truth exactly when He wants us to. We do make choices, but not without a cause, He causes all things
Pro 16:9 A man's heart plans his way, but Jehovah directs his steps.
This transcript ‘FREE WILL’ IS AN OXYMORON explains this whole concept of the free will myth very well.
Here is the link http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5154.0.html
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
-
Kat, you are choosing to find fault where there is none.
I feel also that you are defeating your own argument and that is if neither you or I can do anything without it being God's will for it to happen (I am not saying this is not so) then you must take up your debate with God, because I surely am not speaking my own words :)
I really believe you are chosing to put meanings to words that are not there. But just so that I can help you understand, I will break down what I said so that there can be no misunderstandings. :)
I said and I quote: "But we are to take the "invitation" or step through the doors that God opens to us when he shed His light of truth upon us. Some walk through without question, some hold back for a long time."
But you left out my very next sentence. Why?
Of course we cannot do anything of ourselves. If we could, who would need faith in God nor would we need to trust Him. To whom do you think I was refering to in the Bold Red text in my Quoted Text. It is God and He alone.
Where did I say or imply that man steps through the doors on HIS OWN violation, and where did I say that the same door is opened in the same way for everyone. I didn't.
You yourself have stated over and over that your departure from the church did not happen over night, but over a period of time. Did you not take small steps at first? But took them you did. Kat, we are meat eaters here, please drop the milk. Did I not say that God opens the door, this does not mean a literal door, but the door that releases all truth, sometimes it is a blinding rush; the Spirit leads the way and man must follow.
Do you believe that people just calmly give in and turn their life over to God. How may people in this forum are still finding it hard to escape the pull of the Church, but they MUST concede in their hearts that God is worthy of all Trust, and this is often the most painful lesson to learn. Are such as these holding back or not. Of course they are, but are they doing anything that God has not willed. No, of course not, but that wasn't the question. :)
Any one who knows me and has read my posts over the many months Knows that I do not believe what you have accused me of. :)
I sure am glad that God reads hearts and knows mine.
Love in Christ
Darren
-
Darren, I may have carried that point a little far. But the whole free will thing is very fresh in my mind from the resent transcript. I think the myth of free will is meat and hard for many to swallow.
There are those that may only come and read on ocassion, so I like things to be really clear. Sorry you thought I was attacking you, it was a point of yours that I wanted to make clear.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
p.s. After I stumbled onto BT, I never attended another church service since and don't miss it in the least.
-
Often times - there is a certain perception, either through the senses or intellect, which denotes a particular meaning to that conveyed, by a single word.
At least that has been my experience. ;)
- jER
-
Kat
I agree with you about free will being one of the most powerful strongholds of the carnal man. I have been out here several years and I have been a reader of BT for more than 2 years. I am in my fifties and had believed and taught free will for all of that time up until about 3 years ago. I now see clearly the truth of God's sovereignty in all things from big to little and from good to evil. I know that God is in control and it gives me peace (when I can meditate on it or I let me say that I am growing in that knowledge of peace).
At the same time, I am amazed at how I can snap back in to my old thinking in a moment. I will think of something in the past and begin to think, "Man if I had just done that a little differently I would be this or that now." Then it will dawn on me that I really could not have done anything in my past any differently than the way it was done because God caused me to do exactly what I did or I would not be where I am today which is exactly where God wants me to be at this very moment. It is sort of like knowing that calories cause one to gain weight and being determined to lose weight but in the blink of an eye one will pick up a doughnut without thinking because of old habits. Those old habits are the tradition of men which make the word of God of none effect. And even though you know those old thoughts are wrong before you know it you are mad at somebody and blaming them when if you would let the truth through you would know that God caused that person to do whatever they did.
That really is a truth that sets one free. People will say so and so did me wrong or hey someone did me a great favor, but it is all God that is causing all things (big, little, good or evil) to workout to His good pleasure. It is all about God and not about our carnal pleasures. And I realize it is a journey that is a struggle daily to stay on the narrow path and until that old man is killed and that new man reigns in me I will continue. Still it is the intent of my heart to seek God's truth and fill up with the word daily.
CIY
-
Hi Kat, :)
I too may have been a little pushy. Sometimes the forest (message) get's missed because of the trees (words).
I had left the church for many years prior to being led to BT. :)
I have no desire to return either.
Love in Christ, the Lamb.
Darren
-
CIY, excellent points. Especially about the do-nuts!!!! >:( :D :-X
-
Yeah Gena and CIY,
I just KNOW that God is going to cause me to overcome this donut situation one day!
Love,
Ursula