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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lareli on January 05, 2018, 10:40:01 AM
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Rev 12:11
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
What does “and by the word of their testimony” mean? Does it mean what it sounds like? That they overcame him by speaking or telling their testimony? And, their testimony of what exactly?
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Here are all the uses of testimony (Gr. marturia, Strongs 3141) in Revelation:
1:1-2 1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ.
6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
11:7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them
12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
19:10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
They speak the testimony of Jesus Christ, which is this:
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.
1 John 4:14
It is not talking about the popular Protestant practice of "giving your testimony" where a man talks about how he grew up in a rough home, got into drugs as a teenager, went to prison, and eventually was transformed at a revival altar call. I don't mean to make light of those situations--I think they are often genuine conversion experiences--but I don't think that's what it's talking about (I may very well be wrong!)
It's interesting to note that "testimony" (Gr. marturia Strongs 3141) is similar to "martyr" (Gr. martus Strongs 3144) Of uncertain affinity; a witness (literally [judicially] or figuratively [generally]); by analogy a “martyr”: - martyr, record, witness.
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So it isn’t “testimony” as in bible-truths discussion forum section “Testimonies/Prayer Requests/Fellowship - *Tell us about your journey to bible-truths*”
I understand why there’s a section on the forum to talk about yourself and fellowship.. but the “testimony” of this type does not have anything whatsoever to do with the “the word of their testimony” in Rev 12:11 is that correct?
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It seems to me it is talking more about the "big picture"--i.e. testifying that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Saviour of the World, and their refusal to back down from that, even when faced with death--than it is about narratives from the saints' personal lives and how they came to know the Lord.
In many cases, however, one's "personal testimony" can certainly be a part of that. In fact, the two can be inseparable. A big part of Paul's testimony was his personal story of how he was converted on the way to Damascus. That is how he came to understand that Christ is Lord. He "gives his testimony" of that episode in Acts 22. I am reminded of Ray's oft-repeated phrase "It's all one"...without his personal testimony of the Damascus encounter, Paul wouldn't have testified that Jesus Christ was the Saviour of the world.
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Extol you kinda gave two (or three) different answers.
“It is not the popular Protestant practice of (personal testimony of how we came to believe)
It can be part of that
The two can be inseparable”
Paul absolutely could have given the testimony of the blood of Christ without talking about his “road to Damascus” experience. He knew the scriptures. The example you gave about the Protestant talking about his upbringing and how he came to know the truth.. is that not his own personal “road to Damascus” story? Which would indicate that it is talking about that kind of testimony in Rev 12?
Did Ray ever explain what exactly “the word of their testimony” in Rev 12:11 is talking about?
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A forum search did not reveal any emails where Ray talked about it (I'm not sure how to search all of the homepage articles at once.)
You're right, I gave multiple answers, though I did qualify my first answer by saying "I may very well be wrong!" ;D
I wish to amend my first reply and say that Rev. 12:11 can absolutely be talking about "giving your testimony." My initial statement probably was a result of my tendency to look at the big picture (the overall plan of God), as well as an anti-church bias on my part: Even when I went to church and believed what was taught there, I didn't really like the term ("Brother Bob is gonna bless us with his testimony today!") It often seemed contrived and sort of made me roll my eyes.
But I have changed my opinion after looking again at the word, which Strong's defines as evidence given (judicially or generally): - record, report, testimony, witness.That can easily mean any of my three answers: It can mean me saying "Jesus Christ will save the world, here is the Scriptural evidence." Or it can mean me saying "Here is the report of how I came to Bible Truths, and how God opened my eyes." Another reason I changed my mind is from Paul's report of Acts 22, in which he recounts the story of how he "came to know the Lord", to use the church phraseology. Near the end of the story, Paul says Jesus told him Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me (v. 18) i.e. they will not believe this report of how you got blinded on the way to Damascus and miraculously had a change of heart. The "testimony" in this case, it would seem, was the Damascus story, not the testimony of Christ being the Saviour of the world.
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Ya you did say “I could be wrong” I saw that, hope I didn’t sound critical of your thoughts and for what it’s worth I have no better answer than you on this..
So if “testimony” in Rev 12:11 is our personal “road to Damascus” story where The Lord dragged us to Himself, then that sounds like.. we overcome by (dare I say) evangelizing??
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Could ‘testimony’ in Rev12:11 be talking about the quality of ones word? As in being a man or woman of your word? You don’t lie, you don’t bear false ‘witness’, your word is clean... you speak truth?
You don’t give false ‘testimony’?
I remember this one scene in the movie ‘Jerry McGuire’ where this guy doesn’t want to sign a contract and he, instead, gives a handshake and says ‘you have my word.. and it’s stronger than oak’
Could Rev 12:11 be simply referring to being an honest person who’s word/testimony/witness is true?
“the word of their testimony” meaning “the quality of their word/testimony”?
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Every man is a liar and cannot be trusted. Our testimony is worthless. We cannot save anyone including ourselves.
God tells us what we are: "For dust you are, and unto dust you shall return."
What we think is of no value. No free will. Our thoughts and actions come from forces we do not control.
Jesus is the Great King. Jesus is our Savior. Jesus Rules. Jesus is the Teacher.
Jesus is only saving a very small few now. We have no say. He saves who He wants, when He wants.
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He saves who He wants when He wants. Where does it say that in the book. Somebody said every man is a liar and cannot be trusted. Music to my ears.
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Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice in heaven, which said: Now is there deliverance, and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the dominion of his Messiah: because the Accuser of our brethren is cast out, who accused them day and night before our God.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him, because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony: and they loved not their life, even to death.
And they overcame him. Who is him? The accuser of our brethren.
Accuse
κατήγορος
katēgoros
kat-ay'-gor-os
From G2596 and G58; against one in the assembly, that is, a complainant at law; specifically Satan: - accuser.
How did they overcome him? They overcame his accusations by the word of their testimony.
Noting: One definition of the word "overcame" is: when one is arraigned or goes to law, to win the case, maintain one’s cause.
Picture a case against a brother in the assembly. The accuser accuses the brethren day and night. But they overcome/win in court by the blood of the Lamb and the Word of their Testimony.
What does the blood of Jesus have to do with overcoming the accuser?
Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;
Rev 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood.
Is every placard carrying street preacher or door-to-door evangelist giving the word of their testimony to overcome the accuser? I think a fair number are working FOR the accuser. That's the testimony many are giving.
And a spiritual match for this verse is, to my mind:
Rom 10:8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
And that is hardly the end of spiritual matches.
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My favorite "dope to hope" testimony when I was a young man was given by a fellow named Mike Warnke. I bought his records, played them for my sunday school class. Turns out he was a charlatan and little to nothing of his "story" was true. He came to mind thinking about this. The Devil accuses, those who overcame/overcome do that against his accusations. The Great Judge of the Universe does not allow "perjury" to stand.
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He saves who He wants when He wants. Where does it say that in the book.
John 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws (drags) him. And I will raise him up on the last day.
Seems pretty cut and dried if you ask me.
Mike
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Dave I see what the blood of the lamb is and how the blood of the lamb pertains to them overcoming the accuser.
But is the meaning of “testimony” in this verse the same thing Paul was talking about when he said in Acts that Jesus told him, “and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me” as Extol pointed out?
John and ZekeSr, I agree with both of your replies but “getting saved” is not the topic here.. the question is, what is “the word of their testimony”? What does “testimony” mean here..
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The way I see it, The Lord Jesus Christ came to do the will of the Father.
He said that he was doing the will of the Father over and over, even though the vast majority of the people thought otherwise.
If we are being lead of the Holy Spirit and our gold is to please the heavenly Father in everything we do, Jesus being our best example ever, than why sweat at all the little details?
Joel
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The way I see it, The Lord Jesus Christ came to do the will of the Father.
He said that he was doing the will of the Father over and over, even though the vast majority of the people thought otherwise.
If we are being lead of the Holy Spirit and our gold is to please the heavenly Father in everything we do, Jesus being our best example ever, than why sweat at all the little details?
Joel
Why sweat at all the little details?? Really?
If your reply is directed towards my question about what “testimony” means in Rev 12:11 then your reply belongs right up there with..
“If you had faith you wouldn’t ask such questions” or “these questions just distract us from the task at hand which is to make disciples” or any other such answers you get from your local church leaders when you ask questions about scripture.
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... is the meaning of “testimony” in this verse the same thing Paul was talking about when he said in Acts that Jesus told him, “and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me” as Extol pointed out?
I don't assume that Paul is talking only and exclusively about his experience on the road, though this is part of it. "Act 22:18 And saw him saying unto me, Make haste, and get thee quickly out of Jerusalem: for they will not receive thy testimony concerning me."
Paul's "conversion" sets a pattern. The "details" of each experience experienced by the one having the experience are not the same. But Paul didn't say that Jesus said "they will not receive the testimony about how you were converted on the road to Damascus." He said "they will not receive thy testimony concerning ME."
And they didn't. And those like them still don't. Jesus is Lord. Jesus saves.
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My reply was not directed at any individual and I certainly wasn't wanting to offend anyone, sorry if that is how it turned out.
Joel
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So the elect, the saints, overcome by the blood of Christ and by the word of their testimony of Christ... so the elect testify, as in they talk to people about their faith?
One of the reasons I left ‘church’ was because they kept trying to make me feel like I was being rebellious by not wanting to do things such as give a testimony in front of the congregation, or lead a small group/home group. I didn’t like feeling like those people were trying to assume authority over me by pushing me to do stuff that I was uncomfortable to do. But I can’t get around scriptures such as Rev 12:11 that appear to say that the saints “evangelize” for lack of a better description.
They used Rev 12:11 to push (they called it “encourage”) people to give a testimony and so I’d really like to believe they were mishandling that verse. Is there another way to understand that verse other than that the saints testify with their words (not just actions but Word) about Christ?
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Largeli,
Not sure that these passages apply to your question, but it seems to me that God does not expect us to be aggressive or pushy, but rather to let our lifestyle and our manner of speaking be the example for others to observe.
Bob
Matt 10:14
13 If the home is worthy, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 And if anyone will not welcome you or heed your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.…
Mark 6:11
10 And He told them, “When you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that place, as a testimony against them.” 12 So they went out and preached that the people should repent.…
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Hello Largeli,
The book of Revelations is about the individual..... it’s personal ..... it's internal..... even though it may appear to be otherwise. As such, I contend this is referring as much to one’s personal internal struggle as it is to anything external. Jesus was tempted by the devil and overcame him by quoting scripture (testimony), and so must we. This verse is about overcoming Satan and the beast within through our own personal testimony to ourselves as we study and learn, not evangelizing. Also, I believe Extol hit on something when he mentioned that the word testimony, as referenced in Strong's, is rooted in martyr. Examine the two phrases wrapped around the one containing the reference to testimony: And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb (martyred)…… and they loved not their lives unto the death (until we die—we all must die once regardless of the circumstances). It's a lifelong struggle.
If I recall correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong), Ray's position was that there were those who were meant to evangelize (under the proper conditions), but that is not what this is about. We all have our own calling.
Mike
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To add to Mike's post.
In the Revelation passage, those who overcome are not pictured as "testifying" to others. Nor are they testifying (solely) about their personal faith. They overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their "testimony".
What is more important--your faith and/or the story of your faith, or the One in Whom you have faith...The One who died for you. Is the Gospel more important or is your faith in the Gospel more important?
If you picture a courtroom (and Paul was quite literally in "court" at the rough time of his revelation/vision) YOU are not the only one being "accused". (What he does to the least of these My brethren he has done to Me). You and me and every other believer are not all that important in the grand scheme of things. HE is paramount. When we "testify" of things in this court where Satan is accusing day and night, we are testifying not about our own experience but of the work, character, and promise of God. We are testifying the things concerning HIM.
The night my spiritual eyes were opened is important to me. Telling that story may be of encouragement to other believers. But I didn't die for their sins. And since that night, day and night constantly, the Adversary (in court) continues to "accuse". It's not enough for me to wrap myself up in the blanket of my own testimony. What is VITAL is that the Lord Himself be and remain TRUE. HE's the One whose Testimony frees the brethren--all of them. The ones in the revelation testify against the accuser on behalf of the Lord and His brothers.
Here's a spiritual match:
1Ti 4:9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
1Ti 4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
1Ti 4:11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.
That's OUR testimony (the especially) in this spiritual court on behalf of the brethren being accused day and night. If you can testify/provide witness/bring evidence to that, then you are among those who are overcoming.
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Some really good thoughts Dave. Thanks guys.
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AMEN Dave in Tenn, AMEN!!!
To add to Mike's post.
In the Revelation passage, those who overcome are not pictured as "testifying" to others. Nor are they testifying (solely) about their personal faith. They overcome by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their "testimony".
What is more important--your faith and/or the story of your faith, or the One in Whom you have faith...The One who died for you. Is the Gospel more important or is your faith in the Gospel more important?
If you picture a courtroom (and Paul was quite literally in "court" at the rough time of his revelation/vision) YOU are not the only one being "accused". (What he does to the least of these My brethren he has done to Me). You and me and every other believer are not all that important in the grand scheme of things. HE is paramount. When we "testify" of things in this court where Satan is accusing day and night, we are testifying not about our own experience but of the work, character, and promise of God. We are testifying the things concerning HIM.
The night my spiritual eyes were opened is important to me. Telling that story may be of encouragement to other believers. But I didn't die for their sins. And since that night, day and night constantly, the Adversary (in court) continues to "accuse". It's not enough for me to wrap myself up in the blanket of my own testimony. What is VITAL is that the Lord Himself be and remain TRUE. HE's the One whose Testimony frees the brethren--all of them. The ones in the revelation testify against the accuser on behalf of the Lord and His brothers.
Here's a spiritual match:
1Ti 4:9 Faithful is the saying and worthy of all welcome
1Ti 4:10 (for for this are we toiling and being reproached), that we rely on the living God, Who is the Saviour of all mankind,
1Ti 4:11 especially of believers. These things be charging and teaching.
That's OUR testimony (the especially) in this spiritual court on behalf of the brethren being accused day and night. If you can testify/provide witness/bring evidence to that, then you are among those who are overcoming.