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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: chuckusa on July 27, 2006, 08:07:07 PM
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Hello to all,
Ray's position on attending church is quite clear. I happen to be in agreement with him on this although I do attend a local church. I left my previous church after being called out, and feel that God has led me to the one that I attend now.
My own position is that one can attend a church and benefit from many aspects of it if you are careful, and Ray stated this same opinion somewhat, but I can fully understand someones decision to stay completely away.
Here is my question to the forum, and especially to the new members, or to ones that have yet to post:
How are you dealing with this issue. Could you please briefly explain your experiences and rationale behind your decision to stay or go?
I am not attempting to test Rays teachings in any way, I am simply interested in how others are dealing with this and the experiences that they have encountered once they made their decision to do one or the other.
I also realize this may have already been done to death here, and if so...just let this post fade off into the sunset...haha!!!
Blessings to all,
Chuck
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God called me out of the church 15 years ago using the same scripture Ray uses. I was afraid to leave and it took me a year to finally really understand that God was really the one speaking to me. At that time God was teaching my brother and me the truth and we were the only two in the world that I knew of that believed that way. I thought I must be wrong and leaving the church made me feel like I was doomed. How could we be right and the huge church be wrong? God showed me in many ways that they were wrong and were teaching lies. The pastor of the church told me my beliefs would only lead me to despair and he got out all his books to prove me wrong. I was really devastated, but answered the call of God to come out of her.
I do not feel that God allows me to go back to church. When he called me out he also told me that he would gather us together. I've been looking for years and then I found all of you. My brother's wife and children attend church and he attends with them. He feels that God permits him to go to church and he has regular studies with his pastor relating to the truth. His pastor is open and willing to study with him. I don't question God's leading with someone else, but I do know that as of today God does not want me there.
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Thanks MG,
I think my problem is in the fact that I am afraid. I am afraid I will just go off in some dumb direction like before, if I don't stay in some type of fellowship. I'll be honest, it never occured to me that he may not want me at my new church either.
Thanks for sharing that with me.
Blessings,
Chuck
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Thanks MG,
I think my problem is in the fact that I am afraid. I am afraid I will just go off in some dumb direction like before, if I don't stay in some type of fellowship. I'll be honest, it never occured to me that he may not want me at my new church either.
Thanks for sharing that with me.
Blessings,
Chuck
As long as you maintain this type of humble attitude, I would think you'll be okay. Many folks would harden themselves and say "Oh there's no way God wants me to leave church." But the fact that you are deeply considering all of this and you confess that you're afraid shows humility, and God certainly won't forsake the humble.
I don't have much room to talk, because, thank God, I hadn't been attending church for many years, since I was a small child really. And in recent times God has been opening my eyes to all of these truths that are hidden form the masses, and once again, I am just thankful that I don't have to make such a difficult decision of how to leave church, because I have had no church.
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My wife and I still attend church, but for pragmatic reasons. We moved to our community about 2 years ago, and it has been the only way for us to make any friends. The church we go to is also pretty active in the community with helping people out, which also is something that we looked for.
But the down side is that it is an independent, charismatic, word of faith church, so sometimes we spend the drive home talking about what opinions were presented with the same force as scripture in the sermon. But, they are pretty mellow when it comes to talking about eternal hell. I don't think I've heard it mentioned. Come to think of it, I don't think I've heard an explanation of salvation in a sermon since I've been there......Hmm.
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We're still going to church as well. We just moved to a small-town in Michigan (from Colorado) and our local church has been great for our toddlers, as well as my wife.
We are fortunate enough to be able to have my wife stay home with the kids (ages 4 and 2). As some of you may know, that can be a pretty lonely existence for moms - especially in a new area, and even moreso where we live (out in the sticks). Our local church has been great for developing new friendships - for myself, my wife, and our two little girls.
We're going to a "baptist" church, but... I've heard through the grapevine that our pastor has studied topics such as "aion", "hell", "eternal", "tithing", etc... I thought it was pretty interesting to read the statement of faith that he put up on their website - he was very careful with his wording. I've yet to hear him even mention hell/eternal torment in any sermon (can you imagine that?! Never hearing of hell in a baptist church??) - but, when that day comes, I would imagine I'll likely confront him.
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I think that's a pretty true statement in general bobby... even in the music!! We're worship leaders, and I can't believe some of the stuff I hear from people - they'd rather put on a "rock show" (basically - to draw in more people) than "worship" through one of the forms: music. It blows my mind sometimes some of the stuff I hear.
Look at these mega churches - and the wishy-washy preaching of guys like Joel Olsteen (just for an example), and then take a look at the amount of people that are packed in there! It's mind-boggling.
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bobby - my initial thoughts were "man... that is so sad". I mean - you'd think - Wow! What an opportuity! But - the truth is... if that huge church were preaching the Truth - its seats would be empty. :'(
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Hi Chuck
I didn't leave my church until about 6 months after God revealed His truth to me. I couldn't bear to hear the lies of the preachers any longer. I found myself shaking my head at what was being said. It was a big struggle for me to leave the church, but after I made a "list" of reasons why I should stay, I was amazed that they were all SELFISH, not one reason for me to stay brought God glory...that was when I decided if I want to follow Him in all honesty and spirit of truth, I need to leave...who was I to please; me or Him? I haven't been sorry (and it's only been since July 2 that I left).
Now, I feel I have darts from Satan to dodge....my daughter just starting taking piano lessons from the worship pianist last year, and clearly God has given my daughter the gift of music... she has already played one song during a Sunday morning worship, she is still in lessons, the teacher asked me if she could continue to play in worship about once per month (she has a plan that I'll come back to church). I told my I probably wouldn't attend. She is playing this Sunday and now my daughter says if I don't go, she doesn't want to do it...I don't want to be the reason she doesn't play.
I am really feeling like if I go, I am putting my family before God, which I know I don't want to do, but then part of me reasons that I'm only going for my daughter, not for the preaching, but like Mongoose said, sometimes we learn even from them. As you can see, I'm a little "up in arms" about what to do...my husband, who never attended church with us when we did go, says he went to church the first time our daughter played JUST FOR HER and so now I should go JUST FOR HER. Sorry, I've kinda turned this around to my problem...but it just seemed a right place to post this. Thanks for listening.
Marie
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Hello to all,
Wow, this is really a lot to consider. See, for me...it just seemed to happen suddenly. I had just assumed that I should find a good church for me and my family. I recieved a card in the mail (an ad really) for a local Baptist church. We have been going about two years now.
My last church was a lesson. I realize that now. The lies, anger, and phony love at that place was unreal! Why people would get all dressed up just to go somwehere to "pretend" they care, and that they love God and people, I will never understand. I was a complete alien there. Toward the end, I was even asked to leave because I was confronting people about the lies. I refused, just so I could cause them a little more discomfort, believe it or not. I was getting very angry at this point.
I once went to the "authority" of the church to ask for help with one of the women in the church. I had been trying to engage her about christ for several years. Now this woman was the most miserable, sad creature I have ever seen, and I did EVERYTHING I could think of to help her. I stood up to her abusive husband, I offered to put her up in my house, I gave her money to buy food and gas for her car, I prayed continuously for her...I did what I felt God wanted me to do. I loved her as God commands
When I took my burden to the church, here is what they said. "All we can do is pray for her, and besides, you shouldn't be messing around with a married woman"...and I was asked to leave again. This time I did.
The new church was to me at the time, such a breath of fresh air. I was welcomed like never before. I had never met christians like these before. This is a big church (5000+) but the pastor, believe it or not remembers every single persons name. Other people have also noticed this. For some reason I am impressed with this. I hear good solid teaching, but some of you hit it just right...it can be a little watered down.
Thank you Marie for your comments. My daughter is in the choir and the active teens program. She LOVES it there. I know how you feel, and I appreciate you sharing how you are handling this.
I feel like I must now be VERY careful what I do in this matter. Only recently have I felt like an alien here. I don't know why. That is why I started this thread...I really need some direction for this decision. God SEEMS to have just nudged me a bit, I'm aware of this feeling but not sure what to do.
Thank you all for you comments, I hope to see more. Just knowing I am not the only person who has felt this way is a blessing to me now.
I will be reading all these posts carefully.
Thanks and blessings to all,
Chuck
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To stay or to go has not been my call...it's been God's. I was in the church for two years after getting born again. Then I felt like God called me out, by His Spirit. We were out for 17 years while fellowshipping in home groups. We did so for many years in several cities. Ironically, after we moved from each of those cities our homegroups had grown to the point that they became "non denominational" churches. That happened 3 times.
18 years ago God called my wife and I back into the 'traditional church' scene. The burden He placed on my heart was this: "If what you have is so good then why aren't you sharing it with the body" (of Christ)? I resisted for about a year...but that word kept hounding me. We finally did return to "The Church"! I had my rough times mind you, especially at the start. But I feel like I have an enviable position now, especially when I read posts like I've read here at BT. I truly have respect and favor...with the pastor, the elders, and the congregation and God.
I was never used in the gifts of the Spirit before...like I have been in recent years. And that's part of what has captured leadership's attention concerning me. Scripture says that Jesus was a man approved of God by signs and wonders. People in our church listen to my "radical","heretical" doctrinal views simply because they've seen/heard of authority being manifested 'through me' in the spiritual realm...authority that most of them don't walk in.
It's been said 'unless you're under authority you have no authority'. That principle was confirmed twice in scripture by Jesus. That has also been my experience...spiritually speaking. So does that mean you should leave or go? Nay, it means that 'you too' should be led of the Spirit. In the mentoring groups and home bible study groups I've led, I have a list of governing principles concerning those 'under' me. One of those principles says this: "If you leave because you're led...you're right. But if you leave because you're mad...you're wrong."
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I still go to church every Sunday, although I don't always agree with the preaching. I've thought about quitting, but it would put a tremendous burden on my mother. She already thinks one of her kids is going to hell; I don't want her to think she's losing me too. I can talk to her, and she'll agree with everything I show her, but then she soon forgets. Healthwise and agewise, she probably won't be around for many more years, so, for her own peace of mind, I feel like I must stay in church.
Also, I've had chances to bring up questions in Sunday School that get the people thinking and questioning things. The teacher once made the remark that he doesn't care what church doctrine says anymore and is more interested in what the Bible actually says. I wonder if he means that. I'm working on some "eye-openers" that I plan to give to him soon. It will either be the beginning of the end for me, or a means by which God can remove the blinders from his eyes.
For now, I'll bloom where I'm planted until God uproots me.
Sandy
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God does work in strange ways. I was brought up a Northern Irish protestant, i then came to England when i joined the navy and met my husband, who was a Scottish catholic. I went through a lot of problems with my family when i married him. I changed to Catholic (secretly from my family) after 9 yrs of marriage but refused to take part in, what i said were, man made rules (confession etc). We were really involved in the catholic church during navy days, as it was mailnly fellowship and childrens groups. We moved to London when my husband came out of the navy, for work. To cut a long story short, my sister in law beacame a " born again" christiian and was desperately trying to save us. My husband and i had a wonderful awesome experience with the Holy Slpirit, seperately i hasten to add, over a period of 2 weeks. He never told me about his experience as he thought i would think he was crazy. But one morning i woke up and said to him "Jesus is alive". Thats when we started to talk. We, after a couple of experiences with tithing churches, became involved with a calvary church in Westminster in London. The teachings, we felt, were great because we had never been encouraged to read the bible. Looking back the teachings were more centred on historics of biblical times. After a while we felt the spirit was making us restless, but really was revealing to us the various doctrines that disagreed with scripture. We decided not to attend for a while and just study. During this time, my husband was drawn to bibletruths.com. What a revelation, reading the articles was like coming home, everytime we read somerthing we would be going."yes, yes, i always felt that." Since then and that was about 1year ago we have not attended church, we have fellowship with my sister-in-law in our homes. The Lord has revealed so much to us . How blind we were. It is a lonely walk , although i have been blessed that my husband sees the same. But the lack of fellowship is hard at times, but i still could never go back into church and listen to heresies being taught. God has us were we are, because thats were He wants us, for those of you still attending, thats where He wants you to be, but dont partake of her sins.
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When I was first called out of the Church. I was totally lost and didn't have a clue as what to do now. Church was my LIFE. I mean it kept me busy. I would go to Sunday morning service, Wednesday night Bible Study and Choir rehearsal on Thursday. But as I continue to read things on Bible Truth I now realize that being busy like that was a waste of time.
Right now I'm still reading the Lake of Fire series and it's sad to see that many of my Family members and Friends are lost. But right now I'm the one that appear to be lost because I'm not going to nobody Church on Sunday.
I still haven't been totally honest to any of my Friends as to why I'm not going to Church. Because I really don't feel like explaining to them the reason why I'm not going. One of my friends invited me to go to Bible Study with her on next Thursday. I told her that I will go with her, because I just didn't have the guts to tell her NO.
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well, this is a topic I actually know about!- and I completely understand the fear of being out of the organized type of religion- since they make sure you are programmed into believing that you will fall into heresy, sin, and unbelief if you dare to "forsake the assembling"!
Our family attended 14+ churches over the course of 25 years.....one church we stayed in for 13 years and another church just about 13 days! It was quite a journey for all of us. It was hard at times and we suffered and lost friends and were disappointed and rejected and more. We were in mega- churches and home churches. essentially they were all the same. and had the same sad effects on all the people who attended. Their doctrines hurt people bad. The over emphasis on money and also the abuse of authority which they called "spiritual"
We have been officially out of any assembly for one year. Nothing terrible has happened to any of us. There is more spiritual growth and more open discussion of God, the Bible and Jesus than ever before. My kids are learning that the life of Christ is lived in the world serving others and not ourselves. and no more serving an idolatrous church. We were church slaves before and our kids endured a lot because of it. and we were always poor since we tithed and gave ridiculous offerings to people who had so much more material possesions than we did.
Now I can actually pay my bills each month and there is money for the poor as well.
I have tried to meet for "fellowship" with friends who are out of church too, but it always seems forced and I get that horrible sick feeling in my stomach when I think about it. It is not something the Holy Spirit is leading us into right now. We are pretty much alone with the Lord. Our extended family looks at us as backslidden. But we are finally happy. Church created such horrible conflicts for us with their inaccurate and shallow teaching and sometime downright anti-Christ..... it was always hard.
The Lord leads each person to the place they should be for that time. I think the trick is to always be listening and willing to move out or move on as He leads. I think we can all do this in God's timing without fear- because we know that He is working in us. It is not ourselves. He will use what we think we are deciding to do, we don't need to be afraid of making mistakes.
One thing I learned from my last post on asking questions was that He is leading us in the path He has set before us, in the race we are running and His Spirit will communicate all the comfort and information we need to move with Him especially when it looks impossible.
I do not think I could ever go back to the organized church. It just grates against me. I have no problems with others attending for their own reasons. and I do not try to get people to leave. It is all in God's hands. As I can see from reading over all the posts here He does it according to each one's situation and needs. we will all have different experiences in the process of coming out of it.
All your journeys have been great to hear- and of course the encouragement that we are not the only people who have gone this way is wonderful to know.
blessings to all.
judie h
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Well, here goes ol' snorky again on this vital issue. I go to a very small mountain comunity non-denominational church (pastored by a Baptist...oh, well.) As I have been reading Ray's stuff and other sites with Biblical Truth and being better able to discern the Bible with the Holy Spirit in me, I DO feel called out...but not sure, because the reason I still go to church is I clean it since I need the money (and no I don't tithe, attend their Bible study or other special functions, and, yes, I shake my head when the pastor preaches nonsense like the rapture or hell for eternity--after all, he did go to a Baptist seminary so he's brainwashed, obviously), and he knows I don't believe in that but that seems to be okay with him--half the very small congregation doesn't either!) So I "had a talk with God" over it, and I "talked" that if God would provide another method of employment whereby I could pay for my meds (I must stay in the mountains because I homeschool and it must be only a few hours a week). I'd quit the cleaning job, then quit the church. If God really wants me out of that church, He'll provide.
Some really good news...my son, who is now at Texas A & M Galveston, is NOT attending the "big" (mega?) church there on the campus. Said it was too big, and I said great, don't go to church, just keep reading the Bible.
There WILL be repercussions if I quit. This is a VERY close knit community situated in what some would call "God's country" (the Big Bend high plains of far west Texas). Some will be based on the fact that all the members gave my son a "going away to college" party and all 25 or so of them gave him altogether over $1,000! Some members are self-righteous hypocrites but other members are truly loving and would give the shirt off their back. Some always want to bring up politics (religious right), but some are totally against politics. Some are dying to be "raptured" and some know that's hogwash. I founf out the other day at least 2 of them believe in universal reconcilation! That was a real biggie! Now, my pastor there, who as I said preaches the rapture and hell every so often, does get it right quite a bit. For instance, he does emphasize giving, Jesus "calling" and "choosing" instead of all that stuff about someone "saving" themselves by praying a sinner's prayer, and faith over works and has said he never wants to preach in a megachurch. Simply we don't have all the ritualistic and organizational nonsense mega churches have.
Yet if God really does call me out I will leave no matter what they do (and I'll hear about them losing their only chior alto, that's for sure!). My daughter won't have the party my son had, either. My husband, who thinks organized religion is a crock (and could care less if he goes to church or not), won't mind at all.
Deb
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I don't even bother with going to church. My husband says that they're always asking for money, and that's why he doesn't go. He also doesn't go because he is very ill. I told my daughter a little bit of what is on BT, and she told me that she will not go to church anymore cause they lie. I don't know my brother's reason for not attending church.
Recently a classmate at school asked me if i went to church. i told him no. he then reminded me of Heb. 10:25. I wanted to ask him "where does it say we should go to church?" i kept my mouth shut instead. i have a pretty good sense about people when i am talking with them. i know that when the time is right, God will let me speak.
Ruth
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There is what is called. The Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. At the top of the Hierarchy is "Self-actualization" note not CHRIST actualization but SELF okay. So,my point is this.....the way, according to Maslow to arrive at "Self-actualization is via these needs from hte most basic starting with Physiological needs being having food, water, oxygen etc...then safety and security, then....and this is where for me the Church fits itself in....BELONGINGNESS and AFFECTION, then comes approval and prestige and after all this is the top achievement of self-actualization.....
I like what it says in the Scripture that Christ choses us we do not choose Him and that God drags us to Christ because we, in the flesh like to belong, we like to be approved and esteemed and admired.....it is a flesh thing....! We do not want to be alone or isolated or rejected. Playing Church is a comfort game that brings millions of hurting people together. Does one sermon teach that to follow Christ we should suffer rejection, that we should not pay evil for evil or that we should suffer persecution and abuse in a spirit of forgiveness. NO! Such teaching would bring the psychological order of control over the masses to chaos! How can anyone in their right mind teach that you should be abused and not retaliate, you should be rejected and love and bless in return.....that you should stand before God and be blameless as was Christ. Oh no. The Church will not teach the truth and it is backed up by the world teaching SELF as the way to go.
Ray lists in Lake of Fire part 2 what Christian theologians refuse to teach under the sub title. THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED-ED TONGUE. I want to know and discern the truth but it does come at a price. Ignorance is bliss! But it is a sore blessing to know that if you go to a banquet and the food is five star but it has a little bit of deadly poison in it that will kill you slowly, it is for me better to no go no matter how tastey some of the dishes are. I am seeing the poison more and more so I am not able to go to the party.....Just today I watched Paula White. I was hungry for some food and saw only poison on the plate!....
Ray points out that Satan has his throne in the Chruch and Christ is only visiting.....so I think I want to start a thred on where to go to be fed.....Where and what are some of us doing to get into HIS Presence?
Hope to hear from you.
Arcturus
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I've home churched for many years, primarily to be able to include my special needs child. I would go to church from time to time out of guilt that I was not "doing the right thing" in the eyes of the church...it was always an overwhelming burden and never "felt" right....
then in May 2000, I attended one more special service because everyone said; "you've just GOT to be here for this one!" A special prophetic group had come to town and promised to "teach us" great things! Oh my!! ::) That night, the "gold dust" phenomenon manifested itself in our church. I just couldn't believe my eyes....I made a few of the people who were getting the dust on them stand still and let me closely examine their hands and sure enough....there WAS a golden sparkling substance appearing on their hands and arms.....I just freaked out completely....a few other really "weird things" happened that night....I won't bore you with the details....I left...came straight home with my mouth still open and my mind spinning.....when I was able to sit alone in the dark and think about it....I felt that I had witnessed "lying signs and wonders" right before my eyes....I went online looking for information about "gold dust" and came across a site that warned a great deal about this & other phenomena which were happening world wide at that time....they also promoted "home churching" for reasons other than Ray's ....but since that time, I've been home...and after finding Ray's site last year, I am at last, very satisfied with staying out of Babylon for good....a brief encounter with the church recently made me think that God might be leading back into the church to minister only....but that is just not happening for me....so, that must not be God's will , right?
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This is my second post here but this is exaclty the topic I prayed for!
MY first thoughts after reading some fo Ray's teachings and his views on church was, "Oh no, we're going to have to pack up and leave. Or, at least I will".
We attend a Nazarene church. I am afraid that if people knew what I really think then I/we would be asked to leave.
We don't want to leave. Why? Our motto is this..."Doing life togehter". We value relationships, not only with each other but our ultimate relationship with Jesus. Our church doesn't go on and on about the "holiness" doctrine that some other Nazarene churches teach. Our worship is contemperary and I am heavilly involved with this. I sing and play trumpet and believe that these God-given gifts are to be used to help others. Outside of church, I see very little opportunity to use these unless I stand on a street corner somewhere.
We have two teenage daughters and whether or not they admit it, we believe that it benefits them to be involved with the youth of the church. However, I've been sharing what I've read here to them when the opportunity presents itself.
So, for now, we stay. We don't feel guilty about not "tithing" but we do give. Yes, sometimes its money and sometimes its clothes or food, depending on the need.
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This is my second post here but this is exaclty the topic I prayed for!
MY first thoughts after reading some fo Ray's teachings and his views on church was, "Oh no, we're going to have to pack up and leave. Or, at least I will".
We attend a Nazarene church. If anyone is familiar with that denomination then you know that many of the church's doctrines are exactly those that Ray goes to great lengths to prove are wrong using God's word and Truth. That said, I am afraid that if people knew what I really think then I/we would be asked to leave. Can you imagine a Nazarene professing that tithing is unscriptural? Huh?!?! But, I would in a second if asked.
We don't want to leave. Why? Our motto is this..."Doing life togehter". We value relationships, not only with each other but our ultimate relationship with Jesus. Our church doesn't go on and on about the "holiness" doctrine that some other Nazarene churches teach. Our worship is contemperary and I am heavilly involved with this. I sing and play trumpet and believe that these God-given gifts are to be used to help others. Outside of church, I see very little opportunity to use these unless I stand on a street corner somewhere.
We have two teenage daughters and whether or not they admit it, we believe that it benefits them to be involved with the youth of the church. However, I've been sharing what I've read here to them when the opportunity presents itself.
So, for now, we stay. We don't feel guilty about not "tithing" but we do give. Yes, sometimes its money and sometimes its clothes or food, depending on the need.
Those folks at the last Mobile conference help me out here; I believe I heard Ray speak very briefly about not poo-pooing on the church too bad because that is where most of the many called few chosen come from. I can't remember his exact words, is that close?
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Hi Patrick,
Yes, that was about the essence of what Ray said at the Conference and it is true, that is where the elect are called out from and the church is serving it's purpose in that regard.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi Keys2Heaven
I know what you mean....I too was comfortable in my Church....rather like comfortable with alcohal or drugs...no...I have not been either an alcohalic or a drug adict.. a sinner Yes....for (we have ALL fallen short of His Glory)...nevertheless, after reading your post it just reminded me of me and I wanted to write to you.....
What I read in Ray's Lake Of Fire part 2 THEY SPEAK WITH FORKED-ED TONGUE.. I never knew before I only found out much later after my Church had made me stumble, fall and fail....it was sweet while it lasted though....because I did not know I was stumbling falling and failing because of the sweet smell of anesthetic... Deception has a sweet smell!....it is us who stink in their nostrils as in the stench of death....Don't be surprised if that starts happening to you....It happened to me and it was a SHOCK.....an unexpected shock
I hear me in your post and I see me ....and it can not but hurt because after all, we do not come to Christ of our own....He draggs us.....I see HIM dragging you, calling you....leading you....helping you....
2 Cor 2:15,16..For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:....to the latter it is an aroma wafted from death to death, a fatal odor, the smell of doom.....
That smell I became to my Chuch members......I had NO IDEA!...BUT THEY DID!
I have been brought here by the loving care of Christs Spirit Himself as I know you have been too......I have had trouble coming to terms with the loss of my outside comfort zone (Church fellow-shop for souls) ....I was a Cell leader and Minister of the Word and daily I attended Church so like you, I was...."heavily involved"....and now I am called out.....as He has guided me towards the experience that His Kingdom is truly within....I have recieved generous help from and through Christs wisdom, council and comfort here. Please do not get me wrong. it is not my place to teach or preach but I can share ..an I am so glad I did....
May your joy increase as you follow after Christ....
Arcturus :)
.....
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clv luke 12:51-53; 51 Are you supposing that I came along to give peace to the earth? No, I am saying to you, but rather division,
52 For from now on there will be five in one home divided, three against two, and two against three will be divided,
53 father against son and son against father, and mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law."
clv luke 14:26-27; 26 "If anyone is coming to Me and is not hating his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, and still more his soul besides, he can not be My disciple.
27 And anyone who is not bearing his cross and coming after Me, can not be My disciple.
now this does not mean that you have to literally hate your family. what it means is this. your love and devotion to him should be to the point that everything else actually feels like it is coming between you and christ. this would feel like hate. for example if you felt like someone was coming between you and your spouse would you not feel like hating them? christ not only wants you to love him he wants you to be in love with him( hence the bridegroom is coming for his bride the church ).
it is very hard for me to talk to my family sometimes because they are so full of themselves in what they believe (not that i never have been) i sometimes could almost hate them because they are coming between christ and myself. i do understand the conflick. look at it this way, God is in control and he will take care of things. when it is time for you to change your scenery you will know. one more thing, always remember everyone we love is going to be saved either now or later. so don't worry too much, just seek God's wisdom and counsil and you will be just fine.
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Hey all,
Joyful1, i noticed you said but that is just not happening for me....so, that must not be God's will , right?
I just wanted to make sure you are not troubled with the thought that "Something's not happening now, therefore it's God's will for it not to be happening, therefore if i do anything to make it happen i would be going against God's will.". This is a very dangerous untrue thought to think. I believe it is important for all of us to try to do what is right based on what we understand God's will to be, not based on what God has already caused to happen. Otherwise, we can think things like "I'm depressed, therefore God wants me to be depressed, therefore i shouldn't try do anything to change being depressed." What a depressing thought eh? I'm not saying this is what you are saying Joyful, but your quote brought this point to my mind.
As far as being called out of the church goes, for me it was a little different in that i have only attended church 3 times that i can remember in my life. So i never really regularly attended church. However, i DID believe in some of the damable hersies that i now know to be untrue, simply because i believed that if the bible said it then it must be true, although the thought of people going to hell never really did sit well with me. I did on occasion comfort myself with the scripture "With God all things are possible." That scripture allowed me to believe that God would still somehow save people from hell, maybe after they had been there awhile. But, thank goodness God led me here to learn the truth that no one goes to hell!
God Bless,
Sean
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Sean,
I've thought and thought about free-will and God's will this past week--sometimes I go to the sink to do the dishes and think; "I really don't want to do these....what if I just leave them here forever? what will happen? will God FORCE me to do them? LOL....and crazy thoughts like that ...like....questioning exactly how this "non-free-will" thingy works. Do you know what I mean? The only way that I can know if its God will or not, is if it "comes to pass"....Do you see that? or Not? :::still thinking she can get away with not doing the dishes today!::::: ;D
joyful1
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Sean,
I've thought and thought about free-will and God's will this past week--sometimes I go to the sink to do the dishes and think; "I really don't want to do these....what if I just leave them here forever? what will happen? will God FORCE me to do them? LOL....and crazy thoughts like that ...like....questioning exactly how this "non-free-will" thingy works. Do you know what I mean? The only way that I can know if its God will or not, is if it "comes to pass"....Do you see that? or Not? :::still thinking she can get away with not doing the dishes today!::::: ;D
joyful1
Hi Joyce,
If you had "free will" you could eliminate the dirty dishes just by willing it. You have the "choice" of doing them, leaving them, throwing them away, or paying someone to do them. But no matter what, you have to deal with them in some manner. The point is that we are constantly in situations we must deal with, we do have choices and make decisions but we cannot avoid the situations and must deal with the consequences of the choices we make. If you were to cut your finger while doing the dishes you could let it bleed, put on a band aid, go to the hospital but no matter what you have to deal with the bleeding finger, your "free will" is impotent in willing it to be healed. If you drive to the hospital and have a flat tire, you can get out and walk, take a cab or a bus, or you could change the tire, but no matter what you must deal with the flat tire, you cannot use "free will" to make the situation just go away. When you finally get to the hospital you see 20 people waiting ahead of you, you have the choice of waiting, turning around and leaving to try another hospital or screaming like a raving lunatic (my solution) to get prompt attention, your "free will" cannot change the circumstances that you are forced to deal with. Who is it that forces these circumstances? Who is the only one with a "free will" to change any circumstances at any time in any manner?
I hope this helps,
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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What a great thread. I am learning so much. I too get mixed up a little on the "free-will thingy". Joe, good teaching on that.
About church, I sometimes go to see my granddaughter. I left the Babylonian system years ago-in the spirit. Is going into a building with a bunch of people-in the physical?? Just cuz they call it church doesn't mean it is. I do have trouble telling people what I am doing now-I mean those who know I was very involved in church. They also get suspicious of any Internet fellowship ;)
The Lord has us all in different places for our individual needs. I judge no one for going or not going. To me, worse than going to church, would be to sit and watch TBN ughhhhh......
gena
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So in essence, Joe, what you are saying is this: we can make choices, but the things that God has purposed for us to experience, we will experience, one way or another?
::::looking around for a place to store those dirty dishes:::: ;D
joyful1
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Yes, Joyful1,
We are forced to choose by the circumstances God has set before us, we are being molded by Him, we are the clay in His hands. The clay has no power over the Potter.
Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?
Isa 64:8 But now, O LORD, thou art our father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.
Free will is a myth, we can choose within the confines of the circumstances He has set before us, all of us will learn to make the right choices at some point, whether we like it or not, but eventually all humanity will come to love our Lord and His (and our) Father praising Him on bended knee singing the praises of God from our converted, incorruptable hearts.
Isa 45:22 Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
Isa 45:23 I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth, in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Phi 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven and things in earth, and things under the earth;
I can't see any room at all for "free will" in the above verses.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I agree free will is a myth, but still don't think that God is making us choose between two things. For exampl, take Eve in the garden. Did God make her choose between good and bad or was eating the fruit the only choice she could make? True, Eve sinned before eating of the tree of good & evil. So, would she have known that she was making a bad choice? It seems that she would not have until she ate.
Sure, we have the ability to make choices. No on denies that. But if the very God who knew you before you were born, knows the number of hairs on your head, certainly knows how you will chose.
If God causes all of the circumstances around us that lead to our "choosing" that doesn't mean that God is ignorant of the choice we make beforehand. To us, it may seem that we had a choice to make, but God already knew the choice that was made.
Am I hosed up on this?
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No, our choice in any matter does not surprise Him as He knows our heart/mind. It is not the actual physical acts that judge us it is our thoughts and desires.
If I were to help Joyful1 change her tire as she was on her way to the hospital to have the finger she cut while doing the dishes treated, and as I helped her I was silently swearing and cussing about not really having the time to do it and now my clothes are all sweaty and dirty, I still have helped out physically but where do my thoughts have me spiritually?
He creates the circumstances (the mold) that shapes His pottery (clay).
After I calm down and meditate and grieve over my thoughts I realize how weak and carnal I really am and humbly pray for His Spirit to strengthen me, to remake my spirit more pleasing to Him.
This is how He molds and shapes us.
I can assure you I did not (or even mean to imply) surprise God in my actions and thoughts.
I hope this clears up my point.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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::::::getting out the FREE WILL notes again to read once more!:::::
::::papers flying all over the floor, making a perfect reason to avoid those dishes on the counter::::::
;D