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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: cheekie3 on August 19, 2016, 07:57:59 AM
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All -
I have been researching The Scriptures, and I cannot find any instance, whereby Jesus Christ Himself claimed He was Almighty God.
There are plenty of places where He refers to Himself as 'The Son of God' and 'The Son of Man'.
Did Ray ever teach that Jesus claimed to be Almighty God?
I know this is an enigma - but do The Scriptures actually show that Jesus Himself (and not anyone else) claimed to be Almighty God?
And yes, I know, that Our Heavenly Father and His Beloved Son are 'One'.
What do you all think.
Thank You.
Kind Regards.
George
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Hi George,
It is to my understanding there is one God which is the Father and that Jesus came forth from the Father . Jesus is our God and God the Father is Jesus God but God the Father has no God.
Hope that helps.
God bless.
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Cheekie, if you believe that Jehovah of the Hebrew scriptures became Jesus of the New Testament scriptures, then the answer is more clear.
We've learned from experience that this "issue" is one that can't be hashed out on the forum. I'd just advise any reader to read, watch, or listen to the materials on B-T and challenge your own assumptions. Assumptions are so plentiful, that it's beyond impractical to deal with them all in forum posts.
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Hi George, I did find a scripture of Jesus Himself calling Himself the Almighþ.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Now there are plenty of scriptures under the inspiration of God that refer to the Lord as the Almighty including several more in the NT but I cant think of any other were Jesus Himself says that in the new testament. There are plenty where He does in the OT though.
Here are some interesting emails from ray that may provide some insight into where he was leading with his enigma of God series.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13550.0.html
Ray,
When will your new paper be finished? I feel like his spirit in me says that in the flesh Jesus was
completely man, he had divested himself of divinity, but in spirit he is once again the creator god.
From Randy
Dear Randy: I have no idea. Only God knows. A better question would be: "When will you START
writing your new paper?" I have not been feeling very well the whole last year. However, I have been
reading and studying a lot, also taking hundreds of pages of notes, but I haven't written but a few
pages on what could be called my "New Paper." I know people think that I should be able to solve
in a few months what hundreds of thousands of theologians, scholars, teachers, and ministers have
not been able to solve in over two thousand years, but that is not the case I'm afraid. There are
numerous problems with the appearing of Jesus Christ in the New Testament as not only the Son of
God, but God Himself, and yet remain true to the teaching that there is only ONE GOD. I may know
the answer, but Scripturally proving it is a little more difficult than most can imagine.
Who was Jesus when "he had divested himself of divinity" as you say? The only "Jesus" we are
told of in the Bible is the One Who was born of the virgin Mary. Who was He and where was He at
the time that He "divested" Himself? Where do we find Jesus Christ BEFORE the New Testament?
Where did He come from? Who was He BEFORE He divested His divinity and BEFORE He was
born of a virgin? Is He even mentioned in the Old Testament? Or did the God of the Old Testament
divest Himself of His divinity?
If there is only ONE God and that ONE God "divested" Himself of His divinity, then Who is running the
Universe? Who remains as a God UN-divested of Divinity? If you say that that God is God the Father,
then Who was the God that divested Himself of divinity? If you say Jesus, then we have TWO GODS--
One divested and One UN-divested! If there was but ONE GOD and that One God divested Himself
of His divinity and DIED, then how is it that we still have TWO LIVING GODS? We have [1] Jesus, the
One that Thomas called "My LORD and my GOD," and we have [2] God the Father Who raised the
"LORD AND GOD" of doubting Thomas from the dead. See what mean? It's a ENIGMA!! May God
grant us all patience till we come into a greater knowledge of the Truth.
Ray
------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13321.0.html
Dear Ray,
I enjoyed your article on the Trinity. Just a question, we know that the Father of Jesus Christ was not created.
From what you wrote and what I see in the scriptures, I feel that the son Jesus Christ had a beginning, which is not the case of Father.
I would like your opinion on it.
cordially
Élisée
Dear Elisee: Both the Father and the Son are scarcely alluded to in
the Hebrew Scriptures. Well then, WHO IS GOD of the Hebrew Scriptures?
You'll have to wait till I finish my research for what I believe is the Scriptural
answer to this enigma. There is far more to this subject than most could
ever imagine, and yet, the answer has been there all the time, it's just that
we haven't believed the Scriptures. And giving the answer and proving the
answer are two different things, I assure you. At least I now know the Name
of the Father.
God be with you,
Ray
-----------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html
Gina's insightful question
« on: May 24, 2011, 06:33:57 PM »
Dear Forum: I asked Gina if she would mind me posting her email and my reply
on the Forum--she consented. With my reply to Gina, I have now given you (our
Forum readers only, as it will be some time before I do a study and paper on this)
the key to understanding just Who God is.
We will also delve into the "What"
aspect of God. All of the Scriptures must agree or we are not understanding or
teaching properly. I have said for many years that "Jesus IS GOD" (see pp 22-23
of my article "God is NOT a Trinity." But if Jesus IS God and His Father IS God
don't we then have TWO GODS? There is ONLY ONE GOD! Yes, this does
appear to be an unsolvable enigma, but it is not unsolvable. I have said and taught
further through the years that not only is Jesus God, but He is the ONLY GOD that
we will every truly know in this life. And why do I say that? Well for one thing, that
IS what the Scriptures teach: "And this IS life eternal [eonian--'And this is the
Aionian Life..."--Emphatic Diaglott." ], that they might know Thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou has sent" (John 17:3). Yes, it will take "aions/eons"
to come to know God the Father. It won't happen in this life. So what is the purpose
of us receiving eonian life? To come to "...know Thee the only true God..."
I am receiving emails from some who are trying to "beat me to the punch" so to speak, in
revealing just Who and/or What is our God. I have neither the time nor the inclination
to go through all of these emails to critique all these speculations, but I am sure there
will be some who will attempt to to get their teaching on the Forum before I do. I encourage
study and research, however, let's not be guilty of doing it for the sake of vanity. And this
is not to say that some have some truthful insight into this subject, but there is so much
more to this teaching that just solving the riddle of how the Father and Son can both be God
if.....I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities.
"Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God is ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4).
"I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word [singular] WAS GOD" (John 1:1).
"I am the LORD, and there is non else, there is NO GOD BESIDE ME" (Isa. 45:5--"none
else" ver. 14; "none else" ver. 18; "none beside Me" ver. 21; "I am God, there is none else"
ver. 22; "I am God, there is none like Me," Isa. 46:9; "I am and there is none else beside
Me," Isa. 47:8).
"There is none other God, BUT ONE...But to us there is BUT ONE GOD" (I Cor. 8:4 & 6).
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord
our God is ONE LORD" (Mark. 12:29).
As to how many "Gods" there are, there is no argument! There is but ONE GOD! I have
now given you part of the answer, but there is much to follow. We know what the Scripture
says, but how is it possible for two to be one God? There is an answer, but I would ask
that you reserve sending me either questions or outlines of your own personal studies until
after I have an opportunity to publish my research.
I am working on a write-up on what "herbs" I take, and just what many of these "herbs" are
that God mentions in the Scriptures.
God be with you all,
Ray
----- Forwarded Message -----
Subject: Re: I have a question
Ray,
It's about your post on the forum to Kat's question.
You said,
"If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God,
the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." ..... What would happen if we
were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )?
"But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...."
Why did you change the word "one" to the word "the"? Is the word "one"
also spurious?
Thanks for your time. No need to answer if you aren't feeling up to it.
Gina
Dear Gina: Boy you are pretty observant, Gina. Actually I did not intend to use the
article "the" at all, and I would shorten the statement even further to the lowest
number of words which would still retain Paul's premise. I just didn't want to try and
cover this teaching in an e-mail which will probably take a hundred pages. But let's
finish my thought, and I will then reserve further comment until I am ready to reveal
my findings. The King James reads:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom
are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8: 6).
Notice the lite face type added by the translators to make Paul's statement mor
readable. By taking out the added words we lose nothing:
"But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in Him,
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by Him."
Paul's subject in this chapter is "idols." So He is teaching Who the real God is.
Who is the "one God" of Whom he speaks? He answers: "the FATHER," followed
by a description of the Father's role in the universe, but if we take out the description
of His role we loose nothing, as the thought is the same only shortened: "to us there is
one God, THE FATHER. But Paul doesn't end his statement with a period. There is
more to follow. He also speaks of "one Lord Jesus Christ" and a description of His
role in the universe. Okay, let's leave out ALL the descriptive words describing both
of Their roles, and we have this:
"...to us...ONE GOD: the Father...AND...Jesus."
I am not suggesting that this is the way to study all Scripture, by taking out
words, but I am trying to draw attention to the most important words.
Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?
God be with you,
Ray
---------------
Hope it helps some.
God bless,
Alex
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Are you looking for scripture where Christ referred to Himself as 'Almighty God' specifically using the words 'Almighty God'?
Or are you asking for scripture where He referred to Himself as God and not only the son of God?
In John 8 He says "before Abraham was, I am".
Is this Christ calling Himself God? Is this what you're looking for?
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Matthew 27:46 Jesus Cries out my God my God why have you forsaken me.
How would this fit in with Jesus being God Almighty if there is only one God ?
Interesting post George.
God bless.
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Let me say it again.
We've learned from experience that this "issue" is one that can't be hashed out on the forum. I'd just advise any reader to read, watch, or listen to the materials on B-T and challenge your own assumptions. Assumptions are so plentiful, that it's beyond impractical to deal with them all in forum posts.
I'd love to leave the thread open long enough to answer the OP's question to his satisfaction. But it won't stay open long enough to answer everybody's curiosity.
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Matthew 27:46 Jesus Cries out my God my God why have you forsaken me.
How would this fit in with Jesus being God Almighty if there is only one God ?
Interesting post George.
God bless.
Here's an email exchange. You'll have to do some thinking on how it applies to your question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2775.0.html
> How are you doing Ray? Blessed I believe.
>
> I really appreciate the research that you have submitted yourself to under
> GOD's hand. I'm striving for such myself, (no flattery intended). I don't
> yet consider myself learned, but I'm aware of the holy spirits work in my
> life. I have a question for you if you will?, I have been hearing for a
> long time that when Jesus died on the cross he was seperated from the
> father, i don't find that in the scriptures atleast not in the sense that
> they are suggesting. They (ministers) constantly say that GOD turned his
> back on Jesus on the cross, I disagree with that... Jesus said I and the
> father are one. Even as Paul said i am convinced that nothing shall seperate
> us from the Love of GOD. Even though Jesus did go to the place of Sheol,
> how is it possible for him to take the keys from the Devil without authority
> upon hi gh, for without the spirit of GOD who is Jesus? There is another
> issue bothering me how they say Jesus said "Father why hast though forsaken
> me...?" which ties into the first question...Jesus was constantly aware, all
> through the gospel you hear him saying "its not my time yet," "Its not my
> time". If Jesus knew the intentions of GOD doesn't it seem like doubt for
> him to ask why have you forsaken me, considering that he was completely
> aware what the Fathers will was, and what was going to happen? Or was that
> the whole purpose of him saying it, to get us to identify with the
> sepration? Cause to me that seems like something the devil would say not
> GOD.
> Directly after he said that statement, He screamed and there was and
> earthquake, like something in the spirit realm took place, and then he says
> like it was nothing "It is done..." I think theres something else behind
> tha t But i don't believe for a second GOD turned his back on His only
> Begotten son, am I am wrong on this?
>
> May GOD further you...
No, David, neither do I believe that God "turned HIs back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
God be with you,
Ray
-----------------------------------
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician. Upon Aijeleth-Shahar. A Psalm of David. My *God, my *God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou far from my salvation, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 My God, I cry by day, and thou answerest not; and by night, and there is no rest for me:
Psa 22:3 And thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers confided in thee: they confided, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered; they confided in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and the despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying:
Psa 22:8 Commit it to Jehovah--let him rescue him; let him deliver him, because he delighteth in him!
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb; thou didst make me trust, upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb; thou art my *God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have encompassed me; Bashan's strong ones have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gape upon me with their mouth, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is become like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaveth to my palate; and thou hast laid me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have encompassed me; an assembly of evil-doers have surrounded me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may count all my bones. They look, they stare upon me;
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But thou, Jehovah, be not far from me ; O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog;
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth. Yea, from the horns of the buffaloes hast thou answered me.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and revere him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him: but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise is from thee, in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise Jehovah that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah, and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee:
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's, and he ruleth among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, and he that cannot keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it .
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There are certain things that you will not find spoken outright in the Scripture, and that is because there must be room for the blind to be deceived. I mean if everything was spoken clearly how could there be deception? That why Christ spoke in parables. As Largeli mentioned what Christ said of Himself is "I AM," and that He used as the same name in speaking to Moses "I AM that I AM" (Exo 3:14). I believe that statement contacts Him as Almighty God, used for Him throughout the OT and in Revelation.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
I guess being His Son is not considered enough to be God? I think that's because we look on Father and Son as 2 separate beings. Christ states that He was "in Him" as part of the Father and as the Father was also "in Christ" and complete directed Him in every way.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
That Scripture says that Christ was "equal" to God, as in His status of being part of the Father. Well still some may say these Scripture were not speaking about while Christ was a flesh and blood man... I certainly do not believe He lost His God status when He came in the flesh.
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Rom 9:4 who are Israelis. To them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises.
v. 5 To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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This scripture seems to suggest that Christ is God almighty.
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
God bless.
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There is also the Shema in Deut 6:4 which Christ re-iterates in the new testament with 'Jehovah' in the old becoming 'Kurios' in the new which is the Lord Jesus. So Jesus is indirectly revealing Himself as God.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord ['kurios'] and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Also consider why Jesus came the first time, it was to serve and love. To show us the way in humility. He was very humble, which is something that sets him apart from all the false gods of this earth because they come seeking fame, power, service, but Jesus came to wash the feet of mortal men.
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I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?
In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.
I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .
God bless.
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I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?
In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.
I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .
God bless.
It very simple. No man has seen God the Father except His only begotten Son. In spirit or any other way. Don't add to the word of God.
(ASV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(CLV) God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
(Diaglott-NT) God no one has seen ever; the only-begotten son, that being in the bosom of the Father, he has made known.
(KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(Rotherham) No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him .
(YLT) God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
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Hi Dennis,
What my meaning was is did Jesus say -
ASV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Jesus could say that because God is spirit and so no one in the flesh can see spirit but did not Philip say (and this is not a direct quote )to Jesus show us the Father and Jesus said if you have seen me you have seen the Father, again not a direct quote .
I explained before the world is coming out of my life so for me no tv , and I thank God for that but no internet either. Maybe I should get internet again only for the propose for this forum so as to copy and past scripture.
When I put any scripture down these days there is no copy and pasting for me I need to type it out from my bible so I do use memory , God forgive me.
So I don't feel I was adding to the word of God if anything I was leaving stuff out .
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Alex -
Thank you for this very informative Post:
Hi George, I did find a scripture of Jesus Himself calling Himself the Almighþ.
Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Now there are plenty of scriptures under the inspiration of God that refer to the Lord as the Almighty including several more in the NT but I cant think of any other were Jesus Himself says that in the new testament. There are plenty where He does in the OT though.
Here are some interesting emails from ray that may provide some insight into where he was leading with his enigma of God series.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13550.0.html
Ray,
When will your new paper be finished? I feel like his spirit in me says that in the flesh Jesus was
completely man, he had divested himself of divinity, but in spirit he is once again the creator god.
From Randy
Dear Randy: I have no idea. Only God knows. A better question would be: "When will you START
writing your new paper?" I have not been feeling very well the whole last year. However, I have been
reading and studying a lot, also taking hundreds of pages of notes, but I haven't written but a few
pages on what could be called my "New Paper." I know people think that I should be able to solve
in a few months what hundreds of thousands of theologians, scholars, teachers, and ministers have
not been able to solve in over two thousand years, but that is not the case I'm afraid. There are
numerous problems with the appearing of Jesus Christ in the New Testament as not only the Son of
God, but God Himself, and yet remain true to the teaching that there is only ONE GOD. I may know
the answer, but Scripturally proving it is a little more difficult than most can imagine.
Who was Jesus when "he had divested himself of divinity" as you say? The only "Jesus" we are
told of in the Bible is the One Who was born of the virgin Mary. Who was He and where was He at
the time that He "divested" Himself? Where do we find Jesus Christ BEFORE the New Testament?
Where did He come from? Who was He BEFORE He divested His divinity and BEFORE He was
born of a virgin? Is He even mentioned in the Old Testament? Or did the God of the Old Testament
divest Himself of His divinity?
If there is only ONE God and that ONE God "divested" Himself of His divinity, then Who is running the
Universe? Who remains as a God UN-divested of Divinity? If you say that that God is God the Father,
then Who was the God that divested Himself of divinity? If you say Jesus, then we have TWO GODS--
One divested and One UN-divested! If there was but ONE GOD and that One God divested Himself
of His divinity and DIED, then how is it that we still have TWO LIVING GODS? We have [1] Jesus, the
One that Thomas called "My LORD and my GOD," and we have [2] God the Father Who raised the
"LORD AND GOD" of doubting Thomas from the dead. See what mean? It's a ENIGMA!! May God
grant us all patience till we come into a greater knowledge of the Truth.
Ray
------------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13321.0.html
Dear Ray,
I enjoyed your article on the Trinity. Just a question, we know that the Father of Jesus Christ was not created.
From what you wrote and what I see in the scriptures, I feel that the son Jesus Christ had a beginning, which is not the case of Father.
I would like your opinion on it.
cordially
Élisée
Dear Elisee: Both the Father and the Son are scarcely alluded to in
the Hebrew Scriptures. Well then, WHO IS GOD of the Hebrew Scriptures?
You'll have to wait till I finish my research for what I believe is the Scriptural
answer to this enigma. There is far more to this subject than most could
ever imagine, and yet, the answer has been there all the time, it's just that
we haven't believed the Scriptures. And giving the answer and proving the
answer are two different things, I assure you. At least I now know the Name
of the Father.
God be with you,
Ray
-----------http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,13157.0.html
Gina's insightful question
« on: May 24, 2011, 06:33:57 PM »
Dear Forum: I asked Gina if she would mind me posting her email and my reply
on the Forum--she consented. With my reply to Gina, I have now given you (our
Forum readers only, as it will be some time before I do a study and paper on this)
the key to understanding just Who God is.
We will also delve into the "What"
aspect of God. All of the Scriptures must agree or we are not understanding or
teaching properly. I have said for many years that "Jesus IS GOD" (see pp 22-23
of my article "God is NOT a Trinity." But if Jesus IS God and His Father IS God
don't we then have TWO GODS? There is ONLY ONE GOD! Yes, this does
appear to be an unsolvable enigma, but it is not unsolvable. I have said and taught
further through the years that not only is Jesus God, but He is the ONLY GOD that
we will every truly know in this life. And why do I say that? Well for one thing, that
IS what the Scriptures teach: "And this IS life eternal [eonian--'And this is the
Aionian Life..."--Emphatic Diaglott." ], that they might know Thee the only true God,
and Jesus Christ, Whom Thou has sent" (John 17:3). Yes, it will take "aions/eons"
to come to know God the Father. It won't happen in this life. So what is the purpose
of us receiving eonian life? To come to "...know Thee the only true God..."
I am receiving emails from some who are trying to "beat me to the punch" so to speak, in
revealing just Who and/or What is our God. I have neither the time nor the inclination
to go through all of these emails to critique all these speculations, but I am sure there
will be some who will attempt to to get their teaching on the Forum before I do. I encourage
study and research, however, let's not be guilty of doing it for the sake of vanity. And this
is not to say that some have some truthful insight into this subject, but there is so much
more to this teaching that just solving the riddle of how the Father and Son can both be God
if.....I say IF they are separate Beings with separate personalities.
"Hear O Israel, the LORD thy God is ONE LORD" (Deut. 6:4).
"I and My Father ARE ONE" (John 10:30).
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word [singular] WAS GOD" (John 1:1).
"I am the LORD, and there is non else, there is NO GOD BESIDE ME" (Isa. 45:5--"none
else" ver. 14; "none else" ver. 18; "none beside Me" ver. 21; "I am God, there is none else"
ver. 22; "I am God, there is none like Me," Isa. 46:9; "I am and there is none else beside
Me," Isa. 47:8).
"There is none other God, BUT ONE...But to us there is BUT ONE GOD" (I Cor. 8:4 & 6).
"And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, 'Hear, O Israel; The Lord
our God is ONE LORD" (Mark. 12:29).
As to how many "Gods" there are, there is no argument! There is but ONE GOD! I have
now given you part of the answer, but there is much to follow. We know what the Scripture
says, but how is it possible for two to be one God? There is an answer, but I would ask
that you reserve sending me either questions or outlines of your own personal studies until
after I have an opportunity to publish my research.
I am working on a write-up on what "herbs" I take, and just what many of these "herbs" are
that God mentions in the Scriptures.
God be with you all,
Ray
----- Forwarded Message -----
Subject: Re: I have a question
Ray,
It's about your post on the forum to Kat's question.
You said,
"If we take out all the descriptive phrases we have this: "...there is one God,
the Father...AND one Lord Jesus Christ..." ..... What would happen if we
were to replace the comma (,) after the word "Father" with a colon ( : )?
"But to us there is but one God: the Father...AND the Lord Jesus Christ...."
Why did you change the word "one" to the word "the"? Is the word "one"
also spurious?
Thanks for your time. No need to answer if you aren't feeling up to it.
Gina
Dear Gina: Boy you are pretty observant, Gina. Actually I did not intend to use the
article "the" at all, and I would shorten the statement even further to the lowest
number of words which would still retain Paul's premise. I just didn't want to try and
cover this teaching in an e-mail which will probably take a hundred pages. But let's
finish my thought, and I will then reserve further comment until I am ready to reveal
my findings. The King James reads:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom
are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by
whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8: 6).
Notice the lite face type added by the translators to make Paul's statement mor
readable. By taking out the added words we lose nothing:
"But to us one God, the Father, of whom all things, and we in Him,
and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom all things, and we by Him."
Paul's subject in this chapter is "idols." So He is teaching Who the real God is.
Who is the "one God" of Whom he speaks? He answers: "the FATHER," followed
by a description of the Father's role in the universe, but if we take out the description
of His role we loose nothing, as the thought is the same only shortened: "to us there is
one God, THE FATHER. But Paul doesn't end his statement with a period. There is
more to follow. He also speaks of "one Lord Jesus Christ" and a description of His
role in the universe. Okay, let's leave out ALL the descriptive words describing both
of Their roles, and we have this:
"...to us...ONE GOD: the Father...AND...Jesus."
I am not suggesting that this is the way to study all Scripture, by taking out
words, but I am trying to draw attention to the most important words.
Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?
God be with you,
Ray
---------------
Hope it helps some.
God bless,
Alex
Do we know for sure that the original Greek in verse 8 for saith the Lord is correct - as I know of an obscure version that states this as saith Jehovah:
Rev 1:
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.
8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Also, we know that Jesus is the spokesman for His Almighty Father and His God.
In the New testament, we know that Jesus came to reveal Our Almighty Father to us; so the most astonishing verse in The Scriptures to me is what Ray focused on:
I Corinthians 8:8:
"But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by Him" (I Cor. 8: 6).
We know that Jesus was with His Heavenly Father at the beginning - as His Word (or spokeman).
So to us to know Our Father, we must first know Jesus (His Son) - and as Ray eluded to - perhaps the best way to try to understand this enigma is by stating that 'There is One God - Our Heavenly Father together with His Beloved Son (Jesus Christ)'
But, as The Son could not exist without His Father (The One who was there before all else), and Jesus is not above or greater than His Father - Our Heavenly Father has to be The Supreme Sovereign of all there is (who has no other above Him) who birthed Jesus Christ (His Son); and then together they (plural) created the Heavens and the Earth.
Kind Regards.
'Out of My Depth' George
-
I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?
In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.
I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .
God bless.
Here are some Scripture, it better to get an understanding when you read all you can find on a subject. I noticed that Jesus did say a number times of the Father "I know Him," which I consider could mean He perceives/understands the Father, not necessarily a visual sighting of Him.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared (Strong's: unfold - declare, tell) Him.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
John 8:55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
John 7:28 Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, "You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
v. 29 But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me."
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 8:19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
in•vis•i•ble \-"vi-ze-bel\ adj 1 : incapable of being seen <~ to the naked eye> 2 : hidden 3 : imperceptible, inconspicuous. (Merriam-Webster)
1Tim 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Young's)
1John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
-
Rick -
What you state is confirmed in The Scriptures:
Hi George,
It is to my understanding there is one God which is the Father and that Jesus came forth from the Father . Jesus is our God and God the Father is Jesus God but God the Father has no God.
Hope that helps.
God bless.
But, The Scriptures in The New Testament declare that Jesus is The Way to Our Heavenly Father - and there is no other way but through His Beloved Son to The Throne of Our Almighty Creator.
Kind Regards.
Overawed George
-
Dave in Tenn -
Thank you for pointing out this enigma that is Our One True God:
Cheekie, if you believe that Jehovah of the Hebrew scriptures became Jesus of the New Testament scriptures, then the answer is more clear.
We've learned from experience that this "issue" is one that can't be hashed out on the forum. I'd just advise any reader to read, watch, or listen to the materials on B-T and challenge your own assumptions. Assumptions are so plentiful, that it's beyond impractical to deal with them all in forum posts.
You advice is accepted and noted.
We know that God is referred to in the singular and in the plural in the Old testament.
We know from The New Testament that The Father and The Son are One.
Kind regards.
Grateful George
-
largeli -
Thank you for your interesting Post:
Are you looking for scripture where Christ referred to Himself as 'Almighty God' specifically using the words 'Almighty God'?
Or are you asking for scripture where He referred to Himself as God and not only the son of God?
In John 8 He says "before Abraham was, I am".
Is this Christ calling Himself God? Is this what you're looking for?
We know that before the creation of the Heavens and the earth, Jesus (The Son) was with Our Heavenly Father; so Jesus was before Abraham and everyone and everything else, other than His Father - as He was Birthed and came out from His Father.
I was curious to ascertain if Jesus Himself (in The New Testament) actually referred to Himself, and / or called Himself 'Almighty God'.
I know there is a Scripture that states that when Jesus was to be born, one of His Titles was indeed 'Almighty God'.
Kind Regards.
Awestrucked George
-
Rick -
You raise a very poignant point:
Matthew 27:46 Jesus Cries out my God my God why have you forsaken me.
How would this fit in with Jesus being God Almighty if there is only one God ?
Interesting post George.
God bless.
We know that Jesus has a God (His Father who gave Birth to Him: and of whom He came out of); and we also know that Our Heavenly Father has no one higher than Himself - so Our Heavenly Father is the beginning of all things, and Our Father has no other (gods) beside Him.
In the New Testament, we are told that Jesus is One with The Father - and no one can come to The Father but through and via Jesus Christ (His Beloved Son and spokeman).
Kind Regards.
Humble (and feeling very minute in the presence of Our Almighty Father and Our Lord Jesus Christ) George
-
Dave in Tenn -
Thank you for your wise words and patience:
Let me say it again.
We've learned from experience that this "issue" is one that can't be hashed out on the forum. I'd just advise any reader to read, watch, or listen to the materials on B-T and challenge your own assumptions. Assumptions are so plentiful, that it's beyond impractical to deal with them all in forum posts.
I'd love to leave the thread open long enough to answer the OP's question to his satisfaction. But it won't stay open long enough to answer everybody's curiosity.
Kind Regards.
Grateful George
-
Hi George,
I'm think you missed something very important that ray pointed out. The ONE in paul's state isn't the Father. Its The Father and Jesus.
Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?
That is the ONE God. From how I understand what you said, "There is One God - Our Heavenly Father together with His Beloved Son (Jesus Christ)'," isn't quiet the same to me as it makes it appear as if we have two God's.
As for your question regarding Rev 1:7 of "Say's the Lord" do we know if that is accurate? I believe we do. Revelation, as written by John, was originally done so in greek to my knowledge. I don't recall John ever using the term 'Jehovah' in his writings but rather the greek word 'Kurios' which is in english is 'Lord.'
Furthermore, Jesus of the NT is Jehovah of the OT. That is exactly what ray proved in his "Solving the Enigma of God, Part 1" paper and in his many other writings.
So ether way, it would be a moot point even if the original God inspired version had john hearing 'Jehovah' say those things as opposed to 'The Lord says', which like I said, I don't believe is the case anyway.
I agree that the Son could not exist without His Father but also remember, that a father is no father without his son. Jesus did say at one point in the flesh that His Father was greater but we are also told that before He emptied Himself "In God’s own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)
Hopefully this helps some. Its Always an interesting discussion.
God bless,
Alex
-
Dave in Tenn -
Thanks for reminding us of this Post from Ray:
Matthew 27:46 Jesus Cries out my God my God why have you forsaken me.
How would this fit in with Jesus being God Almighty if there is only one God ?
Interesting post George.
God bless.
Here's an email exchange. You'll have to do some thinking on how it applies to your question.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2775.0.html
> How are you doing Ray? Blessed I believe.
>
> I really appreciate the research that you have submitted yourself to under
> GOD's hand. I'm striving for such myself, (no flattery intended). I don't
> yet consider myself learned, but I'm aware of the holy spirits work in my
> life. I have a question for you if you will?, I have been hearing for a
> long time that when Jesus died on the cross he was seperated from the
> father, i don't find that in the scriptures atleast not in the sense that
> they are suggesting. They (ministers) constantly say that GOD turned his
> back on Jesus on the cross, I disagree with that... Jesus said I and the
> father are one. Even as Paul said i am convinced that nothing shall seperate
> us from the Love of GOD. Even though Jesus did go to the place of Sheol,
> how is it possible for him to take the keys from the Devil without authority
> upon hi gh, for without the spirit of GOD who is Jesus? There is another
> issue bothering me how they say Jesus said "Father why hast though forsaken
> me...?" which ties into the first question...Jesus was constantly aware, all
> through the gospel you hear him saying "its not my time yet," "Its not my
> time". If Jesus knew the intentions of GOD doesn't it seem like doubt for
> him to ask why have you forsaken me, considering that he was completely
> aware what the Fathers will was, and what was going to happen? Or was that
> the whole purpose of him saying it, to get us to identify with the
> sepration? Cause to me that seems like something the devil would say not
> GOD.
> Directly after he said that statement, He screamed and there was and
> earthquake, like something in the spirit realm took place, and then he says
> like it was nothing "It is done..." I think theres something else behind
> tha t But i don't believe for a second GOD turned his back on His only
> Begotten son, am I am wrong on this?
>
> May GOD further you...
No, David, neither do I believe that God "turned HIs back on His only Son."
There are those who teach it, however. Jesus quoted the first few words found
is Psalm 22 which goes on to describe just Who the Messiah was to be and the
purpose for Him being crucified.
God be with you,
Ray
-----------------------------------
Psa 22:1 To the chief Musician. Upon Aijeleth-Shahar. A Psalm of David. My *God, my *God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou far from my salvation, from the words of my groaning?
Psa 22:2 My God, I cry by day, and thou answerest not; and by night, and there is no rest for me:
Psa 22:3 And thou art holy, thou that dwellest amid the praises of Israel.
Psa 22:4 Our fathers confided in thee: they confided, and thou didst deliver them.
Psa 22:5 They cried unto thee, and were delivered; they confided in thee, and were not confounded.
Psa 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and the despised of the people.
Psa 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying:
Psa 22:8 Commit it to Jehovah--let him rescue him; let him deliver him, because he delighteth in him!
Psa 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb; thou didst make me trust, upon my mother's breasts.
Psa 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb; thou art my *God from my mother's belly.
Psa 22:11 Be not far from me, for trouble is near; for there is none to help.
Psa 22:12 Many bulls have encompassed me; Bashan's strong ones have beset me round.
Psa 22:13 They gape upon me with their mouth, as a ravening and a roaring lion.
Psa 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is become like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.
Psa 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, and my tongue cleaveth to my palate; and thou hast laid me in the dust of death.
Psa 22:16 For dogs have encompassed me; an assembly of evil-doers have surrounded me: they pierced my hands and my feet.
Psa 22:17 I may count all my bones. They look, they stare upon me;
Psa 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Psa 22:19 But thou, Jehovah, be not far from me ; O my strength, haste thee to help me.
Psa 22:20 Deliver my soul from the sword; my only one from the power of the dog;
Psa 22:21 Save me from the lion's mouth. Yea, from the horns of the buffaloes hast thou answered me.
Psa 22:22 I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the congregation will I praise thee.
Psa 22:23 Ye that fear Jehovah, praise him; all ye the seed of Jacob, glorify him; and revere him, all ye the seed of Israel.
Psa 22:24 For he hath not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted; neither hath he hid his face from him: but when he cried unto him, he heard.
Psa 22:25 My praise is from thee, in the great congregation; I will pay my vows before them that fear him.
Psa 22:26 The meek shall eat and be satisfied; they shall praise Jehovah that seek him: your heart shall live for ever.
Psa 22:27 All the ends of the earth shall remember and turn unto Jehovah, and all the families of the nations shall worship before thee:
Psa 22:28 For the kingdom is Jehovah's, and he ruleth among the nations.
Psa 22:29 All the fat ones of the earth shall eat and worship; all they that go down to the dust shall bow before him, and he that cannot keep alive his own soul.
Psa 22:30 A seed shall serve him; it shall be accounted to the Lord for a generation.
Psa 22:31 They shall come, and shall declare his righteousness unto a people that shall be born, that he hath done it .
I agree that we should all meditate and study Psalm 22.
Perhaps, and I am not saying I know for sure - this explains The Good News (The Gospel) that Jesus taught, and thereafter His Apostles and disciples preached (in Acts and the Epistles of John, Peter, Jude, James and Paul).
Marvelous Psalm and it focuses our minds and hearts at the cruelty inflicted on Our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ - who paid Our Ultimate Price for each and all of us.
Amazing Grace.
Kind Regards.
Insignificant George.
-
Kat -
Thank you for your Post with these wonderful Scriptures regarding the enigma that is Our God and Saviour:
There are certain things that you will not find spoken alright in the Scripture, and that is because there must be room for the blind to be deceived. I mean if everything was spoken clearly how could there be deception? That why Christ spoke in parables. As Largeli mentioned what Christ said of Himself is "I AM," and that He used as the same name in speaking to Moses "I AM that I AM" (Exo 3:14). I believe that statement contacts Him as Almighty God, used for Him throughout the OT and in Revelation.
John 8:58 Jesus said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM."
I guess being His Son is not considered enough to be God? I think that's because we look on Father and Son as 2 separate beings. Christ states that He was "in Him" as part of the Father and as the Father was also "in Christ" and complete directed Him in every way.
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
Php 2:6 who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God,
That Scripture says that Christ was "equal" to God, as in His status of being part of the Father. Well still some may say these Scripture were not speaking about while Christ was a flesh and blood man... I certainly do not believe He lost His God status when He came in the flesh.
Mat 1:23 "Behold, the virgin shall conceive in her womb, and will bear a son. And they will call His name Emmanuel," which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Rom 9:4 who are Israelis. To them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the Law, the worship, and the promises.
v. 5 To the Israelis belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
This is one of my favourite Scriptures:
John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father in Me? The Words that I speak to you I do not speak of Myself, but the Father who dwells in Me, He does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the very works themselves.
We are told in The Scriptures that God is One; and from the beginning and before creation Jesus was One with His Father.
The Father's Voice is Jesus Christ.
Jesus had the Title 'Almighty God' because He is always 'In The Father' and the Father is always 'In His Son'.
Jesus was equal to God - as He and The Father are One.
Jesus is indeed 'God with us' as 'His and Our Father' is always with Him.
Jesus is 'God over all', as He has been given a 'name above all', and His Dominion is 'above all' - and Jesus will reign until 'all is in all', when Jesus will hand over His Kingdom to 'His and Our Heavenly Father'.
Kind Regards.
(Always learning more about Our Saviour and Our God) George
-
Rick -
Thank you for Posting this very apt Scripture:
This scripture seems to suggest that Christ is God almighty.
Isaiah 9:6-7 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
God bless.
It states that His Name shall be Called 'Almighty God' and 'The Everlasting Father' - and we know that The Father and His Son are One - and as Jesus said, 'if you have seen Me, you have seen The Father'.
Kind Regards.
George
-
Alex -
Thank you for Posting this:
There is also the Shema in Deut 6:4 which Christ re-iterates in the new testament with 'Jehovah' in the old becoming 'Kurios' in the new which is the Lord Jesus. So Jesus is indirectly revealing Himself as God.
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mark 12:30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.
John 20:28-29
28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord ['kurios'] and my God.
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
Also consider why Jesus came the first time, it was to serve and love. To show us the way in humility. He was very humble, which is something that sets him apart from all the false gods of this earth because they come seeking fame, power, service, but Jesus came to wash the feet of mortal men.
Jesus indeed came to serve rather than 'lord it over us', like our worldly leaders do today; and His Delight was always to 'do the Will of His Father'.
Jesus cannot be separated from His Father; as they are One.
Kind Regards.
George
-
Rick -
You raise a very interesting Point:
I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?
In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.
I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .
God bless.
The New Testament Scriptures state that 'Jesus has come from His Father, in order to reveal The Father to us' - and all we know about The Father is revealed by Jesus Christ (as the Gospels of His Work and Words record), together with His Revealed Word in Acts, and the rest of The New Testament - as Jesus is 'God's Word'.
We know that 'God is Spirit; and that we must Worship Him in Spirit and in Truth'.
We know that only The Son has ever seen The Father - and No One has ever heard His (The Father's) Voice.
Jesus is The Word (and Voice) of God (His Father).
Jesus is Our Mediator to Our Father; as Jesus is One (unified) with His Father.
Kind Regards.
George
-
Dennis -
Thank you for sharing these Scriptures; and the different versions help us to better understand the relationship between Jesus Christ and His Father:
I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?
In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.
I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .
God bless.
It very simple. No man has seen God the Father except His only begotten Son. In spirit or any other way. Don't add to the word of God.
(ASV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(CLV) God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him."
(Diaglott-NT) God no one has seen ever; the only-begotten son, that being in the bosom of the Father, he has made known.
(KJV) No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
(Rotherham) No one, hath seen, God, at any time: An Only Begotten God, The One existing within the bosom of the Father, He, hath interpreted him .
(YLT) God no one hath ever seen; the only begotten Son, who is on the bosom of the Father--he did declare.
Kind Regards.
George
-
Alex -
Thank you for clarifying these Points:
Hi George,
I'm think you missed something very important that ray pointed out. The ONE in paul's state isn't the Father. Its The Father and Jesus.
Jesus said: "I [Jesus] and My Father are one" (John 10:30). Who is the
"one" in Jesus's statement? The Father? NO--"the Father AND Jesus."
Wow. Isn't that also what Paul really says in I Cor. 8:6?
That is the ONE God. From how I understand what you said, "There is One God - Our Heavenly Father together with His Beloved Son (Jesus Christ)'," isn't quiet the same to me as it makes it appear as if we have two God's.
As for your question regarding Rev 1:7 of "Say's the Lord" do we know if that is accurate? I believe we do. Revelation, as written by John, was originally done so in greek to my knowledge. I don't recall John ever using the term 'Jehovah' in his writings but rather the greek word 'Kurios' which is in english is 'Lord.'
Furthermore, Jesus of the NT is Jehovah of the OT. That is exactly what ray proved in his "Solving the Enigma of God, Part 1" paper and in his many other writings.
So ether way, it would be a moot point even if the original God inspired version had john hearing 'Jehovah' say those things as opposed to 'The Lord says', which like I said, I don't believe is the case anyway.
I agree that the Son could not exist without His Father but also remember, that a father is no father without his son. Jesus did say at one point in the flesh that His Father was greater but we are also told that before He emptied Himself "In God’s own form existed he, and shared with God equality, deemed nothing needed grasping. But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross." (Phil 2:6-8)
Hopefully this helps some. Its Always an interesting discussion.
God bless,
Alex
I agree that together can be misunderstood, and was a poor word to use.
I agree that Kyrios or kurios (Ancient Greek: κύριος) is a Greek word which is usually translated as "lord" or "master".
I understand that Theos means 'God with us'.
Your point about a Father without a Son cannot be a Father, is very valid.
I agree that The Scriptures confirm that Jesus is equal with God, as His Father is always within Him.
You Post has most certainly helped.
Kind Regards.
George
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Kat -
Thank you for Posting these Scriptures; which helps clarify a lot:
I'm wondering now when Jesus said no one has seen God except the son did Jesus mean no one seen God in His spirit form ?
In Isaiah 9:6-7 it does say His name shall be called wonderful,counselor, the mighty God and the ever lasting Father.
I know that no scripture is of its own interpretation but this scripture is plain to understand .
God bless.
Here are some Scripture, it better to get an understanding when you read all you can find on a subject. I noticed that Jesus did say a number times of the Father "I know Him," which I consider could mean He perceives/understands the Father, not necessarily a visual sighting of Him.
John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the Only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared (Strong's: unfold - declare, tell) Him.
John 5:37 And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form.
John 8:55 Yet you have not known Him, but I know Him. And if I say, 'I do not know Him,' I shall be a liar like you; but I do know Him and keep His word.
John 7:28 Then Jesus cried out, as He taught in the temple, saying, "You both know Me, and you know where I am from; and I have not come of Myself, but He who sent Me is true, whom you do not know.
v. 29 But I know Him, for I am from Him, and He sent Me."
Matt 11:27 All things have been delivered to Me by My Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father. Nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and the one to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.
John 14:9 Jesus said to him, "Have I been with you so long, and yet you have not known Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; so how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
v. 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak on My own authority; but the Father who dwells in Me does the works.
v. 11 Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father in Me, or else believe Me for the sake of the works themselves.
John 8:19 Then they said to Him, "Where is Your Father?" Jesus answered, "You know neither Me nor My Father. If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also."
Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
in•vis•i•ble \-"vi-ze-bel\ adj 1 : incapable of being seen <~ to the naked eye> 2 : hidden 3 : imperceptible, inconspicuous. (Merriam-Webster)
1Tim 1:17 and to the King of the ages, the incorruptible, invisible, only wise God, is honour and glory--to the ages of the ages! Amen. (Young's)
1John 4:12 No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us.
mercy, peace and love
Kat
Kind Regards.
George
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It is easy to prove Jesus said He is God. Jesus is the Word of God. The Scriptures is the Word of God in written form.
Proof. The Two Witnesses.
...and the Word was God. John1:1
And the Word was made fllesh... John 1:14
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John from Kentucky -
Thank you for sharing these two (2) Scriptural Witnesses regarding His Written Word and His Word that became Flesh:
It is easy to prove Jesus said He is God. Jesus is the Word of God. The Scriptures is the Word of God in written form.
Proof. The Two Witnesses.
...and the Word was God. John1:1
And the Word was made fllesh... John 1:14
I understand that most of us on this Forum accept what Ray taught - in that 'Almighty God' is 'the Father and His Son'.
Alex has stated that to Be a Father you must first have a Son. So was The Father only a Father when He Birthed (or Fathered) His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ?
What was Our Heavenly Father prior to Him becoming a Father, as all Life proceeds out of Our Heavenly Father?
Was He always The Father, as He Fathered or Birthed All Things into existence - and He gave Life to All the living, including His Only Begotten Son?
The Father is the origin or beginning of All Things, which He Birthed into existence by The Power of His Word.
The Father has Life within Himself; and He gave to His Son to Have Life within Himself:
John 5:26: KJV:
For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
Our Heavenly Father is The Original Cause of All Life and All things.
His Word warns us about the many false gods that we are not to worship or obey; and He confirms in His Word that there is only the One True (Almighty) God, as there are none beside Him.
Kind Regards.
George
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Just a thought, the scriptures say there is only one God but it seem to me that the Father is God and Jesus is God and in my simple mind that equals two Gods not one.
Maybe the meaning of one God is that the Father and Jesus are of one in accord
Jesus said I and my Father are one, could Jesus be meaning that Their thoughts are one ?
Scripture say also when a man and women get married the ( two ) become ( one ) flesh ( ok , not a direct quote but same meaning )
That might give insight to ( two ) Gods being ( one ) God. Maybe it's that simple that even a child could understand.
God bless.
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We've been through this before and it's going to stop here.