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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: ez2u on July 27, 2007, 04:04:09 AM
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and why do we suffer. Why did Jesus have to suffer for the glory set before Him. I don't like to suffer and I have done alot of it. Does suffering bring about character? Or does it scar and deform our personality for life. I have know adults so brualizes in childhood their minds are weird. Maybe mentally ill. Mentally ill people suffer terribly no one cares about them hardly. The lepars of the 21st. century. If God is love then why do we have to suffer. Why did He suffer. What is suffering with out the carnal mind? Peggy
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and why do we suffer. Why did Jesus have to suffer for the glory set before Him. I don't like to suffer and I have done alot of it. Does suffering bring about character? Or does it scar and deform our personality for life. I have know adults so brualizes in childhood their minds are weird. Maybe mentally ill. Mentally ill people suffer terribly no one cares about them hardly. The lepars of the 21st. century. If God is love then why do we have to suffer. Why did He suffer. What is suffering with out the carnal mind? Peggy
It's not so much about 'suffering' itself but rathering the experience of it.
Hebrews 12:11 "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby."
Since the carnal mind is deep seated hatred against God, we need God's grace us to teach us because we on our own will not and do not want to even know God.
Titus 2:11-12 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, [is] Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;
It's the way we were created;
"For the creature [and/or creation itself] was MADE subject to VANITY NOT WILLINGLY, but by reason of Him [that’s God] Who HATH SUBJECTED the same in hope. Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the BONDAGE OF CORRUPTION into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the WHOLE CREATION groans and travails IN PAIN until NOW" (Rom. 8:20-22)!
And we are told that Light shines OUT of darkness.
2 Corinthians 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.
I mean this is how i see it, i could be wrong offcourse as always. So to answer as to why we 'suffer' because as ecc. reads 'an EXPERIENCE of evil has God given unto the sons of men to humble them thereby it.'
None of us like to suffer, but compared the goal and the promise we have in Christ, this suffering is but dung! As our good friend paul would say ;)
Suffering doesn't bring about 'character' i believe that is only something God can do, but He brings us to a point where we HATE the very sin we live in, so much that He gives us the power finaly through this hatred for it, to overcome it. The suffering and pain allows us to see the beasts we truly are, rather then bieng blind to it. Offcourse again that is dependant upon God and not 'suffering.' You can suffer all your life and never see the light, but then again you could suffer just alittle and God can snap you out of your deep sleep with His glorious light shinning right in your face.
So in short, i don't believe 'suffering' brings about character, but rather God's power working in us through Christ to change us into His Sons image.
Love in Christ,
Alex
P.S. I could be wrong, feel free to correct me =]
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We suffer when we're chastised, but sometimes I suffer when I'm faced with others that are being controlled by "their" carnal mind. What fellowship does light have with darkness? When I am hated by all of mankind (the beast), will I not suffer? The way I see it we're all in this (God's plan) together. Everyone will suffer because everyone has fallen short of the perfection of God. In as much, sin against God and each other causes anyone around or involved to suffer, does it not?
your friend,
-Beau
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Hi ez2u,
This is such a hard thing to understand. It is so sad to watch someone suffer. But why would God be putting us through all this, if not for the ultimate good. I think it's like we can't see the forrest for the trees, as we are in this process or experience. I hang on to this scripture.
1Cor 2:9 But as it is written:
"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him."
This scripture will include all of humanity, eventually.
Here are a couple of emails on this.
http://bible-truths.com/email6.htm#suffer --------------------------
Why is there suffering and evil? Because God says so? Surely you must have struggled intellectually with this one. I don't expect you to know the details of God's plan and how evil works to fulfill it or even why God chose his methodology but... do YOU ever wonder or are you fulfilled enough by the scriptures to let it be.
Jake
[Ray Replies]
Dear Jake:
It is true that there are many mysteries that we do not understand. And yet, there is much that we do understand, at least in part.
God is GOOD. What IS good? How does anyone BECOME GOOD?
Take a very close look at ANY VIRTUE, Jake, and see HOW IT BECAME A VIRTUE! Is "truthfulness" a virtue if everyone always was and always will be "truthful?" No, because there is NOTHING TO COMPARE IT WITH! Is "patience" a virtue that one can buy at a department store? Can "patience" be developed and achieved QUICKLY AND WITHOUT DISTRESS? I think not.
There is nothing, and I mean absolutely NOTHING that we can come to understand as part of our knowledge, that is not understood by how that bit of knowledge CONTRASTS with OTHER pieces of knowledge. Everything that exists is only understood by contrasts. How does one know what "big" is if he doesn't know what "small" is, and vice-a-versa? How can we say something is rough if we don't have any concept of smooth? Up is only up in relation or contrast to down. Light is contrasted with darkness, etc., etc., etc.
Do you see where this is going? If we are to appreciate "good," it is essential that we have an experience of "EVIL." If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!
And so, God in His infinite wisdom, has provided all of these things--we call it CREATION--so that mankind might experience all that is necessary to humble, educate, experience, and appreciate, the wonderful things that God has prepared for us.
All the ugly, evil, and misery of life can be likened to the scaffolding of a building. While creation of the new building is in progress, the scaffolding is an eye-sore, and serves NO PRACTICAL PURPOSE except the actual creation of the building. But, when the beautiful building is completed, we tear down the ugly scaffolding and throw it away--it serves no more useful purpose to our completed building, EVER. And so we read that even DEATH, the LAST ENEMY, will be ABOLISHED (I Cor. 15:26)!!
I hope this helps your understanding a little better.
Sincerely,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1607.0.html ----------
Hello Ray,
>
> I'm an avid reader, and have thanked you before via email - your papers have
> been a HUGE blessing to me!
>
> I've a question, that I'm hoping you've thought about and have an easy
> answer for. It *seems* like you're suggesting that the Lake of Fire is a
> purification process for the unbeliever. It seemed like a great
> explanation - but one thing continually nagging at me is:
>
> It seems to me that no sufferings (perhaps "suffering" is where I go
> astray?) of the sinner can purge his own carnality/sin. That is accomplished
> solely by the sacrifice of Christ. And also, the sinner has been judged at
> the great white throne, so why continue the infliction for the whole of that
> tremendous eon?
>
> If you've not an easy answer, can you at least provide a thought that will
> set me on the right track to find the err of my thinking?
>
> Thanks Brother Ray... blessings to you as you continue writing for us!
>
> Glen Klein
Dear Glen:
Certainly not. If the sacrifice of Jesus cleanses our carnal minds completely, what was the purpose of the apostles suffering most AFTER the crucifixion and resurrection. And not all tribulation and suffering is to purge sin, but to build character, patience, love, etc. Jesus did not sin. Jesus did not have a carnal mind. Jet Jesus SUFFERED and learned what it was to be obedient BY the things that He suffered. Etc. The Lake of Fire is part of the Great White Throne Judgment. Some enter the city before others. Some have few lashes and others have many lashes, etc.
God be with you,
Ray
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Hi Peggy,
As I grow spiritually, I am becoming more and more fascinated by the reality of what we must go through to ultimately be made into the image of God. All of life's experiences, both the good and the evil, are part of that process. I am no where close to understanding the depth of how or why God does things, however, I believe that His ways are perfect in accomplishing His will and purpose. God knows exactly what it takes to make us into perfect spiritual sons and daughters. Suffering is apparently part of that process. However, there is good news! The suffering is only temporary. There will be an end to all the pain!
This scripture came to mind when I read your post:
Isaiah 55:8-9 - "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts."
Peace and His mercy to you,
Rene'
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These are great posts.
I am encouraged in seeing that God is humbling us through suffering and trials. This is a truth that does cut down on the anxiety and stress that comes from different circumstances in our lives. With just the little head knowledge and understanding God has given me in the last few years, I have been able to get a lift at times when before I would have been a complete babbling idiot.
I love knowing that I know some sacred secrets of God and that there are still more secrets to uncover. So I go on in faith believing the revelation I get from God's Word and not believing what I see. I trust in the fact that Abraham had no idea where he was going when he left civilization and a comfortable life to look for a city not made with hands. I find it comforting to realize that Joseph had to suffer knowing that his brothers sold him into slavery. The bible talks about his screams from the pit and then to live with that knowledge for many years in prison not knowing what was in store. Moses who was learned in all the wisdom of Egypt and a very rich royal position, ran for his life into the wilderness not knowing that it was through trials and years that he would come to have a close relationship with God. David who got on the rollercoaster life that God causes and had to flee for his life from Saul and spent years in hiding and running from the powerful king. Paul who left an extremely high position in the world to go into the wilderness for years and then to be beaten, shipwreaked, and left for dead during many trials. And of course Jesus who suffered through it all for all.
We should find peace in the fact that Jesus said that we must drink from the cup that he has drunk. That He is that narrow path and strait gate that leads to salvation. He is the truth and the way. He is the Word that we are to eat and drink until we have the mind of Christ. Until we are spiritually transformed into Him.
The perfect plan of God. So perfect few will be faithful til the end because it is a hard teaching, but like Peter said when Jesus asked the twelve if they were going to leave him too like the multitude of other disciples that had been chosen by Jesus. `Sir, unto whom shall we go? thou hast sayings of life age-during; and we have believed, and we have known, that thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.'
So just always no matter what the situation, always stay just a little bit longer.
CIY
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If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!
I don't quite understand this statement, can anyone elaborate please, thanks in advance.
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We have to die to our sins and the carnal desires of the flesh.
Rom 6:10 For in that He died, He died to sin once; but in that He lives, He lives to God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise count yourselves also to be truly dead to sin, but alive to God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
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Don't know if this helps but if you have had a time when your life was on the line, it can make you cherish life more. You know, if you have faced an illness that could be life threatening,accident, etc. It made me think more about how much I do love life and what is really important.
Nole
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Thank you Carol for a wonderful post.
Those are powerful scriptures.
Iris
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If we are to appreciate (I mean REALLY appreciate) LIFE, then it is essential that we ALL DIE!!!
I don't quite understand this statement, can anyone elaborate please, thanks in advance.
We all begin with the carnal flesh, living our 'life' to satisfy our lust. To really appreciate this life, we need to die to the carnal-fleshly 'life' of this world.
John 12:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it abides alone; but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.
v. 25 He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal(aions).
When the Holy Spirit is indwelling, the ways of this world are no longer a desire, and we die to the flesh, so to speak, this is a process.
Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to Him.
v. 10 But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit that makes alive, the flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit and are life.
Rom 5:21 so that as sin has reigned to death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal(aions) life by Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hope this helps :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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I understand that we need to die to the fleshly life and our sins, I just don't understand why then we will really appreciate this life.
v. 25 He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal(aions).
We are supposed to "hate our life in this world", not appreciate it.
Now I am thinking maybe Ray is referring to the spiritual life, we need to die to the fleshly life, then we will appreciate the spiritual life.
Thanks everyone for your help. ;)
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I understand that we need to die to the fleshly life and our sins, I just don't understand why then we will really appreciate this life.
v. 25 He who loves his life shall lose it. And he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal(aions).
We are supposed to "hate our life in this world", not appreciate it.
Now I am thinking maybe Ray is referring to the spiritual life, we need to die to the fleshly life, then we will appreciate the spiritual life.
Thanks everyone for your help. ;)
You are right, its about appreciating the life in Christ that will only truly come once we experience the death of this one.
Atleast i think thats it =]
God bless,
Alex
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Hi zvezda,
As you said, We are supposed to "hate our life in this world", not appreciate it. Yes that is true, but the key phrase is 'in this world.' The elect are the only ones that can truely appreciate this statement. The world does not comprehend that this life, this body of flesh , is the beast! Those in the world cling to this fleshly life, they fear death, and rightly so, but for the wrong reasons.
When you receive the Holy Spirit indwelling, this world loses it appeal, and the desires of the flesh fade away. That is what is meant in Rom 8:9; "You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you."
Luke 16:13 No servant can serve two masters. For either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will hold to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
The elect do hate their life in this corrupt world, it is just a means to get to the real life in Jesus Christ.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, I am the Resurrection and the Life! He who believes in Me, though he die, yet he shall live. (This is real life)
v. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. ( all mankind will be saved and receive immortality)
2Cor 4:11 For we who live are always being delivered to death for Jesus' sake, so that the life of Jesus might also be revealed in our body.
1John 5:20 And we know that the Son of God has come, and He has given us an understanding so that we may know Him who is true. And we are in Him that is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and the everlasting (eonian) life.
Just thought I would add little more to this :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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To quote Ray's teachings from :http://bible-truths.com/fools.htm
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abides alone, but if it dies, it brings forth much fruit.
He that loves his life shall lose it; and he that HATES his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal" (John 12:24-25).
Do we "hate" our lives in this world? Are we "dying" to all the illegal pulls of the flesh? The last thing on earth Christians want to do is DIE. Yet, unless we do die (as a seed put in the earth), we will not be living in the Kingdom of God.
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Great scripture kat, ty and arcturus also =]
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Hi Beloved,
That was really well put :)
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Beloved,
Thanks for that beautiful post.
It is such an encouragement.
I will be thinking about that package.
Thank you so much for sharing this!
Peace and Love
Iris
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I really needed that post!
Thanks so much Beloved.
Peace and blessings.
Randy
;D 8) ;D
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hi all, this is really an interesting topic and I would like to add yet another perspective if I may.
I think the words "suffer" and "suffering" are often used outside their direct meaning. The phrase "I suffered great pain" proves this as does: "He sufferend great hardship". The word means "experience" and it is only man's willingness to link suffering to negativity and pain that the cause the true sense of the word to be lost.
Rom 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
Is not Paul saying "For I reckon that the negative experiences of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us."
And does he not also say: "worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us."
We feel pain, wounded hearts, distress, anguish and some more than others. Some suffering is physical and some emotional, we are human and we can feel pain and hurt just as we can love and feel love in return. Many have watched a loved one slowly fade away, or be taken suddenly with out warning. We all "experinence" or suffer this present time, sinner and bible-truther alike.
One thing that I believe one should never do is make a martyr out of suffering. How could one? for it is not the suffering that is important, but what the suffering teaches or reminds us of. Paul had his "Splinter" or "Thorn" not that it would drag him down and hold him fast, but so that he could be strong. He knew well that all came to nothing so long one is focused on God always and completely and cannot be compared with the glory that is to come, nor to the love already given.
There was a gruesome murder involving a girlfrien and gasoline in a nearby town. The guy wasn't responsible and the girl surely suffered. I cannot hope to rationalize this is my mind at all, other to say I have never really suffered at all, if such is the baseline.
Just my thoughts, coments welcome :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Just a few words to say I have reded and reread these replies and want to thank the many people who answered my questions. Now is the time to think about what has been said here. There is one part that was not address that is the mind that many times looses its self from the constant suffering for many years. I remember wurmbrandt talked about his solitary confinment for 3 years give or take. not hearing a single woice. He lost all couldn;t even remember a scripture verse from the Bible. The one thing he said remain was Christ and wurmbrandt rejoice and danced in that. That Jesus was with him. My life is changing since I have been on this forum the things I have been suffering and hitting my head against a brick wall for in rebellion, my mind is being to thin this is Gods will to do a good work in you. That makes life more tolerable. I had a dream in 1984 it was dark out and I was in a warm lighted building many people were out side and I had to go outside they were going to stab me but I had to go, So when I sent outside they took their knives and started digging hunks of flesh out of my body and I was walking on and stated how long will I have to suffer. This has come about throught my life but I have been strengthen from this site thank you peggy
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The love they will have for this little one, will show the glory of God, and will BE for the glory of God.
Ursula
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Hi Darren
I am not quite sure what you are asking regarding experieince. Perhaps you already know this but ....pain occurs when the sensory portion of your body responds to a physical or emotional insult: pain is objective. Sufferering is how you percieve and experience the pain : suffering is subjective.
They do not correlate on a 1:1 basis (a slow but constant drop of water on your forehead can become torture. Therefor even constant saddness, anger etc can lead to suffering.
Hi Beloved I believe we are both saying the same thing: You write: "Sufferering is how you percieve and experience the pain : suffering is subjective."
I agree that suffering is subjective as is the experience itself. For example, I was in a horrible motorcycle accident, resulting head injuries including double vision, inability to link events to time/date, and substantial hearing loss. I also broke a few bones. The pain must have been enormous, yet I remember none of it, I do not even remember the accident. Some might say that I am suffering from double vision, but am not. I have double vision and I thank God that I am still alive to see at all.
Another way to look at it is two friends are accosted by a loud mouth, whom verbally abuses both. One totally ignores it, while the other crawls deeper into their shell. Same event, but two different "experiences;" I hope you can see where I am going with this. :) It is how one reacts or feels that dictates the level of suffering.
Everything we encounter impacts us somehow. I kind of see these as a wave effect when they occur..for example you mentioned the story about the girlfriend being burned by her boyfriend.
Yes she was horribly hurt, but he will have to replay that event over and over in his mind ....for the rest of his life. If guilty he will have to answer legally.
His family and especially her family and friends have been emotionally traumatized. Those police and legal personnel who will be involved with this case , the medical personnel who cared for her and even those at the mortuary ...All were forced to live through the horror too.
Those who reported the story and all those those who have heard the story (including us on the forum.... both now and in the future)etc etc .....we all will have to resolve this worldly event.
I agree with you totally. God allowed that to happen for a very definate reason, but I am not sure that many should suffer is the reason. This was the point I was trying to make.
On the plus side ...the issue of good and evil will have to come up and each person involved will have to deal with the reality of God. Some will turn to Him now for the answer (Glory to Him now).. some will not.... but....when all is revealed then all these things will make sense...(all the Glory to Him)
Rom 8:18
For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
I agree our existence will seem like a nanosecond, everything physical will be deminished. When Moses asked to see God's Glory... All that he could expereinced was a manifestation of His Absolute Holiness.
It is mind boggling to even try and imagine spiritual exisitence... it will be unlike anything we can imagine.
We can only Praise God for His Son Jesus Chirst
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the Glory of God
Beloved
Now this puts everything into perspective. What is suffering when ones heart, soul and mind is focused on the hope of the Glory of God?
Paul himself knew well. :)
2Cr 12:9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me.
Was Paul suffering or boasting? Was he saddened, demoralized and depressed? Not according to his next words.
2Cr 12:10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Are we not to feel the same way. Suffering should not be painful but joyous and this I feel is a very hard lesson for many to grasp.
Just my thoughts and many thanks for your response. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Thank you Beloved you have been very sightful. This is something i thought about when I was depressed one time " the sky was raining diamonds and you thought it was a storm". It goes with what has been said here about how you think about a situation. I do feel this thing deep inside me an empting of myself and the things of this world to serve. Not to be in poverty but materail items can weigh us down if we work with the poor. It is hard for them, painful to see someone who is there to help them have so much and they want and need almost like an acking deep inside. If God wants to bless my life with this honor He will make the way as for now I have been attending to my family and those the Lord brings into my life. That has been alot with 6 children and a business we ran for 25 years. That has change now. God Bless peggy
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Was Paul suffering or boasting? Was he saddened, demoralized and depressed? Not according to his next words.
2Cr 12:10 That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong.
Are we not to feel the same way. Suffering should not be painful but joyous and this I feel is a very hard lesson for many to grasp.
Once God reveals his truth I don't think it's the lesson that's hard to grasp, I think it's the reality of the suffering that's hard to endure. The purging and burning away of our sins is not an easy process and I don't think we're supposed to think it is. Even Jesus had a hard time dealing with what he knew he must endure. When you're in the middle of the fire, it's hard to focus on the glory of the next age. Suffering IS painful and I don't think there's any scripture that says it's not supposed to be. Otherwise, we would not learn to be obedient.
Heb 5:7 For Jesus, in the days of His flesh, when He had offered up prayers and supplications with strong cryings and tears to Him who was able to save Him from death, and was heard in that He feared,
Heb 5:8 though being a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things which He suffered.
We are told that our discipline is not an easy process. We are instructed to accept our discipline, to be patient and to endure. Paul may have been delighted during his suffering and while perhaps we should be, I don't think we have to be!
Heb 12:1 Therefore since we also are surrounded with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight and the sin which so easily besets us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,
Heb 12:2 looking to Jesus the Author and Finisher of our faith, who for the joy that was set before Him endured the cross, despising the shame, and sat down at the right of the throne of God.
Heb 12:3 For consider Him who endured such contradiction of sinners against Himself, lest you be weary and faint in your minds.
Heb 12:4 You have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons, "My son, despise not the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when you are rebuked by Him;
Heb 12:6 for whom the Lord loves He chastens, and He scourges every son whom He receives."
Heb 12:7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons, for what son is he whom the father does not chasten?
Heb 12:8 But if you are without chastisement, of which all are partakers, then you are ******** and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh who corrected us, and we gave them reverence. Shall we not much rather be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For truly they chastened us for a few days according to their own pleasure, but He for our profit, that we might be partakers of His holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.
Love and peace,
Carol
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Thanks for your response Carol, :)
Heb 12:11 Now chastening for the present does not seem to be joyous, but grievous. Nevertheless afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who are exercised by it.
This Scripture you quoted fits perfectly with the point I was endeavoring to make. :)
We are human, and as such, feel many emotions; some helpful and some hateful; yet as followers of Christ, we should care less of our own inflictions / sufferings and focus on the righteousness of the One who is exercising it.
Christ himself never for a second lost site of this, even in his darkest hour.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou [wilt].
I have to believe that the only way Christ the man endured such pain and humiliation was because of his unwavering trust in his Father. Surely looking back he would count the suffering as nothing.
In short, should we not concentrate more on the promise of what is to come than on the "grievousness" of ones physical chastening; for all is for the benefit of our spiritual growth and should always be seen as such instead of some vendeta against us personally.
Does this make sense?
Love in Christ, Darren
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darren and carol there is a balance to everything I found that we start off running and progress to a waiting upon the Lord a total giving up all to Him.I notice the really firt big change was when my first husband left me, I was bruised, blind from an accident,I got my vision back, and broke with 3 children. I knew I had to raise my voice in a sacrifical praise To God. I thanked Him for what He was going to do and had done in my life. When my oldrest son fell 70 feet off a cliff and was in a coma 31/2 years in my home. the songs and laugher left my heart everyone deserted me except one friend and my littlest daughter, My seond husband beat me neglected me, had me falsely arrested, he was in good with the local police, business pals. while I was preganant with his third child. As I prayed the Lord said to me go and ask how you can be a better wife to him. I did things got worst than evenually the marriage got better after he almost die amd lost his business. The Lord came to me when my first son Jon was in the coma and said peggy I want you to give him back to me No Lord this can not be you I said. For 6 months I struggle then I said yes Lord and let my son go.I was at a stand still next was grieving, Grieving isn;t a step you skip over it is real. of God and necessary. To be able to breath again. You come out a change person and God does that changing .some don't come out and die. My second son began to show signs of mentally illness about a year after the first one die. It became full blown schizo-effective. No one understood this for 4 years but me I struggle with his father,sister, my husband and police to get him the help he needed. I knewJosh was ill, because when I was born my father became mentally ill. That life was a nightmare. my childhood. Josh as a child had a gifted mind brillant I gave so much to each of these children to see them destroyed broke me and I began to wait on the Lord wait because I had to just to beable to help what was left of my son Joshua. It wasn't about smiles and joy it was about obedience. I learn to trust in relied on and obey Jesus the Christ. Now I have in me the assurance that He Is. After that I had breast cancer which was cured through the herbs of the field and common sense about our body and what we put into them to feed them. The Lord had given to me what I needed before I found the lump. It took me about 10 months to dissolve the lump and I have been cancer free 7 years. More suffering came later but other stories. my point is made. peggy
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My gosh Peggy, what a testimony!
But you summed up my point perfectly:
It wasn't about smiles and joy it was about obedience.
Darren, we agree that no one should view suffering as a vendetta against us or anything like that. When I look back on the trials God has led me through, I can see all He's done and I am grateful that He is performing such a great work in my life. But as I have not yet been perfectly transformed into the Lord's image, I still have a hard time focusing on the promises to come in the midst of a trial. But I do know this is all for our spiritual growth and I do try my best to hold on to that instead of focusing on any suffering at hand. I don't always succeed, but I do try. :)
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Peggy, you humble me with what you have been through. I have to agree with both of you Peggy and Carol. Smiles and laughter leave when one is in the midst of a trial, and it IS about obedience. Sometimes all you can do is try to get through the day.
When I read through the scriptures, there is a lot of encouragement, but the fact is suffering is unpleasant. It's supposed to be that way in order to develop the maturity that God wants to develop in us.
Love,
Ursula
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This has been an incredibly edifying topic and thread with much wisdom, compassion and honest straight from the heart posts.
It is not easy to endure these things, I think we all can agree on this but we also must ask ourselves it is better to experience this chastisement now or in the next age?
Looking at other people's lives (where the grass sometimes really is greener) the question may arise "why do they have it so good?" Perhaps in this snapshot in time they do but what about later, even in this life? A car wreck, a fire, a storm or a hidden medical condition can turn everything upside down real quick, what then? Do we exult in their pain or do we provide words of comfort and compassion that only real life experience can provide. I know from personal experience that hearing this "I know how you feel" statement carries much more weight when you really do know how someone feels by having experienced the same type of adversity.
Could it be that some of us are being prepared to have the ability to provide this empathy to those who will truly have a chastisement in the next age, or to be a light to His glory even in this life? Are these trials and tribulations performing a dual action, purifying the spirit of the recipient as it prepares them for a much higher calling than can be really appreciated at this time?
Here is a portion of Lake of Fire Part III that speaks of the trials and tribulations that must be dealt with if we are to grow spiritually;
Was it just Paul that God singled out to endure such hardships and trials? No, we too must partake of the same:
"Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that WE [Christians, followers of Christ] MUST through MUCH TRIBULATION [Greek: thlipsis--affliction, troubles, burdens, persecution, anguish] enter into the kingdom of God" (Acts 14:22).
Does your pastor teach that you must go through such things if you are to be a follower of Jesus Christ and rule with Him in the Kingdom of God? Or does he teach that if you are going through just such things that you probably need to get your life in order and repent because you obviously have many, many sins in your life that are bringing on all these troubles and therefore, you are not being blessed of the Lord? Their prosperity gospel of worldliness and gross materialism is a travesty of the gospel of Jesus Christ! I hear this prosperity gospel of worldliness and materialism every time I turn the TV on. But what do the Scriptures say:
Before I continue this train of thought, let me interject that although we are to go through extreme hardship, persecution, and tribulations, God nonetheless, strengthens us so that we can endure these things. It is not God’s purpose to discourage us. We have this promise from God:
"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, Who will not suffer you to be tempted above that you are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape [Gk: ‘sequel’] that you may be able to bear it" (I Cor. 10:13).
I'll let you check all the many Scriptures of comfort that God gives us even while we are undergoing all our trials and sufferings. Here’s one more good one, however:
"Blessed [Gk: HAPPY] is the man that endures temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the CROWN OF LIFE, which the Lord has promised to them that love Him" (James 1:12).
It is most important that we consider, however, some of the many Scriptures that relate to our suffering, afflictions, and persecutions. This is necessary if we are to ever acquire a deep spiritual understanding of God’s judgment on the world in the lake of fire and second death. As we go through these many Scriptures, be aware of the fact that we are not going through all these things as punishment. God is not punishing us, He is chastening us, and there is a BIG difference.
"And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we SUFFER with Him, that we may be also glorified together" (Rom. 8:17).
"That no man should be moved by these AFFLICTIONS: for yourselves know that we are APPOINTED thereunto" (I Thes. 3:3).
Paul suffered much to get the gospel to the Thessalonians, "... Suffering ... being outraged ... a vast struggle ... [why?] ... We have been TESTED by God to be entrusted with the gospel ... God, Who is TESTING our hearts" (I Thes. 2:1-4, Concordant Literal New Testament).
Then he tells them that they too are "appointed" to such like sufferings and afflictions. Paul praises the faith and endurance of the Thessalonians because of: "... all your PERSECUTIONS and the AFFLICTIONS with which you are bearing ... which you are SUFFERING ... you who are being AFFLICTED ..." (I Thes. 1:5-7).
Now then, was this because the Thessalonians lived in a bad part of town, or bad part of the world, or that they lived at a bad time in history? Or does God bring these things upon all who would follow Christ in all ages?
"Yea, and ALL [in every era] that will live godly in Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" (II Tim. 3:12).
But aren’t all these persecutions and afflictions at the hands of evil men rather than God? For sure wicked men commit many wicked deeds against the true followers of Jesus Christ, but Who is ultimately responsible for ALL things, including the tribulations and persecutions on believers? It is, of course, GOD
"Who works ALL things after the counsel of His Own WILL" (Eph. 1:11).
"So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in ALL YOUR PERSECUTIONS AND TRIBULATIONS that ye endure; Which is a manifest token [display] of [of WHAT?] ... OF the RIGHTEOUS JUDGMENT [Gk: ‘just judging’] OF GOD!"
And for what grand purpose?
"... that ye may be counted WORTHY OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD, for which ye also SUFFER" (2 Thes. 1:4-5).
Just how much are we expected to give up and suffer for Christ in order to be worthy?
"And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than Me is NOT WORTHY of Me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than Me is NOT WORTHY of Me. And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after Me, IS NOT WORTHY OF ME" (Matt. 10:26-28).
What does God consider a "reasonable" sacrifice to become members of the Family and Kingdom of God?
"I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your BODIES A LIVING SACRIFICE, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service" (Rom. 12:1).
Make no mistake about it; if you will follow Jesus Christ, you will experience many of the hardships spoken of in these Scriptures. I am not saying that it is necessary to teach youngsters in Sunday School these deeper truths of God, but if we adults are to ever go on to maturity in Christ, it’s time to get our heads out of the sand!
The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
"For if we would JUDGE [Gk: diakrino=THROUGH JUDGE, separate thoroughly, to withdraw, discern, judge] OURSELVES [members of the called-out House of God], we should not be judged [Gk: krino=judge, set right, decide, to try, condemn, punish]. But when we are judged [the same Greek word krino as used above with reference to judging the wicked world] we are CHASTENED of the Lord, that we should not be condemned [Gk: katakrino, an adverse sentence] with the world" (I Cor. 11:32).
Pay close attention to the three Greek words, diakrino, krino, and katakrino, used in this verse.
There is so much contained in this verse. There is a judgment now on God’s saints. We are judged by being "chastened of the Lord." What does that mean? "Chastened" is from the Greek word paideuo and here is what it means: "to train up a child, i.e. educate, or (by impl.) discipline (by punishment): -- chasten (-ise), instruct, learn, teach" (Strong’s Greek Dictionary p. 54).
Are you following this amazing use of words? You will now learn a marvelous truth of Scripture that is not being taught in any theological seminary that I am aware of anywhere in the whole world.
We are "judged" by God, and the vehicle that God uses to do this judging is "chastening." In other words, we are "judged" by God by being "trained up" like a child, by being "educated," by "discipline" involving "punishment," "instructed," by which we "learn," and all these "teach" us WHAT WE SHOULD BE.
There is no doubt that some of this chastening can be harsh, sorrowful, and painful. Much of it is not very pleasant and God admits as much to us. And it is not possible for one single son of God to avoid this chastisement! Let’s read it: http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Thanks for a wonderful response Joe,
I would like to add something that may have a scriptual wittness, although one escapes me just now. As has been pointed out in this thread, suffering is subjective and one of the most insideous of all ailments is depression, because it can be hid so well. Who would ever suspect the bell of the ball or the one that is always the center of attention is dying inside from loneliness. There are of course innumerable other conditions associated with depression, but I will speak of loneliness a little longer, because I have suffered from lonliness and depression following my accident and I know well the scars that it can form, yet there are only two people in this world who ever had any idea.
One does not need to be blind or have missing limbs or some deadly illness to know what it is to suffer. Yet, I find loneliness very interesting, for how well do we know anyone? How well does anyone know us? But God knows us perfectly, one cannot hide anything from God and one need not try. For what greater friend has one than the one who knows your every need, even before it is even realized. This was very comforting to me as eventually I realized I was not alone and I learned that if God knew who and what I was then it didn't really matter if everybody else did or not. However, God did provide two people who cared enough to discover me, down to the last detail.
Of course for some reason that I do not yet know, this is very important to me. I guess my point is there is much suffering that goes unsaid and unnoticed, as such I refuse to judge anyone for I am clueless of their past or as Joe mentioned, of their future. The road even though it may appear smooth and straight has many hidden obstacles and each one walks alone with God.
Thanks for listening :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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A quick insight that I have come to realize. I always looked at trials and suffering as some are worse than others, but I have come to see that's not necessarily true. Everybody's trials are the same. It is almost like the theory of relativity because all things are relative. Throughout the world people are going through trials and tests that are the same whether it is hunger, loneliness, death, money, health, etc it is all the same. People have committed suicide for every reason under the sun. To that person at that moment that was as bad a problem as they could handle whether it was being turned away by their sweetheart or whether it was facing a debilitating disease.
Think on that some and then you may be able to at least cut back on things like coveting because when you covet someone else's position you just do not realize that their problems are as bad to them as yours are to you.
Got to run, but I just think grasping this is breaking more of those ties that bind.
CIY
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The road even though it may appear smooth and straight has many hidden obstacles and each one walks alone with God.
Darren,
I believe your quote above encapsulates our journey, when it all boils down we are walking with our Lord One on one.
Beautiful insight.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe I need to share with you. First I have to talk about gravity. It pulls all of us down every second of our day. It is so common we don't even think about it. Up and down a regular habit of being. God expanse. He is enlarging His family. It is the cross +
God was not strengthening me when I watched my son starve and dehydrate for 15 days. There was little left in me. This was when I took on Him.. The Bread of Life.He wasn't carrying me. It was a folding together. I was in Him and He was encompassing me. I in Him and He in me. I couldn't of made it otherwise. This saying suffering is all the same I have to disagree. Jesus suffered much more than me expansion. This is something you don't learn from reading your Bible. Its an action, a firer God walks you through. the uncovering of my flesh has been raw, hurtful stinkin, but a necessarily. I often feel a total failure of My ability to do any of His Work this is good because it is His work and His ability and His life to come forth In Him Peggy
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Hi Peggy,
I am afraid I do not understand what you are saying, when you said you "disagree about all suffering being the same" where and when did I say that? ???
I can tell you from my own personal experience that there are some very different degrees in pain and suffering and it can accomplish many things such as making us stronger in the Lord by realizing our helpless and weak condition, make us more empathetic in our dealings with others and also to appreciate things we tend to take for granted. On the other hand depending where He has us in our journey we can become embittered, hateful, angry, self destructive and dangerous to others. I have been there.
If we can endure (with His Spirit) and (spiritually) grow from the trials and tribulations we experience during this time in the world in faith that the ultimate good that comes from it will far, far outweigh this moment of suffering we will emerge from this a true Son or Daughter of the Living God.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Joe,
Your post reminded me of this passage:
Romans 8:16-19
For His Spirit joins with our spirit to affirm that we are God’s children. And since we are His children, we are His heirs. In fact, together with Christ we are heirs of God’s glory. But if we are to share His glory, we must also share his suffering.
Yet what we suffer now is nothing compared to the glory He will reveal to us later. For all creation is waiting eagerly for that future day when God will reveal who his children really are.
God's Peace.
Josh
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Perfect scriptures Josh!
Thank you,
Joe
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I said that all go through the same suffering. I am just coming to realize this, but I believe in one of Ray's videos he talks about how it is all the same. Just as we judge one sin as worst than another, we sometime judge one's trial as worst than another but if that person is being dragged to Jesus it is the rendering of his flesh. It is getting rid of his or her beast man and to that person it is a gripping, harrowing experience.
I believe God made it that way because he is no respecter of persons. When a person is humbled down to just realizing that all he has is God no matter what it takes to do that tothat person it is the same experience.
I hope you realize what I am trying to convey because it is an encouraging word to realize. We must all drink from the same cup that Jesus drank from and that is the cup that he asked his Father to let pass. We too, if we are faithful to the end, will (and are drinking) drink from that same cup. It is a miracle of God.
This is an interesting verse:
Ecclesiastes 9:2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.
God is awesome so we need to encourage one another to count it all joy.
CIY
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Ok, I'd like to weigh in on this, and incur wrath of some folks if necessary! :)
Suffering is relative? Yes, some people can handle things better, but what about people, Christians included, who can't handle things and then kill themselves? Where was their help? Was the help there, and they just didn't take/receive it?
The one aspect of sufferring that I find abhorent is sexual abuse. How about sexual abuse of a child? How in the world is that beneficial, or going to help that person to grow? How does the rape of a woman cause her to grow? Some will undoubtedly, but some will be traumatized till the day they die. And it will affect every relationship, and every interaction. I will apologize if some find this offensive, but these are real questions that you may have to explain to an unbeliever, not someone who might understand.
Or children that are molested, tortured, then killed? What was the purpose in that? These things happen in every society across the globe. To me that suffering is just suffering. I may be just too ignorant to see the big picture, but these are questions that bother me. I hate injustice towards children....and I have a real hard time with the whole "free will...no free will" thing, as well as suffering. It's one thing to know that one day all this will seem like a vapor, and that we'll all be redeemed, but that is little comfort to someone who is going through something right now, specially an unbeliever.
Forgive me for my ignorance but try to understand where I'm coming from. I don't always think clearly. I do see suffering causing people to grow, but I also see it absolutely destroying people, and some take their own lives.
I can see my suffering cause me to grow, and hopefully my wife as well. But there are some things that just don't make any sense in that area. Even the Jews that made it out of the Warsaw ghetto, they survived, but some of them were affected till they died, and it affected their families etc in a negative way.
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If God allows His children to suffer (I don't even want to fathom should He cause us to suffer) arguably more physical trauma, pain, and intensity than He did while on the cross....
If God cannot stop this suffering, is He omnipotent?
If God is omnipotent, He can prevent, alleviate, or eradicate the suffering of His children. If He is omnipotent and doesn't stop it because of some promise of a believer's "Suffer now for a great reward later" plan, there is a monstrous cruelty that is difficult to reconcile with Jesus' overarching message of kindness and love.
If I "allowed" my children to suffer the way that God allows His children to suffer, I would be jailed, scorned, and who-knows-what! And that's with my imperfect (but pretty awesome) love for my children.
As a parent, I do allow some short-term, non-debilitating pain to occur in my children so that they can learn -- not love. A skinned knee now teaches a child how not to break his leg later. But real suffering and torment and death for a lesson in loving? Why am I a kinder father than God?
If I am to be more Christ-like, do I need to allow my loved ones to suffer more so that they can realize more love later??
If God is love. If love is patient, kind, etc....
There must be a better explanation.
Peace
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Well this is a hard subject, I don't think there is an easy way to explain this. We are here is the flesh and enduring these things, so maybe it is incredibly hard to get a proper prospective on what God is working in the world.
Isa 28:21 For Jehovah shall rise up as in Mount Perazim; He shall be angry as in the valley of Gibeon, so that He may do His work, His strange work; and bring to pass His act, His strange act.
I think only the elect are being given a glimpse of understanding of 'His strange work,' which I believe has to do with all this suffering. Maybe we can not comprehend the good that will come from all this here and now, that's where faith comes in.
Though the suffering can be intense, I believe God would not put us through it unless it was for the greater good. And even those horrible acts that defy our understanding for now, I believe in some way, they will turn out to work for our benefit. Just because we can not now comprehend why, we must put our faith and trust in what He is doing. I reiterate this scripture that Josh brought up.
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Perhaps you will be satisfied with this explanation Pax.
We have got to get away from the "God allows certain things" mentality and syndrome. God CREATES, God DESTROYS, God HEALS, God KILLS, God CAUSES, God BRINGS ABOUT. God SAVES. God does not "allow" things that He has not foreordained to be! This popular doctrine among the religions of the world is utter unscriptural foolishness. The teaching suggests that man does things that God had no previous knowledge of, does not approve of, wishes would have never happened, but nonetheless, He "allows" them. Certainly He "allows" them in as much as He does not "disallow" them, but this still begs the question as to their true origin. God is the Creator, not Satan.
For more on this teaching refer to : http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
As Ray teaches, God ALLOWS is a mentality and syndrome we need to get away from. The definition of syndrome is any combination of signs and symptoms that are indicative of a particular disease or disorder. To my way of thinking, this illness is one of the plagues of Mystery Babylon that really needs to be healed by the truth.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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If God possesses the capacity to alleviate someone's suffering and doesn't, then He is allowing it.
Please actually read my posts before trying to reply to them. It would be appreciated.
Peace
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Why am I a kinder father than God?
Pax,
You are not the first to ask this question.....
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
If clay (pottery) or gold ore could were animate and could speak I am sure the same question would be asked (by both) as they experienced the kiln or the refiner's furnace.
Joe
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Hmmm....
Perhaps I am not too happy being a pot head! Who should be? I appreciate your reply.
Job reiterates than man is less perfect than God. Like I said, would it stand that God's love would be "kinder" than mine? Tough one, but good quote.
It still seems to highlight some very big questions regarding the nature of the potter. It is unsettling in light of other ways He has revealed Himself and His purpose.
Peace
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Suffering is relative? Yes, some people can handle things better, but what about people, Christians included, who can't handle things and then kill themselves? Where was their help? Was the help there, and they just didn't take/receive it?
I was thinking about this too.
1 Corinthians 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it
The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested. (from biblegateway.com)
Bible tells us God won't give us anything that we can't handle, but like Shmeggly said, in reality some people can't handle things and then they commit suicide, or they are finally broken, have a nerve breakdown, mental illness or whatever. Is the nerve breakdown/mental illness supposed to be a way out??? I am confused here.....
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I am not following you Pax. What do you mean by : Please actually read my posts before trying to reply to them. It would be appreciated.
God and only God has the ability to respond. Man is not running God's creation, God is. ...Satan is functioning PERFECTLY as God's adversary. Satan is essential to the purpose and salvation of the whole human race. That is why God created him in the first place L: Ray Smith http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
Please read Ray's teachings to try to grasp the fuller meaning, benefit and spirit of responses given.
God CREATED the WASTER to DESTROY. Satan SIFTS men like wheat. Satan the Devil has "seed" children and followers of like mind and nature. This is God's Plan not cop out.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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I agree Arcturus,
In Ray's writings, he says that until we get past the idea that God "allows" whatever it is whether it is good or evil and realize that God "causes" everything then we cannot begin to get a full understanding of the plan of God.
The disciples that heard Jesus said,"This is a hard saying, who can hear it?" The ones that could handle the hard teaching to the end were the ones that were eventually truly set free.
CIY
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Thank you for that edification CIY.
Most helpful.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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Ray nailed it at the Nashville Conference;
So I say the whole thing is bizarre. And I say that in love and hopefully with a little wisdom. This whole creation is bizarre. God is doing like He said in Isaiah 28:21 “a strange work.”
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
Thank you for transcribing this Kat.
It really is a must read and/or a must see if you are able to download and play the audio.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
P.S. You are welcome Pax
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1 Corinthians 10:13 And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it
The Greek for temptation and tempted can also mean testing and tested. (from biblegateway.com)
Bible tells us God won't give us anything that we can't handle, but like Shmeggly said, in reality some people can't handle things and then they commit suicide, or they are finally broken, have a nerve breakdown, mental illness or whatever. Is the nerve breakdown/mental illness supposed to be a way out??? I am confused here.....
Hi zvezda,
Remember this verse is intended for the elect it does not apply to everyone just as virtually the entire bible is a parable to the unbelievers and the called, they are not meant to understand any of it yet.
Christ will not lose any of those that the Father has chosen to do this great work of harvesting in the next age nor will He allow any temptation that they cannot bear nor will He allow them (hopefully that includes us) to be deceived, it is not possible.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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And also, I am reading where some folks questioning God's trials when they often shatter the spirits of people. Sometimes they can be overcome, but other times they lead to a person's demise. I think that the elect will always become stronger over time because of trials. However, this is not always so for the rest. I would say that most people become harder and more cynical because of life's evils.
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Joe, thanks for your reply, I didn't know that verse is intended for the elect only, thanks for clarifying :)
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Let me say this clearly.
If person "A" has the wherewithal to alter the course of situation "B," then "A" allows "B" to occur.
If God has the wherewithal to alter the course of suffering, then God allows suffering to occur.
Pretty much dictionary plain.
Now, in this thread, I have read some very, very unusual explanations. God does not allow suffering. God allows suffering, but not too much. God allows suffering but has a plan that is perfect and unalterable even by God!
The problem here is that a false premise leads to a false conclusion no matter how elegant or tidy.
It is clear that God permits (there, does that help?) or creates (how's that? It's still allowing!) suffering. The question for me (and others) then is "Why?"
Going on a holiday tomorrow.
Peace
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Let me say this clearly.
If person "A" has the wherewithal to alter the course of situation "B," then "A" allows "B" to occur.
If God has the wherewithal to alter the course of suffering, then God allows suffering to occur.
Pretty much dictionary plain.
Now, in this thread, I have read some very, very unusual explanations. God does not allow suffering. God allows suffering, but not too much. God allows suffering but has a plan that is perfect and unalterable even by God!
The problem here is that a false premise leads to a false conclusion no matter how elegant or tidy.
It is clear that God permits (there, does that help?) or creates (how's that? It's still allowing!) suffering. The question for me (and others) then is "Why?"
Going on a holiday tomorrow.
Peace
Hi Pax,
Why does a parent instruct, admonish and chastise a child?
Why would a parent take a small child to a strange atmosphere such as a doctor's office to be pricked by a needle causing the poor child to scream in fear and endure pain?
Why would a parent require a child to do anything other than what gave that child short term pleasure, ice cream for breakfast, MickyD's for every other meal, soda for every drink.
Why force them to go to school when they would rather play video games?
Why not just give them the keys to the car, your ATM card and unlimited access to the internet and permission to interact with anybody and everybody?
We do these things for their ultimate good and we do it with conviction knowing if we are lax or too lenient that both the child and parent will pay dearly at some point in time.
The questions above may very well seem to be elementary and redundant but as God desires true Sons and Daughters and not androids or robots we must learn righteousness through experiencing the consequences of sin, we must have any doubt about His will, plan and purpose removed by suffering through the results of living outside of what is Holy, Good & Eternal, what better way to learn this than having first hand knowledge of sin, evil and the temporal?
2Co 4:16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.
2Co 4:17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;
2Co 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
Heb 12:4 Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.
Heb 12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Heb 12:8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye ******** and not sons.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?
Heb 12:10 For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.
Heb 12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Ray explains this much better than I, please read or listen to the audio of this topic from the Nashville Conference.
His Peace to you,
Joe
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,2641.0.html
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Thanks for the thoughtful and surprising response!
(You may want to sit down for this next part...)
The tone of your post suggests that you disagree with what I have been offering, but your comments, text, and citations confirm that God allows suffering for whatever His reasons and plan may be!
This much is true: The mystery of His Plan will remain largely mystery; the beauty of His Plan is that we can both claim to be sons of the Most High even though we (often) disagree on the details. It is a poverty that there are those who cannot make that connection and publicly post that which should be privately discussed. Ah well!
Peace
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You are very welcome Pax, I have often said that no two of us here in the flesh on this earth can occupy the same space at the same moment in time (basic physics testifies to this) therefore our vantage points will never totally converge.
When we finally receive our inheritance and are spirit, incorruptable and immortal I suspect everyone will be on the same page as we are all in all in God.
We can all learn from each other even in disagreement if it inspires us to deeper study and prayers for understanding and clarity, we each are on a One on one walk with the Lord and that is how He designed it, we must recognize this in our brethren because all have a very high value in His eyes.
1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God's.
Thank you for your response,
Joe
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I still don't agree with this churchianity doctrine of "allow". If I see an old lady walking towards me and I move out of the way, I am allowing her to pass. However, If I become possessed (caused by some force) to push her down, I have caused her to fall down. If I walk into the expressway blindfolded, I am allowing a car or truck to destroy me, but if I first take off the blindfold and walk smack dab right in from of a Mac Truck moving 70 mph., I am causing it to crush me. Big difference.
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Hi Musicman :)
You wrote: "If I walk into the expressway blindfolded, I am allowing a car or truck to destroy me, but if I first take off the blindfold and walk smack dab right in from of a Mac Truck moving 70 mph., I am causing it to crush me. Big difference."
I'm not sure if I would agree. There are far to many factors involved to say that you caused the truck to crush you. What you have done is caused your body to move in front of the truck, ths allowing it to crush you. This is exactly the same as what happened if you were blind folded, the only difference is your ignorance of the truck, but the same actions caused you to move in front of the truck, allowing it to crush you.
Does that make sense. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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To jump in... Hi Joe, I love all of your postings with one small exception. On page 3 of this thread, a small paragraph of your otherwise great reply #32:
"The good news is that if we have a volunteering heart and accept the judgments of God on our lives now, we will be sure to avoid the harsher judgment on the whole world reserved for "that day."
This seems illogical to me that one individual's judgment would be "harsher" at one point or another. I think more correctly that God will deal out a judgment to each individual that will be fitting no matter when it is meted out. Surely you mean this and that your words just don't come across that way.
Further, because of the implication that if one turns up at the 2nd resurrection somehow their judgment will be "harsher" because they've been lumped in with all the rest of erring and ignorant humanity is also of course erroneous for the same reason. Surely you don't mean that at all either.
Lastly, I have found an erie sense of BAD BUG-A-BOO comments about the great white throne judgment here and there on this forum, especially among long-timers; that it will be really bad, horrible, fearful, dreadful and as you, Joe, seem to imply HARSHER than His judgment would be otherwise. I say not so and let's all collectively stop publishing this skewed notion of God's GREATEST DAY to come!! His day that will set things right!
Ray goes to great lengths to inform that the GWTJ will be in the "safe/fair habor" of God and that brimstone represents cleansing in it's godly and purest form. Where are the hints of fear, dread and HARSHNESS I hear echoed around here portrayed by Ray on this matter? Answer: Little or none at all.
I have come to liken the GWTJ by the following analogy, having been a respiratory therapist being on hand for the birthing of babies.... many are what we call a "WIPE OFF," just a quick cleaning up and off they go....
As responsible readers of Ray, let's not embellish what might happen at the GWTJ for the worst. Yes I know Ray says it will not be pleasant but he doesn't talk it up too much more than that. I quite frankly think ALL of the basic goodies (saints and called) who were not assigned to be Elect will be pleasantly surprised. :) For them, I think it'll sort be a "wipe off" :D as will those who never heard the Word, the prophets and many from the O.T. as well as those dying young or very young, etc.
I prayerfully thank you for all things Lord and Father, especially Joe's wonderful postings. ;D
Janice :)
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Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Hi Janice, as the verse above implies there will be different degrees of severity in that Great Day of Judgment, those that knew little will be judged in a less "wrathful" manner, but do not forget what the promise is to those who remain in Mystery Babylon in bed with the harlot.
Rev 16:19 And the great city was divided into three parts and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
That is not the destiny of the elect though;
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
Here is a portion from Ray's "Rapture" paper;
http://bible-truths.com/rapture.htm
At this point in our discussion, it will be helpful to define some words that are often interchanged as if they are virtually one and the same. It is important that we understand the meanings of important words that are wrongly applied by those who teach the rapture:
1. Affliction: Keyword Concordance, anguish, persecution, tribulation, trouble, ill treatment, suffering. Webster’s: affliction, any cause of pain or suffering.
AND
2.Tribulation: Keyword Concordance, affliction Webster’s: tribulation, great misery or distress
VERSUS
3.Wrath: Keyword Concordance, fury, indignation, vexation Webster’s: wrath, intense anger, rage, fury, vengeance
AND
4.Indignation: Keyword Concd., anger, vengeance, wrath Webster’s: Adj.-- indignation, expressing anger especially unjust or mean actions. Noun-- righteous anger.
Although there is somewhat of an overlap in defining these words, we can still get a clear picture as to how these words are used in the Scriptures. Notice that "affliction" and "tribulation" are nearly synonymous. Notice also, that "wrath" and "indignation" are nearly synonymous. "Affliction" can be defined as "tribulation," and "tribulation" can be defined as "affliction." Likewise, "wrath" can be defined as "indignation," and "indignation" can be defined as "wrath." But, the first two words, "affliction and tribulation" are not synonymous with the second two words, "wrath and indignation." There is a giant difference in their usage, and especially when used in a prophetic setting. I hope I haven’t lost anyone. Reread this a few times and you’ll get it.
It is when we fail to keep these prophetic events where they belong that we end up with ideas such that Christ is coming back a second time twice.
The Scripture says,
"For God did not appoint us to INDIGNATION ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
It nowhere says that God has not appointed us to trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, death, or hurricanes! In fact, Paul himself, tells us that we enter the Kingdom of God by going through a whole lot of these things (Acts 14:22).
I personally, presently, am going through trials, troubles, pain, suffering, heartache, disappointment, disease, and two very near death experiences in the past few years, not to mention hurricane Andrew. But, nonetheless, it is a great comfort to me to know that God has not appointed me to His indignation. Believers are chastised by a wise Father out of LOVE, the nations will be punished by an angry God out of VENGEANCE. Can we not see the difference? (Actually God’s "anger and vengeance" is also out of love, but the nations will certainly not initially perceive it as such).
When we look at all the ways that "indignation" is used in the Greek Scriptures, it becomes overwhelmingly clear that "indignation" is used of God to punish the wicked and stubborn. Indignation is not a direct form of chastisement. No matter how many, how much, how often, how severe your sufferings and tribulations may be, if you love God you can be absolutely guaranteed that not one iota of it is coming upon you in the form of God’s indignation. Here then is how, on whom, and when God pours out His indignation:
"Progeny of vipers! Who intimates to you to be fleeing from the impending indignation?" (Matt. 3:7).
"For God’s indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men ..." (Rom. 1:18).
"Yet, in accord with your hardness and unrepentant heart you are hoarding for yourself indignation in the day of indignation and revelation of the just judgment of God ..." (Rom. 2:5).
"Much rather, then, being now justified in His blood, we shall be saved from indignation, through Him" (Rom. 5:9).
"Now if God, wanting to display His indignation and to make His powerful doings known, carries, with much patience, the vessels of indignation ..." (Rom. 9:22).
"Being at peace with all mankind, you are not avenging yourselves, beloved, but be giving place to His indignation, for it is written, "Mine is vengeance! I will repay! The Lord is saying" (Rom. 12:19).
"Let no one be seducing you with empty words, for because of these things the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness" (Eph. 5:6).
"Deaden, then, your members that are on the earth: prostitution, uncleanness, passion, evil desire and greed, which is idolatry, because of which the indignation of God is coming on the sons of stubbornness ..." (Col. 3:5-6).
"Wherefore, ‘I am disgusted with this generation, and said, Ever are they straying in heart; Yet they know not My ways,’ As I swear in My indignation, If they shall be entering into My rest ...!" (Heb. 3:10-11).
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him Who is sitting on the throne, and from the indignation of the Lambkin, for the great day of Their indignation came, and who is able to stand? (Rev. 6:17).
"And the nations are angered, and Thy indignation came, and the era for the dead to be judged, and to give their wages to Thy slaves, the prophets, and to the saints and to those fearing Thy name, the small and the great, and to blight those who are blighting the earth" (Rev. 11:18-19).
"If anyone is worshiping the wild beast and its image, and is getting an emblem on his forehead or on his hand, he, also, is drinking of the wine of the fury of God, blended undiluted in the cup of His indignation, and he shall be tormented in fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy messengers and in the sight of the Lambkin" (Rev. 14:9-10).
"And Babylon the great is brought to remembrance in the sight of God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of His indignation" (Rev. 16:19).
"And He is treading the wine trough of the fury of the indignation of God, the Almighty" (Rev. 19:15).
There are the Greek Scriptures on indignation. Notice that it always comes from God. It is poured out in vengeance upon the unrepentant, the stubborn, the unjust and irreverent, those who worship the beast, etc. Never is God’s indignation poured out on His SAINTS! Not the Gentile saints and not the Jewish saints. The saints of Israel have not "been appointed to indignation", they are not "of the night," they will not "be overtaken as a thief," they are a part of "all the saints," I Thes. 2:14 and 3:13.
It is stated that those called in Paul’s message of grace will not go through the Great Tribulation period, because:
"Jesus, our Rescuer out of the coming indignation" (I Thes. 1:10),
and
"God did not appoint us to indignation ..." (I Thes. 5:9).
But look at our definitions of words again. God is promising to rescue us out of coming "indignation," not "tribulation." God did not appoint us to "indignation," but He did appoint us to "tribulation." These terms are not synonymous.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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ALL of the basic goodies (saints and called) who were not assigned to be Elect will be pleasantly surprised. :) For them, I think it'll sort be a "wipe off" :D as will those who never heard the Word, the prophets and many from the O.T. as well as those dying young or very young, etc.
Hello again Janice,
Thank you for the kind words, I agree with you that the OT Prophets and many of the unbelievers (especially the very young) and even some of the called will get correction and will learn righteousness in a less severe manner than others that exulted in their stubborness and evil works. But it is clear that being in the first resurrection will be immeasurably better than experiencing the "second death."
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Musicman,
I agree with you. The following is some great writing by Ray that hammers home the truth of whether God allows or not. I love this and would recommend anybody to read this over and over. The truth, and this is the truth, will set one free when they see it.
CAN YOU HANDLE THE TRUTH?
Even if we were to accept Mr. Robertson’s theory that God had nothing to do with this Christmas tsunami, we would still be forced to concede that “God allowed it.” That is, in fact, the terminology that is used in most discussions of this subject—Why did God “allow” it? Why does God “allow” this, that, and the other thing?
Allow, allow, allow. That is the mind-set of most discussions whether they are religious or secular—Why did God “allow” it? Surely no one doubts God’s ability to stop any or all such catastrophes if He so desired? A man in an Atlanta Court House murdered three people. Since God obviously did not stop it, why then did God “allow” it? Would you really like to know why God “allowed” those murders and why He allowed the Christmas tsunami?
And not only why did He allow this tsunami, but all tsunamis, and typhoons, and hurricanes, and floods, and tornadoes, and violent thunderstorms, and rock slides and mud slides, and avalanches, and volcanoes, and earthquakes, and forest fires, and droughts, and famines, and diseases, wars and holocausts, and (not just the killing 3 people in Atlanta), but all deaths? Do you really want to know why God “allows” these things? Are you sure you are ready for God’s answer to this most profound mystery in all creation?
I am reminded of the film, “A Few Good Men.” In a dramatic court scene Tom Cruise demands of the witness: “I want the TRUTH!” To which Jack Nicholson shouts back: “You can’t HANDLE the TRUTH!!”
This is what I fear is the situation here. People think they want the truth, but they can’t handle the truth. Very few indeed want the whole Truth: the whole counsel of God. And most of those who have heard it have been highly offended by it. Often they killed the messengers who brought God’s message of Truth. That’s just how offensive the Truth of God is to the carnal mind. I have a drawer full of emails that speak volumes against God’s Truth.
But I know that there are a few chosen of God to whom the Truth is not offensive. For those few I will continue. As Joan Rivers used to say: “Can we talk?” Are your kids in bed? Can we talk? The remainder of this series on free will is not for the immature or faint of heart.
Okay then, back to our question: Why does God “allow” all of the pain, suffering, disasters, and even mass killing of the innocent to happen? Actually, the question is not even a legitimate question because God does not “allow” any of these disasters to happen. Here then is one of the greatest truths in all the world and of all Scripture:
God does not “allow” anything to happen: God is the ultimate CAUSE of all things that happen!
If a person is able to prevent a crime (let’s say without any expense or harm to himself) but doesn’t, he is no better than the one who commits the crime. So now the question is: “Where is Jesus Christ when all such crimes are committed?" Is Jesus no more powerful or responsible than the god Baal?
“About noontime, Elijah began mocking them [the priests of Baal]. You’ll have to shout louder than that; he scoffed, to catch the attention of your god! Perhaps he is talking to someone, or is out sitting on the toilet, or maybe he is away on a trip, or is asleep and needs to be wakened!” (I Kings 18:27, The Living Bible).
No, Jesus does not live far far away on the other side of the universe in a place called heaven. Heaven is not a place; heaven is the realm of spirit. Jesus does not sleep in heaven. Jesus does not live in a physical heaven. Jesus will not live in a physical body full of holes, for the rest of eternity either. It is impossible to even think about these important issues of life with the mentality of Christian doctrines. Jesus Christ is “spirit”: “Now the Lord is that SPIRIT…” (II Cor. 3:17). Make no mistake about it; Jesus Christ is present at every crime scene that ever was or will be.
Jesus is at the scene of every crime in the world, and He is there before the crime actually happens. What would Jesus say to a woman if she were in the presence of some slimeball who is hell-bent on raping her little daughter? We know that Jesus is there, but what if Jesus manifested Himself right there, at the scene? What would Jesus say when the woman would beg Him to stop this slimeball from raping or murdering her daughter?
Surely He would stop the crime, right? Well if that be the case, how come there are so many rapes and murders that have not been prevented by Jesus? Do not all parents (almost all) pray for the safety of their children? So the pat Christian answer is: “Well, we don’t know why, but God allowed it.” God no more allows crimes that harm one or two individuals than he allows tsunamies that harm and hundreds of thousands.
I am well aware of the fact that Jesus does at times intervene and stop some crime or evil from taking place. I am now referring to those times when He does not intervene and stop the crime. Why does He “allow” it?
You say, “Well, nobody knows the answer to that!” Oh but we do know the answer. The Scriptures give us the answer. We don’t want the Scriptural answer. We don’t want the truth. We can’t handle the truth. And woe to the messenger who delivers the truth!
And just what do we think we gain by using the catch phrase: “God allowed it?” Does that phrase get God off the hook of responsibility and place the responsibility upon His mal-functioning inventions? Does the word “allow” carry the connotation: “I had nothing to do with it?” “My hands are clean?” “It’s not my job to prevent evil crimes?” Is this what the word “allow” really means?
The American Heritage College Dictionary:
“ allow v. –lowed, -lowing, -lows. 1. To LET do or happen; PERMIT.”
“permit v. –mitted, -mitting, -mits. 1. To ALLOW the doing of; CONSENT. 2. To GRANT. 3. To AFFORD OPPORTUNITY.
Now then, do we feel better about this theological heresy and nonsense by using the word “allow”? If a Police Officer were to, LET HAPPEN, PERMIT, CONSENT, GRANT, and AFFORD OPPORTUNITY for a horrible crime to take place without lifting a finger to stop it, would he be morally guiltless for “allowing” it to happen? Does the catch phrase “allow” with all of its definitions somehow make void the responsibility of the Police Officer? Is God Almighty less capable and less responsible than even a carnal-minded Police Officer?
Why then do theologians invent their own solution to the problem by applying the unscriptural word “allow” to the acts of God, rather than to accept the plain truth of Scripture concerning these matters? Well, for the exact same reason they invent the unscriptural phrase “free-will” to get God off of the hook of responsibility for the evils in God’s Own creation! They don’t want the truth; they can’t handle the truth; the truth would convict their own evil and carnal-minded hearts, and they would be forced to humble themselves and repent!
Could any of us honestly say with respect to our presence at an imminent crime, that if we: “allowed, let happen, permitted to happen, consented to its happening, granted it to happen, and afforded it the opportunity to happen,” then our hands are clean? We have no involvement in the crime? We had no obligations, and we are not to be held accountable and responsible?
You know that I speak the truth, but many of you can’t handle the truth.
So am I saying that since God is the Creator of all, and Sustainer of all, and by Him all things Consist, and He already knows all that is and will be, and He works all things after the counsel of His Own will, that all of the crimes of the world are a part of God’s plan? No, that is not my teaching. But this is precisely what the Scriptures say! This is not some perverted theory. I read it in the Bible—in hundreds and hundreds of places!
I have no problem in justifying God in all of His doings, even though I personally am overwhelmed at times over the magnitude of pain and evil that God has subjected us to. It is humbling! It surely does produce God’s desired purpose, and I can personally attest to this fact. Inventing an unscriptural and anti-scriptural term like "human free will" or "free choice" does not remove the consequences of evil from God's shoulders.
This whole paper should be read over and over until this truth is solid because it turns the bible into a brilliant living and moving kaleidiscope of truth that is true no matter which way you turn it.
CIY
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Gotcha and righto Joe... THANKS A LOT! :) ;) :)
Back to the topic of this thread, sufferings... I've been keeping a running collection of Scripture verses that I run into with the theme of: Our Afflictions, Tribulations and Sufferings. Would you believe there are over 100 related N.T. verse sets? Other words and terms that are included in this collection are:
Walk as He walked, pick up your cross, take My yoke, crucify the flesh, present a living sacrifice, die with Him, crucified with Christ, baptized into His death, enduring trials/testing, he who destroys his soul, dying to bring forth much fruit, as He is so are we, the world hates you, troubles, perplexed, persecuted, cast down, refining, labors, distresses, and to you who overcome....
and NONE of these approximate 100 verse sets EVEN include another whole separate theme of being chastened, chastisement, sourged, rebuked, corrected.
Going over all these verses at one time is impressive and gives me the idea of what being a follower of Christ is really all about... versus "clocking in" an hour a week at the local synogogue of Satan then going on with one's life having been essentially unchanged.
Love in Him,
Janice
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Love it Rodger. That "cuz you are and I AM" really caught my attention!! ;)
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Rodger wrote:
And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you ARE and " I AM "
I am sorry Rodger but I digress. God is purpose, God is also wise for He beyond anything else is knowledge in action.
Who would think him so callous to treat his children some even is chosen as dirt beneath his hypothetical feet.
It is my belief and understanding, that if man should question God for the pain and humiliation that one is being subjected to with a sincere heart and a trusting soul, then God will in all honesty reveal his reason and lesson to be learned.
Even to those who are yet blind. Are they blind of truth of their on violation. Of course not, yet if one should even ask: "Lord, why the pain?" Do you really think God is going to throw it back into his/her face.
Rodger I believe that your answer is misleading and wrong. God is not vindictive to those who seek him, why does he need to be.
My hope is that you take this in the spirit given :)
Love in Christ, the Lamb.
Darren
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Darren, I re read Rodgers post again and didn't see what you saw.
How did Rodger say God was vindictive. We are all w/o excuse-we all sin and come short of the glory(hand in jar).
Well, I know Rodger can well explain his own posts.
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Hi Gena,
Of course Rodger can stand up for himself, but the word vindictive came to mind because of it's meaning.
Quick definitions (vindictive) http://onelook.com/?w=vindictive&ls=a (http://onelook.com/?w=vindictive&ls=a)
adjective: disposed to seek revenge or intended for revenge (Example: "More vindictive than jealous love- Shakespeare")
adjective: showing malicious ill will and a desire to hurt; motivated by spite
This would seem (in my mind) fit very well with Rodgers words of: "And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you ARE and " I AM ""
Is this not saying: You are suffering and what are you going to do about it?
Well it is according to my understanding of the English langauge :)
Thanks for your comment,
Darren
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I took it to mean; I am God and know a bit more about all this than you do. (In other words, trust me)
Sorin asked in a thread, what would you ask God. Maybe we should ask then....Why was suffering necessary to your plan?
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GENA
BRAVO and A M E N
Is this not the SPIRITUAL ENLIGHTENMENT we get from reading JOB.
Where God states who are you to question me.............reading does a mind so good.
God bless
Rodger
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Hi Rodger, I am sorry that you took it this way.
You say: Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word.
milk and cookies
And I will ask you a simple question: Has God ever answered you in such away, because He surely hasn't in such a way to me. There is a lesson in everything, Ask and you shall receive (Luk 11:9)
Are you saying I am blind to the meat. Please. :(
I still love you brother :)
Love In Christ the Lamb
Darren
Darren
In short go read JOB and re-read the ending of JOB over and over and over....
Take in the spirit JOB enlightement is to feed you and nothing else.
It is my belief and understanding, that if man should question God for the pain and humiliation that one is being subjected to with a sincere heart and a trusting soul, then God will in all honesty reveal his reason and lesson to be learned.
Even to those who are yet blind. Are they blind of truth of their on violation. Of course not, yet if one should even ask: "Lord, why the pain?" Do you really think God is going to throw it back into his/her face.
Dareen please show me in JOB where God will in all honesty reveal his reason and lesson to be learned.
And tell us what God tells to those who ask why ?
adjective: showing malicious ill will and a desire to hurt; motivated by spite
This would seem (in my mind) fit very well with Rodgers words of: "And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you ARE and " I AM ""
Is this not saying: You are suffering and what are you going to do about it?
Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word.
milk and cookies
Rodger
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okay something I believe you all are missing that is no one directly cause this suffering God chosen God's elect. Doesn't God make us just the way we are? And doesn't He put us in the family He wants us in ect....God does things that our human mind can not comprehend. all this talk all these words have you ever lived each day in fear of what is going to happen next to you. as a child? Do you think you have that much control as to how you are going to not go crazy? Sometimes you do go crazy and the Lord Jesus Christ brings you back, some that is. We aren't that BIG and one more thing He doesn't strengthen us in a trial he is our strength. When its over that's what we learn He is our strength. We aren't stronger in Him He is stronger in us, and we know it then. some are not thinking straight. I have walked through the firer more than once I am not here to tell the stories. Its not about me at all I am nothing a weak broken vessel waiting for Him to pour down upon me His anointing to do His Will. Because I can' t Do His Will with out Him. What is the point of all this ? To show people what you know. Look at the original question? Does anyone have the Word of the Lord Jesus Christ? Again no one not one said any thing about the Mentally ill why? Leper This is crazy Peggy
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Darren
You say: Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word.
milk and cookies
And I will ask you a simple question: Has God ever answered you in such away, because He surely hasn't in such a way to me. There is a lesson in everything, Ask and you shall receive (Luk 11:9)
This is so tempting........ 8), but you ask a question, my answer is OF COURSE He does. He is God THE BEGINING and the END !
Altough Darren, if remotly you are reffering to what i posted "Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word. and applying it as if possibly God would say such, Then Darren you are in an worldly carnal enigma.
How inane, should anyone think they can prideful bring God down to human nature. If this is the divinty with which anyone cast on our Father, then get thy behind me.......and i wash my hands of you. ((anyone who would be foolish to apply sinful man's attributes to God))
Who am i ((Rodger)) to ever question God.....And who is anyone to instill in thier hearts and minds, unto God attributes of sinful man.
When has sinful man ever created anything out of NOTHING, so as to think man can stand equal to God, the boundaries of the carnal mind knows no shame.
Spiritualy Darren you have missed the understanding of my post and are focus on me instead, as the individual your heart and mind portrays me as.
The called out and chosen are not those who are luke warm and sit at the side of the road and ponder "WHY ?"
milk and cookies with luv
Rodger
Now we can lock this puppy.......
Rodger, only now do I see where you are coming from, yet in your zeal to belittle me and all that I wrote, you mock and you condemn. :(
Let us please before this thread degrades any further reach a common understanding. :)
You wrote, and I repeat: "And puny man should think to question "why all the suffering ?", the ANSWER is because you are and " I AM ""
I can only assume you are referring to the Question being asked as: "Why God? Why did you do this to ME??????" (How carnal)
Yet your context, does not disallow the question to be ask in the following manner: "God, I know your ways are higher than my ways and I know everything is for my own good, but God, I need some help to fully understand what I am missing....Why all the Suffering"
Rodger, I did not focus on you, I focused on the words that you wrote, just as I do now:
Altough Darren, if remotly you are reffering to what i posted "Your heart reads into post what you let it.............I can not open your eyes to the meat of the Word. and applying it as if possibly God would say such, Then Darren you are in an worldly carnal enigma.
How inane, should anyone think they can prideful bring God down to human nature. If this is the divinty with which anyone cast on our Father, then get thy behind me.......and i wash my hands of you. ((anyone who would be foolish to apply sinful man's attributes to God))
Yet, while you wash your hands of me, are you to going to dismiss the words of Christ?
Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.
Jhn 16:26 At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:
Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all [men] liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
How can any be pridefully bringing God down to "their" level, if they even attempt to ask God for wisdom and understanding. Not so they can ESCAPE the suffering, but so they can UNDERSTAND and LEARN from it. Are you even suggesting that God denys even what He so freely gives? :)
Rodger, this is where the "meat" is, it is the realization that one can do nothing on ones own. It is the letting go of every carnal belief in oneself and trusting God completely, AND knowinf without exception that He will show the way and pull one back when one begins to falter and stumble. So yes, God has always answered me, though not always in the way that I expected, yet NEVER in the way you suggest.
I am sorry that I failed to see the intent of your question, the clause you added at the end of your response was not forthwith in the original. You mentioned nothing about "sitting on the edge of the road pondering 'Why?'"
Perhaps we both should take a long and meaningful look at the following Words of Wisdom.
Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam [is] in thine own eye?
Mat 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
It is my hope that we can find common ground between us in the love of Christ who died for all men alike.
Love in the Lamb,
Darren
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Hey Darren,
I had the same initial reaction that you did. To say that man's actions are a contributory cause to his suffering is similar to saying that man's actions are a contributory cause to his salvation. It seemed not only misleading but smacked of man's arrogance and belief in free will. Heresy!
Though it seemed the cookie monster had struck again ;), I don't think that was the intended message. Gina picked up on it and it is what I believe we have be dancing around this whole thread. What is God's plan?
Maybe the elect, whoever they may be, understand His plan but I haven't been able to piece it together. I think I got some of the clues. Maybe these are parts to the puzzle, maybe not:
What does scripture say about the worth of human physical body to God? Anything really positive there?
Filthy rags, vessels of dishonor..etc....
If physical existence were important to Him, death wouldn't be our end. It seems that our physical existence is more of a trial period of learning than anything else.
What about the idea of many are called, few are chosen? What about those that aren't even called? What is the purpose of their lives?
Here is a perspective I don't remember reading but perhaps I missed it is this rather long thread. What if part of His plan is to have some of us as expendable examples for those of His chosen to learn from. He has time and again shown us in the OT how "valuable" human physical life is to Him. He wiped out the entire human race except for Noah and his family. It was certainly a clear message to Noah if no one else. Noah seems to be shadow of His intended plan for His elect.
I don't have an answer for the suffering but I accept that His will is foremost even though His plan and purpose a mystery to me.
Thanks Joe, Janice and everyone for those inspiring posts. Your thoughtful sharing is a blessing to me.
be blessed,
feat
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Hi Feat :)
Thanks for your post. I do not believe for a second that the Elect, whoever they maybe, have the slightest inkling of what God has planned, other than that God is preparing them to for judging at the time of the resurection.
However, you ask: "What does scripture say about the worth of human physical body to God? Anything really positive there? "
As a matter of fact yes :)
1Cr 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?
But the physical body is not important in and of itself; rather it is the vessel that with the Spirit of life, becomes the Soul. And as such, is what we use on our journey on the road to truth. The purpose of life as we know it is to live and grow in truth, the very truth that God himself grants. God cares about the body, otherwise he would not look after it.
Mat 6:30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, [shall he] not much more [clothe] you, O ye of little faith?
I agree with you 100%, everything that happens is an opportunity to grow in Truth. If we do do not understand, are we to dismiss it and shrug it off, or should we ask for guideance. Surely if any were told that they had terminal cancer, they would implore God to help them understand what He wants of them. Is it to have faith enough to beat it, or is it to accept it and be an inspiration to all right to the end. The lesson could be anything, but how can anyone know if one does not ask God for understanding? :)
This is my understanding, God walks with us, it man who chooses to walk alone. I say choose not and ask for help. :)
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hey Darren,
1Co 6:18 Flee fornication! Every sin, whatsoever a man shall commit, is, outside his body, but, he that committeth fornication, bringeth sin into his own body.
1Co 6:19 Or know ye not that, your body, is, a shrine of the Holy Spirit that is within you, which ye have from God? And ye are not your own;—
1Co 6:20 For ye have been bought with a price! Therefore glorify God in your body.
Thanks for bringing up Corinthians. It is one of my favorites. Even though it says nothing about whether our bodies are any better than 'vessels of dishonor", it very clearly emphasizes my point that our bodies are not our own and should be used to glorify God God chooses to do with them as He wishes.
I agree with you 100%, everything that happens is an opportunity to grow in Truth. If we do do not understand, are we to dismiss it and shrug it off, or should we ask for guideance. Surely if any were told that they had terminal cancer, they would implore God to help them understand what He wants of them. Is it to have faith enough to beat it, or is it to accept it and be an inspiration to all right to the end. The lesson could be anything, but how can anyone know if one does not ask God for understanding?
Clearly, while we can only hope that what happens to us is an opportunity for growth, my prior post and point of perspective was that maybe some of us are not meant to be anything other than throw away examples for growth of those who have been chosen. What about those not called or chosen?
Here is a quote that gave me some perspective on faith and me continuously asking God WHY? WHY?. WHY?
The science of theology is full of theories
and explanations of the wonders of this state in each soul according to its
capacity. One may be conversant with all these speculations, speak and write
about them admirably, instruct others and guide souls; yet, if these
theories are only in the mind, one is, compared with those who, without any
knowledge of these theories, receive the meaning of the designs of God and
do His holy will, like a sick physician compared to simple people in perfect
health. The designs of God and his divine will accepted by a faithful soul
with simplicity produces this divine state in it without its knowledge, just
as a medicine taken obediently will produce health, although the sick person
neither knows nor wishes to know anything about medicine.
ABANDONMENT TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE
- by Jean Pierre de Caussade, S.J.
While an imperfect discussion of Faith, it gave me a little perspective on myself. I hope it helps in our understanding.
be blessed
feat
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Hi Feat :)
Yep, I forgot to explicitly mention that every opportunity, even the suffering or death of a non-believer, provides an opportunity to grow in truth.
As for Corinthians I think a "Shrine of the Holy Spirit" and "vessel of dishonor" should not refer to the same body. Perhaps the body is inherently a vessel of dishonor until it becomes a shrine of the Holy Spirit. :)
Thanks for sharing a little of yourself and it has helped in our understanding. :)
Love to you in Christ,
Darren
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Hi Rodger, :)
I sure am glad God reads hearts and knows mine. ::)
Clearly I have upset you and that was never my intention.
Rom 14:19 Trust Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Love in Christ
Darren
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I'm with Darren and Pax on this one....who cares if suffering is allowed or caused; it's still happening. Which is worse? Isn't it just semantics? Just a thought....
It's like holding my daughter's hand to a hot element till it smolders, and then saying, "There, you'll learn a valuable lesson now!" She would have learned all she needed to know about a hot stove in a much less harsh way with a short touch on her own. Lesson learned....
What I want to know is, if one of our Christian friend's children gets sexually abused, tortured, and killed, is any one going to tell them either "God caused it" or "God allowed it"....I know I sure as shiite won't.
I'm just a simple guy, and I don't claim to understand a lot. And I have read everything on Ray's site over and over. I don't get no free will, and I don't get this suffering. Because according to what I'm hearing, God causes child rape. I use this examples of children because it is one of the worst things out there. And it is much harder to fit in with this approach.
We should be able to question these things without being made to feel like idiots, just like people in the church should be able to question tithing etc. People are on different levels, and have had more/less revelation from God. I don't agree with the sarcasm etc. when a person is trully asking and not coming from a "superior" position like they are right and that's it.
Anyway....I posted this from my heart, knowing I would get scorched somewhat. I'm not trying to put anyone's ideas down, just wanting some answers to some hard questions. I don't have the answers....that's why I'm here.
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Um, excuse me gentlemen, I hope you don't mind me interupting, but I just wanted to say something to Janice.
Hi there Janice!
I just LOVE how you compared what would happen at the GWTJ with your experience with newborn babies! Some will just need a wipe off, and off they go. So true. Some who are not the elect have gone through much in their experience with God. Perhaps they don't have all the knowledge at this time, but our wonderful heavenly Father is going to deal fairly with them.
Your post came at the right time for me. I was speaking with a friend of mine who's mother passed away recently. Her mother was a churchgoer all her life, and she suffered greatly at the hands of her husband, and also in her physical body. She loved God and turned to Him to help her with all the adversities in her life. God is merciful as well as just.
Love,
Ursula
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Hello Rodger
A few reasons why evil doctrines flourish is because
1. "The heart [of carnal unconverted mankind] is DECEITFUL ABOVE ALL THINGS, and DESPERATELY WICKED: who can know it" (Jer. 17:9).
2. "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which DECEIVES THE WHOLE WORLD..." (Rev. 12:9).
3. "Because the carnal [natural] mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be" (Rom. 8:7).
Also another reason is Christendom does not know the Scriptures, Plans, Wisdom, Power or Love of God.
Harryfeat
Ray says : The inconsonant, incongruous, inconsistent teachings of Christendom are bewildering.
I believe that sums up the Jesuit Catholic excerpt you posted. For me it said nothing and meant less. I am an ex Catholic! Called, dragged out of the Harlot errors and false teachings. Ray observes and I agree that Christian heresies are mind-destroying drugs.
For reference to the above excerpts and teachings please read : http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
Ciy
Your most appropriate contribution of what is taught via Ray, in connection to this discusion, did not go unnoticed or unappreciated. I enjoy reading and revisiting the deep truths that are revealed through our teacher Ray. Thank you.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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My children were tortured and sexually abused by a terrible evil man when they were young. I believe that God caused it. I do not believe that God stands by and allows things to happen. That always made me so angry when the church told me that. It hurt me. Why would God just stand by and allow that to happen to my children when I prayed for their protection every night when they went to bed? What kind of a God would just stand by and watch when he had to power to stop it? I found more comfort than anyone could imagine when I came here and read Ray's papers about evil being used for God's purpose. I was raped at 10 years old and abused as a child and I can say that God caused it and can now be thankful that he did.
If I had not gone through all that suffering I would still be in the church today. It was the suffering that led to the bondage of my carnal desires that led me to see my beast. I could not fake being good like the rest of the church members. God showed me my beast and then he began healing me with the truth. He healed my daughter. He is working on my son. We would not know God without our suffering.
I also had the unique experience of watching every single circumstance being used by God to pull up the hidden things within me and expose the secrets that I had buried as a child to survive my abuse. These secrets were causing the bondage to the sin in my life. Even the words that others spoke were caused by God for this purpose in my life. It got to the point that I knew what God was working on by looking at the circumstances in my life. Every few months I would go through a different set of circumstances that were directed at one area of my life that needed to be dealt with. The suffering on top of that was used to break down my defenses that were so strong.
I watched the same thing in my daughter's life. I watched God heal her and teach her truth though her suffering. My son has been an alcoholic for 20 years and I'm watching God work in his life.
My grandson and granddaughter are compassionate, obedient, wonderful children. They suffer with chronic, daily, hard to treat migraines. They are on home hospital and my grandson has not been able to go to school for years. It rips my heart out to watch them suffer. It also brings me comfort to be able to tell them that God is using their suffering also for his purpose and plan in their lives. I would not be alive today if I didn't believe that. I accept that even death is in his plan. Even death by evil actions of others. My husband's suicide was in God's plan.
Knowing that God is in charge of everything keeps the questions away. I don't have to know the answers now. God knows the answers. That does not mean that I don't weep over the suffering and the suffering of others. I do weep and do wrestle to hold on to the faith that God has given me. I have faith that God is sovereign.
I had the unique opportunity to sit with my 9 year old granddaughter on the porch a few months ago. She was at the point when she could listen and understand some truth. I taught her that all will be saved. I taught her that there was no hell. I taught her that God was in control of everything. She had a hard time understanding how God uses evil for our good. I told her Satan and evil were like a power saw. God uses it to cut away our carnal mind.
She came out to the kitchen a couple of nights ago after reading her children's bible before bed and said. I understand how Satan and evil are used as power tools, but why did God make Adam and Eve eat the fruit? I had to weep that she understood God's sovereignty enough to know that he caused them to eat the fruit. That was God working in her little life.
Psalm 23
A psalm of David.
1 The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death, [a]
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.
5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever.
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MG, You are an inspiration to us all. :)
God's Spirit is clearly in you and it is wonderful hearing how He is working through you in your children and grandchildren.
The 23 Psalm is perfect, and I think I should have it pasted to my bathroom mirror, so that I could read it and be reminded of Gods love and strength every single day.
Love in Christ,
Darren
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Hi M.G.
Every time I read a testimony from you and hear of the suffering in your life, my heart goes out to you. I am blessed from the words of wisdom you share.
mercy, peace, and love
Kat
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Harryfeat
Ray says : The inconsonant, incongruous, inconsistent teachings of Christendom are bewildering.
I believe that sums up the Jesuit Catholic excerpt you posted. For me it said nothing and meant less. I am an ex Catholic! Called, dragged out of the Harlot errors and false teachings. Ray observes and I agree that Christian heresies are mind-destroying drugs.
For reference to the above excerpts and teachings please read : http://bible-truths.com/lake2.html
Hey Arcturus,
Thanks for the cite reference. I am very familiar with the article. I also share Ray's view on the matter.
I am too well aware of how heresy can feel so comfortable and easily taint our thinking. I am also aware that falsely accusing people of spreading heresy even by implication can be such a damaging tool used by those who try to promote themselves rather than the truth.
I respect and accept your opinion that you derived nothing from the quote. Your opinion is one we obviously do not have in common. However, if you would be so kind as to point out the heresy you are implying without outright stating it, I would appreciate it. Further, I will in advance apologize to all who have read the quote, and remove it from my post. I'll also try to replace it with my own even more inadequate wording as an opinion about faith instead. For me, it merely stated an opinion about faith better than I was able. I felt it only fair to give proper authorship credentials.
I too am an ex catholic but I haven't thrown the baby out with the bath water. You'll find that Ray still likes his KJV even though it is full of translation error. He just makes substitutions where necessary.
I think I have shed the bulk of the heresy and am working on dealing with the rest of my uncertainties.
I appreciate any such errors I make pointed out to me. For that I am grateful since I am just a seeker of truth like the rest of us here.
be blessed
feat
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Hey MG.
Thank you for sharing. Words are inadequate to share my empathy with the grief in your life and your family's lives. I know something of it first hand. Sharing it with others has been too difficult. You are truly an inspiration to us all.
be blessed
feat
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MG
That is a great testimony and so well said. Anyone who doubts God's sovereignty and that He is causing everything to happen exactly like it is happening for His good purpose should read your testimony over and over.
Anyone feeling sorry for themselves should take a lesson from your testimony.
Anyone feeling that they are down and out with no hope left should read your testimony.
And anyone that believes that they should raise their children in church so that they too can come out of Bablyon should read your testimony. (It was the children that were raised in the wilderness that went into the promise land with Joshua and Caleb. Their parents that tried to come out of Egypt and could not get in out of their minds, died in the desert)
Thanks for the encouragement.
CIY
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One other quickie.
I work in marketing and we were speaking yesterday about advertising dollars and how best they can be spent. We all agreed that advertising in the media can make someone aware of the product, but by far the best way to get faithful customers were for them to have a great experience with the product. Then they know themselves the truth of what you are trying to get across in an ad.
This goes to what MG's testimony is an example of and how God's plan plays out.
That is why we have suffering so we can have the experience and will then know in our hearts. God puts his plan in everything so that when we really have the eyes to see. We see.
CIY
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Beautiful words of faith and courage MG.
Thank you,
Joe
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Feat you observe: Thanks for the cite reference. I am very familiar with the article. I also share Ray's view on the matter.
Which view might that be? Certainly not Ray's view that : The inconsonant, incongruous, inconsistent teachings of Christendom are bewildering. That view, for me, fits your Jesuit heretic Catholics writing to the letter. Do you think Ray is falsely accusing people of spreading heresy? Do you think Ray is trying to promote himself rather than the truth? Do you think Ray follows and respects and agrees with the teachings of any Catholic Jesuit which hold the highest rank and order next to the Pope in the entire Christian dome of deception?
Jesus Christ IS the Truth. We do not have to borrow from the wisdom of the world its foolishness. If we want to copy the wisdom of the world or promote the teachings coming out of Babylon then we are not following the Truth and neither can we say we are the same as others who are genuinely being dragged away from the deceptions and false teachings of the harlot blasphemous devious divisive Mother of Blasphemies, to follow Christ. What a wrong to them who are suffering their cross to carry it and follow and do as Christ did, and that is to speak the truth with no desire for approval, following or agreement.
MG
Your testimony glorifies Christ. It reminds me of these two scriptures :
John 17 : 20 Neither for these alone do I pray, but also for all those who will ever come to believe in Me through their word and teaching.
Rev 12:11 And they have overcome him by means of the blood of the Lamb and by the utterance of their testimony, for they did not love and cling to life even when faced with death.
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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MG: You've lived exactly what I was describing....and I appreciate your openess and willingness to share what happened.
I still am not sure why it's better that God caused the suffering rather than allowed it. Maybe I'm just a "stunned puppy!" :) But one thing I do know, that if you can have the attitude you do, having gone through what you have....all I can say it "wow". Hopefully I can one day see things like you do, and not be so blind. I still have a hard time with explaining it to someone....but like I said you've lived it, and you can still see God. I hope this makes sense to people reading it....
ciy: as far as people feeling sorry for themselves and taking hope, just remember everyone is different, and everybody reacts differently to circumstances. Some will handle things like what MG has gone through and take hope, others will not.
And according to all this, God is causing even their reactions, so it's all according to plan.
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Hey Acturus you stated
Do you think Ray is falsely accusing people of spreading heresy? Do you think Ray is trying to promote himself rather than the truth? Do you think Ray follows and respects and agrees with the teachings of any Catholic Jesuit which hold the highest rank and order next to the Pope in the entire Christian dome of deception?
I will gladly answer your questions but I would very much like a more direct response to my prior without repeating the posturing please.
Firstly, I haven't read or heard anything Ray has said where I believed he felt he was falsely accusing people of spreading heresy. I have no reason to believe that Ray's motives are not driven by promoting the truth. As to your third question, though I do not know the degree to which he respects others, there is no doubt in my mind that he does not tolerate heresy from any source. I believe that Ray would have stated what heresy he might have found in that quote and given his support for his answer. All you have done thus far is give your general view without specifics. Fourthly, I am disappointed by the implications you are making by even asking me these questions when I have already stated I agree with Ray's views.
Which brings me to my question. What part of the quote do you specifically see as heresy or that is in any way against what Ray teaches? If I had recognized either, I wouldn't have posted it. You have me at a disadvantage since I don't know what heresy has been given. The quote in my opinion is just a view of the acceptance through faith that Gods will is for our good.
If your only answer is that we are not to accept anything, regardless of the truth from those in babylon, I understand your stance. I am not quite sure that is exactly what Ray is saying to us, although he has wisely cautioned us to be very wary and be like the Bereans in those matters. However. I am hoping that you can help me with this and possibly anyone else, who, like me, doesn't see the heresy that you see in the words of the quote. The lesson could be beneficial and edifying for all.
be blessed
feat
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What"s this ! What is this !! :o :o
The "Take out the "i", "Me" comedy skit got deleted. That was a classic one. :D ;D
I had people lining up to read it cause they did not believe it was really ever posted......whimper....now like the big-foot hoax it will become legend. tsk........tsk....... ;)
green eggs and ham
Rodger
Ps upset me.....lol by far you made my week...... :D ;D :D " take the " i " and " me " out of yadda yadda yadda....." a classic. ;D :D
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feat.... I liked and appreciated your quote for what it was worth straight forward and saw no heresy. I too am interested in Arc's point on this matter.
I almost (but not quite ;D) am hesitant to not share the following piece of someone else's work that I RELATE TO.... and think speaks well for me... and I am now counting down the timing to perhaps it being called heresy as well>> :o
From the chaperter/section on "The Church in the New Testament."
"... The flesh cleaves to the Bible and prides itself on being biblical. The flesh likes to show a radically biblical face and by its exclusiveness is able to impress and win approval. But God never identifies Himself with anything coming from the flesh, no matter how biblical it is. [May I, Janice, personally add, and it is of no matter if it comes from L. Ray Smith either.] This is critically important when we begin to address ourselves to restoring the New Testament witness of Christ and His church."
I tend to agree with him.
feat, I also tend to agree with you. :)
With love, Janice
Keep your LAMP LIT.
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roger why are you acting to ugly how old are you? weather you are right or wrong I do not care quit acting like a brat. Just accept if some one disagree's with you so waht not the end of your world and God works these situations out what are you accomblishing by your words personelly it discredits you by your smart mouth and what you said is gone because of your ugliness. Just stop its alright if other people have a bad day too or what ever Even if that other person did rejected what you said he isn;t God and either are you just relax its okay, Peggy
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M G thank for sharing I fee now something is being said that I might beable to learn from I did appreciate the comfort and love from all that shared but M G is saying something here I need to understand better.What you suffer did what to make you say it was good for me to go through this. what happen to make you say this what really happen? please don't tell me a patent answer reach inside thank you please understand I just need to know In Jesus peggy
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This is probably one of the most misunderstood, and difficult things to understand in all of Christendom (did I say that last word right?)
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
5"And whoever welcomes a little child like this in my name welcomes me. 6But if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a large millstone hung around his neck and to be drowned in the depths of the sea.
12"What do you think? If a man owns a hundred sheep, and one of them wanders away, will he not leave the ninety-nine on the hills and go to look for the one that wandered off? 13And if he finds it, I tell you the truth, he is happier about that one sheep than about the ninety-nine that did not wander off. 14In the same way your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost.
God is love. When he is compared to a father, and how much better a father than us (giving good gifts,etc.) I have a hard time with Him causing pain and suffering. I would not torture her to teach her a lesson. I would discipline her, but in context of the situation. To me it's like hell....it doesn't fit. Call me crazy, and it's 3 in the morning....
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Feat
Here is the article you posted and challenge me with. I am sure Ray could do a MUCH better job of dissecting its mellifluous mush and exposing and expelling the dogma and false posturing that is so transparent in the except. I have kept the excerpt in green as you originally posted for ease of reference for others who are visiting this discussion.
The science of theology is full of theories
Doesn't waste much time! Straight for the jugular! When did theology become a SCIENCE? When did SCIENCE become full of THEORIES? This is complete square circles. Can anyone see the nonsense yet?
THEORIES….
Just what is a theory? A theory is a speculation. It is conjecture without knowing the complete facts. It is a tentative generalization of which the validity has to still be proved…like reincarnation, the Trinity, Tithing, Free Will, evolution etc…These are ALL theories based on half truths, incomplete facts and generalizations wining popular approval and a multitude of followers.
....the fullness of these theories explain the wonders of the soul according to its capacity.
Well maybe this is correct for those souls who embrace error and fiction but it is not accurate in alluding to MY SOUL and neither is it accurate regarding Paul's soul or Timothy's soul, or the souls of the like minded with Christ who know and understand that scoffers, mockers will come in the last days with scoffing, false and cunning arguments who beguile and lure, misinterpret and twist and misconstrue the Word of God.
One may be conversant with all these speculations, speak and write
about them admirably, instruct others and guide souls;
and guide souls….AND GUIDE SOULS…who guides souls? The ones conversant with speculations? Do they guide souls? Who is guiding your soul. The teachings of Christ or the irreverent babble and godless chatter of vain and empty and worldly phrases and subtleties and contradictions in what is falsely called knowledge and spiritual illumination. 1 Tim 6:20
...yet, if these theories are only in the mind,
IF...IF these theories are only in the mind...OF COURSE THEORIES ARE ONLY IN THE BLIND MIND...a theory by definition IS ONLY IN THE MIND BECAUSE IT IS INSUFFICIENT, INCOMPLETE AND YET TO BE PROVED. So YES, those who sport with such theories and conjecture are indeed as ones compared to those without knowledge not of theories but of God and His Christ who is the way the Truth and the Life. But, NOTICE, THIS IS NOT what the author says. Read it carefully. The author says that the ones conversant with speculations, speak and write about them admirably, instruct others and guide souls but THEY ARE without any knowledge of what they speak about…NOW WHY DOES THE AUTHOR MAKE THIS CONNECTION? Which is true by the way but not for the reason given! Here is the clincher…HERE IS THE REASON....
because they have not received the meaning of the designs of God. They do not do Gods will…
HELLO. Huston I think we have a problem!…THEY do not do God's Will AND FOR THAT REASON
they are as sick physicians compared to simple people in perfect health.
Here is the Plan of God. That we ALL GO AGAINST HIS WILL FOR NON...NON ARE PERFECT EXCEPT CHRIST. So lets be more direct..….fasten your seat belt…
the faithful soul, the simplicity producing this divine state…
What produces divine state? SIMPLICITY? What a foolish notion! What a lie! GRACE is the DIVINE ACTION ON OUR HEARTS THAT COMES FROM GOD! This divine truth was revealed via Ray Smith in one of his audios. Kat no doubt will have the details at her finger tips for those interested to persue this study and access this teaching.
By GRACE we are saved by faith...that faith that is Christs gift,domain and authority. The Divine state is Christ who is NOT
the unknowing simpleton who neither knows nor wishes to know anything about medicine.
Now we are getting into nothing short of blasphemy! Anyone still want to go with this heresy? Anyone still advocating the excerpt has any truth in it?
Jesus Christ IS THE MEDICINE.
The designs of God and his divine will accepted by a faithful soul
with simplicity produces this divine state in it without its knowledge, just
as a medicine taken obediently will produce health, although the sick person
neither knows nor wishes to know anything about medicine.
What a sick and depraved conclusion based on error with no support of the Truth of Gods word or the power of Gods Sovereignty!
ABANDONMENT TO DIVINE PROVIDENCE
- by Jean Pierre de Caussade, S.J.
In just few words THEORY by Jean Pierre de Caussade SJ captures a VAST SWAMP OF QUICK SAND AND CORRUPT mellifluous mush.
Mellifluous – sounds or utterances smooth or honeyed sweet.
Mush – cloying sentimentality
Cloy – to make weary or cause weariness through an excess of something sweet. a) to nail from Medieval Latin – a nail. b) to obstruct.
Theory is a tentative generalization of which the validity has to be proved. Such examples as the writing of Jean Pierre de Caussade, S.J. are straw ideas written to gain approval by default and a following by high sounding ideology that lacks in wisdom, knowledge and love for the Words of God. It is a tentative man made fiction.
Tentative – provisional, experimental, conjectural, uncertain
Generalize – to change from a localized infection or condition to a systemic one.
Systemic – of a poison, disease affecting the entire body.
That excerpt, to be more direct, is poison, wearisome conjecture.
Conjecture – the formation of conclusions from incomplete evidence; guess
I notice Feat that you falsely accuse me of posturing which by the way is a false or affected attitude more properly attributed to your author of that septic tank of lies and deceits. For your information my attitude, that is an indication of my view or disposition especially as it indicated allegiance, is neither false, or artificial to impress others.
Your transparent challenge that I attempt to respond as Ray can I should take that as a compliment as Christ has made Ray a unique, precious vessel of honour, truths and revelations of which I find NON from your teacher the Jesuit who perfects posturing with an infection of bad ideas, false teaching, heresy and blasphemy against the Truths and Teachers of Christ.
Janice you observe that : [May I, Janice, personally add, and it is of no matter if it comes from L. Ray Smith either.] This is critically important when we begin to address ourselves to restoring the New Testament witness of Christ and His church."
That is a false teaching that WE are restoring the New Testament witness of Christ and His Church. It is the Spirit of Christ who is the witness not us!
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, Whom the Father will send in MY NAME (Ref to Ray Smiths teachings to discover what My Name means) He shall teach you all things and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I HAVE SAID TO YOU. (That being whatsoever CHRIST HAS SAID and not what Jesuit…what’s his name said or says or believes or postures.)
Your comment about Ray Smith is off cue Janice, and you should be warned that 24. ANYONE (no respect or of persons here...or for false teachers, heresy or blasphemy or agreements with such…..or agreements or agendas to make feel good sweet mush the replacement theory for Christ’s Spirit of TRUTH) who does not really love ME, does not OBSERVE AND OBEY MY TEAHCHING. And the teaching which you hear and heed is NOT MINE ( but is the worldly wisdom of heretics and false prophets and blind guides) but from the Father Who sent Me.
Ray Smith teaches Christ’s Mind through the Spirit of Christ that reveals the Mind, Spirit and Truth of Christ. Christ HIMSELF has given Ray Smith as a Teacher to US.
Eph 4 : 10 HE Who descended is the very same as He Who also has ascended high above the heavens, that He might fill all things. 11. And HIS gifts, He Himself appointed and gave men to US, some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and TEACHERS.
These are GIFTS to US. Be cautioned. Don’t look the gift horse in the mouth!
I see one point you make in your post Rodger. You very astutely use the term ffertilizer to describe GAFF but then again fertilizer is manure used to increase productivity. Good one Rodger! We need less false teaching and more truth to grow productively into the image and likeness of Christ. Ray is an exemplary example!
Peggy
You call my friend Rodger ugly, a brat, a smart mouth and then you tell him to relax its okay!
Such hostile persecution wins more rewards for Rodger in heaven! So go ahead. Gnash your teeth or STOP IMMEDIATELY and review what and who you are accusing!
Incidentally Feat,
Ray also gets sludge served up to him to dissect for truth and he says he has got better things to do. So, I would like to imitate my teacher. So for the record let it be known that I prefer to shut my mind against and have nothing to do with trifling, ill-informed, un edifying, stupid controversies over ignorant questionings as they foster only strife and cultivate and breed quarrels. 2 Tim 2:23
Hope that is direct enough and that others saw some light!
Please revisit and reacquaint yourself with : http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4558.0.html and http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3614.0.html
Peace to you
Arcturus :)
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feat.... I liked and appreciated your quote for what it was worth straight forward and saw no heresy. I too am interested in Arc's point on this matter.
I almost (but not quite ;D) am hesitant to not share the following piece of someone else's work that I RELATE TO.... and think speaks well for me... and I am now counting down the timing to perhaps it being called heresy as well>> :o
From the chaperter/section on "The Church in the New Testament."
"... The flesh cleaves to the Bible and prides itself on being biblical. The flesh likes to show a radically biblical face and by its exclusiveness is able to impress and win approval. But God never identifies Himself with anything coming from the flesh, no matter how biblical it is. [May I, Janice, personally add, and it is of no matter if it comes from L. Ray Smith either.] This is critically important when we begin to address ourselves to restoring the New Testament witness of Christ and His church."
I tend to agree with him.
feat, I also tend to agree with you. :)
With love, Janice
Keep your LAMP LIT.
Hi Janice,
It is not our practice to post links to teachings and/or book, CD, DVD sales.
Please do not be offended but if we were to start allowing this we would become nothing more than one more christian debate site.
I hope you understand.
His Peace to you,
Joe
From the Forum Rules; http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php?board=2.0
THIS FORUM IS NOT TO BE USED TO DEBATE RELIGIOUS TOPICS
No preaching (including preaching via links).
Links are not allowed if a site or article brings its own teaching or preaching. Links are allowed if a site it just for fun or informational, ie, you tube, google translator, Esword, etc.
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God is love. When he is compared to a father, and how much better a father than us (giving good gifts,etc.) I have a hard time with Him causing pain and suffering. I would not torture her to teach her a lesson. I would discipline her, but in context of the situation. To me it's like hell....it doesn't fit. Call me crazy, and it's 3 in the morning....
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Our purpose here is not to have our flesh satisfied and our carnal desires fulfilled, it is to lose and shed these things through the Spirit of Christ, to submit to the Father's will in faith and with trust. Please look at the examples in scripture, both in the OT and NT. If we rely on our own reasoning and feelings we will not grow spiritually.
Your example of torturing fits more in line with what the churches (throw in never ending torture to give it real weight) teach than with anything Ray has written about.
Here is an example;
Rom. 11 explains God's process is saving all Israel and all the Gentiles. It is true that there is coming judgment and chastisement on this wicked people of this world, but that chastisement and judgment is to correct them, not to torture them, and all such judgments COME TO AN END. The words "forever" and "everlasting" and "eternal" are nowhere found in the original manuscripts from which our modern language bibles have been translated. See the first ten pages of my letter to John Hagee for absolute proof of this.
God will not torture you, Liam, or ANYONE ELSE, not even Hitler or Saddam Hussein (or his two wretched sons), for all eternity. That is UNSCRIPTURAL and THAT IS INSANE! Mind you, God WILL chastise ALL OF HIS CHILDREN, and correct them to think, and do, and live, right! And sometimes times God spanks very hard, but He does not TORTURE for all ETERNITY. That is MAD! That is satanic beyond description! God is love, and He will be merciful to His creatures. Be SURE you real all of the installments in my paper on "The lake of fire" that appears on my site in monthly installments.
Please read the articles.....
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
http://bible-truths.com/lake6.html
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Joe
I believe these following verses from 2 Peter 1:2-4 speak to what you just posted and to MG's testimony. It is through the deep, intimate knowledge of God that we are able to realize what evil and good in this age really are and then give us the ability to overcome or rise above what the world through its lustful knowledge thinks what are good and evil.
It is knowing God and His plan for us that we will receive peace in any situation.
2Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: {to: or, by}
4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
We really are to count it all joy. And when that old man in us is completely dead and gone, that new man in us will jump for joy and rejoice. Be strong, courageous, patient, and wait on the Lord.
Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
CIY
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Rodger, I post the following in an edifying way out of love for the Truth.
What"s this ! What is this !! :o :o
The "Take out the "i", "Me" comedy skit got deleted. That was a classic one. :D ;D
I had people lining up to read it cause they did not believe it was really ever posted......whimper....now like the big-foot hoax it will become legend. tsk........tsk....... ;)
green eggs and ham
Rodger
Ps upset me.....lol by far you made my week...... :D ;D :D " take the " i " and " me " out of yadda yadda yadda....." a classic. ;D :D
Actually, Rodger, I am saddened that I have made your day out of a sincere post. :(
I wrote in an edifyling manner the following (so that there can be no confusion)
Hi Rodger, :)
I sure am glad God reads hearts and knows mine. ::)
Clearly I have upset you and that was never my intention.
Rom 14:19 Trust Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
Love in Christ
Darren
Yet, you laugh, laud and ridcule me. It is I who am being persecuted for the truth, by you.
I can't help wonder who of Christs disciples spoke like you did and so enjoy doing. Was it Peter, Nah! how abour Andrew or Luke? Not likely, not even Judas spoke in this way. Oh must have been Paul, or was it Timothy? Funny how there is no mention of it. But you feel that you are justified to mock and ridcule, yet you totally ignored and laughed at the Scripture I posted.
Rom 14:19 Trust Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and things wherewith one may edify another.
I would ask you, no implore you to remember one thing before you again type a single letter in a harsh response. Not one person is here of their own violation, but rather by the dragging of God. Are we all not brothers and sisters?
All of this, mocking and laughter and hysterics, (who are you feeding) because I simple suggested that you were WRONG in your statement that God answers a plea or prayer for understanding, as in: "Please God help me understand, why all the suffering" with a BECAUSE YOU ARE AND I AM.
I have never heard anything so spiritually untrue in all my years in this forum.
And here is my SPIRITUAL WITNESS, Christ himself.
Mat 7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
Mar 6:23 And he sware unto her, Whatsoever thou shalt ask of me, I will give [it] thee, unto the half of my kingdom.
Luk 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and [that] your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Jhn 16:23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give [it] you.
NEVER ONCE DOES IT MENTION: "Because you are and I AM" Why? Could it be because it is SPIRITUALLY untrue!
I have seen nothing edifying or uplifting in your responses to me. You attacked me personally, well you tried, but actually you attacked the Spirit of God. Rodger, when you let go and trust God completely and utterly, the "I" fades to NOTHING. Who am I, if God is within me.
Paul explains this very well.
Gal 2:20I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
I post the following for your consideration
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Please look very deep in side your heart and see if anything I have posted is untrue.
Love to you always in Christ,
Darren
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This thread has been an interesting and informative (in more ways than a first read may indicate) but alas it is time to move on, the topic of "Suffering" has been covered thoroughly and is splintering into 4 or 5 threads simultaneously under one title.
If you desire to start other threads more specific to the topic of interest you are now persuing in this one please feel free to do so.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe