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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: lilitalienboi16 on September 26, 2007, 06:28:06 PM
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Alright everyone, i caught a glimpse of what ray has to say about the ressurection and all the confusion about is there 2 ressurections, how are we raised etc... Let me shed some light on what i heard.
If memory serves me right, in either the 'How much is all' or the 'biblical dates and chronology' audio's, i believe i heard ray briefly say that something along the lines of 'only the elect are raised spiritual bodies, the rest are raised in physical bodies.'
Now if i heard correctly, which i am open to mis interpreting or hearing, i believe i finaly understand where ray is comeing from on this thinking.
The other night, it just hit me as i was pondering what ray had said, because i have been confused for quiet some time about all this.
Now bare with me as i try and explain where i believe ray has gotten this understanding from. I have very little support for this but i believe ray has much more in his pocket then i can muster up. So here it is.
Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
We also have this statement;
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Okay so how do we know that the rest of the world is not raised in spiritual bodies? Well because they did not die in Christ's likeness. We also that;
Hebrews 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
However we know that this is not speaking of phsyical death because;
1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
So we know that this death that men must experience is not a physical one, now check this out;
Revelation 20:12 "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."
We know that these people are not standing in spiritual bodies BECAUSE they are DEAD and the PHYICALLY DEAD DO NOT STAND. What is this verse saying? They are SPIRITUAL DEAD standing in physical bodies. So how can they be raised in SPIRITUAL BODIES? They can't! Why? Because THE SPIRIT GIVES LIFE! They would be LIVING.
Romans 8:10 "And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness."
Okay i hope that made sence, this was tough to put into words, but i hope that i'm not to far off with what ray has comeing for us. I think God showed me this, and maybe i am wrong, but i thought i would share. Please let me know what you think, and if i am wrong about ray said then please forgive me! I'm not trying to preach or teach anything false, it's just what came to me, so please if i am in error i ask your forgivness and patience.
Edit: The only thing i would say is alittle bit confusing in all this, and it does make sence but it's the verse i quoted above;
1 Corinthians 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
We are told the 'it' which is the 'natural body' is raised a spiritual body. So how come the rest of the world is not raised like this, it would seem to be a contradiction. Notice i did say seem. Perhaps this is mistranslated, i have not looked into it, or perhaps it's just that this was speaking of Christ and the elect only? I'm not sure... but either way, i think when ray finaly spills the beans its gonna be some good stuff. Just some food for thought for now. Anyone think they got any ideas on this verse here and how it ties into all this?
God be with you all,
Alex
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You bring up an interesting topic Alex.
I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.
We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.
There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.
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Hi Alex,
1Co 15:44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
We can understand who Paul is talking about at the beginning of this chapter.
1Co 15:1 Moreover, brethren, I make known unto you the joyful message, which I myself announced to you, which also ye received, in which also ye stand;
v. 2 Through which also ye are being saved,(Rotherham)
It say brethren and refers to those that are "being saved" or doesn't that mean begotten.
Ray made a statement in a resent email like you were talking about.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5547.0.html
COMMENT: Actually I have NEVER written about "the second death" as yet, and I have never said that when someone dies that they, "are no more." When a person dies they are not conscious, and their body decays, and their spirit returns to God, but there is no consciousness IN THE SPIRIT. It is the spirit that gives LIFE TO THE BODY, and so without a living body, there is no consciousness. Jesus will save them by bringing them back to life through RESURRECTION. The righteous believers will be resurrected with glorified spiritual bodies, and the wicked unbelievers with physical bodies to face Judgment. It is in Judgment that the wicked will be ultimately saved.
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It does make you wonder why God would raise sinful people to glorified spirit bodies, to enter His heaven before they have been purified.
It is now in this physical human form that the elect are being judged and I can see how the process of being conformed to the image of Christ would be some what the some for the rest of humanity. It is through the sufferings of the flesh that we learn so many lessons.
Interesting topic, just thought I would give a little imput :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Thank you kat and joe, you both make great points.
I'm so glad that i wasn't hearing things when i heard what i thought i heard about the resurection of the wicked and those that are not being saved.
What you posted kat, certainly sheds light on who that verse is reffering to. I really appreciate it, all the pieces are coming together!
I can't wait for ray to talk about this.
Thanks and God bless,
Alex
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Greetings Alex,
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
I'm not sure I can agree with you here, but I am open to correction. Here's why:
John 20:17 NKJV, "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
Jesus did many miracles here in the flesh. He "passed" through the masses at the temple when they wanted to either stone him or throw him off a cliff. He walked on water. He broke bread and fish and fed the multitudes. To assume he couldn't walk through a wall may be wrong. I've heard it said that the reason many didn't recognize him after his resurrection was precicely because he was still in his fleshly form (which would look very different after having been beaten, beard ripped out and thorns cramed on his head, etc.) I don't know for sure. But, when I read that Mary wanted to cling to him, (after recognizing his voice) and he told her not to, I ask why? Perhaps because it is a lesson to us not to cling to this world, this flesh, but that we need to realize God is spirit (to which Jesus would later ascend in Acts 1:9), as we will become. I don't know if we'll have a physical tangible body, as the flesh profits nothing. But I do know that we can "feel" pain in a limb that doesn't exist (medical phenomenom called "phantom pain") and that there are lots of things our natural mind has yet to comprehend. As for the dead standing, well they could have been lying and in that verse they are made to stand. Like I said, I don't know foresure, but am just throwing out some questions to further contemplate. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to promote some deeper thought. Hopefully I'm edifying and not tearing down?? I look forward to the replies.
Love in Christ,
G.
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Hi Gregor,
Here are a few email that address the things you referred to.
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3213.0.html -------
Jesus Christ was the Firstfruits of those Who Slept. He became a physical man. He died, and just like all who die, Jesus awaited resurrection. His came sooner than ours. In the resurrection of God's Elect, they are raised with a "spiritual body" (I Cor. 15:43-44). Therefore Jesus was resurrected with a "spiritual body." He manifested Himself in His physical body so that Thomas would know for sure it was Jesus. He also manifested Himself as the Gardner to Mary. He manifested Himself as yet a different person to the two men walking to Emmaus. And he manifested Himself as yet another person when He met His disciples on the shore. Jesus will not go through eternity living in a corruptible physical body full of holes. What, pray tell, does it matter WHERE His physical body "went?" Will it maybe be displayed in a heavenly museum in a jar of formaldehyde? I don't mean to make light of your question, but I can't help it--it's the way I am when it comes to thing s like this. And my last reader asked me to "go easy" on those who have been lead astray. What can I say: failed again! But I do hope that what I have said is helpful.
God be with you,
Ray
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,840.0.html ----------------------------
Dear William:
A friend asked me about this just a couple of weeks ago. The Father resides in "the heavens." The heavens are a realm, not a geographical location.
Jesus did not say "touch me not," as we have proof to the contrary in this very same incident recorded in Matt. 28:9-10:
"And as they went to tell His disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And the came and HELD HIM BY THE FEET [clearly they WERE 'touching' Him], and worshipped Him."
The first definition of the Greek word 'haptomia' is "to ATTACH oneself." As we clearly see in their "Holding Him by the feet." Rotherham translates this: "...be not DETAINING me..." James Moffatt translates it: "Cease CLINING to Me." The American Standard Version has: "Stop HOLDING ON to Me..."
Apparently, Jesus was resurrected just moments before the women arrived at the tomb. When they finally recognized Him as Lord, they GRABBED HIM and wouldn't let Him go--worshipping (as He was clearly resurrected from the dead, hence, truly, the Son of God).
The thing that Jesus told His disciples a couple of days earlier was that He must RETURN to His Father. And the reason was two-fold: [1] To receive BACK the glory which He had with His Father from the beginning, and [2] He told them that unless He "went away (to the father) the Comforter would not come to them.
Jesus appeared three time to His disciples within the first 12 hours: [1] To the women at the tomb, {2] To the two men traveling on the road to Emaus, and [3] Sunday evening when the disciples (save Thomas) where gathered together behind closed doors. At that very time, Jesus gave his Apostles (not His all of His disciples, but His APOSTLES) the Holy Spirit:
"Then the same day at evening being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut...He said unto them Peace be unto you: as My Father has sent Me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed OLN THEM, AND SAID UNTO THEM, receive ye the holy spirit..but Thomas was not with them" (John 20:19-24).
Talk to you later, Lary,
Ray
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I have never been able to spiritualize Ezekiel 37...Maybe now I know why.
Mark
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Greetings Alex,
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's ressurection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
I'm not sure I can agree with you here, but I am open to correction. Here's why:
John 20:17 NKJV, "Jesus said to her, "Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, 'I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.'"
Jesus did many miracles here in the flesh. He "passed" through the masses at the temple when they wanted to either stone him or throw him off a cliff. He walked on water. He broke bread and fish and fed the multitudes. To assume he couldn't walk through a wall may be wrong. I've heard it said that the reason many didn't recognize him after his resurrection was precicely because he was still in his fleshly form (which would look very different after having been beaten, beard ripped out and thorns cramed on his head, etc.) I don't know for sure. But, when I read that Mary wanted to cling to him, (after recognizing his voice) and he told her not to, I ask why? Perhaps because it is a lesson to us not to cling to this world, this flesh, but that we need to realize God is spirit (to which Jesus would later ascend in Acts 1:9), as we will become. I don't know if we'll have a physical tangible body, as the flesh profits nothing. But I do know that we can "feel" pain in a limb that doesn't exist (medical phenomenom called "phantom pain") and that there are lots of things our natural mind has yet to comprehend. As for the dead standing, well they could have been lying and in that verse they are made to stand. Like I said, I don't know foresure, but am just throwing out some questions to further contemplate. I'm not trying to rain on your parade, just trying to promote some deeper thought. Hopefully I'm edifying and not tearing down?? I look forward to the replies.
Love in Christ,
G.
I just typed up this long responce gregor, and then realized that someone else had just gone and quoted what ray said. That works perfectly fine. I used pretty much the same scriptures ray used to show that Christ took on many different forms and not just that He was physicaly resurrected but not recognized because His body was badly mared and decayed.
God be with you,
Alex
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You bring up an interesting topic Alex.
I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.
We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.
There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.
Man, all this is fantastic stuff - really deep! I have never wanted to study scripture so much in my life. Which is why I need to kick back a little and not spend so much time on the forum for now, read scripture, spend more time with God, and study more of Ray's teachings. Frankly, I've been really frustrated lately, seems my initial excitement has turned into confusion, so I hope you all don't mind if I step aside a little, and get things clarified with my Lord.
You will hear from me. Keep me in your prayers!!
ciao!
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Hi javajoe,
We all need to do this from time to time.
I will be here posting and reading at a frenetic pace then just come skidding to a stop feeling the need to contemplate and meditate on the Lord, study His Word and the reread the articles on Bible Truths.
It is true, there is a time and a season.....
His Peace to you Brother,
Joe
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I have never been able to spiritualize Ezekiel 37...Maybe now I know why.
Mark
Ezekiel 37 is certainly very interesting, there is just to much going on in there that i do not understand unfortunately. I'm sure this is one of passages that ray will touch upon when speaking about the ressurection. Atleast i think, because this does seem to be talking about ressurection of physical bodies.
Well anyway, thanks for that reference.
God bless,
Alex
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Folks,
Lots to consider in the messages presented, especially the quotes from Ray.
I would like to try to sort out what seems evident to me and hope you will bear with me.
First comes the flesh and then the spiritual.
Messiah came in the flesh and lived perfectly and was raised immortal spirit. He was/is the first.
Since then Jesus is working with all those God has given him to perfect them and prepare them to serve in some capacity as pioneers of the coming righteous Kingdom of God on earth. These are those called, chosen and elect and not yet perfected, who will be perfected by a miracle at their resurrection to life in spiritual bodies.
In one way of thinking about it we too will die, for an instant, and be re-born as spiritual individuals.
All the rest of humanity, from Adam and Eve till the present and who knows how much longer, will be raised in the Great White Throne judgment of the 'dry bones' of Ezek 37.
This later resurrection is not due to those folks being worse sinners than are we who have been or may be the 'called, chosen and elect'. Their fate, to have been left behind and to be destined for the spiritual lake of correcting fire, is God's preordained plan for the great majority of mankind. It is no insult or slight by God for them to have been left behind. It is just the way the plan works. Some had to be pioneers and go ahead in order for the great mass of people to have a 'different way' prepared for them. Jesus, God's only begotten son had to be the unique, sinless first born, because that was the way God planned it. We who are not the first born and those who are not the first fruits after Jesus should not feel badly that God arranged a different salvation for them. I think that it had to be that way to account for all the children who died before they could have understood and been called out.
Another way to think about this plan of God's, if I have any correct thoughts at all, is that God through Jesus is working out a plan in time that allows mankind, ever since Adam, to go his own way and decide for himself what is good and what is evil. This plan allows mankind to learn from their own mistakes, guided always by God's over arching wise control, THAT they need God and CANNOT do it their way and be successful. Just consider history.
If that makes sense, then I believe that the next step in sequence is that Jesus will return, take his throne in Jerusalem, put down all forceful resistance, set up his righteous government with the elect as administrators/teachers and for some period of time allow human life to continue under his loving leadership to show them/us how wonderful life can be when righteous government is in place.
An illustration one may consider is God's week of six days (6 thousand years) for man to do his own will and then the sabbath day (1000 years) ? of rest when God's government of love is in place.
At some point in the future, I don't know when, the great white throne resurrection will take place. All those in that resurrection will be raised mortal, flesh and blood, just as they were when they died (it is appointed to all men once to die) EXCEPT they will be raised with whole bodies, completely healed of every injury or disease and continue their lives as fleshly human beings and face the judgment of loving correction.
Then when Jesus has finished his work with these folks, they will be changed, in an instant, to become like their savior and like each of us and they will see him as he is.
When this is accomplished and death is abolished, Jesus will turn the Kingdom back over to his Father and our Father and we will be one BIG HAPPY FAMILY.
Joe and Kat, please advise or comment. Thanks, Bob
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Folks,
Then when Jesus has finished his work with these folks, they will be changed, in an instant, to become like their savior and like each of us and they will see him as he is.
When this is accomplished and death is abolished, Jesus will turn the Kingdom back over to his Father and our Father and we will be one BIG HAPPY FAMILY.
Joe and Kat, please advise or comment. Thanks, Bob
The problem I personally see with this theory, is that the "changed in an instant" you don't call a resurrection (as this would imply a third resurrection), but call it a "change", even though a person in a mortal body has now become an immortal spiritual body, and death has been destroyed.
So, what about those in the first resurrection who are alive at his coming who are changed in an instant, are they not resurrected?? but just instantly "changed"??
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Folks, I know this topic is interesting and we would all like these answers, but the truth is we are spinning our wheels here.
Both lines of thought on this lead to more questions than answers. If the masses are raised in a physical body, do they all get raised at the same time? If so there will be a bunch of people roaming the earth. Are they raised the same age they died? If not will there be billions of (God forbid) 16 year olds roaming the earth. Can/will they have children? Can/will they die? etc. etc. etc.
As Joe says, even after much thought, no definitive answer is reached. Face it, the scriptures are relatively quiet on this subject. Ray, gives an opinion on this but he has said that the scripture is silent about this, so it is mostly conjecture and speculation on anyones part.
There is much more important matters to worry about now. Let's worry more about seeking the kingdom of God and less on what the kingdom of God is/will be like. Seek the Kingdom of God above all else, and live righteously, and he will give you everything you need. The scriptures are not quiet on this topic and Ray uses many, many, many scriptures to help us understand what we should be doing. So strive to become more like Christ and defeat the beast within us and then the kingdom will only be a breath away.
When I was still in the church I spent countless hours studying end time prophecy and reading everyone who had an opinion about it. I wish I would have spent more time learning what the bible really had to say about seeking the kingdom..
I know whether I am in the elect, the called or the masses of humanity, God has me where I need to be and in this life the only thing I can see we are called to do is to seek the kingdom of God, and don't worry about who gets to clean the toilets until we get there. ;)
Blessings!
Craig
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Hello Craig,
That is certainly good advice. Otherwise we end up thinking about nonsensical things like how the first resurrection is really the rapture everybody is talking about. Or how is the earth surface going to be rearranged to handle countless billions of people. Or will the blind still be so as when they died. Or will cancer be cured. Or will...... ;)
...and yet it is still such an intriguing topic. Wow massive reincarnation into the same bodies. I have to get busy reading and reflecting.
be blessed everyone
feat
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Ok no speculation, but here's a few statistics to think about. Most I got from from Wikipedia.
About 70.8% of the surface is covered by water, the remaining 29.2% not covered by water consists of mountains, deserts, plains, plateaus, and other geomorphologies.
It is estimated that only one eighth of the surface of the Earth is suitable for humans to live on — three-quarters is covered by oceans, and half of the land area is desert (14%), high mountains (27%), or other less suitable terrain.
Currently the total arable land is 13.31% of the land surface, with only 4.71% supporting permanent crops. Close to 40% of the Earth's land surface is presently used for cropland and pasture, or an estimated 1.3% of cropland and 3.4% of pastureland.
In September, 2007, the world's population had reached over 6.7 billion.
By the year 2011 it is expected to be 7 billion.
A 2003 estimate is that over 106 billion people have ever lived on earth.
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The Lord will return and rule the nations.
Isa 34:1 Draw near, O nations, to hear; and listen, O peoples! Let the earth and all it contains hear, and the world and all that springs from it.
Isa 34:2 For the LORD'S indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter.
Is this speaking of the new earth?
Isa 35:1 The wilderness and the desert shall be glad for them; and the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the crocus.
Isa 35:2 It shall blossom abundantly, and rejoice even with joy and singing; the glory of Lebanon shall be given to it, the honor of Carmel and Sharon, they shall see the glory of Jehovah and the majesty of our God.
Just a few scripture to think about :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hey Guys,
Just a thought...maybe God will somehow make all the other planets in the universe inhabitable and the elect will each get their own planet to "rule"....maybe that's what all those empty planets are for....waiting to be inhabited by all the people that have ever lived.....who knows....
Peace,
Diana
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Just a few scriptures to consider.
Ezekiel 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord God; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
verse 10 So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
verse 11 Then he said unto me, Son man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.
verse 12 Therefore prophesy and say unto them. Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
verse 13 And ye shall know that I am the Lord, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
verse 14 And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the Lord have spoken it and performed it, saith the Lord.
Psalm 104: 30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
verse 31 The glory of the Lord shall endure for ever: the Lord shall rejoice in his works.
verse 32 He looketh on the earth, and it trembleth: he toucheth the hills, and they smoke.
verse 33 I will sing unto the Lord as long as I live: I will sing praise to my God while I have my being.
verse 34 My meditation of him shall be sweet: I will be glad in the Lord.
verse 35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more, Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord.
It sounds like we will live here on the earth with a physical body and a spiritual mind. At least thats what it sounds like.
Peace and Love
Iris
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Ray, gives an opinion on this but he has said that the scripture is silent about this, so it is mostly conjecture and speculation on anyones part.
I agree with you Craig that all of this "raised in physical bodies" stuff is all conjecture. I personally don't believe it at all (this is just my present opinion which may or may not be altered in the future)...
However, Ray seems to be quite dogmatic on this as he did not state that this was his "opinion". His language certainly made it look quite dogmatic. I hope he backs this up some day soon with scripture, cause this statement of his actually bothered me quite a bit.
Cheers,
Jeremy
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These discussions must be very much like those the Apostles had among themselves while pondering the words of Lord Messiah and trying to make sense of them.
Paul and Peter have written much on this topic. But in a way that is not readily apparent.
The "gems" and "sacred secrets" they have written about which shed light on this topic are hard to understand and in fact are totally incomprehensible when we attempt to rely on our own abilities. Thankfully, for our Father all things are possible and with the help of the "helper" we can obtain understanding.
But, only those who "work" are able to "eat" - and that is what is so frustrating for us today. We've been so conditioned and brainwashed by our modern society to desire "instant" answers and "right-now" pleasures that we tend to easily give up on the "work" of digging for our "food."
Lord Messiah has promised us that if we persist in looking and digging we will assuredly find what we are looking for. But not on our expectations or timetable.
These discussions are not fruitless even though they do not lead to immediate understanding. They are most excellent exercise for our hearts and minds as we try to remember what we've learned.
In all that has been said thus far I would tend to believe that IndianaBob has most accurately portrayed what Ray has revealed in his understanding.
However, remember what was said in the word about who has come from Heaven and who will go to heaven. Not all.
Think about why John the Baptist was not an apostle but fulfilled another prophetic function that has very much to do with us. And the earlier story of Job provides a glimpse.
Think about why there were so few apostles that were given to Lord Messiah by the Father, and why they were so "special."
Think about why both Paul and Peter and John spoke certain messages to only the "elect" or "chosen ones" and they and James provide some insight as to who they truly are.
Above all, do not lose hope - in time you'll "get it!"
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Good evening Word Student and welcome to the forum. :)
I don't recall reading your name before.
Have you read Bible Truths for several months?
I'm sure we all would like to get to know you better.
Please share as much as is comfortable for you.
I especially liked your comment about our needing to dig for spiritual food.
I often wonder how and when in our lives that this give and take with Jesus began. I imagine it was long before we realized the fact.
I understand that God provides the initial impetus for our interest and then we, with God's continual encouragement and prodding, seek more and more of His truth through the indwelling spirit of our Lord Jesus. What a marvelous challenge and opportunity we have been given.
Thank you for your message and please write often.
Bob
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Hi!
I appreciate your post, especially
These discussions are not fruitless even though they do not lead to immediate understanding. They are most excellent exercise for our hearts and minds as we try to remember what we've learned.
R.I.G.H.T.O. B.I.G.T.I.M.E. :D [Only in HIS TIME ;)]
And WELCOME to the BT forum,
Janice
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Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Notice this doesn't give a location. This tells how we shall be, correct?
How was He raised a spiritual body? I thought spirit couldn't be seen. I realize:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
When? Notice this:
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I may be on the wrong track, but as far as the resurrection of the dead, this says:
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Either way, this doesn't seem to separate any people from all being resurrected differently at the resurrection. Actually, it proves that people MUST die in order to be resurrected. We know some are appointed to life when others are appointed to chastisement, but if they were resurrected in physical bodies, would they not need to be punished in physical fire like most Christian Doctrine suggests?
your friend,
-Beau
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Hi Beau,
I'm sure of one thing, Christendom teaches these will be tortured forever and ever. And the scriptures teach us that Christ's Rule only lasts for an age [aion].
Then [cometh] the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.[Cor 15-24]
This verse speaks nothing of a "eternal" chastisment, but rather a age which Christ rules.
What did Paul mean when he said "Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"
Obviously "Sleep" is death. But what is changed, if we are raised back to a physical body, what changed?, Or does this verse speak only of those chosen?
I dunno.
Chris R
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Hi Chris,
Um... I don't want to sound rude, but what you wrote has almost nothing to do with what I stated. Your reply is covered in a lot of Ray's papers. Besides, "eternal" has nothing to do with time anyway. If the chastisement itself is spiritual, then why would they need physical bodies? We have to remember 1 Cor. 2:13.
What I was referring to was that it was said(not sure by who at this point) that only the elect will be resurrected in spiritual bodies while everyone else will be resurrected in physical bodies. If there's scripture on at least that much, I'd most appreciate seeing it. Anyway, I hope there's no confusion.
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Hi Beau,
Ray has made the comment in an email that the wick with be raised with a physical body to face judgment.
I think the judgment will be such that they will have to learn to live righteous lives, while still physical first, before going on the receive a spiritual glorified body.
Isa 26:9 With my soul I have desired You in the night,
Yes, by my spirit within me I will seek You early;
For when Your judgments are in the earth,
The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Here is the email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5547.0.html -------
COMMENT: Actually I have NEVER written about "the second death" as yet, and I have never said that when someone dies that they, "are no more." When a person dies they are not conscious, and their body decays, and their spirit returns to God, but there is no consciousness IN THE SPIRIT. It is the spirit that gives LIFE TO THE BODY, and so without a living body, there is no consciousness. Jesus will save them by bringing them back to life through RESURRECTION. The righteous believers will be resurrected with glorified spiritual bodies, and the wicked unbelievers with physical bodies to face Judgment. It is in Judgment that the wicked will be ultimately saved.
------------------------------------------------------------------
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Notice this doesn't give a location. This tells how we shall be, correct?
How was He raised a spiritual body? I thought spirit couldn't be seen. I realize:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
When? Notice this:
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I may be on the wrong track, but as far as the resurrection of the dead, this says:
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Either way, this doesn't seem to separate any people from all being resurrected differently at the resurrection. Actually, it proves that people MUST die in order to be resurrected. We know some are appointed to life when others are appointed to chastisement, but if they were resurrected in physical bodies, would they not need to be punished in physical fire like most Christian Doctrine suggests?
your friend,
-Beau
Hello beau, thank you for your reply.
Spirit is invisible you are correct. Yet spirit is powerful and invisible like the wind. Spirit can take my forms. God who is spirit, appeared as a burning bush in the old testement to moses, he appeared as a pillar of fire in the night sky. He has appeared in many forms, and this time, Christ took His spiritual body and used that power to make Himself visible to those around Him, for there benefit. He was not ressurected in the carnal fleshy body that He died in, but rather a spiritual body that could take whatever form He pleased.
I also disagree with your last statement as well, because i live in a physical body right now, and am being judged and being baptized in fire but that doesn't mean God is literaly sticking me in a fire pit of some sort to teach me lessons, or that He is raining down physical fire and brimstone upon my head to teach me. That sounds almost rediculous. Of what good would it be to physicaly harm us?
But you see, God is like fire in certain ways. His judgements are likened to fire because of what fire can do, and not because he will actualy use literal fire.
Not sure if that helps you at all.
God bless,
Alex
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Paul states this;
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
We know those that are with Christ are the 'overcomers' those that are called, chosen and faithful to the end.
Revelation 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
So those raised in the likeness of Christ's resurrection are those that are with Him. How was Christ raised? A spiritual body. How do we know? well we know that He appeared in many different forms which would only be possible had He been a spiritual being ABLE TO take any form He pleases, even the one of His body that had been crucified.
Romans 6:5 "For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Notice this doesn't give a location. This tells how we shall be, correct?
How was He raised a spiritual body? I thought spirit couldn't be seen. I realize:
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
When? Notice this:
John 20:17
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
1 Corinthians 2:13
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
I may be on the wrong track, but as far as the resurrection of the dead, this says:
1 Corinthians 15:35-36
35) But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36) Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
Either way, this doesn't seem to separate any people from all being resurrected differently at the resurrection. Actually, it proves that people MUST die in order to be resurrected. We know some are appointed to life when others are appointed to chastisement, but if they were resurrected in physical bodies, would they not need to be punished in physical fire like most Christian Doctrine suggests?
your friend,
-Beau
Hello beau, thank you for your reply.
Spirit is invisible you are correct. Yet spirit is powerful and invisible like the wind. Spirit can take my forms. God who is spirit, appeared as a burning bush in the old testement to moses, he appeared as a pillar of fire in the night sky. He has appeared in many forms, and this time, Christ took His spiritual body and used that power to make Himself visible to those around Him, for there benefit. He was not ressurected in the carnal fleshy body that He died in, but rather a spiritual body that could take whatever form He pleased.
I also disagree with your last statement as well, because i live in a physical body right now, and am being judged and being baptized in fire but that doesn't mean God is literaly sticking me in a fire pit of some sort to teach me lessons, or that He is raining down physical fire and brimstone upon my head to teach me. That sounds almost rediculous. Of what good would it be to physicaly harm us?
But you see, God is like fire in certain ways. His judgements are likened to fire because of what fire can do, and not because he will actualy use literal fire.
Not sure if that helps you at all.
God bless,
Alex
I understand what fire represents. I want to know WHY anyone would need physical bodies and WHERE the scripture is to support the idea.
you say:
Christ took His spiritual body and used that power to make Himself visible to those around Him, for there benefit. He was not ressurected in the carnal fleshy body that He died in, but rather a spiritual body that could take whatever form He pleased.
Jesus said:
Luke 24
37)But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38 )And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39)Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40)And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41)And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42)And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43)And he took it, and did eat before them.
your friend,
-Beau
-
I understand what fire represents. I want to know WHY anyone would need physical bodies and WHERE the scripture is to support the idea.
Hi Beau,
I am not sure the scripture is there that definitively states the type of body that will be raised, but in either case the fire is not literal, physical fire, it is a spiritual purifying process.
We know that everything Christ says or does has an incredible depth of meaning(s), often many layers deep, what do you suppose might be the reason for the dead being raised in His and the apostle's days. We know that these miracles showed the power given to Him from the Father, but what else? Was this also a shadow/type of the future raising of those who have yet to be spiritually saved, purified?
This was my response to Alex when he originally posted this topic;
You bring up an interesting topic Alex.
I have given thought to this from time to time and have yet to come up with a definitive answer, but I believe that perhaps a clue (type/shadow?) to this may be in the resurrection of those (such as Lazarus) who were raised from the dead during Christ's earthly ministry and also those raised by the apostles.
We know they were not raised in spiritual bodies and we know they were not raised immortal or perfect, they were just not dead anymore. We can safely assume they continued to sin, have trials, problems, tears, even judgment.
There is so much depth to the Scriptures and usually we can find multiple lessons in the verses contained within it. So maybe there is more to be gleened from these resurrections than an awesome display of the power of God grabbing the attention of those who witnessed them.
I have thought this may be a clue as to the condition of those raised but not "changed" still in a carnal condition not yet converted. Those who were raised at that time may possibly have been chosen to be of the elect and converted after Pentecost (no one was before), then, as every other overcomer at His return will then receive their spiritual bodies.
Anyway, that is my present understanding.
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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Hi Beau,
When Jesus manifested Himself to the Disciples, He would come to them in an actual physical human body, because you can not see spirit. In Luke 24 Jesus explains this in verse 39 "...for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see Me have." So if He was in Spirit form, they would not have been able to see Him, right.
The scripiture that states anyone is raised spirit is in I Cor 15, where Paul is talking to the believers about being raised in the first resurrection to immortality.
Here is the white throne judgment - the resurrection of the dead, nothing about being raised to spiritual immortality here.
Rev 20:11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away. And there was found no place for them.
v.12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
v.13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
v.14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
v.15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.
This is also the judgment in Revelation, it says that it will be on the earth, which is the dwelling place for physical humans. As heaven is the dwelling place for spirit beings.
Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel flying in mid-heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach to those dwelling on the earth, even to every nation and kindred and tongue and people,
v.7 saying with a great voice, Fear God and give glory to Him! For the hour of His judgment has come.
This is how I see it, hope it will help :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Find Ray's teaching on the following verse:
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
Ponder this a while. It is the soul that gives us our carnal knowledge and being. Those elect that are judged in this age have overcome the world, flesh, carnality, etc so they are spotless in the next age. Those who are called but not elect will enter the next age with their carnality still in tact and will have to be purged and scourged out of them in the LOF or destroyed. In other word, they will have on dirty garments and the saints will have on clean, white garments at the beginning of the next age.
I believe this holds true to Ray's teaching.
CIY
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Hello beau,
I wanted to let you know i did read your responce. I struggle to see where your point of Jesus being raised in a physical body is made clear.
I guess we will simply have to agree to disagree on this and continue praying for guidance from the Lord.
God bless,
Alex
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I really tried not to respond again (albeit not too hard apparently), but to believe anything but the scriptures is foolish. If Jesus wasn't resurrected in His body, (just like the one He died in, so we don't get confused on the matter) then where did His body Go? Did He not receive visitors to His grave? Were they not told He wasn't there? If His body was still there in the tomb, they would most likely believe He WAS still there! (the Old Testament Scriptures knew nothing of going anywhere other than Sheol when someone died.) Did His body just disappear? Don't tell me He was in a spiritual body and manifested PHYSICAL evidence of holes in His hands and side for Thomas and others to literally deceive them when it only "appeared" that it was really the same Jesus that died on the cross. I assure you, the holes in His hands, were the SAME holes made by real, physical nails. If He was in a "new" body, then there were no holes and Jesus manifested "fake" holes as proof of something that wasn't real, just to appease someone that doubted. If I were them, and someone just "manifested" fake evidence, I wouldn't believe it AFTER the claim. The Jesus that died on the cross, was the same Jesus that gave proof His resurrection, same body, same Jesus. Like I said before, where is the scripture that claims otherwise? Sorry, but I have to let the matter rest on this response as far as I'm concerned, I'm not allowed to teach in here, neither am I making that attempt, just to give truth as I know it; but this is becoming fruitless.
your friend,
-Beau
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I believe if you read the following there might be some helpful clarity gained :)
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,1199.0.html
http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3213.0.html
As another observation here is a post in the Forum from April of last year written by a guest Steve Crook who wrote the following : Quote from ref http://www.forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,240.0.html
This may seem to way out there on the scale of crazy questions, but if folks saw Christ in many different forms after he ressurreced, and they did see him according to their accounts (fisherman is good example), then why do we think Christ couldn't possibly appear today as a various person from time to time. Is, Was, and Will be.
I guess I'm saying that I don't rule it out as a possibility. However, I don't think that unless Christ revealed himself as being Christ, that anyone would know it was Christ, just as though his disciples literally walked and talked with the man and didn't even know him.
I know the new bodies we receive, if like Christ's, will have the ability to transcend material objects and shape themselves into whatever we will need them for. Pretty cool stuff, though our Father's Will will at that point be the only thng we use to do anything
It will all be great! NO more pain, suffering, bondage, etc., etc.
God bless
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Beau,
In an email to Ray, this question/statement was raised;
Physical or Spiritual?
« on: September 24, 2007, 06:59:16 AM »
I believe Jesus rose in a spiritual body because of 1st Corinthians 15 and I also believe we will rise in a spiritual body, but I am a little confused. When Jesus rose from the dead His earthly body was gone, and the disciples were able to see and touch the holes in his hands, feat, and sides.
Luke 24:39 - Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
[40] And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
[41] And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
[42] And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
[43] And he took it, and did eat before them.
Please explain this to me.
Dear Miykael:
Yes, Jesus was raised with a spiritual body, however, those who are born of the spirit are "like the wind" (John 3:08). In order for Jesus to prove that He was the same Jesus that was crucified, He had to manifest Himself in a physical manner for His disciples to see Him. He manifested Himself to the two men on the road to Emmaus in a physical body; He manifested Himself to the women in the Garden as the Gardner; He manifested Himself on the lakeside as a yet another body. Jesus was able to "appear in ANOTHER form" from His real spiritual body (Mark 16:12). And He appeared behind closed doors to his Apostles in the same body with which He was crucified (John 20:19-29).
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,5535.0.html
Could it be that Christ's physical body was transformed into a spiritual body upon resurrection? Is that not what Paul speaks of happening to those alive at the Lord's return? So why not the same with the dead?
Co 15:51 Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Here is what I believe to be the qualifier; "We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed."
1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
His Peace to you,
Joe
PS Here is the full verse Ray mentioned (Mark 16:12)
Mar 16:12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
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Could it be that Christ's physical body was transformed into a spiritual body upon resurrection? Is that not what Paul speaks of happening to those alive at the Lord's return? So why not the same with the dead?
Hi, perhaps I'm misreading you, but doesn't it say that "corruption does NOT INHERIT incorruption"? This to me is saying that our natural body does not inherit the spiritual body, but instead, we are changed FROM corruption (flesh and blood) INTO an incorruptible spiritual body.
I apologize if I read you incorrectly :)
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Could it be that Christ's physical body was transformed into a spiritual body upon resurrection? Is that not what Paul speaks of happening to those alive at the Lord's return? So why not the same with the dead?
Hi, perhaps I'm misreading you, but doesn't it say that "corruption does NOT INHERIT incorruption"? This to me is saying that our natural body does not inherit the spiritual body, but instead, we are changed FROM corruption (flesh and blood) INTO an incorruptible spiritual body.
I apologize if I read you incorrectly :)
Hi jerreye,
No need for an apology but perhaps the use of the word "transformed" is what you are questioning, are you seeing this word as a sort of metamorphosis like a catapillar changing into a butterfly?
That was not my thought or intention at all, here are all the definitions, I was thinking #'s 2 & 3, I believe you were thinking # 1;
trans·form
–verb (used with object)
1. to change in form, appearance, or structure; metamorphose.
2. to change in condition, nature, or character; convert.
3. to change into another substance; transmute.
—Synonyms transfigure. Transform, convert mean to change one thing into another. Transform suggests changing from one form, appearance, structure, or type to another:
Phi 3:21 Who shall change3345 our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
G3345
μετασχηματίζω
metaschēmatizō
met-askh-ay-mat-id'-zo
From G3326 and a derivative of G4976; to transfigure or disguise; figuratively to apply (by accommodation): - transfer, transform (self).
His Peace and Wisdom to you,
Joe
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I had another thought on this subject and it will be the last (from me) as it is doubtful anyone is going to change their opinion on this one way or the other until the "change" actually happens or we get indisputable confirmation through some future discovery of appropriate verses. ;)
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Was the natural, flesh and blood body of Jesus prostrated on the ground as this tranfiguration took place, or was the natural "changed" into the spiritual temporarily?
What will happen to the bodies of those alive at His return and they are changed, will their former bodies crumble to the earth as they take possession of their new bodies or will the old flesh and blood corruptable be "changed" into the incorruptable?
I see this like changing sand into glass, the fire applied to the sand changes it forever, the process cannot be reversed, unlike water which this same fire can change to steam or water vapor but potentially it can and does condense back into water once again.
OK, enough of this for now! :D
His Peace to you,
Joe
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All this talk about changing and/or transforming, physical or spiritual bodies makes me think of the scripture that says ALL is of God. The specks of dust our physical bodies will become, and the spiritual bodies He will someday give us are both of God. Exactly how He will do it we don't yet know. But scientist do know that matter can be changed to energy, and energy to matter, and in the subatomic world a particle is sometimes matter and sometimes energy. These discoveries of scientist are teaching us something about our God. I don't know the relationship of energy to spirit, but it does make me think!
May He give us a spirit of understanding.
Cindy :)
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Good points to ponder Cindy!
God is Spirit. Just what Spirit is I do not think we have even approached comprehending yet.
God is the creator of Matter, Energy, Space and Time from His Spirit! He is the Source of all! This is pretty amazing!
Peace be to you
Arcturus :)
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Hi Arcturus,
Yes, to think that Spirit (God) created everything in our awareness, including our conciousness, and also much we still are not aware of, is truly mind boggling. He is step by step bringing us to a greater knowledge of Him.
Science is looking for the "theory of everything" to unify all the forces they are aware of. Col 1:17 "And He is before all things and in Him all things hold together.: (NAS) Jesus Christ is the everything! Of course, He is not a theory, but the truth!
Your sister in Christ,
Cindy :)
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Jesus Christ is EVERYTHING not just a Theory! Good one Cindy! ;D
Right back to you, your sister in Christ.
Arcturus :)