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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: SteveB on June 03, 2006, 05:26:13 PM
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Its an honest question. I NEEDS an answer. What part of the Book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ is NOT for you?
Below is a portion of Rays, 'Twelve God-given Truths to understand His Word.'
Is the whole book of the revelation OF JESUS CHRIST, not for US?
Love...Steve
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TRUTH NUMBER 11
"Grace be into you, and peace, from Him which IS and which WAS, and which IS TO COME…" (Rev. 1:4).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, says the Lord, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME, THE almighty" (Rev. 1:8).
"Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME" (Rev. 4:8).
"Jesus Christ the same YESTERDAY, and TODAY, and FOR EVER" (Hebrews 13:8).
When God wants to emphasis something, He repeats it. When He really wants to emphasize something, He repeats it again. When He really, really, really wants to emphasize something, He repeats it multiple times. Let’s count the times God uses this phrase:
"Him which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME" Rev. 1:4).
"I AM alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the ENDING, which IS, and which WAS, and which IS TO COME" (Rev. 1:8).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the FIRST and the LAST" (Rev. 1:11).
"I am the FIRST and the LAST" (Rev. 1:17).
"I am He that LIVES, and WAS DEAD; and, behold, I AM ALIVE" "Rev. 1:18).
"the FIRST and the LAST, which was DEAD, and is ALIVE" (Rev. 2:8).
"Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty, which WAS, and IS, and IS TO COME" (Rev. 4:8).
"Oh Lord God Almighty, which ART, and WAS, and ARE TO COME" (Rev. 11:17).
"Thou art righteous, O Lord, which ARE, and WAS, and SHALL BE" (Rev. 16:5).
"I am Alpha and Omega, the BEGINNING and the END" (Rev. 22:13).
Let’s try reading a few verses together with this spiritual understanding of what is "spiritual," and what still, "is, was, and will be." A couple of years ago I presented the following in one of my Lake of Fire Installments:
"The [spiritual] Revelation [that is, was, and will be] of [spiritual] Jesus Christ [who is, was, and will be], which God gave unto Him, to show unto His [spiritual] servants [which are were and will be] [spiritual] things [which are, were, and will be] which must shortly come to pass; and He sent and [spiritually] signified [what is, was, and will be] by His [spiritual] angel [which is, was, and will be] unto His [spiritual] servant [which is, was, and will be] John.
Who bare [spiritual] record of [what is, was, and will be] of the [spiritual] word [which is, was, and will be] of [spiritual] God [who is, was, and will be], and of the [spiritual] testimony [which is, was, and will be] of [spiritual] Jesus Christ [Who lives, was dead, and am alive; Who is, was, and will be; the Alpha and the Omega; the beginning and the end; Who is, was, and is to come], and of all [spiritual] things [which are, were, and will be], that he [spiritually] saw [things that are, and were, and will be].
[Spiritually] Blessed is he [who is, was, and will be] that [spiritually] reads [what is, was, and will be], and they that [spiritually] hear [what is, was, and will be] the [spiritual] words of this [spiritual] prophecy [which is, was, and will be], and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).
If anyone thinks this is funny, he is laughing at God, not at me. Once one thoroughly understands this spiritual truth of what is, was, and will be, it is not necessary to read the entire Book in the way I have stated it above. Neither is it necessary to repeat the words of James when he instructs us to always be aware of the fact that "If the Lord will, we shall do this, or that" (James 4:15).
The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.
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When God wants to emphasis something, He repeats it.
I agree.
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed [is] he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
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and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).
The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.
This was posted a few months back. And agree with it. Seems as though Rays has changed his mind yet is keeping this paper teaching this Truth on his site and yet says its not true.
I'm confused.
Love...Steve
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I have some things to think about too, SteveB. I believe Ray has a lot of truth, but he isn't God and doesn't have all truth. Maybe Ray just can't see some of the contradictions in what he teaches. We are all falwed vessels, some are more flawed (me) than others.
What are the sound doctrines we are to contend for? When are we to judge a brother? How are we ever going to live together if we have to agree on everything? But, there must be some things we need to agree on? I am going back to the beginning of Matthew and read and study to Revelation and I'm begging god to help me understand what He means.
But, if Ray and Mike both believe you have to have 100% agreement in all points, then I guess sooner or later this parting of company would have taken place. Maybe Jesus has been neglected in all this and He needs to be the rightful head of his body and church.
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Believe this shibboleth, try the spirits (1Jn. 4:1) by the word of God. If someone tells you that some of the book of Revelation is not for you...and you look in Revelation and see...
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
...then you know what to believe. God's Word is the test.
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Pride lead before a fall. People need to understand what is important and what is less important.
Things everyone should agree on.
1.Jesus is the way and only ways.
2.Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died—more than that, who was raised to life—is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.
3.John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, [ Or his only begotten Son] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
4.Luke 10:27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' [ Deut. 6:5] ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' [ Lev. 19:18] "
5. the Doctrine of Jesus as in Matthew 5 and Luke 6.
6. sovranty of God.
7.The ideals of the after life are pagan, and are not found in the Bible.
1 is first, 2 to 5 are all pretty close and 6 and 7 are father down the list. There are other things that are important, but why worry about them. No one hear has fully grasped most of 1 through 7. I don't know about you people, but I tend to not think about 6 and 7, just because 1 through 5 are so hard for me to embrace. 4 and 5 really kick my butt. I just fall so short on those two, it not even funny.
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We are all falwed vessels,
Amen.
How are we ever going to live together if we have to agree on everything?
Its a tall order, I know. Impossible for the flesh, I know. But ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE FOR JESUS CHRIST.
Thats the Truth. I believe it.
I follow Ray or Mike, as LONG AS THEY HAVE THE DOCTRINE OF JESUS CHRIST.
When the day come I see they dont have this doctrine I will no longer follow them as they follow Christ.
Christ is # 1 in my life not a man. But I love these men because Christ loves them. If one turns out to be an enemy of the cross, I''ll still love them.
I just WONT GIVE AN INCH ON HERESY. Thats what we ALL should do. That what i'm going to do.
Love...Steve
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Believe this shibboleth, try the spirits (1Jn. 4:1) by the word of God. If someone tells you that some of the book of Revelation is not for you...and you look in Revelation and see...
Rev 1:3 Blessed [is] he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time [is] at hand.
...then you know what to believe. God's Word is the test.
Hi Mustardseed,
would like to add the second verse to your 1John 4:1 ~
1Jo 4:2 in this know ye the Spirit of God; every spirit that doth confess Jesus Christ in the flesh having come, of God it is,
Ok, on to Steve's question.
Well, well, the book of revelation ~ what bits apply to me ...that's the $64,000 question.
I have a problem with understanding how we're to 'keep' a book that is signified. I wish that there was a clearly expressed interpretation of this vision within scripture itself (i know, i know, 'i need eyes and ears to see it right?' :wink: ...maybe you are right about that). Paul forbade the use of tongues within the church unless there was an interpreter present, otherwise it was useless for edification. And now, here we have this whole book needing it :shock: :lol: .
For me, if someone tells me to 'do' or 'not' do something solely based on scriptures from revelation, then i'm afraid i can't put much stock into it. There is plenty of plainly expressed instruction within the new testament to be concerning myself with, without getting 'hung-up' upon the many different interpretations of revelation. You want to know how many different views there are on revelation? :lol:
Steve, do you believe that one has to understand this vision in its entirety and then keep/follow/apply it? (still don't quite understand how anyone uses a vision as cryptic as revelation, and with no clear interpretation within the rest of scripture, and turns it into instruction.) What if i choose to accept my ignorance on the book and not get too involved in the different views on it? Does that mean that i can't be a true disciple?
Edit: I wonder how the elect 'kept' this book before it was written :-k And did it only get sent to the churches in Asia?
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We are all falwed vessels,
Amen.
I follow Ray or Mike, as LONG AS THEY HAVE THE DOCTRINE OF JESUS CHRIST.
When the day come I see they dont have this doctrine I will no longer follow them as they follow Christ.
Love...Steve
Hello Steve,
I don't understand what you mean when you say you "follow", do you mean you view yourself as a disciple?
I believe that Christ's doctrine is summed up fairly simply with....item number four of RVHILL's post......Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
What is your definition of the doctrine of Christ? Is it different than my opinion?
As far as Revelations goes, what is in there that is important to an understanding of the doctrine of Christ. Do we need to really understand any of it? If Revelations were not included as part of the bible, would it significantly change your search for and understanding of truth. It's a question that I have no answer to but would be interested in finding out.
I also would be wary of anyone who told me that something from scripture was "not for me"
I think your question spawned even more questions from me. I apologize for any inconvenience caused but I just have no real answers and would appreciate further understanding if possible.
thanks for raising the question.
feat
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Here is some scripture to ponder.
Rev 3:10 `Because thou didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth.
Rev 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it--for the time is nigh!
Rev 2:11 He who is having an ear--let him hear what the Spirit saith to the assemblies: He who is overcoming may not be injured of the second death.
Rev 3:18 I counsel thee to buy from me gold fired by fire, that thou mayest be rich, and white garments that thou mayest be arrayed, and the shame of thy nakedness may not be manifest, and with eye-salve anoint thine eyes, that thou mayest see.
Rev 3:19 `As many as I love, I do convict and chasten; be zealous, then, and reform;
Rev 12:10 And I heard a great voice saying in the heaven, `Now did come the salvation, and the power, and the reign, of our God, and the authority of His Christ, because cast down was the accuser of our brethren, who is accusing them before our God day and night;
Rev 12:11 and they did overcome him because of the blood of the Lamb, and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life--unto death;
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice out of the heaven, saying, `Come forth out of her, My people, that ye may not partake with her sins, and that ye may not receive of her plagues,
Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and the souls of those who have been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus, and because of the word of God, and who did not bow before the beast, nor his image, and did not receive the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand, and they did live and reign with Christ the thousand years;
Rev 20:6 Happy and holy is he who is having part in the first rising again; over these the second death hath not authority, but they shall be priests of God and of the Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Rev 20:15 and if any one was not found written in the scroll of the life, he was cast to the lake of the fire.
Rev 21:7 he who is overcoming shall inherit all things, and I will be to him--a God, and he shall be to me--the son,
Rev 21:8 and to fearful, and unstedfast, and abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all the liars, their part is in the lake that is burning with fire and brimstone, which is a second death.'
Rev 22:7 Lo, I come quickly; happy is he who is keeping the words of the prophecy of this scroll.'
Rev 22:12 And lo, I come quickly, and my reward is with me, to render to each as his work shall be;
Rev 22:14 `Happy are those doing His commands that the authority shall be theirs unto the tree of the life, and by the gates they may enter into the city;
Rev 22:15 and without are the dogs, and the sorcerers, and the whoremongers, and the murderers, and the idolaters, and every one who is loving and is doing a lie.
1Jo 5:4 because every one who is begotten of God doth overcome the world, and this is the victory that did overcome the world--our faith;
1Jo 5:5 who is he who is overcoming the world, if not he who is believing that Jesus is the Son of God?
1Jo 3:14 we--we have known that we have passed out of the death to the life, because we love the brethren; he who is not loving the brother doth remain in the death.
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1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as [do] others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Luk 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Jhn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
wrath against the day of wrath???
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Rom 13:4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.
Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Eph 5:6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
1Th 2:16 Forbidding us to speak to the Gentiles that they might be saved, to fill up their sins alway: for the wrath is come upon them to the uttermost.
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
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SteveB great topic, you got me thinking and searching. I was thinking of "The prophecy" the "testimony", what it is we keep and I wrote down what I found. No doubt He remains the same, but He came only once to bear sin, not again and again and again thats made clear. The word needs to be rightly divided as well, thats scriptural. Rvhill and feat brought up excellent thoughts, I feel very much the same. Sorry a little long, I really got into this one.
The testimony of Jesus Christ IS the Spirit of prophecy, keep HIS sayings, HIS words. The book is a complete and beautiful revelation OF HIM
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that "keepeth the sayings" OF the prophecy OF this book.
Rev 19:10 I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus IS the spirit of prophecy.[/u]
Like the covenant no man addeth or taketh away from it if it be confirmed. The law itself was added but (but watch the "untils") there was no law that could justify. The first itself is taken away. We are not to add or take away from the prophecy (Jesus Christ) of this book. Keep his sayings.
We abide in his word and His word in us. His doctrine. We have this "testimony" IN US
2Peter 1:19 We have also a MORE SURE WORD OF PROPHECY; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise IN YOUR HEARTS:[/u]
1John 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF[/u]...
We are told abide in Him as it hath taught us being true and no lie. We abide in His word and His doctrine and Gods love is perfected in us.
Looked up say, sayings and word then fell on this which speaks of the way we walk, (our path, hearing him obeying him walking in love)
John 8:52 Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.[/u]
Prov 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.[/u]
John 8:55 Yet ye have not known him; but I know him: and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be a liar like unto you: but I know him, and keep his saying.[/u]
1John 2:4 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?
1John 3:14 We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.[/u]
Luke 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it.[/u]
The Son of God (comes to "give us understanding" HE is the VOICE of "MY WORDS") Hearing His voice as God says, hear ye HIM.
Job 34:16 IF NOW thou HAST UNDERSTANDING, HEAR THIS: hearken to THE VOICE of MY WORDS.[/u]
Which is?
Psalm 119:101 I have REFRAINED MY FEET from every EVIL WAY, that I might KEEP THY WORD.[/u]
Job 28:28 Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to DEPART FROM EVIL IS UNDERSTANDING.
Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that DOETH EVIL, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile
Ecc 8:5 Whoso keepeth the commandment shall feel no evil thing: and a wise man's heart "discerneth" both time and judgment.[/u]
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.[/u]
Prov 16:17 The highway of the upright is to depart from evil: he that keepeth "his way" preserveth his soul.[/u]
1John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.[/u]
1John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.[/u]
Obviously I love the scriptures as most here, Jesus does say you can search the scriptures thinking in them you have eternal life ( to know God ). The scriptures bear witness of Him. He is supposed to be revealed in you and is evidenced by Gods love you have toward His name. I believe its Him alone who opens any book to us. Afterall only He can reveal Himself to whom He chooses. Again I love the book of revelation. So "in that" you could say I "keep" the words of that "book of prophecy". Its the "words" OF the "prophecy" (Jesus Christ) of the book. Keeping His word, his sayings, his word. Isn't it walking in love? in his commandment? the commandments? The anointing is to teach us and we are also to abide in "that" as scripture says. I can't "literally" walk across a dry Euphrates :lol:
So its hard to figure out how another might boldly exclaim concerning "keeping the words". No doubt its clearly written and I love meditating therein but to one it can mean a completely different thing then it means to another. If the book of revelation is a "revealing" of Him. You aint gonna get even a glimpse without obedience to Him. Its through obedience to Him that He manifests (reveals) Himself as He said.
Daniel
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and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).
The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.
This was posted a few months back. And agree with it. Seems as though Rays has changed his mind yet is keeping this paper teaching this Truth on his site and yet says its not true.
I'm confused.
Love...Steve
How has Ray changed his mind on this??
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Here is how I currently see the "rift" between Mike and Ray...
Ray believes that we (the elect) are NOT appointed unto wrath, (which is MORE THAN CLEAR in scripture, is it not?) Mike teaches that we ALL must go through the 7 last plagues (that which FILL UP the wrath of God). But then Mike states that he will NOT have to go through the wrath of God (7 last plagues?) because he already went though it (when he was in Babylon I suppose?)
SO, perhaps they are BOTH correct, but are both looking at it from different perspectives. :idea: The ELECT are NOT the "ELECT" until he/she comes OUT of Babylon (which is possibly where we experience these 7 plagues -- IF we do NOT "come out of her"?), but once we come OUT of Babylon, we are no longer under the wrath of God (and therefore no longer have to go through the 7 LAST PLAGUES), but under Grace? :?
Jeremy
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For me, if someone tells me to 'do' or 'not' do something solely based on scriptures from revelation, then i'm afraid i can't put much stock into it. There is plenty of plainly expressed instruction within the new testament to be concerning myself with, without getting 'hung-up' upon the many different interpretations of revelation. You want to know how many different views there are on revelation? :lol:
You'd be right if revelation was the only book. The sum of Gods Word is Truth. Its all or none. And there is only one interpretation of revelation and its the one explained in the bible.
Steve, do you believe that one has to understand this vision in its entirety and then keep/follow/apply it? (still don't quite understand how anyone uses a vision as cryptic as revelation, and with no clear interpretation within the rest of scripture, and turns it into instruction.) What if i choose to accept my ignorance on the book and not get too involved in the different views on it? Does that mean that i can't be a true disciple?
Depends on your def. of 'understand'. If you mean LIVED(i.e-keep) then yes you do have to keep it. If you mean understand EVERY mystery of the bible then, no. You choose to accept ignorance? The only way you can have eternal life is to know God and Jesus who He sent. Christ is the Word. Revelation is the Word of God. See?
Edit: I wonder how the elect 'kept' this book before it was written :-k And did it only get sent to the churches in Asia?
Keeping the book doent mean you have to have read what John wrote. Keeping it, is living it. Before the book of Revelation was written the saints(if they were overcomers) kept the 'book' because the Book is Christ.
Love...Steve
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You know what's sad? People who don't even believe in Christ seem to have an easier time getting along with everyone than those that do...
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Hello Steve,
I don't understand what you mean when you say you "follow", do you mean you view yourself as a disciple?
I believe that Christ's doctrine is summed up fairly simply with....item number four of RVHILL's post......Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind' ; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
You have to know what those scriptures mean. Love is keeping the revelation of Jesus Christ.
What is your definition of the doctrine of Christ? Is it different than my opinion?
Depends on your 'opinion'.
As far as Revelations goes, what is in there that is important to an understanding of the doctrine of Christ. Do we need to really understand any of it? If Revelations were not included as part of the bible, would it significantly change your search for and understanding of truth. It's a question that I have no answer to but would be interested in finding out.
'Understanding' the Word is Keeping the Word. We would be required to keep the saying of 'this Book' if we didnt have ANY SCRIPTURES. Christ is the Book.
I think your question spawned even more questions from me. I apologize for any inconvenience caused but I just have no real answers and would appreciate further understanding if possible.
I dont have all the answers either. All I know is what i've been given to know.
Peace...Steve
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and [spiritually] keep those things [which are, were, and will be] which are [spiritually] written therein: for the [spiritual] time [that is, was, and will be] is [spiritually] at hand" (Rev. 1:1-3).
The testimony of Jesus Christ does not change, and Christ Himself does not change, and therefore His dealings with humanity do not change, other than that there is coming a consummations of sin and death. Christ is not changed, but WE WILL BE CHANGED to conform to the Image of Jesus Christ.
How has Ray changed his mind on this??
#1 because Mike has been teaching the 'is was and will be' of the Book of Revelation for YEARS and only a few months ago Ray 'changed his mind'. I've been reading there material for almost a year and I know since i've been here only recently has this application of scripture been disputed.
#2 Read the first quote above. Ray says that we 'keep those things, which are, were and will be. How can you keep the whole book in an 'is was and will be' application and at the same time not accept large parts of the book and an only 'will be' application? If someone could explain that, i'm willing to listen.
#3 In the second quote Rays says that 'Chirst doesnt change' but Christ Himself says He 'is was and will be' MANY TIMES. How can He 'not change' but change at the same time? I willing to listen.
Peace...Steve
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Sounds like both Ray and Mike have allowed the BEAST to raise it's head, that and IMO, both are a little to full of themselve's.
Longhorn
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I think this is a whole lot more complex (or maybe more simple) than it is being made out to be. The entire book of Revelation is about the appearing of Jesus Christ and it is signified, right?.
The word "keep", as in keep the saying of this book, means ‘a watch’ or ‘to guard (by keeping the eye upon)’.
These are the things that we are to WATCH for, that signify His appearing.
This is something that I wrote on another forum several days ago and that I sent to Mike yesterday. I have no idea if it agrees completely with either Mike or Ray, but here it is:
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I have been looking at the Book of Revelation and am wondering what does it mean to ‘keep those things which are written therein�?
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/list:u]
This ‘phrase’ is repeated three times, I think, in the book. There in Rev 1:3 and here:
Rev 22:7 Behold, I come quickly:
blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
Rev 22:8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
Rev 22:9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.[/list:u]
There are other reference in Revelations and throughout the scriptures about ‘keeping’ His commandments and ‘keeping’ His word. Not sure if that is related or not, but seeing that the word here for ‘keep’ is tēreō which appears to mean ‘a watch’ or ‘to guard (by keeping the eye upon)’.
In Rev 19:9 and 22:6 we have:
Rev 19:9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me,
These are the true sayings of God.
Rev 22:6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.[/list:u]
The entire Book of Revelation is about the revelation OF JESUS CHRIST… it is about His ‘appearing�, His ‘coming’, right? That is what the ‘sayings’ are about, right?
It was signified to John, and includes the ‘signs of the times’ of His coming, does it not?
Signs that the Scribes and the Pharisees could not discern:
Mat 16:3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites,
ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?[/list:u]
We are admonished in scripture to WATCH for Him:
Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mar 13:32-37 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch. Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping. And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Luk 12:37-40 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them. And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through. Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not. [/list:u]
Even in the Book of Revelation we are told to watch, lest he come as a thief unto us:
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent.
If therefore thou shalt NOT watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.[/list:u]
So when it says:
Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy,
and keep (watch, or keep their eye upon) those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.[/list:u]
I tend to think that it mean to ‘keep watch’ and be able to ‘discern the times’, for THE TIME IS AT HAND, and He COMES QUICKLY and we best not be caught ‘sleeping’ when he does appear.
But not only that, but that those things that are we are to be ‘watching’ for are the things that we will be ‘going through’ and we “are His� then these are the things that we should be experiencing in our own life and see happening in the lives of others??
We are to heed the words written to the angels of the churches and take note, if you will, of the promised that are made “to those who overcome�.
We must recognize the ‘beast’ and pay attention to where the ‘seat of Satan’ is, etc; be able to recognize “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT� and come out of her so that we “be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues�, etc.
But, overall, be able to discern the signs of the times?
Any thoughts?
Blessings,
Christine
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Something that I should have added, but didn't think about at the time was this:
Judgment has been given to the saints:
Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Psa 149:5-9 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds. Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand; To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people; To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron; To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.[/list:u]
Think about that in light of just who it is who is pouring out the wrath of God in the book of Revelation.
The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.[/list:u]
It is the 'angels' that are sounding the trumpets and pouring the vials in the Book of Revelation. IS, WAS, and WILL BE, as I see it.
Blessings,
Chrissie
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Here is how I currently see the "rift" between Mike and Ray...
Ray believes that we (the elect) are NOT appointed unto wrath, (which is MORE THAN CLEAR in scripture, is it not?) Mike teaches that we ALL must go through the 7 last plagues (that which FILL UP the wrath of God). But then Mike states that he will NOT have to go through the wrath of God (7 last plagues?) because he already went though it (when he was in Babylon I suppose?)
Ray quotes 1Thes. 5:9...
1Th 5:9 For3754 God2316 hath not3756 appointed5087 us2248 to1519 wrath,3709 but235 to obtain1519, 4047 salvation4991 by1223 our2257 Lord2962 Jesus2424 Christ,5547
Now here is the word used in Rev. 15:1...
Rev 15:1 And2532 I saw1492 another243 sign4592 in1722 heaven,3772 great3173 and2532 marvelous,2298 seven2033 angels32 having2192 the3588 seven2033 last2078 plagues;4127 for3754 in1722 them846 is filled up5055 the3588 wrath2372 of God.2316
So we are talking about two seperate words. With two meaning!
Here are verses that have BOTH words in same sentence....
Col 3:8 But1161 now3570 ye5210 also2532 put off659 all these;3956 anger,3709 wrath,2372 malice,2549 blasphemy,988 filthy communication148 out of1537 your5216 mouth.4750
Eph 4:31 Let all3956 bitterness,4088 and2532 wrath,2372 and2532 anger,3709 and2532 clamor,2906 and2532 evil speaking,988 be put away142 from575 you,5216 with4862
all3956 malice:2549
Rom 2:8 But1161 unto them that are contentious,1537, 2052 and2532 do not obey544, (3303) the3588 truth,225 but1161 obey3982 unrighteousness,93 indignation2372 and2532 wrath,3709
Not the same words. With different meanings. Witness by them being used in the same sentence.
So in Rev. 15:1 the word translated 'wrath' is not the same used in 1Thes. 5:9. If you read the Rev. 15:1 verse its the SEVEN ANGELS(the elect) who 'fill up the wrath of God up'. Where is it filled?
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So is the "rift" strictly over the issue of whether the elect go through the wrath of God? Or is it more fundametnal than that -- has Ray really changed his view on "is, was, will be" in some greater sense? I can see the former, but I trouble believing Ray has changed his mind on something so foundational. Has Ray said he changed his mind or is that your interpretation of the situation?
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So is the "rift" strictly over the issue of whether the elect go through the wrath of God? Or is it more fundametnal than that -- has Ray really changed his view on "is, was, will be" in some greater sense? I can see the former, but I trouble believing Ray has changed his mind on something so foundational. Has Ray said he changed his mind or is that your interpretation of the situation?
From what I know Ray says that the elect dont 'is was and will be' go through the seal, trumpits, last plagues and that the elect are not 'is was and will being' the beast and false prophet. This is my understanding. If this is wrong then someone please correct me.
Mike told me that Ray understood and believed 'Mikes interpretation' of 'is was and will be' until sometime before the michigan conference about two months ago. Mike has been teaching it for years, which Ray knew and IS teaching in his '12 principles' paper(at least thats the way i read it). So I'd call it 'changing his mind'. I dont know what else to call it.
Peace...Steve
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Strangley enough, I have been struggling with this issue of judgment & wrath for some time. Why? Because in the OT judgment & wrath are something that precedes redemption of God's people. Yet the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Joel 1:4 That which the palmerworm hath left hath the locust eaten; and that which the locust hath left hath the cankerworm eaten; and that which the cankerworm hath left hath the caterpiller eaten.....
....
2:1 Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for [it is] nigh at hand;
2:2 A day of darkness and of gloominess, a day of clouds and of thick darkness, as the morning spread upon the mountains: a great people and a strong; there hath not been ever the like, neither shall be any more after it, even to the years of many generations.
....
3:15 The sun and the moon shall be darkened, and the stars shall withdraw their shining.
3:16 The LORD also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the LORD will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.
3:17 So shall ye know that I am the LORD your God dwelling in Zion, my holy mountain: then shall Jerusalem be holy, and there shall no strangers pass through her any more.
Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.
So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.
So I am somewhat at a loss on this.
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Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.
So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.
So I am somewhat at a loss on this.
Here is what i know. We are to keep the saying of the book of Revelation. That is as clear as anything I know in bible. It didnt say keep some of the saying it says ALL of them. And that is was and will be.
So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?
Timing.
We are not appointed to 'wrath' that those in the second death will receive. Why? Because we were judged by grace through his chastening(trails and scourgings) to foresake ungodliness in THIS LIFE, THE FIRST DEATH. Sounds like the first and second resurection to me.
The elect go through the plagues, trumpits, seals NOW. The wicked later. God works His justice in the same way. Out of our own mouths we are judged. The elect and the wicked. ITS THE SAME JUDGEMENT. IT THE FIRE OF THE WORD OF GOD. ONLY ONE IS EARLY, ONE IS LATER. One is called a firey trial (the first death) one is called 'the lake of fire'(the second death.) Same Fire, its OUR GOD. Same result Oneness in the Father.
Peace...Steve
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Maybe these words only apply to the NON-elect? Maybe the elect, if we are "good enough" can escape wrath? After all there is a NARROW GATE that does NOT lead to destruction.
So maybe these words are not meant for God's elect? But then says above "the sun & moon will be darkened" and this is quoted in Acts 2 as being fulfilled in God's elect on Pentecost. So then it does apply to God's elect.
So I am somewhat at a loss on this.
Here is what i know. We are to keep the saying of the book of Revelation. That is as clear as anything I know in bible. It didnt say keep some of the saying it says ALL of them. And that is was and will be.
So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?
Timing.
We are not appointed to 'wrath' that those in the second death will receive. Why? Because we were judged by grace through his chastening(trails and scourgings) to foresake ungodliness in THIS LIFE, THE FIRST DEATH. Sounds like the first and second resurection to me.
The elect go through the plagues, trumpits, seals NOW. The wicked later. God works His justice in the same way. Out of our own mouths we are judged. The elect and the wicked. ITS THE SAME JUDGEMENT. IT THE FIRE OF THE WORD OF GOD. ONLY ONE IS EARLY, ONE IS LATER. One is called a firey trial (the first death) one is called 'the lake of fire'(the second death.) Same Fire, its OUR GOD. Same result Oneness in the Father.
Peace...Steve
Interesting scripture.
Isaiah 30:33
33 For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the LORD, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it
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Steve,
All of those things that you mention (and those Mike and Ray have mentioned) are IN the Book of Revelation. Like the Lake of Fire, which is the second death, and the wrath of God.
Don't you think that this may be just a matter of two people looking at different sides of the same coin, thinking that they are seeing something different when they are not?
If we are NOT appointed to wrath and we do NOT go through the Lake of Fire (second death) then how do we 'keep' that part of the prophecy of the book?
Mike is saying that we DO keep it and go through it (but earlier and as a 'fiery trial' etc) and Ray says that we DO NOT because we are not appointed to wrath (which sounds pretty much like the SAME thing to me, as I am sure that Ray acknowledges that we go through that "fiery trial" NOW).
Seems to me that they are BOTH RIGHT, in a sense, and the argument is over how the words or saying are applied and what it means to "keep" the sayings of the prophesy of this book.
The Lake of Fire is IN the book, it is PART of the prophesy. YET, the elect are NOT HURT by it. Doesn't mean they don't experience a 'fiery trial' of their own now and it doesn't even mean that they are not a part of the Lake of Fire (as He makes His ministers a FLAME OF FIRE). Even those who are tormented in the LoF are tormented IN THE PRESENCE OF THE LAMB, right?
I don't think that it is as easy as making a list of all the things that are written about in Revelation and saying that every single person will go through every single thing written, as it is written. Because not ALL are cast into the Lake of Fire, though ALL will go through 'the fire' (or judgment) of God. (That is just one example that I can think of.)
I still think of these things as things that we are to WATCH for, as SIGNS OF THE TIMES, so that we may discern them... but not, necessarily, that we each go through those experiences and those 'sayings' in the same way or at the same time. Which seems to me to be what you are also saying? Even, perhaps, what both Mike and Ray are saying - but saying differently??
So I am having a hard time understanding exactly what the 'differences' are between Mike and Ray on this. And am wondering if they aren't a bit closer than they think, but just seeing the same thing at a different angle - so describing it differently??
Chrissie
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Everybody is throwing down the word keep and making it bold and underlining it. Try defining it before you say you agree with it.
Get your E=swods out and do a study on the word keep and keepeth, There are many scriptures (440) some with both the word keep and do.
They are totally differwent words. It doesn't mean live it. It means to guard put a hedge around. Hold it so precious that you will lie down your life for it.
f Christ lives in you, the old man is dead and you are not doing anything any more. Nothing you do will ever Glorify God it is Christ in you that worketh and this will Glorify God when everything is manifested. I do not think that God could be more blunt than referring to us as filtly menstrual rags.... duh.
If we could not obey the 10 commandments ,what makes you think you can even begin to obey the Golden Rule as expoused by Christ.? One of the guys wrote a paper about this. Only Christ with his perfect obediance to the will of the Father accomplished that.
John was the last living Apostle, he was given this Revelation and told to write it down. If you read it and have ears to hear you must guard it.
This is an awsome responsibility. The elect are being allowed to witness and participate in His plan. You are not the Elect just because you come out of Babylon . You need to run the good race not physically but spiritually. You need to mature in the Word and die daily in the flesh.
(1Co 9:26 KJVR) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(1Co 9:27 KJVR) But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
No He did not just write to the seven churches in Asia. He wrote to all the called through the ages , That is all of Babylon. even when you were in it. When you are called out you then begin to see what the symbols reallly mean. The study of revelations is so layered with spiritual meanings and the papers that came out did not begin to scratch the surface.
Let the guys write their stuff. We may witness a great spiritual sword (word) fight. But we will still need to be Bereans and search and hunger for the truth.
I love that word Truth in Hebrew is emeth, it is a feminine form of Amen. In hebrew it is an Alpha and Omega word (read right to left).
Christ is the Word, the Truth and the Alpha and Omega.
Beloved
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/liebe/love-smiley-006.gif)
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Everybody is throwing down the word keep and making it bold and underlining it. Try defining it before you say you agree with it.
Get your E=swods out and do a study on the word keep and keepeth, There are many scriptures (440) some with both the word keep and do.
They are totally differwent words. It doesn't mean live it. It means to guard put a hedge around. Hold it so precious that you will lie down your life for it.
Maybe you have a different definition of "everybody" but if you look back about 8 posts you will see where the word was defined. :wink:
f Christ lives in you, the old man is dead and you are not doing anything any more. Nothing you do will ever Glorify God it is Christ in you that worketh and this will Glorify God when everything is manifested. I do not think that God could be more blunt than referring to us as filtly menstrual rags.... duh.
If we could not obey the 10 commandments ,what makes you think you can even begin to obey the Golden Rule as expoused by Christ.? One of the guys wrote a paper about this. Only Christ with his perfect obediance to the will of the Father accomplished that.
Is someone arguing against that? Besides, you CAN obey the 10 commandments (to the letter) and still NOT "obey the golden rule".
John was the last living Apostle, he was given this Revelation and told to write it down. If you read it and have ears to hear you must guard it.
This is an awsome responsibility. The elect are being allowed to witness and participate in His plan. You are not the Elect just because you come out of Babylon . You need to run the good race not physically but spiritually. You need to mature in the Word and die daily in the flesh.
(1Co 9:26 KJVR) I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air:
(1Co 9:27 KJVR) But I keepunder my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.
Amen!
No He did not just write to the seven churches in Asia. He wrote to all the called through the ages , That is all of Babylon. even when you were in it. When you are called out you then begin to see what the symbols reallly mean. The study of revelations is so layered with spiritual meanings and the papers that came out did not begin to scratch the surface.
I think that everyone here understands that the 'seven churches' represent ALL. And I think all or most understand that you will not even be able to read or hear (understand) what is written in the book UNTIL God gives you the eyes and ears to see and hear.
As far as the article goes, I did not read what came out before it was taken down, so I cannot speak to what it did or did not cover, but I would agree with you that there are many spiritual layers to it and it may not even be POSSIBLE to uncover them all and COMPLETELY understand what is written therein or what was 'witnessed' by John. But as we GROW in Christ (or He grows IN US) will see and hear and understand more.
Let the guys write their stuff. We may witness a great spiritual sword (word) fight. But we will still need to be Bereans and search and hunger for the truth.
As many here are also trying to do. And news of a 'rift' between the two men has opened some discussion about what exactly their 'differences' are. which is only natural. I would think that to be part of being a "Berean", as well as part of ones "search and hunger for the truth"?
I love that word Truth in Hebrew is emeth, it is a feminine form of Amen. In hebrew it is an Alpha and Omega word (read right to left).
Christ is the Word, the Truth and the Alpha and Omega.
AMEN!
Chrissie
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These seem to fit well with the revelation of Jesus Christ and with the KEEPING of those things that have been given to us by Him, as well as what He is KEEPING for us:
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.
2Ti 1:8 Be not thou therefore ashamed of the testimony of our Lord, nor of me his prisoner: but
be thou partaker of the afflictions of the gospel according to the power of God;
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,
2Ti 1:10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:
2Ti 1:11 Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
2Ti 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
2Ti 1:13 Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 1:14 That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.[/list:u]
We don't 'do' or 'keep' any of this ALONE. It is only by and through HIM and the faith and the love, the mercy and the grace that He bestows on us that we are MADE ABLE to do or keep ANYTHING.
Blessings,
Chrissie
PS... yes, I KNOW it's not the 'same' word for keep as in Revelation, but it carries the same meaning.... to watch or to be on guard. :wink:
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Chrissie I agree, right on. The Faith and love in Christ, as a freind of mine says, K.I.S.S... Keep it simple stupid :lol:
The simplicity of devotion to Him. I'm into what HE reveals to me not what man do. Secondhand is alright but firsthand is much better.
I learned that "getting hand me downs" :lol:
Daniel
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I have a question, so let the bombs fall....
What if the Elect ARE the Lake of Fire? Wouldn't they being keeping all of the Revelation of Christ since we are, as Elect, being steered by Christ who is at the helm with His mind?
If God is a consuming fire, and Christ came to do the will of His Father "who is in heaven", and Christ has clearly stated that we are as he was in this world, then being Christ through His mind, must make us a consuming fire?
Christ's mind = the Father's will and not his own = a consuming fire?
Thoughts?
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I have a question, so let the bombs fall....
What if the Elect ARE the Lake of Fire? Wouldn't they being keeping all of the Revelation of Christ since we are, as Elect, being steered by Christ who is at the helm with His mind?
If God is a consuming fire, and Christ came to do the will of His Father "who is in heaven", and Christ has clearly stated that we are as he was in this world, then being Christ through His mind, must make us a consuming fire?
Christ's mind = the Father's will and not his own = a consuming fire?
Thoughts?
This is my understanding. We are the Fire of God since were in Him. We are being burned, were burned, and are going to be burned. We also are burning, were burning, are will burn the people of the kosmos.
IS, WAS, AND WILL BE.
Peace...Steve
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I could not have not said it any better Steve B, Got it in a nutshell.
Beloved
(http://www.clicksmilies.com/s0105/huepfen/jumping-smiley-001.gif)
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Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with burnings eonian?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
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Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with burnings eonian?
Isa 33:15 He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil;
Heres one Andrew :lol:
Isaiah 65:5 Which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. THESE are a SMOKE in my nose, A FIRE "that burneth all the day".
Daniel
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Strangley enough, I have been struggling with this issue of judgment & wrath for some time. Why? Because in the OT judgment & wrath are something that precedes redemption of God's people. Yet the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.
Interesting how this has become an issue?
It is my suggestion Bob, do a study on the Judgment of Gehenna.... This has been such an eye opener for me and explains how God's wrath in the OT precedes redemption of God's people, and why the NT says we are not appointed to wrath.
Second, the problem is a false dilemma falacy, in which people attach this wrath to either the "Elect" or "Non-Elect". In other words, just like Grace and Law, many people mistake it as opposites, or that they even did the same thing.
I hope that more clarity comes.
So we go through firey trails and scourgings in THIS life. Whats the difference between that and the 'wrath' of the wicked ?
I said I found it interesting that I actually have been studying this topic directly and because of many things I read from Ray, and a few of the members here which struck me to study it... But when I told you about the study, you got upset at me for teaching instead of fellowship, thinking I come to subvert some. So instead of giving me some comments on it, you totally disregarded it. Perhaps you remember this study? I was doing a large study Gehenna and Matthew 10?
I hope if you are still reading this, read Isaiah 33. I agree it has something to do with timing, but now I also notice you 'teaching' here... Something you critisized me of doing, and I am sad over this. I have found without much well-supported opposition to it, that not all Fire is God, but I am not teaching here. I am just finding it odd.
Rocky...Isaiah 30 is a good Scripture
"The breath of Yahweh, as a watercourse of sulphur, is consuming in it."
But now read Isaiah 33:11-14...
You will be pregnant with chaff. You will generate straw. Your breath is fire. It will devour you.
Become will the peoples as the burnings of lime, as thorns grubbed up, in fire shall they be ravaged."
Hear, you that are afar, what I do. And know, you that are near, My mastery."
Afraid are the sinners in Zion, quivering holds the polluted. Who is telling you of the devouring fire? Who is telling you of the glowings eonian?
Intersting how Isaiah says to the "Destroyer and Traiter who is pregnant with chaff and generates straw"'s spirit is fire and it consumes and devours them as well. So we find the breathe of the destroyer, traitor, etc. is a fire that consumes them. It will continue to consume them as long as they continue to be pregnant with chaff and continue to produce straw.
So we find two fires at work, one that is God and the other that is the 'Destroyer'. Though I am in no way insinuating that God has not planned this, or is not in control. I am just pointing out there is two fires which are breath.
Just some interesting things I found too. You may what to do a study on TOPHET, and find out how it is related to Gehenna as well.
This only a suggestion, this topic seems to be a problem for many, so I am giving my two cents as much as anyone else.
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Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
FIRE + SAND= GLASS
anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is
GOD BLESS
euty
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AMEN, Bobby!!
Very nicely put!
Blessings,
Chrissie
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Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
FIRE + SAND= GLASS
anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is
GOD BLESS
euty
Well, we know that God is a consuming fire, right? :wink:
What about the LAW though....??? Think that might 'fit' in there somewhere too??
Chrissie
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Rev 4:6 And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind.
Gen 22:17 That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which [is] upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
FIRE + SAND= GLASS
anyone know who the fire is? what the fire is
GOD BLESS
euty
Well, we know that God is a consuming fire, right? :wink:
What about the LAW though....??? Think that might 'fit' in there somewhere too??
Chrissie
The Lord descended on Mount Sinai with Fire. The law is not of faith and it "worketh wrath", where God swears concerning His entering His rest.
Moses (the ministry of death) smote the Rock (Christ) Twice in type. Looks like "second strike from the ministry of death". Second death, being it hath "power over" and "its sting" is because it is the very power of sin itself. Its sting is sin (sting of death and its condemnation) verses in Christ who "loosed the pains of death" (who is without sin). In Christ there is no condemnation. I would ask in accordance to these two "Where, is thy sting"? The victory and overcoming is through faith the law is not of faith.
Twicedead is shown here and now. The first age, and age to come. These be living "after the flesh" even as Paul says ye shall die. But if by the spirit you mortify the deeds of the body ye shall live (we live by faith and the effectual working of His power in those who believe). We live and reign by one, Christ Jesus, sin not having dominion over us because we are under grace. Sin has its reign and power under the law while we were yet in the flesh as death itself is shown reigning from Adam to Moses (old man and law). Not "new man" and "grace".
We are all "by nature" (the flesh) children of wrath like the rest while we were in the flesh, so we come from "there" as no flesh can please God. He seeks those to worship Him in Spirit and in truth. Its the passing over from death (ministry of condemnation, living after the flesh) to life (ministry of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus) here and now. Believing not in Him and Gods wrath abiding on them would be where?
I agree, we are not appointed to wrath as much as we are not appointed to shrink back to that which makes nothing perfect. To simply "die in ones sins" and not SEE the LIFE here and now, for by wrath the land is simply "darkened".
I'm agreeing with Chrissie, and good word Bobby. I also see the sword cutting the picture in two parts or portions as even Craig pointed out. I too have been doing an extensive study on this. Seems we are all interested.
Daniel
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Mike:
After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?
Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right? Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.
Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt? Yes! Was she touched by them? No! Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar? Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them? No! Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world. So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church. The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does. But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'? But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.
MAT 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).
Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
REV 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.
The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying. This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something. Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'. It means a passive reception of something. Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling. But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.
Is this a possibility. Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?
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hey great find!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I was listeneing to Rays talk on deedles website... the last 20 minutes of How Hard is Getting Saved part 2,....Ray says: We're going to live the seals"...and much more that seemed to jive with what mike was saying... im not sure why they disagreed... it seemed like they were argueing the same thing... only thought the other was against them... i dunno... Ray seems pretty sure about his talk here...... check it out!
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Mike:
After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?
Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right? Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.
Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt? Yes! Was she touched by them? No! Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar? Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them? No! Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world. So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church. The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does. But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'? But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.
MAT 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).
Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
REV 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.
The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying. This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something. Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'. It means a passive reception of something. Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling. But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.
Is this a possibility. Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?
Exactly its as two parts within one. One feels the evil and anguish the other is simply not hurt but both are there. Same with being chastened or Judged of the Lord in order to learn the difference in these things.
Those who threw in the three in the fire were consumed suffered loss the three in the fire felt nothing, no hurt or power over them. Protected in His presence as our Life is Hid in Christ in whom we are sealed (protected). One is doing the wrong and the other has done no wrong. One is protected the other consumed.
Daniel
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Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
Excellent post lightseeker.
I zeroed in on part of it because this has also been a source of confusion to me. Is it not true that we are not overcomers by our own wills but by the grace and will of the Father.
Since God does the choosing, is it possible that all the elect are still part of organized religion? Is God still perfecting mankind? Is it possible that no more elect , except for possibly the apostles, will be chosen until God molds mankind into a better clay pot a 1000 years from now with a more spiritual frame of reference? Just some hypotheticals that hit me.
There are so many interpretations of Revelations I've read that it is understandable that many are confused and in disagreement.
Thanks for your most helpful post.
feat
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where'd steveb go??
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banned
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Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Did Christ purify the Sons of Levi? Of course He did not. They killed Him. Is Malachi therefore a heretic?
?????
Yes Christ did! Who are the sons of Levi if not the elect? The elect is the Israel of God and they have been purified by Christ's blood. Why must we see Malachi's prophecy according to physical Israel.
Didn't God say that he would make a royal priesthood and a special people. He was talking TO physical Jews. But who was he talking about? US. WE are a holy nation and a royal priesthood.
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Sometimes you wonder if its not too much the case of being right or wrong always. Seems moreso how we "behave" while thinking we are either right or wrong. We can be quick to point out and wrest with a word becoming a heretic in that way and calling "the other" one not realizing this in ourselves. Like straining out a gnat in that regard but swalling a camel :lol: Overlooking the more weightier issues.
Granted those who taught concerning the "resurrection" being "past" were (in doing this) overthrowing the "faith" of some. That to which affected ones hope or faith (which worketh by love). That which spoke to their "hope" to know "Him" (who IS the Resurrection). It was to that Paul was speaking concerning something that would overthrow their faith and hope (to which we are called). We are saved by hope, being an heir of God "in this world".
Daniel
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In looking at both arguments it seems that there is a difference in application. Mike sees that the blasphemous Babylonians recieving the plagues are within each man. While Ray is saying that the Babylonians are in the church system alone.
What this is leading to is Mike saying, within us is the man of sin who is in many ways still part of Babylon cursing God as he recieves the plagues. It isn't that we are cursing God and refusing to repent, but that our flesh is doing that, or the sin in our flesh, the man of sin within each of us. Mike's interpretation seems more inward focused.
On the other hand Ray has a good point too. God has admonished us to come out of Babylon and NOT recieve those plagues. If Babylon is the church and we have come out of the church we should not be recieving those plagues at all. The elect do not blaspheme God.
I think a major difference has to do with the fact that Mike is speaking from a subconcious point of view, that our flesh is still part of Babylon so it is blapheming God, but Ray is coming from a more conscious point of view that blasphemy is a matter of being consciously opposed to God and consciously separated from the church.
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Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Deedle :D
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Mal 3:3 And he shall sit [as] a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness.
Did Christ purify the Sons of Levi? Of course He did not. They killed Him. Is Malachi therefore a heretic?
?????
Yes Christ did! Who are the sons of Levi if not the elect? The elect is the Israel of God and they have been purified by Christ's blood. Why must we see Malachi's prophecy according to physical Israel.
Didn't God say that he would make a royal priesthood and a special people. He was talking TO physical Jews. But who was he talking about? US. WE are a holy nation and a royal priesthood.
Wasn't that Mike's point? That's what I understood him to be saying... that it was not the PHYSICAL (sons of Levi), but the SPIRITUAL (sons of Levi).
That this was a Prophecy... and meant to be 'applied' SPIRITUALLY.
Chrissie
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Great verses, Deedle!!
Chrissie
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Wasn't that Mike's point? That's what understood him to be saying... that it was not the PHYSICAL (sons of Levi), but the SPIRITUAL (sons of Levi).
That this was a Prophecy... and meant to be 'applied' SPIRITUALLY.
Chrissie
It sounds like Mike to make that point, but in his wording I must have missed it. I'll look again.
Eph 2:2
Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.
Col 3:6
For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience: 7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
Good scriptures Deedle.
Every time I think of the 7 Plagues, I think of Egypt's 10 plagues, and then I think of Goshen. Aren't we in Goshen? What does it say that the Jews were in Goshen not recieving the 10 plagues, but were then delivered out of Egyptian slavery?
Could it be that Egypt represents the sinful flesh, recieving the plagues, while we spiritual Jews, at the same time, are preserved in Goshen awaiting complete deliverance through the manifold presence of the Holy Spirit within? Paul says that we are no longer in the flesh, while Peter says that we still contend with fiery trials of temptation. But the more we are putting to death the deeds of the body, the less plagues we recieve because we are "coming out of her." Maybe. Just thinking out loud.
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where'd steveb go??
I don't know what happened, still checking.
Craig
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thanks for checking!
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I want to know why SteveB was banned. He was merely asking the same questions others have asked about Ray and Mikes departure. Why can't Ray tell us what he means in his reply to Mikes e-mail and the second part of his "How to Be Saved" tape. I can't speak for Ray and if there are questions, we can't answer them. Only Ray can. Could you please ask Ray about this Dennis or one of the other mods. I believe we all want to know what he has to say.
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chrissiela, you were right. Mike is in agreement with the fact that Malachi was speaking spiritually, and was therefore using that as an example suggesting that the plagues likewise have spiritual application to the flesh that resists God such as the fire that cleanses the Levites today. I mistook his wording, so after another reading it became more clear. Thank you. :D
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I may be going out on a limb, but REALLY, couldn't Ray or Mike deliver a message to us so we can end all this speculation on whether they are really agreeing from different angles??
I think this is too important for them not to talk to us. I am too afraid to send an email to Ray-I fear his answer. And why should we inundate him with the same question. I have met Mike at a conference and tried to get thru but couldn't e mail from his website.
I'm just saying...... :roll: Please talk to us.
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Gmik, I think they are still working it out. Patience, patience. Consider the fact that they might still be working on understanding eachother and are hesitant to make anything sound "official." If anything does become official it would be right for them to come out and say so themselves. Until then, patience. I'd rather have a fuller complete message, than "maybe this" and "maybe that." :wink:
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thanks lm.....patience, you are right
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chrissiela, you were right. Mike is in agreement with the fact that Malachi was speaking spiritually, and was therefore using that as an example suggesting that the plagues likewise have spiritual application to the flesh that resists God such as the fire that cleanses the Levites today. I mistook his wording, so after another reading it became more clear. Thank you. :D
You're welcome!! :wink:
Chrissie
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Partaking of her plagues is in DIRECT proportion to partaking of her sins.
Revelation 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
5 For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.
6 Reward her even as she rewarded you, and double unto her double according to her works: in the cup which she hath filled fill to her double.
7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Does "ye receive not of her plagues" mean that God's elect never partook of her plagues or does it mean that God's elect cease to partake of her plagues WHEN they come out of her.
Leviticus 26 shows that there is always another SEVEN plagues to partake of so long as one remains in her sins.
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They may indeed be working it out as "peter and paul". I think it best in the meantime to be faithful, and to follow Christ. For that matter, not even in the meantime. Just follow Christ, not man.
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Can we see an affidavid of this?
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SOTW - an affadavid of what?
Looks like the BT Admin/Gestapo have pulled Andrews posts off, he's probably been banned from this forum ala SteveB.
I'm guessing I won't be too far behind.
EZE
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are they going to ban us all for asking?... just a question.... :|
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Mike:
After visiting your site regarding the upcoming Conference in Michigan, I see that you are planning to teach that the Elect will all have to go through the Seven Last Plagues. I have already told you that I believe this to be unscriptural. The elect assuredly DO NOT go through the Seven Last Plagues. God, in fact, gives assurance, that if His people will "COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive NOT OF HER PLAGUES" (Rev. 18:4). The only way that you can put the Elect through the Seven Last Plagues, is to "add to" or "take away from" this plain Scripture stating that those who come OUT OF HER (the Elect) will NOT receive of her plagues.
"For God has NOT appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (I Thes. 5:9). The Seven Last Plagues fill up "the WRATH of the Lamb" (Rev. 6:17), and the Elect are NOT APPOINTED TO WRATH. What are the Elect appointed to? They are appointed to "afflictions and tribulation," (I Thes. 3:3-4), not the WRATH OF GOD (I Thes. 5:9). What part of the word "not" do you not understand?
Is it possible that both Ray and Mike are right? Might I expand on the scriptures quoted, in a teaching of comparison, and see if additional light might not be shed upon this dilemma.
Did Israel go through the Plagues of Egypt? Yes! Was she touched by them? No! Did not Shadrack, Meshach and Abednego go through the wrath of the firey furnace, of King Nebuchadnezzar? Were they harmed or was the smell of smoke even upon them? No! Are we not admonished to be in the world and yet not of the world. So also, can one be in the church and yet not of the church. The church by definiton is the called out ones, and we don't do the calling...God does. But aren't the nomial believers still part of 'the church'? But to become a chosen or elect one is not of his calling but of our doing....after His calling.
MAT 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called (kletos/saints), but few chosen (eklektos: select; by impl. favorite).
Do the overcomers (chosen ones) overcome by leaving…or by not partaking of her sins and blasphemies...by cleaning up their act in obedient sanctification.
There are those in the church who are living ‘in Christed’ and in the heavenlies. They are also those who are led by the Spirit of God and are therefore Sons of god (Rom 8:14). But there are also those in the church who are 'in Christ' and living at the earthly realm, far below the position that comes to those who press in to the high calling of Christ (Phi 3:14). But they are not 'the elect' because they have not cleansed themselves to be chosen and honorable vessels (2Ti 2:21).
REV 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive/lambano not of her plagues.
The word for receive in this verse is not saying what it superficially seems to be saying. This word 'lambano' indicates 'a self prompted taking' of something. Whereas the other Greek word usually translated receive is 'decomai'. It means a passive reception of something. Those who are going to partake of the plagues will be those who have taken/received them because they haven't pressed into the high calling. But those who have will be allowed to go through them...and yet without being touched by them.
Is this a possibility. Could both, Ray and Mike, be half right and yet half wrong?
Thanks for the post it helped me realize, as with the plagues; all went through the plagues, some hurt by it, some not., but all went through it at the same time. Same with Shadrack story, some hurt, some not; same fire, same time.
Lake of fire is now, some hurt by it, some not???
Th wrath of God is now, not only in the future? The lake of fire is now, not only in the future? I see those not being hurt in the second death as happening now, and some are being hurt by the second death now. Is this how u see it?
Is, was and will be.
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Is not The Book ( Christ) a book for Today , Yesterday and Tomorrow ?
Luk 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of [their] infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many [that were] blind he gave sight.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
why?
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
That which has Not been Planted shall be rooted Up
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
Deu 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.
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Is not The Book ( Christ) a book for Today , Yesterday and Tomorrow ?
Luk 7:21 And in that same hour he cured many of [their] infirmities and plagues, and of evil spirits; and unto many [that were] blind he gave sight.
Rev 16:8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
Rev 16:9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away
Mar 4:15 And these are they by the way side, where the word is sown; but when they have heard, Satan cometh immediately, and taketh away the word that was sown in their hearts.
Mar 4:16 And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
why?
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
That which has Not been Planted shall be rooted Up
Mat 15:13 But he answered and said, Every plant, which my heavenly Father hath not planted, shall be rooted up.
Pro 2:22 But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it.
Deu 29:28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as [it is] this day.
Yes, is, was and will be. Today, Yesterday, and tomorrow
Seems to me that the lake of fire is not in the next Age, for those in this age who didn't overcome. Seems to me, the LOF is now, for those not overcoming, and they are hurt by it.
Fire is going on now for all, one not being hurt by it, one being hurt by it.
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are they going to ban us all for asking?... just a question.... :|
Becky and all,
No less than 3 times has Dennis posted and asked us to drop the subject, that now is not the time to speculate and start rumors about things that none of us know what is going on anyway. Myself included.
The people who have been banned could not let it go and posted PMs (PRIVATE messages) and emails of converstations that may not tell the whole story, leading to more questions and speculation.
Dennis nor any of the mods have asked anyone to take sides over this isssue. Ray has said, and Dennis posted, he will answer in the future, now is not the time. So for now let's move on.
Let me say one thing though that is causing me some concern. Doctrines are formed when someone gets revelation of a biblical truth. We then tend to take this ball and run with it, making the rest of the scriptures to fit into our preconceived mold.
I fear that, Is Was and Will Be (the idea, NOT the website or Mike), is becoming a doctrine unto itself. There is truth to this very compelling and wonderful way of looking at scripture, but you can't pull every scripture out of the air and spritualize it to conform to this truth.
I see some of us here starting to do just this. I pray that we all follow in the real truths of God and not the doctrines that our human natures wish to adhere to.
Please, Please, Please do not take this a me throwing a barb at Mike because that is not my intention at all. This has nothing to do with Ray or Mike's problems, just my own observation.
I hope that nobody else is ever banned here, but you must leave this alone for now.
Blessings
Craig
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Craig
May I ask having read Rays work and Mike s
One of the ways to Understanding scripture is Thus:
Which things also we speak, not in the words which man’s wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; COMPARING [or ‘matching’] SPIRITUAL THINGS WITH SPIRITUAL" (I Cor. 2:13).
"And to this AGREE the words of the prophets; as it is written…" (Acts 15:15).
[C] "These [Bereans]… searched the Scriptures daily, whether those things were SO [Gk: ‘in this way,’ ‘like’] (Acts 17:11).
[D] "AS You have sent Me into the world, EVEN SO have I sent them into the world" (John 17:18, and many, many other such comparisons).
Or do we all Sit at Rays feet and wait on Him to reveal it?
Please dont take this personally, Im just curious , as There is No desire to Rock the Boat .
Ive been Blessed by many writings of Both Men and the by the Input of others Here while sitting in the wings.
Many Thanks
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Well, please remove me from the forums before I too am banned, but please let these scriptures, from the Word of God, stay up.
Mat 26:39 And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jer 25:15 For thus saith the LORD God of Israel unto me; Take the wine cup of this fury at my hand, and cause all the nations, to whom I send thee, to drink it.
Jer 49:12 For thus saith the LORD; Behold, they whose judgment was not to drink of the cup have assuredly drunken; and art thou he that shall altogether go unpunished? thou shalt not go unpunished, but thou shalt surely drink of it.
Mat 20:22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
Mat 20:23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with:
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Luk 22:17 And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and said, Take this, and divide it among yourselves:
1Pe 4:12 Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
Heb 12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
Isa 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
Isa 54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
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Or do we all Sit at Rays feet and wait on Him to reveal it?
I will not even answer this question. Is that the way you really think I/we study and search???
:cry:
Craig
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Well, please remove me from the forums before I too am banned, but please let these scriptures, from the Word of God, stay up.
Why would you say this??
Craig
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People, where does patience come in? My, my....... has this modern world left us w/o that ancient fruit? Can we not just hold our
tongues and study privately, following the requests of mods, giving a bit of respect to the main characters involved and trust that it will all be
resolved or at least discussed in time. It seems way too soon to become
impatient...... if we are asked to let it drop, then just study and wait.....
it is so hard for us all as flesh to do this..... hard for me, but so good for
our character. Please!
JJ
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rocky
Lake of fire is now, some hurt by it, some not???
The wrath of God is now, not only in the future? The lake of fire is now, not only in the future? I see those not being hurt in the second death as happening now, and some are being hurt by the second death now. Is this how u see it?
I do see God's wrath as being now. But this concept of the lake of fire being now, is new to me. I know that our god is a consuming fire and I know that I was baptized with the Holy Ghost and with fire. I also know that the purpose of fire is to purge/cleanse and not torture. So is that the lake of fire??? I don't know, but I'm not opposed to that idea.
parsonssc
I fear that, Is Was and Will Be, is becoming a doctrine unto itself. There is truth to this very compelling and wonderful way of looking at scripture, but you can't pull every scripture out of the air and spritualize it to conform to this truth.
I see some of us here starting to do just this. I pray that we all follow in the real truths of God and not the doctrines that our human natures wish to adhere to.
Please, Please, Please do not take this a me throwing a barb at Mike because that is not my intention at all. This has nothing to do with Ray or Mike's problems, just my own observation.
Very good word Craig.
JJ,
People, where does patience come in? My, my....... has this modern world left us w/o that ancient fruit?
JJ, you've been around long enough to know that these are the very things which produce the fruit of patience. At least in those who keep their hand on the plow. :wink:
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I for one do not want to see people taking sides on way or the other and that is not what Christ would have us to do.
And the greatest commandment is to Love the Lord our God with all our heart and mind and to love our nieghbor as ourselves.
bobby
AMEN.
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I second MERCIE (great name by the way) :wink: Amen Bobby!
Prov 11:17 The merciful man doeth good to his own soul: but he that is cruel troubleth his own flesh.[/u]
Gen 49:5 Simeon and Levi are brethren; instruments of cruelty are "in their" habitations. :shock:
49:6 O my soul, come not thou into their secret; unto their assembly, mine honour, be not thou united: for in their anger they slew a man :shock: and "in their selfwill" they digged down a wall.
The wrath of man "worketh not" the righteousness of God.
Gan 49:7 Cursed be their anger, for "it was fierce"; and their wrath, for it was cruel: I will divide them in Jacob, and scatter them in Israel.
Psalm 71:4 Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.[/u]
Faith worketh by love[/u]
2 Thes 3:2 "that we may be delivered from" unreasonable and wicked men: for "all men" have not faith.[/u] (which worketh by love)
Who then is wicked in this parable?
Mathew 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?[/u]
The wicked do not "understand" but continue to do wickedly. Not walking in love by showing mercy and forgiveness. Forgive us AS WE forgive others. In the parable the Heavenly Father will treat us the same if we "from our hearts" do not forgive our brother from our hearts.
Zech 7:9 Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy and compassions every man to his brother:[/u]
James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.[/u]
Which was the point of the parable
Mathew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.[/u]
Lets OBTAIN :idea:
Daniel
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Great Post Daniel!
And bobby, too!!
HATE!! Carries with it the power of life and death.... as does the tongue (speaking evil of one another, etc) all connected, as I see it. :cry:
Whosoever hateth his brother IS A MURDERER: and ye know that no MURDERER hath eternal life abiding in him.[/list:u]
Not what we usually think of when we think of a "murderer", aye?? :shock:
Oh no, I never "killed" anybody!! 8-[ :oops:
Better to put the darkness behind us and walk as children of LIGHT:
Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord:
walk as children of light:[/list:u]
Blessings,
Chrissie
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Yes hate usually is expressed through and by the tongue.
You can say a hateful word to someone and very close to you and it does cause death. Those words of hate can never be taken back and hateful actions always cause wounds that never really heal.
I have been guilty of it myself and there are things that I wish I would have never said and things that I wish I had never done.
But it is nice to know that LOVE(Christ) can heal!
I Peter 4:8 And above all things have fervent CHARITY(love) amoung yourselves: for CHARITY(love) shall cover the multitude of sins.
bobby
yup;
Pro 10:12 Hatred stirreth up strifes: but love covereth all sins.
Pro 17:9 He that covereth a transgression seeketh love; but he that repeateth a matter separateth [very] friends.
grace
euty
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Amen Bobby Euty and Chrissie! :D
Babylon IS BECOME a HABITATION of CAGED and HATEFUL BIRDS :shock:
Jerm 5:27 AS A CAGE IS "FULL OF BIRDS", so are "THEIR HOUSES" FULL OF DECEIT :shock: therefore they are BECOME GREAT, and waxen rich.
Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and IS BECOME "the habitation" of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and A CAGE of every unclean and HATEFUL BIRD.
Wow, I found this,
Lev 14:50 And he shall KILL the one of the BIRDS "in an earthen vessel" over running water?
Hey lets open a "bird" thread :lol:
Daniel
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Hi Everyone,
Here's a word of wisdom that may have better fit earlier in this thread. Even so, as God's Word it "Is, Was & Will (always) Be", the Truth. :wink:
It is written, Rom 16:20-" And the God of peaceshall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.5216 Amen."
Once Satan steals your peace, he's got ya!
Peace :!:
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Hi and welcome to the forum mannonthecross and you have said a mouthful there!!!!
bobby
Thank you, Bobby & Amen (really, "ain't" it the Truth?!)
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Hi Everyone,
Here's a word of wisdom that may have better fit earlier in this thread. Even so, as God's Word it "Is, Was & Will (always) Be", the Truth. :wink:
It is written, Rom 16:20-" And the God of peaceshall bruise Satan under your feet shortly.The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.5216 Amen."
Once Satan steals your peace, he's got ya!
Peace :!:
AMEN
good news is:-
1Jo 2:12 I write unto you, little children, because your sins are forgiven you for his name's sake.
1Jo 2:13 I write unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I write unto you, young men, because ye have overcome the wicked one. I write unto you, little children, because ye have known the Father.
1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him [that is] from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
1Jo 2:15 Love not the world, neither the things [that are] in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
1Jo 2:16 For all that [is] in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
1Jo 2:17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever
1Jo 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jo 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.
1Jo 5:19 [And] we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness.
1Jo 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, [even] in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
Jhn 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Again the Tongue?
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
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Mercie writes,
Mar 4:17 And have no root in themselves[/b], and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
why?
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love[/u],
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him[/b], and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving
That was beautifully put Mercie,
John 5:42 But I know you, that "ye have not" the love of God in you.
Its the lack of the "love of God" he confronted in the hypocrits. They said they did love God but went about trying to kill Him.
That was great Mercie!
Daniel
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Daniel
A lack of Love it was.
Jhn 7:19 Did not Moses give you the law, and [yet] none of you keepeth the law? Why go ye about to kill me?
Jhn 5:45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
Jhn 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
Maybe another accuser ?
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
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Amen, everybody! The love of God is the light, we have been dragged by God out of darkness and into His glorious light, not that we have done anything to know these things, but that we seek for truth, and God rewards those who seek for truth. The reward is the love that comes from God, not how man sees it, but how God reveals it.
Here is a good Psalm:
(Psa 56:1) To the chief musician. Concerning the silent dove, those far off. Of David, a secret treasure (when the Philistines seized him in Gath). Favor me, O God, for man snuffs me up; all the day fighting oppresses me.
(Psa 56:2) My watchers panted for me all the day; for many are proudly fighting against me.
(Psa 56:3) The day I am afraid I will trust in You.
(Psa 56:4) In God I will praise His Word; in God I have trusted; I will not fear; what will flesh do to me?
(Psa 56:5) All the day they pervert my words; all their thoughts are against me for evil.
(Psa 56:6) They stir up strife; they hide; they observe my footprints as they wait for my soul.
(Psa 56:7) Is escape for them by iniquity? In anger cast down the peoples, O God.
(Psa 56:8) You have counted my wandering; O put my tear in Your bottle; are they not in Your Book?
(Psa 56:9) Then my enemies will turn back in the day I call; this I know, for God is for me.
(Psa 56:10) In God I will praise the Word; in Jehovah I will praise the Word.
(Psa 56:11) In God I have trusted; I will not fear; what will man do to me?
(Psa 56:12) On me, O God, are Your vows; I will render to You thank offerings.
(Psa 56:13) For You have delivered my soul from death. Do You not keep my feet from falling, so that I may walk before God in the light of the living?
Amen,
Gary
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good to the last drop.
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good to the last drop.
:D :D :D :D
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good to the last drop.
:D :D :D :D
amen, amen!!
Chrissie
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:-({|= :-({|=
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:-({|= :-({|=
havent seen that lil guy in a while :P