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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: cheekie3 on October 24, 2017, 04:02:27 AM
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All -
Which Scriptures have been the hardest for us to understand:
2 Peter 3:16 (KJV):
as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
To me, and I still struggle with some aspects of this today - is that the God of The Old Testament appears to extremely harsh and severe, whereas, this same God, in The New Testament, is a caring Loving God.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Hi George,
I believe that 2 Peter 3:16 is referring to the Jews such as Peter who had remained faithful to the old covenant who were the ones who found Paul's teaching hard to be understood. The 12 apostles remained in Jerusalem and continued teaching that Jesus was their prophesied Messiah while Paul taught the New and better covenant.
= = =
Some would say that God is still pretty severe with those who call themselves Jews.
The German Holocaust being the most recent example along with historical examples in 1492 Spain
and other periods of purging and forced conversions to Catholicism.
Plus around the world today , nominal Christians are being slaughtered by the thousands.
Isn't God "letting" this happen?
I think "Western" Judaeo/Christian society is next as soon as God removes His protection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain
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Bob -
Thank you for sharing this; as you raise some very interesting points, which I will try to address, with some references to The Holy Scriptures:
Hi George,
I believe that 2 Peter 3:16 is referring to the Jews such as Peter who had remained faithful to the old covenant who were the ones who found Paul's teaching hard to be understood. The 12 apostles remained in Jerusalem and continued teaching that Jesus was their prophesied Messiah while Paul taught the New and better covenant.
= = =
Some would say that God is still pretty severe with those who call themselves Jews.
The German Holocaust being the most recent example along with historical examples in 1492 Spain
and other periods of purging and forced conversions to Catholicism.
Plus around the world today , nominal Christians are being slaughtered by the thousands.
Isn't God "letting" this happen?
I think "Western" Judaeo/Christian society is next as soon as God removes His protection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain
I agree that this was for the True Israelites; as The New Testament Scriptures declare that the Gentiles were grafted in, from Cornelius a non-Israelite, onwards.
With regards to the Jews - like Ray, I am not convinced that those in the modern State of Israel - are the real Israelites (of both the House of Israel and the House of Judah).
Are not most of the people living in the State of Israel, from the ancient lands of Khazar?
Do not the Jews today follow the teaching of their 'Talmud', and not 'The Old Testament'?
Are those living in the State of Israel in bondage?
Do those people living in the state of Israel fulfill all of Deuteronomy 28:15-68, and has all of this been fulfilled?
Deuteronomy 28:15-68 (KJV):
15 But it shall come to pass, if thou wilt not hearken unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to observe to do all his commandments and his statutes which I command thee this day; that all these curses shall come upon thee, and overtake thee:
16 Cursed shalt thou be in the city, and cursed shalt thou be in the field.
17 Cursed shall be thy basket and thy store.
18 Cursed shall be the fruit of thy body, and the fruit of thy land, the increase of thy kine, and the flocks of thy sheep.
19 Cursed shalt thou be when thou comest in, and cursed shalt thou be when thou goest out.
20 The Lord shall send upon thee cursing, vexation, and rebuke, in all that thou settest thine hand unto for to do, until thou be destroyed, and until thou perish quickly; because of the wickedness of thy doings, whereby thou hast forsaken me.
21 The Lord shall make the pestilence cleave unto thee, until he have consumed thee from off the land, whither thou goest to possess it.
22 The Lord shall smite thee with a consumption, and with a fever, and with an inflammation, and with an extreme burning, and with the sword, and with blasting, and with mildew; and they shall pursue thee until thou perish.
23 And thy heaven that is over thy head shall be brass, and the earth that is under thee shall be iron.
24 The Lord shall make the rain of thy land powder and dust: from heaven shall it come down upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
25 The Lord shall cause thee to be smitten before thine enemies: thou shalt go out one way against them, and flee seven ways before them: and shalt be removed into all the kingdoms of the earth.
26 And thy carcase shall be meat unto all fowls of the air, and unto the beasts of the earth, and no man shall fray them away.
27 The Lord will smite thee with the botch of Egypt, and with the emerods, and with the scab, and with the itch, whereof thou canst not be healed.
28 The Lord shall smite thee with madness, and blindness, and astonishment of heart:
29 and thou shalt grope at noonday, as the blind gropeth in darkness, and thou shalt not prosper in thy ways: and thou shalt be only oppressed and spoiled evermore, and no man shall save thee.
30 Thou shalt betroth a wife, and another man shall lie with her: thou shalt build an house, and thou shalt not dwell therein: thou shalt plant a vineyard, and shalt not gather the grapes thereof.
31 Thine ox shall be slain before thine eyes, and thou shalt not eat thereof: thine a@@ shall be violently taken away from before thy face, and shall not be restored to thee: thy sheep shall be given unto thine enemies, and thou shalt have none to rescue them.
32 Thy sons and thy daughters shall be given unto another people, and thine eyes shall look, and fail with longing for them all the day long: and there shall be no might in thine hand.
33 The fruit of thy land, and all thy labours, shall a nation which thou knowest not eat up; and thou shalt be only oppressed and crushed alway:
34 so that thou shalt be mad for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
35 The Lord shall smite thee in the knees, and in the legs, with a sore botch that cannot be healed, from the sole of thy foot unto the top of thy head.
36 The Lord shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.
37 And thou shalt become an astonishment, a proverb, and a byword, among all nations whither the Lord shall lead thee.
38 Thou shalt carry much seed out into the field, and shalt gather but little in; for the locust shall consume it.
39 Thou shalt plant vineyards, and dress them, but shalt neither drink of the wine, nor gather the grapes; for the worms shall eat them. 40 Thou shalt have olive trees throughout all thy coasts, but thou shalt not anoint thyself with the oil; for thine olive shall cast his fruit.
41 Thou shalt beget sons and daughters, but thou shalt not enjoy them; for they shall go into captivity.
42 All thy trees and fruit of thy land shall the locust consume.
43 The stranger that is within thee shall get up above thee very high; and thou shalt come down very low.
44 He shall lend to thee, and thou shalt not lend to him: he shall be the head, and thou shalt be the tail.
45 Moreover all these curses shall come upon thee, and shall pursue thee, and overtake thee, till thou be destroyed; because thou hearkenedst not unto the voice of the Lord thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which he commanded thee:
46 and they shall be upon thee for a sign and for a wonder, and upon thy seed for ever.
47 Because thou servedst not the Lord thy God with joyfulness, and with gladness of heart, for the abundance of all things;
48 therefore shalt thou serve thine enemies which the Lord shall send against thee, in hunger, and in thirst, and in nakedness, and in want of all things: and he shall put a yoke of iron upon thy neck, until he have destroyed thee.
49 The Lord shall bring a nation against thee from far, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flieth; a nation whose tongue thou shalt not understand;
50 a nation of fierce countenance, which shall not regard the person of the old, nor shew favour to the young:
51 and he shall eat the fruit of thy cattle, and the fruit of thy land, until thou be destroyed: which also shall not leave thee either corn, wine, or oil, or the increase of thy kine, or flocks of thy sheep, until he have destroyed thee.
52 And he shall besiege thee in all thy gates, until thy high and fenced walls come down, wherein thou trustedst, throughout all thy land: and he shall besiege thee in all thy gates throughout all thy land, which the Lord thy God hath given thee.
53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the Lord thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
54 so that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
55 so that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57 and toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.
58 If thou wilt not observe to do all the words of this law that are written in this book, that thou mayest fear this glorious and fearful name, THE LORD THY GOD;
59 then the Lord will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.
60 Moreover he will bring upon thee all the diseases of Egypt, which thou wast afraid of; and they shall cleave unto thee.
61 Also every sickness, and every plague, which is not written in the book of this law, them will the Lord bring upon thee, until thou be destroyed.
62 And ye shall be left few in number, whereas ye were as the stars of heaven for multitude; because thou wouldest not obey the voice of the Lord thy God.
63 And it shall come to pass, that as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you; so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you, and to bring you to nought; and ye shall be plucked from off the land whither thou goest to possess it.
64 And the Lord shall scatter thee among all people, from the one end of the earth even unto the other; and there thou shalt serve other gods, which neither thou nor thy fathers have known, even wood and stone.
65 And among these nations shalt thou find no ease, neither shall the sole of thy foot have rest: but the Lord shall give thee there a trembling heart, and failing of eyes, and sorrow of mind:
66 and thy life shall hang in doubt before thee; and thou shalt fear day and night, and shalt have none assurance of thy life:
67 in the morning thou shalt say, Would God it were even! and at even thou shalt say, Would God it were morning! for the fear of thine heart wherewith thou shalt fear, and for the sight of thine eyes which thou shalt see.
68 And the Lord shall bring thee into Egypt again with ships, by the way whereof I spake unto thee, Thou shalt see it no more again: and there ye shall be sold unto your enemies for bondmen and bondwomen, and no man shall buy you.
Do these people living in the state of Israel fulfill what Luke 21:24 states?
Luke 21:24 (KJV):
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
Is the 'Time of the Gentiles' at an end?
Are not the True Israelites currently scattered to the four corners of the Earth, and their identities not known, even among themselves?
Did Ray not teach that both the Roman Catholic Church, and the orthodox Protestant churches, are not 'His Church'?
Has not the Roman Catholic Church and the Jesuits not committed 'great slaughter', etc?
Were not professional technicians asked to visit the gas chambers; and did they not conclude, that it was impossible for gas chambers to exist in these buildings - or for so many to be gassed to death, and buried, etc?
Did Jesus not say Himself, that He came for 'the lost sheep of The House of Israel'; and was it not after the Ascension of Our Beloved Saviour, that Cornelius a non-Israelite, that The New Testament states, that the 'Wild Olive Tree' were grafted into 'the Natural Olive Tree'?
Does the Most High allow anything - or has He Planned everything from the Beginning, to be as it is, including tragedies, etc?
Is not Our God and Father, a 'Hard Task Master' in one of Jesus' Parables, and is He not also, 'a Consuming Fire'; and did He not declare 'His Curses' in Deuteronomy 28:15-68, for the Israelites, should they not obey His Commandments?
Warmest Regards.
George
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Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
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George,
A lot has been said about the Jews that were killed in the death camps during the war, what are YOU saying in your statement in this post about the gassing that happened over there?
Joel
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Were not professional technicians asked to visit the gas chambers; and did they not conclude, that it was impossible for gas chambers to exist in these buildings - or for so many to be gassed to death, and buried, etc?
George,
A lot has been said about the Jews that were killed in the death camps during the war, what are YOU saying in your statement in this post about the gassing that happened over there?
Joel
Thank you Joel - Too many times when I see a very lengthy post I tend to skim instead of reading carefully.
And George - There are too many topics in this one post. One topic per post please. And I would also like to know what you mean by the above statement.
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Dennis -
Thank you for sharing these enlightening Scriptures of His Truths; and we all know that His Words are Spirit, and they are Life - and all that that Love Him, must Worship Him in Spirit, and in Truth:
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
I know that none of us have all the answers; and are all here to Worship Him by 'obeying His Word' in 'Spirit and in Truth'.
However, these posing questions remain in my heart and mind:
These real Jews, do they not have their being, in Earthen vessels of flesh?
Are they not, either 'the Natural Israelites', or 'the Gentiles grafted into the Natural Olive Tree'?
Has He not determined, to bring the Natural Israelites to jealousy, by 'grafting in the Gentiles'?
Has He not said 'that all Israel will be saved'?
Is 'all Israel' not both the 'Natural Olive Tree', and also the 'Wild Olive Tree grafted into the Natural Olive Tree'?
Will more and more Natural Israelites not be dragged to Him, in this Age of Grace, when 'The Time of The Gentiles' is over?
Is He not currently, restoring the original boundaries of all the Gentile Nations, one by one?
Will He not 'gather His People, from the four corners of the Earth', and 'return them to their promised Natural land'?
Is this gathering 'Spiritual', or will there be a 'Natural state for the True Israelites, on the Earth'?
Are not 'His Elect' gathered from both the True Israelites and the Gentiles; and will they not be 'The New Jerusalem', with 'Spiritual Bodies' Reigning with Christ, on 'the Natural Earth'?
Will not all the Natural Gentile Nations not go up to Jerusalem, to serve Him, to a Natural Land of the Israelites?
Do we not live in 'a Natural World'; and will this Natural World not continue, in the next Age, and the Age after that?
Will there be no 'Natural World', in the next Age; whereby 'He Will Rule the Nations with an Iron Rod, from His Holy Mountain, the New Jerusalem'; and are there not going to be 'Natural People, for Him to Rule over'?
Are we not instructed that 'the Sum of Thy Word, is Truth'; and does this not include both 'The Old Testament' and 'The New Testament' Scriptures'?
This is another set of verses, which Ray did not teach on, as far as I am aware - which I find very hard to understand; could it be, that hidden within these verses, are both the 'True Israelites', and those that perhaps, have taken their identity? Who knows?
Isaiah 28: 10-16 (KJV):
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Joel -
Thank you for your question:
George,
A lot has been said about the Jews that were killed in the death camps during the war, what are YOU saying in your statement in this post about the gassing that happened over there?
Joel
I have researched this, and experts have calculated how many were sopposed to be gassed and buried, over the time these camps were open, and concluded that, it is an impossibility that 6 million could have been killed, over that short period of time, within these small buildings with these small ovens, etc.
Also, the buildings could not keep the gas in, as they were not sealed - and had normal doors.
I know that this is not a subject to discuss on this Forum - and perhaps, we should all do our own research on this, and decide for ourselves, what is true, and what is not true - or at least, what is probable, and what is not possible.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Joel -
Thank you for your question:
George,
A lot has been said about the Jews that were killed in the death camps during the war, what are YOU saying in your statement in this post about the gassing that happened over there?
Joel
I have researched this, and experts have calculated how many were sopposed to be gassed and buried, over the time these camps were open, and concluded that, it is an impossibility that 6 million could have been killed, over that short period of time, within these small buildings with these small ovens, etc.
Also, the buildings could not keep the gas in, as they were not sealed - and had normal doors.
I know that this is not a subject to discuss on this Forum - and perhaps, we should all do our own research on this, and decide for ourselves, what is true, and what is not true - or at least, what is probable, and what is not possible.
Warmest Regards.
George
What a load of crap. Holocaust deniers are nut jobs. Who are these "experts"? I have found that people who give opinions instead of facts always fall back on "experts" to bolster their supposed truths.
Where are the millions of Jews in Europe before WWII if they did not die in the Nazi concentration camps?
On the other hand, forget my question. I do not want to hear more false opinions.
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Hi George,
I believe that 2 Peter 3:16 is referring to the Jews such as Peter who had remained faithful to the old covenant who were the ones who found Paul's teaching hard to be understood. The 12 apostles remained in Jerusalem and continued teaching that Jesus was their prophesied Messiah while Paul taught the New and better covenant.
= = =
Some would say that God is still pretty severe with those who call themselves Jews.
The German Holocaust being the most recent example along with historical examples in 1492 Spain
and other periods of purging and forced conversions to Catholicism.
Plus around the world today , nominal Christians are being slaughtered by the thousands.
Isn't God "letting" this happen?
I think "Western" Judaeo/Christian society is next as soon as God removes His protection.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Spain
I-Bob,
Your assertion that Peter followed the Old Covenant while Paul followed the New is the same false teaching you have stated in the past.
It is the same false teaching of the Concordance Publishing House, which Ray debunked in an article of his.
The Apostles did not teach different Gospels. The Old Covenant is done away. It is for spiritual children and is gone with the wind.
This thread is producing many false teachings, which it was meant to do. Slipping in false teachings with an abundance of words.
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Joel -
Thank you for your question:
George,
A lot has been said about the Jews that were killed in the death camps during the war, what are YOU saying in your statement in this post about the gassing that happened over there?
Joel
I have researched this, and experts have calculated how many were sopposed to be gassed and buried, over the time these camps were open, and concluded that, it is an impossibility that 6 million could have been killed, over that short period of time, within these small buildings with these small ovens, etc.
Also, the buildings could not keep the gas in, as they were not sealed - and had normal doors.
I know that this is not a subject to discuss on this Forum - and perhaps, we should all do our own research on this, and decide for ourselves, what is true, and what is not true - or at least, what is probable, and what is not possible.
Warmest Regards.
George
History is (sometimes) written by the victors to make themselves appear noble, righteous and heroic while demonizing the loser. It isn't always so, but it isn't uncommon for this to be the case. So it isn't ignorant to question claims such as the "6 million" Jews were killed in the concentration camps by the Nazis.
So maybe the 6 million number was inflated (or maybe not). Maybe some were gassed and many more just starved to death in the camps and many were shot execution style.. or are you implying that the holocaust may not have happened at all? What difference would it make if only 5 million Jews died in the camps.. or 4 million? What difference would it make to your point if most of the victims starved to death instead of had been gassed?
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Dennis -
I will keep Posts to one at a time in the future.
Duly noted and accepted.
Were not professional technicians asked to visit the gas chambers; and did they not conclude, that it was impossible for gas chambers to exist in these buildings - or for so many to be gassed to death, and buried, etc?
George,
A lot has been said about the Jews that were killed in the death camps during the war, what are YOU saying in your statement in this post about the gassing that happened over there?
Joel
Thank you Joel - Too many times when I see a very lengthy post I tend to skim instead of reading carefully.
And George - There are too many topics in this one post. One topic per post please. And I would also like to know what you mean by the above statement.
Different scientists have visited these camps, on different occasions; and they concluded that it was not technically possible to gas people within these buildings, because they were not sealed shut - and that the sheer numbers could not have been killed and buried, on such a large scale, within the time frame that 6 million were said to have been killed, even if they were used round the clock.
Warmest Regards.
George
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And "different" scientists have also been proven unfit to comment. Seems there is always somebody with an "alternative" opinion.
This is moving into an area rife with speculation and is not fit for this forum.
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The way I see it; the German war machine was expert at documenting their own atrocities. Many are naive, and misled in underestimating the ability, and capabilities of a man, or a group that's sole purpose is doing evil.
Joel
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Isaiah 28: 10-16 (KJV):
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
George I read verses 15 and 16 and I think about the foundational doctrine of Christianity. All christians believe that because they believe in Jesus Christ that they will not die spiritually nor will they be judged. They've made a covenant with death and the wrath of God won't touch them, so they are taught. It's a lie that they have made their refuge.
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largeli -
Thank you for sharing this point:
Isaiah 28: 10-16 (KJV):
10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
11 for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.
13 But the word of the Lord was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward,
and be broken, and snared, and taken.
14 Wherefore hear the word of the Lord, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.
15 Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:
16 therefore thus saith the Lord God, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.
George I read verses 15 and 16 and I think about the foundational doctrine of Christianity. All christians believe that because they believe in Jesus Christ that they will not die spiritually nor will they be judged. They've made a covenant with death and the wrath of God won't touch them, so they are taught. It's a lie that they have made their refuge.
Perhaps, it is much bigger than that - in that, all 'falsehood', 'lies' and 'deception' will be crushed underfoot by 'a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation' - which is 'God manifested in the flesh', 'The Word of God' and 'The Sword of The Holy Spirit'?
On a side note, I find great comfort to my heart and mind, when I read from the Books of 'Proverbs', and 'the Psalms'; as there are many great 'gems of wisdom, hidden there'.
Warmest Regards.
George
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Ahhh yes. Im sure you're correct, much bigger indeed George..
All the lies, deception and falsehood.. 'The Matrix' basically.
The world of lies we are born into eh?
Precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little there a little.. waking up from the matrix, for His chosen, little by little. (Or for the enemies of the cross the little by little they go deeper and deeper into sleep and deception. To those who have, more will be given. To those who have not, even what they have will be taken.) Kind of like the Israelites being given the promised land little by little instead of all at once.
Exodus 23:20 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.
I don't fully understand but this is just a thought.
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You can look up the european Jewish population census before and after the war and the number of Jews missing is close to 6 million. Were all the scientist and census takers also lying back then?
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maybe the surviving Jews were not too enthusiastic about taking part in a census. You know.. considering the way the previous census had worked out for them under the Germans.. ?
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maybe the surviving Jews were not too enthusiastic about taking part in a census. You know.. considering the way the previous census had worked out for them under the Germans.. ?
Or maybe the many thousands of 1st person accounts are telling the truth:
Jewish Demographics In Warsaw
Year - Number of Jews
1764 - 1,365
1800 - 9,724
1900 - 219,128
1940 - 393,500
1945 - 7,800
https://dbs.bh.org.il/place/poland (https://dbs.bh.org.il/place/poland)
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maybe the surviving Jews were not too enthusiastic about taking part in a census. You know.. considering the way the previous census had worked out for them under the Germans.. ?
Or maybe the many thousands of 1st person accounts are telling the truth:
Jewish Demographics In Warsaw
Year - Number of Jews
1764 - 1,365
1800 - 9,724
1900 - 219,128
1940 - 393,500
1945 - 7,800
https://dbs.bh.org.il/place/poland (https://dbs.bh.org.il/place/poland)
1st person accounts of what? That 6 million Jews were missing from the post WW2 census? No one (unless I'm misunderstanding George's comments) is disputing that Jews were rounded up into concentration camps and killed.
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It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.
Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.
I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.
But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.
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I agree with your assessment John,
And I lump myself in that group.
But I am content knowing that my limitations will allow God
to demonstrate what great things He can do with so little. Luke 18:27
ole Indiana bob
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Then where did all the Jews go? Just a handful went to Israel.
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"Those who are able to see beyond the shadows and lies of their culture will never be understood, let alone believed, by the masses."
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Then where did all the Jews go? Just a handful went to Israel.
Dennis who are you asking this question to? If you're asking me then why don't you point out something that I've said in this thread that you disagree with and we can go from there.
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We lived in Germany for seven years. I've been to Dacheu and Buchenwald. But more importantly I have met a man named Max Manheimer who wore the tatto on his arm and lost his entire family in Dacheu . What does it benefit anyone to doubt him? To what end?
And George , you are " teaching " and you know it. Just say so. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish .
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octoberose -
Noted and accepted.
We lived in Germany for seven years. I've been to Dacheu and Buchenwald. But more importantly I have met a man named Max Manheimer who wore the tatto on his arm and lost his entire family in Dacheu . What does it benefit anyone to doubt him? To what end?
And George , you are " teaching " and you know it. Just say so. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish .
For, and on the record; I stated, that I no longer believe that gas chambers existed, for the reasons I mentioned, and I merely asked that we all do our own research, and draw our own conclusions.
I know the horrors of war, and multitudes suffered, and died, including millions of the Jewish People.
I did not mean to offend anyone, nor try to teach anything, and I am sorry for upsetting Forum Members.
Warmest Regards.
George
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octoberose -
Noted and accepted.
We lived in Germany for seven years. I've been to Dacheu and Buchenwald. But more importantly I have met a man named Max Manheimer who wore the tatto on his arm and lost his entire family in Dacheu . What does it benefit anyone to doubt him? To what end?
And George , you are " teaching " and you know it. Just say so. I'm not sure what you hope to accomplish .
For, and on the record; I stated, that I no longer believe that gas chambers existed, for the reasons I mentioned, and I merely asked that we all do our own research, and draw our own conclusions.
I know the horrors of war, and multitudes suffered, and died, including millions of the Jewish People.
I did not mean to offend anyone, nor try to teach anything, and I am sorry for upsetting Forum Members.
Warmest Regards.
George
New people come to this forum and see this bickering and are turned off and will never return.
George you've been constantly sorry for something for years - It's time for you to move on
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Friend George,
I am meddling a little when I offer the following comments, but I think we can handle it.
I think that when opening a discussion regarding the Jews in Europe and now in Jerusalem that we are getting into a political area which the forum moderators wish to avoid, because of the potential for emotional responses. Keeping in mind the hundreds of new readers of the forum who may misunderstand and not return to learn.
It may be good to share truth from scripture with some folks who are not yet ready for enlightenment, but in the instance of political dialog there is no source authority that can be trusted the way inspired scripture should be.
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There are other forums in which political debate is welcome or reluctantly tolerated.
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The scriptures do lead us to believe that Jerusalem/Israel and its citizens will be in the news in a big way when our Lord returns and there is much speculation about how that will work and who it will affect, but our dialog is best limited to whatever Ray Smith has presented so that casual readers have a written, accessible resource for consideration.
Kindly offered, Indiana bob
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It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.
Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.
I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.
But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.
You concern yourself with the opinions of men.
Will we be judged as individuals? Or as a group.. “lumped together”?
Then why fret over the opinions of men, as to who they lump you together with?
1 Cor 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
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It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.
Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.
I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.
But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.
You concern yourself with the opinions of men.. as does all of the carnal church.
Will we be judged as individuals? Or as a group.. “lumped together”?
Then why fret over the opinions of men, as to who they lump you together with?
1 Cor 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Just remember this works both ways.
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It is shocking to see how ignorant and uneducated some Forum members are.
Brings to mind the Scripture that says not many wise are called.
I do not mind being persecuted for Scriptural Truths.
But being lumped together with really dumb members on non scriptural matters is hard to take.
You concern yourself with the opinions of men.
Will we be judged as individuals? Or as a group.. “lumped together”?
Then why fret over the opinions of men, as to who they lump you together with?
1 Cor 4:3
But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
2 Cor 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.
Matt 12:36
But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
Thanks for the sermon largeli. That much preaching should last me for a while. Maybe I can avoid Christians and Holocaust deniers for at least a year.
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Until this thread, I’d never actually doubted anything pertaining to the holocaust.. and I still have no reason to doubt anything that’s widely accepted in regards to the holocaust.
But, I have a love for truth and that makes me want to hear all sides of a claim. Can’t help it. The desire for truth compels me.
Keeping with the original topic of this thread..
Here’s a scripture Im having a hard time understanding,
2 Thes 2:10
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
The love of the truth.
Is the truth spoken of in this verse, is it only scriptural truth or is it all truth.
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Hi largely,
I looked up 2 Thessalonians and read the chapter your verse came from. It seems to me, since Paul is speaking about the lawless one being revealed and Satan's works, and then goes to those who are perishing Because "they refuse to love the truth and be saved", and then the clincher to me is verse 12 so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.-So, I'm thinking he's talking about a specific truth. But God's Truth is Truth so...
I gotta tell you- I struggle with this. Thessalonians is not apocalyptic scripture the way Revelations is, but here he is talking about a man of lawlessness that sounds very much like a human being who is not you or me who has yet to be revealed. And back in the day before I knew about God ultimately saving all, I would read that verse 10 "They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved" and think Free Will. I would not have known that Jesus came to seek and save the perishing and the saved he is talking about is the next aion, not a forever heaven.
I looked this up in the search and nothing came up but I think we or Ray had spoken about it somewhere.
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2Th 2:3 Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, because that Day will not come unless first comes the falling away, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
2Th 2:4 the one opposing and exalting himself over everything being called God, or object of worship, so as for him "to sit in the temple of God" as God, setting forth himself, that he is God. Dan. 11:36; Eze. 28:2
2Th 2:7 For the mystery of lawlessness already is working, only he is holding back now, until it comes out of the midst.
2Th 2:8 And then "the Lawless One" will be revealed, "whom" "the Lord" "will consume" "by the spirit of His mouth," and will bring to nought by the brightness of His presence. Isa. 11:4
2Th 2:9 His (the Lawless One) coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
2Th 2:11 And because of this, God will send to them a working of error, for them to believe the lie,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged, those not believing the truth, but who have delighted in unrighteousness.
Isa 11:1 And a Shoot goes out from the stump of Jesse, and a Branch will bear fruit out of his roots.
Isa 11:2 And the Spirit of Jehovah shall rest on Him; He will have the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and power, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of Jehovah.
Isa 11:3 And He is made to breathe in the fear of Jehovah. But He shall not judge by the sight of His eyes, nor decide by the hearing of His ears.
Isa 11:4 But He shall judge the poor in righteousness, and shall decide rightly for the meek of the earth. And He shall strike the earth with the rod of His mouth, and He shall cause the wicked to die with the breath of His lip.
Yes, I think it is a quite specific (but broadly experienced) "truth" he is talking about here. If the first few verses of 2 Thessalonians 2 do not now nor ever have applied to you, then I don't know what to think. We don't live in the same spiritual universe.
2Th 2:9 His coming is according to the working of Satan in all power and miraculous signs and lying wonders,
2Th 2:10 and in all deceit of unrighteousness in those being lost, because they did not receive the love of the truth in order for them to be saved.
Where in there is the "receiving the love of the truth" contrasting anything other than those things that preceded that statement, "in order for them to be saved."?
I have thousands of curiosities, and things I don't know. I have multiplied thousands of things I don't even KNOW I don't know. Where in all of those is the "deceit of unrighteousness"? Faulty opinions? Haphazard history? Color Blindness? Do I really need a love of all that kind of "truth" in order to be saved? Sure, its cool to learn new things--provided knowledge doesn't puff up--AND that the "new thing" is better than the old thing. And I reckon I might can be "saved" from all manner of petty ignorance, but so what?!?!?! Ye strain out a gnat and swallow a camel?
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Ray on this verse and others like it.
https://bible-truths.com/lake14.html
Tell me what you think.
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Dave,
Yes Ray understood. The Beast, the Man of Lawlessness, is each and everyone of us. It is Jesus Who saves us by killing this Beast within us, then coming and living within our innermost being, our heart.
That is why we are not saved by our works, but by the Grace of God Who brings about the works of Jesus within us.
John
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I love truth and hate and despise every lie. My faulty opinions?? Well I do not hold very tightly to my opinions because I understand that opinions are not truth. I don’t care much for my own opinions and I don’t want to take them too seriously.
Haphazard history? I stand by what I said in my first comment in this thread. Knowing that history is written by mere men, It’s not ignorant to question any historical claim. History shapes our world view. I try not to hold too tightly to my worldview for this reason.
Color blindness? Funny, I am actually color blind to a degree. Colors are only perceptions.
Jesus is the truth. I want Jesus in every aspect of my life and worldview.
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I've seen people whose "love for the truth" led them directly into a pack of lies. They'd have been better off ignorant, because now they think they see.
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I don't know of anyone who teaches what Ray does in this matter. That is said with amazement and trying to understand it- not criticism. I still don't understand how he came to it. I can read about John standing at the sea, hearing a voice behind him. 666 is the number of mankind, not a man. And the beast is me. I could have read those verses my whole life and not come to the understanding Ray did. I hope I would have eventually noticed a few things such as we will have great tribulation not The Great Tribulation .
From the LOF-
"Let no man [ 'let not any person,' RSV, 'Let no ONE...'] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction] . Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god] , or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Are we to come to the understanding that the verse above is how Everyone eventually will come to know Christ and come to bow before Him when they fall away from worshipping themselves? If so, that makes some kind of sense to me.
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I don't know of anyone who teaches what Ray does in this matter. That is said with amazement and trying to understand it- not criticism. I still don't understand how he came to it. I can read about John standing at the sea, hearing a voice behind him. 666 is the number of mankind, not a man. And the beast is me. I could have read those verses my whole life and not come to the understanding Ray did. I hope I would have eventually noticed a few things such as we will have great tribulation not The Great Tribulation .
From the LOF-
"Let no man [ 'let not any person,' RSV, 'Let no ONE...'] deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a FALLING AWAY first, and that man of sin [Gk: the lawless one] be revealed, the son of perdition [Gk: the one destined for destruction] . Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God [a god] , or that is worshipped; so that he as God sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God"
Are we to come to the understanding that the verse above is how Everyone eventually will come to know Christ and come to bow before Him when they fall away from worshipping themselves? If so, that makes some kind of sense to me.
Ray received his understanding from the Spirit of God as do the very few, the little flock who God wants to understand in this age.
God is not saving the Many at this time, but in the next age, when the Great King returns.
It is why Jesus taught in parables. To keep the Many from understanding the Truth. Their time has not yet come.
Those of us meant to understand, get it when we stand on the sand, and look back and see the Beast come out of the sea, and know we are the Beast because we have experienced this Truth in our lives. Not reading it out of a book, but living it.
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2Th 2:11 And therefore God will be sending them an operation of deception, for them to believe the falsehood,
2Th 2:12 that all may be judged who do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice."
The two main teachings of Ray at B-T are the salvation of all (with the inherent injustice of eternal destruction), and the sovereignty of God (with the fallacy of free-will). BOTH of those are in that passage.
Are we to come to the understanding that the verse above is how Everyone eventually will come to know Christ and come to bow before Him when they fall away from worshipping themselves? If so, that makes some kind of sense to me.
OURSELVES is just one of the things mankind will stop worshiping.
Peter (and all the other disciples) forsook the Lord, Who they loved and Who loved them. The prodigal son left the love of his father.
Paul wrote earlier:
2Th 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
That's what's hard for me to understand. We can't preach the meat of the Gospel to those who think they are doing God a favor, and have Jesus as their personal pocket savior. Ray said the carnal church has not yet experienced this falling away. It's not that they haven't fallen, it's just that they don't know they've fallen. Can you relate? You start well perhaps, as a "baby christian", but before you know it you're corrupted. And whether or not you end up in the pig-pen of the world, you're in the pig-pen of the worldly church, eating what you've been feeding. Naked, without knowing you're naked. Before long, you "do not believe the truth, but delight in injustice"--maybe even the injustice of eternal conscious torment.
Jesus came to save those who are LOST. Some people seem to have only been religiously "lost" before they were religiously "saved". They've got a hard, hard lesson to learn. They won't learn it until they have left their first love and then repent--because you can't repent of something you haven't done. That was Peter (and the others), Paul, the lost sheep, the prodigal son, Ray... First, leave--later, Pentecost, with a death and resurrection in-between.
So for my part, what gospel I can "preach" is to those who HAVE experienced the "falling away". Anything I can tell a carnal christian about it would just be turned into a religious exercise. And it's not a "good thing"...it's an evil that He intends for good. It is as John said...this has to be lived, and once lived, then we can understand (with a little help, like Paul did for the Thessalonians). The GOOD NEWS isn't "if you're a good christian, and do the right things, you can go to heaven".
Does that make sense?
But, yes, this is what has to happen before the "Day of the Lord" happens to you, when the Lord Jesus RETURNS to YOU in Spirit. I have to believe it's the same for every "christian", each in their own order at the consummation. The rest of the world as a whole is not the "many called". It will be better for them in Judgement. But there is no "bad news" in the end. ;D
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Dave just to clarify on your last few sentences..
It will be better for them in judgement.. you’re referring to those who were never called, correct?
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Dave just to clarify on your last few sentences..
It will be better for them in judgement.. you’re referring to those who were never called, correct?
Yes.
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The GOOD NEWS isn't "if you're a good christian, and do the right things, you can go to heaven".
Was that the good news according to your church Dave?
We have had different “church” backgrounds and experiences. The Good News as it was presented in virtually every church I’ve been to is that “you don’t have to be good, and you don’t have to do the right things.. just believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness and you can go to heaven.” People accept this “good news” and continue to live their lives as if they will never be judged. We were taught that our belief in Jesus meant we will bypass the judgment.
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No, that's pretty much the "gospel" of my church, too. The "one" I provided was just for contrast.
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I've seen people whose "love for the truth" led them directly into a pack of lies. They'd have been better off ignorant, because now they think they see.
But this is a necessary part of the process for the chosen few.. isn’t it?
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Sorry for switching back and forth between topics..
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I put "love of the truth" in quotations not because I was quoting scripture or you. I put it there because I don't believe for a second that everyone who claims to have a love for the truth actually DOES. Some seem to have a love for some kind of gnostic "wisdom", and/or a pet doctrine, and/or controversy, and/or spiritual pride, and/or your basic pride of life, lust of the flesh, lust of the eyes. Besides, some people LEAVE the truth when they are looking for it. I've both seen it and lived it. You'll have to have already decided if this description fits you. Hopefully, it does not, and I did not post it believing it did.
I've already said I don't think that verse is relevant to every fact, factoid, or viewpoint on every subject. While I might be wrong, I can't see a human being ever having the "truth" on every subject in any depth that is not just as likely to be error at worst, or falling-short at best. This is a huge and complicated world. John 1:1-3 is my world-view. The "delusion" that Paul is talking about here is a spiritual delusion, not (simply) a factual one. I don't believe God sent a strongly working "lack-of-education".
FALLING AWAY is a necessary part of the process for the chosen few. But nobody will know they have until they look back. Spiritually RETURNING is also a necessary part of the process.
I don't encourage people to do the worst they can in order that the best happens. He has already decided in whom the best will happen first. I do try to encourage those in whom the worst they can do has already happened that this is not the end of the story.
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Let me put my mod hat on for a minute on a broader subject.
This forum certainly doesn't exist to thwart anybody's search for truth on any subject. At the same time, it doesn't exist to aide anybody in their search for truth on any subject not covered in the materials. And the forum itself (and especially its members) did not come here to be either allies with, or audience for every line of alleged truth. I would never have joined if that was expected of me. Expect blow-back, sooner or later, with or without diplomacy. :)
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Sorry for switching back and forth between topics..
Not a problem. Sometimes things morph into other topics and that's okay. But things can get difficult when the original post contains several topics. Better to create new topics for each unrelated question/item.
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The GOOD NEWS isn't "if you're a good christian, and do the right things, you can go to heaven".
Was that the good news according to your church Dave?
We have had different “church” backgrounds and experiences. The Good News as it was presented in virtually every church I’ve been to is that “you don’t have to be good, and you don’t have to do the right things.. just believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness and you can go to heaven.” People accept this “good news” and continue to live their lives as if they will never be judged. We were taught that our belief in Jesus meant we will bypass the judgment.
OH, that was the church we went to for 38 years. They would not tell you that, but it's certainly the way they acted. You know the whole, show me your faith without works and I'll show you mine with works?
Even the demons believe and shutter. Yeah, that was us. Years of it.
A lot of wisdom in all that you wrote Dave, so thank you. Personal Pocket Savior - good one- sad but true.
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Good posts Dave. Clears up a lot.
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I can't see a human being ever having the "truth" on every subject in any depth that is not just as likely to be error at worst, or falling-short at best. This is a huge and complicated world. John 1:1-3 is my world-view. The "delusion" that Paul is talking about here is a spiritual delusion, not (simply) a factual one. I don't believe God sent a strongly working "lack-of-education".
I wonder if a love of truth would cause one to know less instead of more?
Presuming to nothing except Christ crucified? Or presuming to know nothing except what the Holy Spirit has revealed to you?
Personally, I am more and more sure of scriptural/spiritual things and less and less sure of almost everything else.
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Here's something from Paul that bears on this part of the discussion. Though he's talking in context about "eating and drinking", surely there is wisdom here for those "eating" and "drinking" the knowledge available in the world.
Rom 14:22 (KJV) Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
(I'd look that up in several translations, because there is a difference in "tone" between them. Here's my stab at it).
You have your own belief on a matter? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he that doesn't prove himself faulty in what he approves.
Get happy. Be happy. Don't be unhappy any more than you have to be.
Maybe even without knowing it, this is a part of the wisdom in the rules and purpose of the forum. I wasn't there.
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Here's something from Paul that bears on this part of the discussion. Though he's talking in context about "eating and drinking", surely there is wisdom here for those "eating" and "drinking" the knowledge available in the world.
Rom 14:22 (KJV) Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
(I'd look that up in several translations, because there is a difference in "tone" between them. Here's my stab at it).
You have your own belief on a matter? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he that doesn't prove himself faulty in what he approves.
Get happy. Be happy. Don't be unhappy any more than you have to be.
Maybe even without knowing it, this is a part of the wisdom in the rules and purpose of the forum. I wasn't there.
Dave these words mean more to me than you know.
Thanks.
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I go with John on this. Too many heresies are creeping into this forum. I though preaching is not allowed. I have been reading Ray's material since 2002 and can honestly say the majority here have not even read half of what Ray shared (what a shame). May God direct our steps to the Truth.
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I go with John on this. Too many heresies are creeping into this forum. I though preaching is not allowed. I have been reading Ray's material since 2002 and can honestly say the majority here have not even read half of what Ray shared (what a shame). May God direct our steps to the Truth.
What heresy?