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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: Joey Porter on April 30, 2006, 04:11:20 PM
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I believe I have seen in the writings of both Ray and Mike that they both believe Christ was created. But if this is so, then He would be a "creature" or part of creation, would He not? And in what way could we logically exclude Him from a passage such as from Romans 8?
Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that John chapter 1 states:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and I find it interesting that the very first words spoken by God, at least that are documented in the scriptures, are "Let there be light."
So we know that God created the heavens and the earth, but His first words spoken were "let there be light." So, is there a difference between being "created" and being "spoken'' into existence?
However, if this phrase "Let there be light" really is Christ being spoken into existence, that poses another problem. John 1:3 says:
3All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
According to Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the earth before He spoke the words "Let there be light." So, Christ must have existed before the heavens and the earth were created, because the heavens and the eart are certainly a part of all things, and they were created before God said "Let there be light," and John says all things were created by Christ.
Does anyone have any insight to offer here? I just have a hard time accepting that Christ was "created" because then there would be no way that we could separate Him from the creation that was subjected to frustration as spoken of in Romans 8.
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Something else to point out is that Jesus Christ is the beginning and the end, and if it was "In the beginning" that the heavens and the earth were created, Christ must have existed before the words "Let there be light" were spoken.
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the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
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Rev 3:14
And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
Col 1:15
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Now Gen 1:1
Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth
Look at the word beginning here.
H7225
ראשׁית
rê'shîyth
ray-sheeth'
From the same as H7218; the first, in place, time, order or rank (specifically a firstfruit): - beginning, chief (-est), first (-fruits, part, time), principal thing.
Christ is called the Firstfruit...
1Co 15:20 (REV)
But, now, hath Christ been raised from among the dead,-a firstfruit of them who have fallen asleep;
So in Christ God created the heavens and the earth.
1Co 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 7 Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge...
Deedle :D
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I believe I have seen in the writings of both Ray and Mike that they both believe Christ was created. But if this is so, then He would be a "creature" or part of creation, would He not? And in what way could we logically exclude Him from a passage such as from Romans 8?
Romans 8
19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
We know that John chapter 1 states:
1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jesus is the Word of God, and I find it interesting that the very first words spoken by God, at least that are documented in the scriptures, are "Let there be light."
So we know that God created the heavens and the earth, but His first words spoken were "let there be light." So, is there a difference between being "created" and being "spoken'' into existence?
However, if this phrase "Let there be light" really is Christ being spoken into existence, that poses another problem. John 1:3 says:
3All things were made by Him; and without Him was not any thing made that was made.
According to Genesis 1, God created the heavens and the earth before He spoke the words "Let there be light." So, Christ must have existed before the heavens and the earth were created, because the heavens and the eart are certainly a part of all things, and they were created before God said "Let there be light," and John says all things were created by Christ.
Does anyone have any insight to offer here? I just have a hard time accepting that Christ was "created" because then there would be no way that we could separate Him from the creation that was subjected to frustration as spoken of in Romans 8.
To comment on John 1:1:
The Greek is "᾿Εν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος."
Spoken, it sounds something like, "en archay ane ho logos kai ho logos ane pros ton theon kai theos ane ho logos."
I'd like to point out the definite article, ton. John says that Jesus was with the God, thus distinguishing Jesus from the Father.
Moreover, John says:
"οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν Θεόν" (Joh 1:2), which sounds like, "outos ane en archay pros ton theon."
Yet again John refers to the father as ton theon or the God. He, however, refers to Jesus as, simply, theos, rather than ton theos.
In other words, God the Father is the God or ton theon, whereas Jesus is plainly theos.
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the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
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Thanks to all for the other replies. I don't have time to respond now, but later I can look at them and respond.
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the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14, KJV).
I see it this way. God created Jesus, gave Jesus his throne, Jesus created us, Jesus talked to the saints resulting in the Old Testament, Jesus came in the flesh, Jesus declared the Father, the Internet was created, Ray made a website, here we are.
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the english word "by" in john 1:3 is a terrible translation
it's the greek dia and should be rendered "through"
Joh 1:3 All things came into being through Him, and without Him not even one thing came into being that has come into being.
from there it's on to
1Co 8:6 but to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him, and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and we by Him.
and also
Joh 12:44 Now Jesus cries and said, "He who is believing in Me is not believing in Me, but in Him Who sends Me."
and
Joh 16:27 for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came out from God.
Joh 16:28 I came out from the Father and have come into the world; I leave the world again and go to the Father.
1Co 15:28 But when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who has subjected all things to Him, that God may be all things in all.
f
I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
"And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;" (Rev 3:14, KJV).
I see it this way. God created Jesus, gave Jesus his throne, Jesus created us, Jesus talked to the saints resulting in the Old Testament, Jesus came in the flesh, Jesus declared the Father, the Internet was created, Ray made a website, here we are.
rofl, nice.
I see it as, God the FATHER Created everything, out from Him came Jesus, through which EVERYTHING IS, and FOR EVERYTHING is Him.
"One for all and all for one?"
I don't see any problem with anything in the bible if Jesus is the FIRSTFRUITS of those created. He is part of God, so He is GODLIKE we however are created IN GODS IMAGE, or rather being created In His image, so one day we too shall be apart of the "Firstfruits" from which Christ was the FIRST Of these.
I could be wrong, i dont know lol, but i don't see any problems here.
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I checked the word "by" in Colossians 1:16 and it appears that word also could have been translated more appropriately some other way - perhaps "in" or "within."
But is Christ part of "creation?" I'm not saying that He is the eternally existing second member of a 3 person Godhead, but was He created? If so, that would pose problems with verses such as
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Here, the worship of created things is clearly condemned.
Hebrews 12
27The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken—that is, created things—so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
The scriptures also say that Christ is the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. But look at what is written in James:
James 1
18He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.
If Christ has been "created," it wouldn't make sense to say that we are a kind of firstfruits of all that He created.
So, what can we find in the scriptures to show that Christ came into existence without being created?
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
Well in the begining God the father is the UNCREATED CREATOR. Jesus Christ is the First of everything, so Through HIM was EVERYTHING. So in essance is He not then the Creator of everything also?
James 1
18He[God the Father?] chose to give us birth through the word of truth[Jesus CHrist?], that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all He[God the Father? Jesus Christ?] created.
Again God the Father created everything Through Jesus Christ and For Jesus Christ.
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The sons of God are also created beings, and yet the world is awaiting their appearing. So just being created isn't the only point here. Christ was created in a different order than ordinary human beings. I will look into this more.
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Christ was begotten physically different than any other human that ever lived. Yet, He was born as we are, He was baptized in the Holy Spirit as we are, He suffered for the truth as we do, eventually physically died for the truth, in which we do too.
This is the Son of God, the same as us, who knows by experience the weaknesses of humans. Yet, by the miraculous conception from God, knew no sin. This is what makes Him the Christ, our Lord and Saviour. Who bore the sins of the world to atone for the sins we all have committed and not only us, but for the whole world.
Of course, all here know these things, but it is important to also learn from the fiery trials and tribulations that God the Father put us through to drag us to the truth. They put the word in its proper setting, which is in the spirit. We all come out of the sea of humanity, then to the earthly, and finally to the heavenly (New Jerusalem).
Except, Jesus was the first creation, who was before all, then in the Fathers own time humbled Himself and became as one of us to proclaim the Father. By His manner of conception, speaks loudly of the newborn experience when we are born again (begotten) of God. He is in the creating (creation) business. It's what He does and has the power and will to accomplish it.
First the physical and then the spiritual, first darkness then the day.
Gen 1:1
IN A BEGINNING Created by the Elohim were the heavens and the earth.
Gen 1:2
Yet the earth became a chaos and vacant, and darkness was on the surface of the submerged chaos. Yet the spirit of the Elohim is vibrating over the surface of the water.
Gen 1:3
And saying is the Elohim, "Become light!" And it is becoming light.
Gen 1:4
And seeing is the Elohim the light, that it is good. And separating is the Elohim between the light and the darkness.
Gen 1:5
And calling is the Elohim the light "day," and the darkness He calls "night." And coming is it to be evening and coming to be morning, day one.
In day one, darkness came first. Through our own experience we can see this is true. We were all in darkness before the light. Even us who are truthful, when in the light know we can do nothing in ourselves. It is all to the glory of God, who will be all in all. Creaton or creating is the plan of God, to bring about many sons and daughters. It all started with Jesus and will end with Him. He is the alpha and the omega. Until the time comes for Jesus to hand it over to God the Father. Then the saying will be said, death where is your victory?
For us to be born again, something must die. Jesus when He humbled Himself and put on flesh, died to the glory He had with the Father and became as one of us. I think that is why it is vital to be truly born again and follow in His footsteps. We must be like Him, for the day will come, when we shall see Him as He is, for like He was in the world, so are we.
I know, I know, rambling on again. Cant help it! From where I live, hellfire, self righteousness, tradition are very, very deeply rooted in the majority. Truly, they love the darkness more than the light. Amazing how true the word of God is! Wow! When one butts against the religious system, persecution follows quickly. I will start another thread to see the persecution of other brethren and sisters. I think it would be a comfort to us all, of not being alone.
God bless,
Gary
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So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?" I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.
I believe we should seek a final, ultimate answer for this issue, an answer that has no weaknesses and is biblically sound, so that we can
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. (1 Peter 3:15)
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So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?" I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.
I believe we should seek a final, ultimate answer for this issue, an answer that has no weaknesses and is biblically sound, so that we can
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. (1 Peter 3:15)
Here the answer, and the only one you will most likely get.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word.
Joh 1:2 This was in the beginning toward God.
Joh 1:3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being.
Joh 1:4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men.
Joh 1:5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not.
The only answer to any thing you really need in the bible is.
Joh 3:16 For thus God loves the world, so that He gives His only-begotten Son, that everyone who is believing in Him should not be perishing, but may be having life eonian. Everything else is open to doubt and question
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Hello everyone. I have a question regarding the translation of Rev. 3:14. In this topic, it seems like you guys are using the KJV translation of the verse. I just want to know: is that an accurate translation, because some of the other Bibles translate it differently. Before I continue, though, let me just say, regardless of the correct translation/meaning of this verse, I believe that Christ was indeed a created being.
Anyway, I double-checked the verse in the New American Standard and the New Living Translation bibles (the only others we have, aside from the King James/New King James bibles), and found that the NLT says that Jesus is "the ruler of God's creation", while the NASB says the same as the KJV/NKJV, except it says "Beginning" could be translated as "Source" or "Origin".
I looked it up in Strong's, and got the "beginning", "origin", and "ruler" definitions (among a few others). So, how are we supposed to interpret that verse? I see what everyone's saying about Jesus being created by the Father, but if "origin" and "ruler" are acceptable words to use in place of "beginning", couldn't it be read as Jesus being the one who created everything (except Himself, of course).
I e-mailed this same question to Mike, but it seems he misunderstood my beliefs about Jesus being created. The third time I wrote to him on this subject, re-explaining my beliefs and question (I think he just skimmed my e-mail; that, or sometimes I get a bit too wordy and repetitive :wink: ), I haven't heard back from him. It's probably one of those things where you're not supposed to continue a probably pointless argument after the second admonition.
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Well, the way I look at it is:
We have no scripture that clearly and plainly states "Jesus Christ was created by God."
We have a few scriptures that show that we are not to worship any created thing or being.
We have a boatload of scriptures that show that Christ is and will continue to be in subordination to the Father.
Christ is called the Word of God. Words are spoken. Creatures and creations are formed.
We know that Christ and the Father are One, and yet, the Father is greater than Christ.
The big problem I have with the trinity is not so much that the doctrine considers Christ as eternally existing. It has to do with the fact that the doctrine claims that He is equal to the Father, which goes against Christ's own words.
Many time in the NT, we see things that David said centuries prior, actually being said by Christ, such as "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?" and "They hated me without reason."
Well, here is something to consider, from Proverbs chapter 8. This is metaphorically taken as "wisdom," a female, speaking. But I wonder if this might not be another case of the words of Christ again appearing in the OT.
Proverbs 8
22 "The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works,
before his deeds of old;
23 I was appointed from eternity,
from the beginning, before the world began.
24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth,
when there were no springs abounding with water;
25 before the mountains were settled in place,
before the hills, I was given birth,
26 before he made the earth or its fields
or any of the dust of the world.
27 I was there when he set the heavens in place,
when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,
28 when he established the clouds above
and fixed securely the fountains of the deep,
29 when he gave the sea its boundary
so the waters would not overstep his command,
and when he marked out the foundations of the earth.
30 Then I was the craftsman at his side.
I was filled with delight day after day,
rejoicing always in his presence,
31 rejoicing in his whole world
and delighting in mankind.
I don't think we should assume that these words apply to Christ, but it's definitely some Truth worth seeking.
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Hello everyone. I have a question regarding the translation of Rev. 3:14. In this topic, it seems like you guys are using the KJV translation of the verse. I just want to know: is that an accurate translation, because some of the other Bibles translate it differently. Before I continue, though, let me just say, regardless of the correct translation/meaning of this verse, I believe that Christ was indeed a created being.
Anyway, I double-checked the verse in the New American Standard and the New Living Translation bibles (the only others we have, aside from the King James/New King James bibles), and found that the NLT says that Jesus is "the ruler of God's creation", while the NASB says the same as the KJV/NKJV, except it says "Beginning" could be translated as "Source" or "Origin".
I looked it up in Strong's, and got the "beginning", "origin", and "ruler" definitions (among a few others). So, how are we supposed to interpret that verse? I see what everyone's saying about Jesus being created by the Father, but if "origin" and "ruler" are acceptable words to use in place of "beginning", couldn't it be read as Jesus being the one who created everything (except Himself, of course).
I e-mailed this same question to Mike, but it seems he misunderstood my beliefs about Jesus being created. The third time I wrote to him on this subject, re-explaining my beliefs and question (I think he just skimmed my e-mail; that, or sometimes I get a bit too wordy and repetitive :wink: ), I haven't heard back from him. It's probably one of those things where you're not supposed to continue a probably pointless argument after the second admonition.
I realized this too. I checked in the Vulgate to see how Jerome (spelling?) interpreted it and he indeed rendered it with a Latin word strictly meaning "beginning." Correct me if I'm wrong.
"et angelo Laodiciae ecclesiae scribe haec dicit Amen testis fidelis et verus qui est principium creaturae Dei" (Rev 3:14, Vulgate).
It's a touchy subject, though, considering, as far as I know, we only have exactly one or two witnesses bluntly saying Christ was created.
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Perhaps rereading this might clear up some questions, it did for me;
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
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In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
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In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.
"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).
Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."
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i found this
***no teaching links***
on Mikes site
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Bobby, I agree, it seems clear enough to me that Christ our Lord and Savior is subject to the Father and came after the Father spoke Him into existence.
There are many treasures in Scripture that do not jump out and hit you between the eyes, they must be carefully mined, I think Ray did a very compelling piece on this subject.
This is part of the article from Ray I referenced earlier in the thread;
(Ray's quote in brackets)
[Is Jesus Christ an equal part of this "ONE God?" NO, He is not. Let God’s Word tell us. We don’t need to speculate and theorize. Here is Who and What Jesus Christ is, He is the "one LORD." This is not hard. It is only hard for those who wrestle and twist Scripture to their own destruction (II Peter 3:16). John 8:5-6 makes the following very clear:
This Scripture tells us that "ALL IS OUT OF" GOD (the FATHER).
And this Scripture tells us that "ALL IS THROUGH" Jesus Christ.
God the Father is the first cause of all and ALL IS OUT GOD, even Jesus Christ is "OUT of God."
"...I [Jesus] came OUT from God. I CAME OUT FROM the FATHER..." John 16:27-28.
Now if Jesus came out from the trinity, why doesn’t the Scripture say so? He didn’t come out of the trinity and He didn’t come out of the holy spirit, but HE DID COME, "...OUT FROM THE FATHER!"
And after Jesus Christ came OUT from the Father, ALL ELSE came THROUGH Jesus Christ,
"Who [Jesus Christ] is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature, for in Him is ALL CREATED, that in the heavens and that on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created THROUGH Him and FOR Him, and He is BEFORE all, and all has its cohesion in Him" Col. 1: 14-17.
Nowhere do we read that God came out from Christ! No, Christ came OUT FROM THE FATHER and all else was created THROUGH Jesus Christ. There is no trinity here!
Jesus Christ is not the SUPREME DEITY. Christ is not the originator of all. Christ is "the Lord." He is the Son of God. He is the IMAGE of the invisible God. He is the Mediator,
For there is ONE God, and ONE Mediator OF God and mankind, a MAN Christ Jesus..." I Tim. 2:5.
As I said before, one cannot be both "of" something or someone and at the same time "be" that something or someone. There is certainly no trilateral, triune, trinity of God here!
Jesus Christ said,
"...I am going to the Father, for the Father is GREATER than I" (John 14:28.
Where do we read that Christ is GREATER than the Father? There is no trinity in this verse!
And again,
"Now, whenever ALL may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself [Jesus Christ] also SHALL BE SUBJECTED TO HIM [God the Father] Who subjects all to Him, that GOD may be All in all"
Where do we read that someday God the Father will be SUBJECT to Christ? There is no trinity in these Biblical truths.
And again,
"Now I want you to be aware that the Head of every man is Christ, yet the head of the woman is the man, yet the Head of Christ IS GOD" I Cor. 11:3.
Where do we ever read in Scripture that Christ is the Head of God?
There is another profound statement in the Scriptures that PROVES CONCLUSIVELY that Jesus Christ is not part of a trinity, but is now and always will be, under the Headship of His Father. Here it is:
"...that the GOD OF OUR LORD Jesus Christ, the FATHER..." Eph. 1:17.
There it is--Jesus Christ HAS A "GOD!" Paul wrote this and all of the above Scriptures AFTER Jesus Christ was resurrected and restored to His previous GLORIES in God. And in His glorified state, Jesus Christ is STILL subjected to HIS GOD! Who wants to be the first blasphemer to even suggest that God the Father "has a God?"!!! But Jesus Christ, DOES have a God! Notice the following:
Eph. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
Col. 1:3: "We are thanking the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
I Pet. 1:3: "Blessed be the God and Father OF our Lord Jesus Christ"
And remember that these statements concerning Jesus Christ "having a God" were made long after His resurrection and restoration back to His former glories. Today, our Lord STILL HAS A GOD! And need I repeat the fact that the God and Father of Jesus Christ DOES NOT HAVE A GOD?! And someone out there still thinks God is a equilateral trinity?
There are many more Scriptures that show the distinction between God the Father’s office of supreme deity of the universe and that of His Son and Image, Jesus Christ the Lord and Mediator.]
I also found this in searching the scriptures, it may be referenced in another portion of Ray's paper but either way it is germane to this issue;
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten3439 of the Father, full of grace and truth.
I think we have become so conditioned to seeing this word "begotten" only used in reference to Jesus physical (in the flesh) birth and life that it is easy to miss the spiritual message, the spiritual truth of Him and His relationship to the Father
G3439
μονογενής
monogenēs
mon-og-en-ace
From G3441 and G1096; only born, that is, sole: - only (begotten, child).
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.
Joh 5:19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.
Joh 5:20 For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and he will show him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.
The Father is going to show the Son greater works? Our Lord is still learning from the Father?
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So then, is the consensus that Christ has not always existed from eternity past, and yet, He was not really "created?" I believe we need to have a firm answer on this because I have seen that argument used (we are not to worship created things, etc) when attempts to refute the trinity are rebutted.
It seems that Christ is/was/will be through the Father's will, the tool to accomplish creation and administer final judgement and rule to the end of the kingdom. Only the Father knows when that kingdom will end.
Based on all the scripture quoted throughout, it also seems obvious from scripture quoted that we are to honor Christ. Would it be idolatrous to worship him as well? Christ is the Lord of all but he taught us through the Lord's prayer to pray to the Father. I don't recall anywhere in scripture I've read where Christ told us to worship himself as well as the Father.
What do y'all think?
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And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God
Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed [are] they that have not seen, and [yet] have believed
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon [God], and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.
Rev 5:12 Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.
Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, [be] unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Mat 21:9 And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed [is] he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest.
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, [who is] the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
Rom 15:7 Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.
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In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.
"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).
Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."
I believe Christ's relationship to God is as Eve's relationship to Adam. Eve came out of Adam, but was not created by Adam.
Again, if we say Christ was created, there is just no way that we can separate Him from the "all creation" spoken of in Romans chapter 8. If He was created, He is a part of creation, correct?
This reminds me of a debate I recently had with someone about the origins of satan. This person insisted that lucifer was created as a perfect angel and then he rebelled and fell. I showed him the scripture about the devil being a murder from the beginning. My counterpart said something similar to "well, that doesn't mean he was a murderer from the time he was created, but he became a murder before God started creation."
I said "how can you say there was a creature before God started creation?!"
It doesn't make sense to say God created someone before He started creation. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that Christ is a created being and yet He is somehow not included in the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8.
Let us not be like the rest of the Christian world and just brush aside these little scriptural holes in our arguments, holding onto something that is not conclusively taught in the Word, lest our lampstand also be removed from its place.
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In that paper, Ray states that Christ came out from God (as Eve came out from Adam. Adam did not create Eve, but she came out from him). But Ray does not specifically state, at least that I saw, that Christ was created by God. Nor do the scriptures. Nightmare S made a good point in that we don't have two clear witnesses in the scriptures stating that Christ is a created being. There is clearly some uncertainty about the meanings of these certain passages.
I know that I have read in Mike's writings that he believes that Christ was actually created, as he teaches here, http://www.*not-allowed*.com/whythebible.php , but I myself will not make that claim. I see a difference between being "spoken," or "coming out from," and being created. Surely Christ is not groaning, as in pains of childbirth, waiting to be liberated from His bondage and decay. (Romans 8:19-22)
In fact, the more I consider this, the more I hope that Mike will come to change his view on this issue. I realize it may just be semantics, but I don't think we can be too careful when dealing with the Words of God.
What's the difference between coming out of God or being created by God? God created man and woman... he just did it a different way for Eve by pulling her out of Adam.
"And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man" (Gen 2:22, KJV).
Eve came out of Adam... but God still "made a woman."
I believe Christ's relationship to God is as Eve's relationship to Adam. Eve came out of Adam, but was not created by Adam.
Again, if we say Christ was created, there is just no way that we can separate Him from the "all creation" spoken of in Romans chapter 8. If He was created, He is a part of creation, correct?
This reminds me of a debate I recently had with someone about the origins of satan. This person insisted that lucifer was created as a perfect angel and then he rebelled and fell. I showed him the scripture about the devil being a murder from the beginning. My counterpart said something similar to "well, that doesn't mean he was a murderer from the time he was created, but he became a murder before God started creation."
I said "how can you say there was a creature before God started creation?!"
It doesn't make sense to say God created someone before He started creation. Likewise, it doesn't make sense to say that Christ is a created being and yet He is somehow not included in the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8.
Let us not be like the rest of the Christian world and just brush aside these little scriptural holes in our arguments, holding onto something that is not conclusively taught in the Word, lest our lampstand also be removed from its place.
Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
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Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.
Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.
Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear. There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
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Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.
Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.
Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear. There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
The "Creator" is Christ, remember? He created us.
PS. Glad to see you're working hard to find the Truth.
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Ever consider that the "all creation" spoken of in Romans 8 is all of Christ's creation, therefore not counting Christ? If I (like Christ) created some things those things would be all of my creation, but nevertheless, I was still created by sexual reproduction.
I can see your point, but again, that would be adding to scripture and making extra biblical assumptions in that particular case.
Once again, this is not the only problematic passage of scripture posed against the idea that Christ was created.
Hebrews 1:6
6And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship Him."
Romans 1
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
We can still scripturally refute the trinity doctrine without having to add to the scriptures or go overboard in places where this issue is not clear. There is plenty of scripture to show that Christ and the Father are not eternally existing co-equal members of a 3 person trinity.
The "Creator" is Christ, remember? He created us.
PS. Glad to see you're working hard to find the Truth.
God has put it in me to settle for nothing less than the truth.
I'm going to have to seek this out more, because I thought there were some posts earlier in this thread that showed that we were not actually created by Christ, but through Him.
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Lord Christ proceeded directly from the Father and declared Him. The Word was with God and the Word was God and the same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him, and without Him was not anything made that was made. No man has ever seen God, the Son that proceeded from the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, ( And we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father), full of grace and truth. This is why Christ had not sin, Gods Word is Truth and no darkness is in Him at all. Just as Gods Spirit is part of Him, so is the Son (His Word). These three are One. Most of this comes from the Gospel of John, the beloved disciple of Christ. Revelations is very hard to understand if you dont accept this fact.
So I believe that Christ was not created, but was always with God just as the Holy Spirit, they both proceeded directly from the Father. Since God is existence and has always been, the same is true with Lord Christ and the Spirit. Is not God eternal?
Peace be unto you and may God bless you.
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JoshuaDavid,
Please read and respect the Forum Rules before making any more posts.
Thank you,
Joe
Dennis Vogel
Site Admin
Joined: 14 Mar 2006
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Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2006 8:48 am Post subject: Please read this before posting.
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