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=> General Discussions => Topic started by: winner08 on May 20, 2008, 04:30:07 AM
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Hello everyone. My friend and I were discussing the Holy Spirit. She believes the Holy Spirit, Jesus and the Father are one. I said no. Then I said the Holy Spirit is God's power. I don't know if that's correct. Then I just was reading ray's teaching on payer. Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what we should prayfor as we ought,but the Spirit (Himself)makes intercession for us. The King James calls the Holy Spirit HIMSELF. What does that mean? HIMSELF. Does this mean the HOLY SPIRIT is an entity? Like God or Jesus?A separate being. #1 God, #2 Jesus and #3 The Holy Spirit? I always thought of the Holy Spirit being a Spirit, God's power. That he imparts with our human spirit so that we may know these truths of God. Anyways, all help is appreciated.
Thanks Darren
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This is from Is God a Closed TRINITY or an Open FAMILY?
http://bible-truths.com/trinity.html
WHO, OR WHAT IS THE HOLY SPIRIT?
Jesus told His disciples in John 16:7:
"It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will NOT COME UNTO YOU; but if I depart, I will SEND HIM unto you."
Is this "comforter" the third God of a trinity? Let us see Who this Comforter really is! Didn’t you ever wonder why this Comforter could not come until Christ departed? The comforter does not come until Christ departs to the Father, because the comforter IS THE SON returning in the form of "spirit," "holy spirit." Jesus is saying to him,
"I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one is coming to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).
"Now, whenever the consoler [comforter] which I shall be sending you from the Father..."
Notice that Christ sends the comforter from the Father and what Jesus instructs. And notice that it does not involve a third person of a fabled trinity:
"Yet whenever that may be coming--the spirit of truth [Jesus said that HE is the Truth]--it will be guiding you in to all the truth, for it will NOT be speaking from itself [it is NOT A GOD], but whatsoever it should be hearing [from Whom sent it] will it be speaking, and of what is coming will it be informing you. That will be glorifying ME, seeing that of MINE will it be getting, and informing you. All, whatever the Father has, is MINE. THEREFORE I said to you that OF MINE IS IT GETTING, AND WILL BE INFORMING YOU." (John 16:13-15).
This is not hard to understand. The spirit of Truth is Christ. The comforter is Christ. The spirit will be speaking TO the disciples THROUGH Christ’s spirit which is His because the Father gave this spirit TO HIM! There’s no trinity here.
Jesus said:
"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).
Now notice how clear Jesus makes this. Who or What is this spirit, holy spirit, holy ghost, spirit of truth, comforter? Is it really the third person of a triune God? Let Jesus Himself answer:
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER. THE GREEK PROVES THAT CHRIST IS THE COMFORTER!
In the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
HERE IS PROOF POSITIVE THAT JESUS CHRIST IS THE "PARAKLEETOS!"
Isn’t is just amazing what we can learn when we just read and truth of God’s Word instead of the strange and unscriptural teaching of theologians?
No, God is not a trinity. Yes, God is a family. We can be members (Sons) of His Family, Brothers with Christ. What a marvelous plan God is bring about. Here then is the Gospel to all nations and all peoples everywhere:
"For since, in fact, through a man [Adam] came death, through a Man [Jesus Christ], also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, THUS ALSO, in Christ, shall ALL be vivified [given immortal life]. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ’s in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to HIS GOD AND FATHER, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power... The last enemy is being abolished: DEATH... then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be ALL IN ALL" (I Cor. 15:21-28).
These are from email.
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,6881.msg54902.html#msg54902
Dear Anner: Jesus Christ was "conceived by the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 1:20). You say that the Holy Spirit is a person. That is unscriptural. If the Holy Spirit is a person, and Jesus was conceived BY THAT PERSON called the Holy Spirit, then Jesus would be "the Son OF THE HOLY SPIRIT." But Jesus is nowhere called the Son of the Holy Spirit, but He is called "the Son OF THE FATHER" (II John 1:3). Every little school boy in the street knows that whoever conceives a child in a mother's womb IS THE FATHER of that child when it is born! But not Christians, no, not Christians--Christians believe that one man can conceive a child and then when it is born it is the SON OF A DIFFERENT PERSON. Give me a break. This is just one of the unscriptural foolish contradictions with the pagan theory of a triune god. I will continue to believe the Scriptures.
God be with you,
Ray
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,3514.0.html
Dear Charles:
Jesus is the Personification of the Holy Spirit (His SPIRIT FATHER living IN Him). Therefore, the Person Jesus is the "He and the Him," not the Spirit of God in Him. God the Father OWNS, if you will, His OWN Spirit. It belongs TO Him. IT is HIS. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT OWN GOD THE FATHER. Can you see and understand that? God HAS a spirit. The Holy Spirit DOES NOT HAVE A GOD, therefore, it is an IT, and not a HE or a HIM. I have explained this many dozens of times on our site, but you are the second person today to ask this same kind of question. It is hard to rid ourselves of the Christian pagan doctrines of the Church.
God be with you,
Ray
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If you notice in the KJV it says "ITself" - I believe this to be the correct rendering. However, using "Himself" would just be personifying the Father's Spirit anyway, so it doesn't really matter if it is "Himself" or "Itself". It is the power of God / spirit of God that "makes intersession for us".
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Yes jerreye: That's what I stated in my post. The King James Bible refers to The Holy Spirit as HIMSELF. If I understand M.G. The Holy Spirit is Jesus Christ (HIMSELF). I mean Jesus told the disciples after I'm going I will send the comforter. After Jesus goes back up to His Father He will send the comforter. So can't send them the comforter because He was still alive with His disciples. SEND being the word. I wonder if I understand M.G.
Darren
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I must admit that it confuses me also, Darren.
The part about the Father being spirit and also having a spirit goes right over my head. And now Jesus is spirit and shares the Father's spirit is also hard for me to understand. We have a spirit that gives us life and also the Spirit of God. That's a lot of spirits, lol.
I don't quite have this in my little box of understanding yet.
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Yes M.G. That's alot of spirits. Since Jesus Christ had to wait untill He returned to His Father before He could send the Holy Spirit back to his diciples I figure Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I could be wrong.
Darren
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This is what Ray said.
"JESUS CHRIST BY MEANS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT OF GOD WHICH HIS FATHER GAVE TO HIM IS THE COMFORTER"
I think these verses fit with this.
John 17:20-22
20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. 22I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one:
Ray said somewhere that the Father and Jesus are one because they both share the Father's spirit which I assumed was the holy spirit, but I'm not sure. I put it together that Jesus came as the comforter by means of that shared Holy Spirit. If we have that holy spirit within us then we have a deposit and not the fullness of the spirit yet.
2 Corinthians 5:4-6
4For while we are in this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be unclothed but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. 5Now it is God who has made us for this very purpose and has given us the Spirit as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.
6Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord.
That's how I pieced it together and it might be wrong.
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The "spirit" to me is simply like electric energy. The Father IS Spirit and He uses that very spirit to give physical life to us, the animals, etc etc. It's the same spirit (power) that impregnated Mary with Jesus. It isn't that there are "many spirits" (i.e. - many BEINGS at work), but rather one universal spirit that has countless functions, such as giving life, light, knowledge, power and understanding. The Father gave His spirit (power) to His Son, His angels and us. That spirit can do ANYTHING. He gives us a portion of that spirit in this life. He will give us the fullness of that spirit in the resurrection. That's how I see it.
Sorry for rambling :)
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Hey Jerreye,
That makes a lot of sense to me. Thanks for sharing that.
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This is from the trasnscript 'WHO AND WHAT IS JESUS? & WHO IS HIS FATHER?'
http://forums.bible-truths.com/index.php/topic,4472.0.html ----
Eph 1:3 “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ…”
Phi 1:2 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”
Gal 1:3 “Grace to you and peace from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ,”
There is no Holy Spirit. Not that the Holy Spirit is nothing or of no consequence, it’s just not a person.
Jesus Christ and God the Father ARE the Holy Spirit! Jesus Christ is that Spirit!
John 16:7 “… I will send him(the Comforter) to you.” v. 15 “… He shall take of Mine, and shall show it unto you.”
What is He going to take of Christ? His Spirit. Where did Christ get that Spirit? From God the Father. But He is going to take of Christ, because it’s going to be the personality of Christ, see. Paul didn’t say, I’m crucified with God, nevertheless I live, yet not I, but the FATHER lives in me. No, it’s, “I have been crucified with CHRIST, nevertheless I live; yet not I, but CHRIST lives in me.” (Gal 2:20)
But see it’s the personality of Christ, that is the spirit that lives in us. And that spirit comes from God. So we can call it God’s Holy Spirit, even though it’s channeled through Christ. Jehovah /Elohim, God the Father(Elohim), you know.
v
v
Jesus Christ IS THE GOD OF THE OLD TESTAMENT!
He is THE GOD OF THE BIBLE!
Jesus Christ is the ONLY REVELATION OF GOD THAT WE HAVE.
Even the Holy Spirit we all have comes from God THROUGH Jesus Christ.
Jesus is that Comforter, that Spirit.
Our Saviour and our Brother.
The Son of God.
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I too am putting together these the little bit and pieces, trying to wrap my mind around the idea of what the Spirit is all about :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Yes M.G. That's alot of spirits. Since Jesus Christ had to wait untill He returned to His Father before He could send the Holy Spirit back to his diciples I figure Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I could be wrong.
Darren
Hello Darren,
Consider the fact that if the holy spirit was a third entity equal with the Son and the Father and God itself, than why when Christ mentioned His relationship with the Father did He never once mention the holy spirit? If after all, it is as important as the church makes it out to be, that it is a god itself than should not Christ have mentioned it? OOPS? How about paul in all his opening letters to those he was writting. How did He open?
1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Holy spirit? WOOPS! Guess paul was a heretic? Haha. I speak as a fool! :)
Here's a parable from Christ. Notice the LACK OF the HOLY SPIRIT in this parable? Yet it describes Christs relationship with His Father the One God.
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
Could not the holy spirit have been the rain that waters the vine [Christ] or perhaps the dirt that the vine is planted in?
No holy spirit! :(
Anyway, we know that the holy spirit is Jesus Christ because the greek proves it. Ray shows this.
Jesus said:
"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
Ray demonstrates here that the Holy spirit is indeed Christ in us by means of His Fathers spirit by using the greek to do it. Pay attention closely.
the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
I pray this has helped any of you who are struggling with understanding of God's holy spirit!
God bless and love to you all,
Alex
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Yes Alex. First let me say plainly that I DO NOT believe in a trinity. I also agree that if were so Jesus would have mention it. Just so theres no misunderstanding I do not believe in the trinity. I do believe in what Jesus Christ taught.
Darren
PS thanks Kat and Alex.
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no problem Stevenator :)
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Yes M.G. That's alot of spirits. Since Jesus Christ had to wait untill He returned to His Father before He could send the Holy Spirit back to his diciples I figure Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are one in the same. I could be wrong.
Darren
Hello Darren,
Consider the fact that if the holy spirit was a third entity equal with the Son and the Father and God itself, than why when Christ mentioned His relationship with the Father did He never once mention the holy spirit? If after all, it is as important as the church makes it out to be, that it is a god itself than should not Christ have mentioned it? OOPS? How about paul in all his opening letters to those he was writting. How did He open?
1 Corinthians 1:3 Grace and peace to you from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
Holy spirit? WOOPS! Guess paul was a heretic? Haha. I speak as a fool! :)
Here's a parable from Christ. Notice the LACK OF the HOLY SPIRIT in this parable? Yet it describes Christs relationship with His Father the One God.
"I am the true Grapevine, and My father is the Farmer... I am the Grapevine. You are the branches" (John 15:1 & 5).
Could not the holy spirit have been the rain that waters the vine [Christ] or perhaps the dirt that the vine is planted in?
No holy spirit! :(
Anyway, we know that the holy spirit is Jesus Christ because the greek proves it. Ray shows this.
Jesus said:
"I will NOT leave you bereaved [comfortless], I am coming to you [in the form of the comforter and spirit of truth]" (Jn 14:18).
"IN THAT DAY [the day when the comforter comes] you shall know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I IN YOU" (Jn 14:20).
"Now the consoler [comforter], THE HOLY SPIRIT, which the Father will be sending IN MY NAME, that will be teaching you all, and reminding you of all that I said to you" (Jn 14:26).
"I am going, and I AM COMING TO YOU" (Jn. 14:27).
Ray demonstrates here that the Holy spirit is indeed Christ in us by means of His Fathers spirit by using the greek to do it. Pay attention closely.
the Greek, the "comforter" or consoler is translated from parakleetos. Now, is there any Scriptural proof that Jesus Christ is called "parakleetos?" Yes there is. In I John 2:1 we read:
"And if anyone should be sinning, we have an Entreater with the Father, Jesus Christ, the Just."
In the King James it says we have an "advocate" [with a small "a"]. King James ALWAYS capitalizes the Greek word "parakleetos," so why don’t they capitalize it here? You see, "advocate" or a better translation "Entreater" is translated from the GREEK WORD "parakleetos!"
I pray this has helped any of you who are struggling with understanding of God's holy spirit!
God bless and love to you all,
Alex
Hi! Brothers and Sisters.
I do notice with some alarm that the Holy Spirit is being referred to in small caps. I would just like to remind everyone that we are indeed not taking about a separate entity or the spirit of a created being but the very Spirit of our God and as such should be given due respect. Forgive me if I'm wrong but it grinds my very innards when I see such, unintentional though it be, irreverence. God the Father and God the Son two separate entities, but the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of our God, Father and Son , ONE GOD. To me the very essence of GOD. Please forgive me for this if I'm wrong. I expect this from Babylon but not from God's chosen.
God bless.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8
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Sorry Roy, but I disagree with you on this. Not saying I'm right or you are wrong, I just don't feel this way.
I can talk of His spirit, God's spirit etc. and don't think I am belittling God at all.
What about the mind of God, should it be the Mind of God? Should it be House of God or house of God? the Hand of God or hand of God?
I think you at least understand where I'm going with this. I don't want to debate this with you as I stated I may be wrong but if so it is a fault that lies between me and the Father.
Craig
PS I would like to add if I was referring to "spirit" as a proper noun in reference to God I would capitalize it. Such as I was led by the Spirit, or the Spirit is strong here etc. But if I said I was led by the spirit of God I would not capitalize.
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Sorry Roy, but I disagree with you on this. Not saying I'm right or you are wrong, I just don't feel this way.
I can talk of His spirit, God's spirit etc. and don't think I am belittling God at all.
What about the mind of God, should it be the Mind of God? Should it be House of God or house of God? the Hand of God or hand of God?
I think you at least understand where I'm going with this. I don't want to debate this with you as I stated I may be wrong but if so it is a fault that lies between me and the Father.
Craig
Hi! Craig
I agree,brother, it's a case between each person and the Father. Problem settled.
God bless you.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK "The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love." 1Jn.4:8
PS I would like to add if I was referring to "spirit" as a proper noun in reference to God I would capitalize it. Such as I was led by the Spirit, or the Spirit is strong here etc. But if I said I was led by the spirit of God I would not capitalize.
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I had believed the Holy Spirit was the breath of God that gives life.
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I had believed the Holy Spirit was the breath of God that gives life.
No, I don't think so because even animals have the breath of God or as some call it the spirit of life.
Remember, the OT patriaches did not have the Holy Spirit but obviously had the breath of life from God.
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The "spirit" to me is simply like electric energy. The Father IS Spirit and He uses that very spirit to give physical life to us, the animals, etc etc. It's the same spirit (power) that impregnated Mary with Jesus. It isn't that there are "many spirits" (i.e. - many BEINGS at work), but rather one universal spirit that has countless functions, such as giving life, light, knowledge, power and understanding. The Father gave His spirit (power) to His Son, His angels and us. That spirit can do ANYTHING. He gives us a portion of that spirit in this life. He will give us the fullness of that spirit in the resurrection. That's how I see it.
Sorry for rambling :)
Hi! jerreye
As Craig says it's a matter between each individual and the Father and that is how it should rest. The point I was making was this, God gives the breath of life to all His living creation, we humans also have that breath that makes us living beings. But now we have an additional Spirit the Spirit of the Father Himself which makes a big difference. It is this Spirit that is referred to as the Holy Spirit and as such demands due honour and respect from His children. “ A son honors his father, and a servant his master. Then if I am a father, where is My honor? And if I am a master, where is My respect?’ says the Lord of hosts to you, O priests who despise My name. But you say, ‘ How have we despised Your name?’" (Mal.1:6).
God bless you my brother and help us in our walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Roy I don't know if it right or wrong but I think I have always capitalize the Holy Spirit. I think it's just ingrained in me as I grew up in my early yrs. down south. We were taught always use Mr. and miss or Mrs. in front of an elder name, a sign of respect. Being the Holy spirit is of God and of Christ I never thought of it being any other way. the Holy Spirit it just automatic.
Thanks Darren
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Roy I don't know if it right or wrong but I think I have always capitalize the Holy Spirit. I think it's just ingrained in me as I grew up in my early yrs. down south. We were taught always use Mr. and miss or Mrs. in front of an elder name, a sign of respect. Being the Holy spirit is of God and of Christ I never thought of it being any other way. the Holy Spirit it just automatic.
Thanks Darren
Hi! Darren
Great stuff brother, I'm delighted you see it in the same way as I do, because when all is said and done it is our Almighty God's Spirit we are talking about and it is no more trouble to capitalize His name than it is to put it in lower case. You grew up right my brother, you grew up right now keep it up:
"Hear, my son, your father’s instruction And do not forsake your mother’s teaching; Indeed, they are a graceful wreath to your head And ornaments about your neck. My son, if sinners entice you, Do not consent. If they say, “Come with us, Let us lie in wait for blood, Let us ambush the innocent without cause; Let us swallow them alive like Sheol, Even whole, as those who go down to the pit; We will find all kinds of precious wealth, We will fill our houses with spoil; Throw in your lot with us, We shall all have one purse, My son, do not walk in the way with them. Keep your feet from their path." (Pro.1:8-15)
You are a credit to your mum and dad and all glory to God. Lovely to learn that all the youth of this evil world haven't succumbed to its temptations. (http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/howdypardner.gif)
God bless you my brother in our walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Hi Roy,
Thanks for the message :) I guess we should consider Paul's point on this..."Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.". I believe that the Holy Spirit is that same spirit that God used to give mankind and animals physical life. As I was saying, I believe this spirit has multiple (endless) functions. It is ALL the spirit OF God.
As for spiritual understanding/knowledge/baptism by fire etc, it is from that same spirit, just a different function OF that spirit (power). This is what I am convinced of.
Eph 4:3-6 "There is ONE body and ONE Spirit...ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism..."
Blessing to you Brother!
Jeremy
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Hi Roy,
Thanks for the message :) I guess we should consider Paul's point on this..."Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.". I believe that the Holy Spirit is that same spirit that God used to give mankind and animals physical life. As I was saying, I believe this spirit has multiple (endless) functions. It is ALL the spirit OF God.
As for spiritual understanding/knowledge/baptism by fire etc, it is from that same spirit, just a different function OF that spirit (power). This is what I am convinced of.
Eph 4:3-6 "There is ONE body and ONE Spirit...ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism..."
Blessing to you Brother!
Jeremy
Hi! Brother Jeremy
Great Biblical name, your mum and dad chose well.
Now to our point of discussion. If what you say is true then why was the Holy Spirit of God given at Pentecost if they already had the Spirit. I believe that there is a great deal of difference between the breath of life which all living beings receive from God, in order to become alive, and God's Personal Spirit. We cannot and must not equate God's Spirit with the spirit of the lowly creatures like ourselves. This is my point and like Darren just starting out on life it has been with me for the past 87 years and will see me out. All glory to God. Amen!
Brother Jeremy give your Father and His Son their due honour and respect, after all it is His Spirit that now dwells within us that distinguishes us from the rest of mankind and nothing else. If it were not for His Spirit we could not claim to be SEPARATE. The world and Babylon have not got that honour. Praise God! Those who are His chosen have two spirits within them, the human carnal spirit- and God's Personal Spiritual Spirit, if there be such a thing, just to clarify a point of difference between carnal and Spiritual.
Be it right or wrong I could not bring myself to think and act any different. My God is my ALL.
God bless you my brother in our walk in Christ. (http://i292.photobucket.com/albums/mm5/catzgfx/water-reflections/WR002.gif)
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Hi Roy,
I think you may be misunderstanding me just a smidgen :) When I say it was the SAME SPIRIT that gives life to animals (and all physical life), I mean it all came from the ONE spirit OF GOD (remember, the spirit has MANY FUNCTIONS - this is the KEY I am talking about). I certainly do give the Father and His Son due respect and just because I believe that all these things come from that ONE Spirit of God does not mean that I have not given the Father and the Son due respect. When He says He has given US the "spirit OF truth", is this not the same spirit OF God that gave life to us physically? "TRUTH" is just another function of that spirit. God simply chooses to give this aspect OF His spirit to the FEW (in this age).
Just because God gave animals physical life with His power (spirit), does not mean that He ALSO gave animals spiritual TRUTH. See what I mean? I think we may actually be on the same page, it is just that we think a little bit differently :)
At any rate, I think we can move on from this in agreement that it is the SPIRIT that gives life and that spirit is the spirit OF God!
God bless!
Jeremy
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Agreed Jeremy and thank you for that excellent point...different aspects of the same spirit. Thanks again
Marques
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Hi Jeremy,
When I say it was the SAME SPIRIT that gives life to animals (and all physical life), I mean it all came from the ONE spirit OF GOD (remember, the spirit has MANY FUNCTIONS - this is the KEY I am talking about).
I understand where you are coming from, all being the same spirit, but with different functions. But I am looking at how the Scriptures use this word as "spirits."
We have in Hebrews "Father of spirits" implying there is more than one spirit.
Heb 12:9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?
In Romans we have where "the Spirit of God" is spoken of separately from "our spirit," this would also imply more than one Spirit.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:16 The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God,
Then there is this in Revelations about "the seven Spirits of God" and I'm not real clear on this one, but it does indicate more than one spirit.
Rev 4:5 And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God.
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
We know "all things are from God" (1 Cor. 11:12), so to say it's the same because it came from God could apply to everything, even "unclean spirits," mentioned many times in the NT.
When the Scriptures speak of the "same spirit," it is always speaking of the Believers who have been given the Holy Spirit.
1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts, but the same Spirit.
v. 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
v. 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same Spirit,
v. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
2Co 4:13 And since we have the same spirit of faith, according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
2Co 12:18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
This may all be a matter of semantics, as we may all be trying to say the same thing but just saying it in different ways. But we all need to say the same thing, so as to understand each other :)
mercy, peace and love
Kat
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Hi Kat,
Thank you for those scriptures :)
I certainly believe that there are "many" spirits, in that sense. We are considered a "spirit". Angels are "spirits". However, everything about our "spirit" came from the ONE SOURCE, which is God's spirit (or spirit OF God). The "seven spirits" in Revelation, I believe, is symbolic of His completeness, as we know that "7" is a symbolic number of completeness. This, to me, would symbolize all of the methods/functions/doings/workings etc of His Spirit.
There are many spirits out there, but the source of everyones "spirit" comes from that SINGLE source, and that is the ONE spirit OF God. This is what I mean by ONE spirit.
I'll quote that verse again:
Eph 4:3-6 "There is ONE body [of Christ] and ONE Spirit [of which come ALL "spirits", good works, life, etc, etc.]...ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism..."
I also believe that these verses which you gave are perfect in showing this:
1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts [many different Gifts], but the same [ONE] Spirit.
v. 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
v. 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings [another function OF that spirit] by the same Spirit,
v. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
2Co 4:13 And since we have the same spirit of faith ["faith" being yet another function OF that spirit, which He gives to whom He wills], according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
2Co 12:18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
This is my personal conviction. 8)
God Bless,
Jeremy
PS: I think you are right, Kat, we may be saying the same thing, it is just that we may think a bit differently.
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Hi Kat,
Thank you for those scriptures :)
I certainly believe that there are "many" spirits, in that sense. We are considered a "spirit". Angels are "spirits". However, everything about our "spirit" came from the ONE SOURCE, which is God's spirit (or spirit OF God). The "seven spirits" in Revelation, I believe, is symbolic of His completeness, as we know that "7" is a symbolic number of completeness. This, to me, would symbolize all of the methods/functions/doings/workings etc of His Spirit.
There are many spirits out there, but the source of everyones "spirit" comes from that SINGLE source, and that is the ONE spirit OF God. This is what I mean by ONE spirit.
I'll quote that verse again:
Eph 4:3-6 "There is ONE body [of Christ] and ONE Spirit [of which come ALL "spirits", good works, life, etc, etc.]...ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism..."
I also believe that these verses which you gave are perfect in showing this:
1Co 12:4 There are diversities of gifts [many different Gifts], but the same [ONE] Spirit.
v. 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit,
v. 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings [another function OF that spirit] by the same Spirit,
v. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as He wills.
2Co 4:13 And since we have the same spirit of faith ["faith" being yet another function OF that spirit, which He gives to whom He wills], according to what is written, "I believed and therefore I spoke," we also believe and therefore speak,
2Co 12:18 I urged Titus, and sent our brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not walk in the same spirit? Did we not walk in the same steps?
This is my personal conviction. 8)
God Bless,
Jeremy
PS: I think you are right, Kat, we may be saying the same thing, it is just that we may think a bit differently.
Hi! Jeremy And Kath.
When all is said and done I think we are all speaking the same language. I didn't mean any disrespect to you Jeremy, forgive me if it came over as such. My main concern was with direct reference to the Spirit of the Father and Son. It was meant in this sense that on occasion I have noticed he with reference to Jesus and sometimes, not often mind you, father with reference to the Father. It is often in such cases that the Holy Spirit is referred to as holy spirit.
I do believe that Craig's solution is the best way out. Each one to their own conscience and then leave it for the Father to decide, right or wrong.
This is not an idol of my heart, but if it is then I like it very much and will not try to get rid of it because I love my Father and His Son and I can see no Scripture that denies me that privilege, if you do find one please let me know and I will accept immediately.
Thanks for your input, it has been very helpful indeed in many areas of my thinking. (http://i280.photobucket.com/albums/kk165/Roy87monis/bestfriend.gif)
God bless you in your walk in Christ.
Love in Christ Jesus.
Roy UK
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Hi Roy, I think I agree with you in that we are basically speaking the same language. And don't worry, I definitely know you didn't mean any disrespect! :)
God Bless you,
Jeremy